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(NPR)   "Hey bro, it seems the tech industry needs to fix its image of having a sexist "brogrammer" culture"   (npr.org) divider line 194
    More: Interesting, venture funding, manufacturing, sex ratio  
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2986 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Sep 2013 at 12:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-13 12:04:50 PM  
I worked in environments that were 98% female (Health Care) and 90% male (engineering).

Working in an environment with mostly females was interesting because I had a cubical hidden in a corner where they forgot I was. My observation was that when (female employees believe that) men aren't around -women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do.
 
2013-09-13 12:26:58 PM  
Yeah, one only needs to read the comments on any sort of tech site to know that sexism is pervasive, approved of, and stupid within the industry.  Seeing nerds, of all people, pretend to be "alpha male" because they mistreat women is hilarious in a depressing way.
 
2013-09-13 12:27:13 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: men aren't around -women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do


And when women are around, certain classes of men behave in ways that are far more sexist. I think that's the real problem. Nobody cares if you're sexist when nobody's looking, but the instant your behavior impacts others, that's a problem.
 
2013-09-13 12:28:53 PM  

ikanreed: Seeing nerds, of all people, pretend to be "alpha male" because they mistreat women is hilarious in a depressing way.


The first time I heard somebody tell me I was "beta as fark", I had to sit down and really reanalyze my life. I asked myself- did I really want to have any contact with that sort of idiot? The answer is no, but apparently I can't kill them.
 
2013-09-13 12:29:39 PM  

t3knomanser: Because People in power are Stupid: men aren't around -women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do

And when women are around, certain classes of men behave in ways that are far more sexist. I think that's the real problem. Nobody cares if you're sexist when nobody's looking, but the instant your behavior impacts others, that's a problem.


He was saying it was a minor problem for him, but you can tell from the way he described it, he'd never go through the public humiliation of bringing a hostile work environment complaint up.

The part a lot of people forget is that women also find that process humiliating.
 
2013-09-13 12:30:16 PM  
I'm having a hard time taking Rachel Sklar seriously when it seems like she's going way out of her way to be offended.

She's basically complaining that men act brofully when not around women.  BFD.

And there seems to be a lot of fabricated outrage that there aren't more women in the tech sector.  Like it's some big problem that has to be solved.  If people aren't interested in a field, why put so much effort into attracting them?  What problem is solved by attracting more women to IT/engineering?

I hear a lot of women complain about the "problem" but I've never heard a reason why it's a problem in the first place.
 
2013-09-13 12:37:26 PM  

t3knomanser: And when women are around, certain classes of men behave in ways that are far more sexist. I think that's the real problem. Nobody cares if you're sexist when nobody's looking, but the instant your behavior impacts others, that's a problem.


When I was working at the hospital, one of my female colleagues said,  in no uncertain terms - that I shouldn't be working there because employment at the hospital was 'for women' not men.

I'm not saying this is the same or as extreme as "real" sexual harassment however, my experiences at a large engineering firm was that -sexual harassment was viewed as something that interfered with work and hence was looked down upon because it violated the cultural work ethic of the institution. That is not to say, that there weren't sexist comments occasionally made about someone outside of the organization; It is just that within the organization such comments were viewed as disruptive.
 
2013-09-13 12:39:13 PM  

t3knomanser: ikanreed: Seeing nerds, of all people, pretend to be "alpha male" because they mistreat women is hilarious in a depressing way.

The first time I heard somebody tell me I was "beta as fark", I had to sit down and really reanalyze my life. I asked myself- did I really want to have any contact with that sort of idiot? The answer is no, but apparently I can't kill them.


animal-world.com 
But they're king of the fish world!
 
2013-09-13 12:39:59 PM  

Honest Bender: I'm having a hard time taking Rachel Sklar seriously when it seems like she's going way out of her way to be offended.


Let's be honest, Honest. You wouldn't take her seriously no matter what.
 
2013-09-13 12:40:32 PM  
 
2013-09-13 12:41:56 PM  

Honest Bender: I'm having a hard time taking Rachel Sklar seriously when it seems like she's going way out of her way to be offended.

She's basically complaining that men act brofully when not around women.  BFD.

And there seems to be a lot of fabricated outrage that there aren't more women in the tech sector.  Like it's some big problem that has to be solved.  If people aren't interested in a field, why put so much effort into attracting them?  What problem is solved by attracting more women to IT/engineering?

I hear a lot of women complain about the "problem" but I've never heard a reason why it's a problem in the first place.


Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.
 
2013-09-13 12:43:40 PM  
FTFA: The tech industry's sometimes sexist "brogrammer" culture came into focus at least twice this week , making it as good a time as any to highlight the running conversation about how to constructively change the systemic, entrenched issues that allow for offensive apps like Titstare, which was presented at a tech industry hackathon.

Interesting.  I've only ever heard of this "bropgrammer" culture twice... both were this week...
 
2013-09-13 12:43:50 PM  

ramblinwreck: Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.


A beautiful illustration of the problem women face.
 
2013-09-13 12:44:51 PM  
Sexism? In MY software engineering department?

Not on my watch.

*smacks female coworker on the ass*

I SAID GET ME A SANDWICH, TOOTS. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WHILE CODING THIS DATA WRITING PROGRAM, STARVE?
 
2013-09-13 12:45:47 PM  

t3knomanser: Because People in power are Stupid: men aren't around -women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do

And when women are around, certain classes of men behave in ways that are far more sexist. I think that's the real problem. Nobody cares if you're sexist when nobody's looking, but the instant your behavior impacts others, that's a problem.


Apparently you have no experience being a man hanging around only men.  We are FAR more controlled when women ARE around.  Actually, that's why women feel the need to insert themselves into traditionally male spaces.  The innate desire to control perceived "bad behavior."
 
2013-09-13 12:46:01 PM  

stonicus: FTFA: The tech industry's sometimes sexist "brogrammer" culture came into focus at least twice this week , making it as good a time as any to highlight the running conversation about how to constructively change the systemic, entrenched issues that allow for offensive apps like Titstare, which was presented at a tech industry hackathon.

Interesting.  I've only ever heard of this "bropgrammer" culture twice... both were this week...


I first saw it referring to frat dudes who are learning programming because they want to make money.
 
2013-09-13 12:46:15 PM  
Whats wrong with being sexy?
 
2013-09-13 12:46:15 PM  
Question.

Are women not drawn to these careers because of the perceived sexism, the lack of role models, what?

Do we force women into these roles, driving them towards a career they might hate?  I had someone try to drive me to chemical engineering because I like chemistry and the pay was good, and goddamn I started to hate the coursework.  I'm much happier as a software dev.

I am not in a position to see all the resumes that come through, but we've hired women in the past as software developers, and the other offices have several women programmers and engineers. 

Granted, writing software for industrial systems puts you in contact with some of the most bigoted, racist, sexist, assholes in the world (AKA, the low information blue collar employees of our customers), so that reputation might be part of why we haven't as many women working in the technical aspects of our line of work.  We've lost men that have quit due to not being able to deal with racist assholes that still call some machinery the n-word.

Corporate has hired some more women engineers recently, but they were Russian and Canadian.
My company is pretty tone deaf on that issue though.  It's a boy's club.  For Christmas one year they got us camo ball caps with the company logo.  Regular green/brown/black camo for the guys, and pink/black camo for the women.  The women in my office were a bit pissed.
 
2013-09-13 12:46:55 PM  

StopLurkListen: http://femalesoftwareeng.tumblr.com/


The dumb image macros make this so much worse.  A straight text listing of terrible things would have a better impact.
 
2013-09-13 12:46:58 PM  
More accurately: journalists need to fix their "man bites dog" attitude. And need to stop taking much notice of "female community leaders", often not actually women working in tech but PR-driven types looking for opportunities to sell various diversity services.

Last time I heard a woman in a team upset by a sexist comment? At least 5 years ago. Bear in mind, I work in a lot of small team, often for 3 or 4 months at a time. The idea that sexism and "brogrammers" are pervasive in tech are just ridiculous. Yes, there's some teams full of jerks like that with a toxic attitude, no doubt. They're also, if you haven't been paying attention, micro-businesses that don't go anywhere.
 
2013-09-13 12:47:02 PM  

James!: ramblinwreck: Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.

A beautiful illustration of the problem women face.


Exactly how?  Telling people to stop complaining that SOMEBODY do SOMETHING instead of actually exerting agency?  Please spare me your white-knighting.
 
2013-09-13 12:47:20 PM  

James!: ramblinwreck: Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.

A beautiful illustration of the problem women face.


I find this to be true. 

Furthermore, women have a problem in dealing with other women. The Shakeweight episode of South Park was dead-on with the line "tell me about all of the women at work you do not like." My girlfriend does it daily with her female boss, my female coworkers do it with the other women on the staff, even if it isn't to their faces.
 
2013-09-13 12:49:57 PM  

James!: ramblinwreck: Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.

A beautiful illustration of the problem women face.


Or maybe I misread your comment.  If so, my apologies...
 
2013-09-13 12:50:52 PM  
I good start would be to ostracize anyone who uses the term "brogrammer".
 
2013-09-13 12:51:18 PM  

ramblinwreck: James!: ramblinwreck: Instead of complaining, how about women actually get degrees relevant to the tech industry.  There are no barriers to entry.  NONE.  Except that it doesn't interest a majority of women and they'll still continue to enroll in women's studies programs instead of actually doing something to fix their perceived problem.

A beautiful illustration of the problem women face.

Exactly how?  Telling people to stop complaining that SOMEBODY do SOMETHING instead of actually exerting agency?  Please spare me your white-knighting.


You're perfect.  You are hitting it exactly. I can smell the Axe body spray on your posts.  You're good.
 
2013-09-13 12:51:34 PM  
Nobody was sexist in any IT department I worked in.

A woman was in charge of our Lotus notes servers. We considered her a hero because nobody else wanted to touch it.


If anything, IT was biased agaomst people with H1-B visas.  We hired so many of those Indian farkers, and they never got anything done.

Indian citizens in our IT department, they hated the H1-B guys too.

I respected all the women in finance and HR, because they do a job I'm incapable of. So what if they have trouble with computers, the weren't hired for their IT skill, and it's my job to enable them to do theirs.  Gender doesn't even really enter into it.

What i did see is that marketing, finance, HR and accounting had large numbers of female employees while engineering and IT did not.

I never saw a lack of respect for women though in any department.

/maybe I just worked at a good company with decent people.
 
2013-09-13 12:51:52 PM  

Theaetetus: Let's be honest, Honest. You wouldn't take her seriously no matter what.


Sure I would.
 
2013-09-13 12:52:18 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I worked in environments that were 98% female (Health Care) and 90% male (engineering).

Working in an environment with mostly females was interesting because I had a cubical hidden in a corner where they forgot I was. My observation was that when (female employees believe that) men aren't around -women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do.


Because People in power are Stupid: When I was working at the hospital, one of my female colleagues said,  in no uncertain terms - that I shouldn't be working there because employment at the hospital was 'for women' not men.

Addressing both your comments, the "you shouldn't be working there" was 100% in the wrong and actionable. Should never happen, to either gender.

The other comment you made, "women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do", is subjective and you're in rhetorical danger of making assumptions about where the "baseline" of acceptable behavior is. I'm not saying they aren't sexist, but "far more sexist than men" is difficult to quantify. You may not realize how uncomfortable a woman in a department of all men may be, that maybe what you consider a somewhat-less-sexist banter in an almost-all-male group could also be perceived by that one woman to also be "far more sexist than women". Look, I'm not judging you or telling you that you are wrong, just that it's really hard sometimes to know what a "baseline" is to compare "more sexist", because we all have anecdotes about these things, and it can lead to arguing about which gender is "more sexist" and not talking about the actual problem: what kind of behaviors we should be promoting.
 
2013-09-13 12:52:24 PM  
and Adria Richards? Really? The woman is like the stereotype of the offense-seeking feminist (Google her for more details).
 
2013-09-13 12:53:16 PM  

farkeruk: and Adria Richards? Really? The woman is like the stereotype of the offense-seeking feminist (Google her for more details).


muh dongles
 
2013-09-13 12:53:27 PM  
i have a cousin who's a hot blonde with a CS degree from a third rate college. she is frightened and confused by Linux, but gets most any high paying job she wants. the computer tech industry totally wants more hot blondes, and if she can frag them in Team Fortress 1/5 of the time then her employers will worship the ground she walks on.

ladies, the computer industry needs you as a vital part of the team. if you're hot, young, and flirty.
 
2013-09-13 12:54:38 PM  

Honest Bender: Theaetetus: Let's be honest, Honest. You wouldn't take her seriously no matter what.

Sure I would.


Ya, arguing with her is useless.  You'll always be a sexist piece of shiat if you're ever critical of a woman and/or their behavior, regardless of the merit of your argument.  /rolls eyes
 
2013-09-13 12:54:49 PM  

the801: i have a cousin who's a hot blonde


You sound inbred.
 
2013-09-13 12:56:29 PM  

Honest Bender: I'm having a hard time taking Rachel Sklar seriously when it seems like she's going way out of her way to be offended.

She's basically complaining that men act brofully when not around women.  BFD.

And there seems to be a lot of fabricated outrage that there aren't more women in the tech sector.  Like it's some big problem that has to be solved.  If people aren't interested in a field, why put so much effort into attracting them?   What problem is solved by attracting more women to IT/engineering?

I hear a lot of women complain about the "problem" but I've never heard a reason why it's a problem in the first place.




Windows 8????
 
2013-09-13 12:59:47 PM  

StopLurkListen: The other comment you made, "women behave in ways that are far more sexist than men do", is subjective and you're in rhetorical danger of making assumptions about where the "baseline" of acceptable behavior is. I'm not saying they aren't sexist, but "far more sexist than men" is difficult to quantify. You may not realize how uncomfortable a woman in a department of all men may be, that maybe what you consider a somewhat-less-sexist banter in an almost-all-male group could also be perceived by that one woman to also be "far more sexist than women". Look, I'm not judging you or telling you that you are wrong, just that it's really hard sometimes to know what a "baseline" is to compare "more sexist", because we all have anecdotes about these things, and it can lead to arguing about which gender is "more sexist" and not talking about the actual problem: what kind of behaviors we should be promoting.


There is something about workplace culture. Obviously not all workplaces have the same culture so comparing any two may not reveal much of anything. That being said, the same is true with regards to someone talking about "brogrammers". The experience is subjective.
 
2013-09-13 12:59:56 PM  
There are a shiatton of valid complaints for women in tech, but I always lose interest in the argument when people start throwing a tantrum over shiat like donglegate.  If a couple of kids with a juvenile sense of humor making a dick joke in your general vicinity sends you into apoplectic fits, the problem wasn't the kids.
 
2013-09-13 01:00:47 PM  
The problem is the heart and soul of the tech industry is aspergers cases and formerly bullied geeks.  They dove into computers because a PC never gave them a swirly or laughed at them and they also hoped they'd be the next Steve Jobs.  They've always been afraid of women.  They're outraged that they've made it to middle age and instead of running a company they're stuck in a server closet reporting to the same kinds of guys that stole their lunch money.  And now women are trying to break into the industry  and they're freaking out.
 
2013-09-13 01:02:22 PM  

James!: The problem is the heart and soul of the tech industry is aspergers cases and formerly bullied geeks.  They dove into computers because a PC never gave them a swirly or laughed at them and they also hoped they'd be the next Steve Jobs.  They've always been afraid of women.  They're outraged that they've made it to middle age and instead of running a company they're stuck in a server closet reporting to the same kinds of guys that stole their lunch money.  And now women are trying to break into the industry  and they're freaking out.


Or exerting pressure on the same women who would have rejected them to begin with.
 
2013-09-13 01:03:32 PM  

China White Tea: There are a shiatton of valid complaints for women in tech, but I always lose interest in the argument when people start throwing a tantrum over shiat like donglegate.  If a couple of kids with a juvenile sense of humor making a dick joke in your general vicinity sends you into apoplectic fits, the problem wasn't the kids.


Mind you, if someone sends a tweet saying that some dick joke wasn't cool, DDoSing her employer is an even bigger tantrum.
 
2013-09-13 01:04:31 PM  

Marine1: James!: The problem is the heart and soul of the tech industry is aspergers cases and formerly bullied geeks.  They dove into computers because a PC never gave them a swirly or laughed at them and they also hoped they'd be the next Steve Jobs.  They've always been afraid of women.  They're outraged that they've made it to middle age and instead of running a company they're stuck in a server closet reporting to the same kinds of guys that stole their lunch money.  And now women are trying to break into the industry  and they're freaking out.

Or exerting pressure on the same women who would have rejected them to begin with.


Exactly, emotionally stunted dweebs lashing out strangers because all they can see in a woman is their long line of sexual embarrassments.
 
2013-09-13 01:05:04 PM  
Generalizations.  Generalizations, everywhere.
 
2013-09-13 01:05:34 PM  
Rather than fixing their "image" maybe they can fix the problem?
 
2013-09-13 01:06:56 PM  
why does no one talk about the lack of male elementary school teachers?
 
2013-09-13 01:07:04 PM  
Doug Wilson is laughing at all you pussies.
 
2013-09-13 01:07:23 PM  
I don't understand why the women just won't work harder.

"Please help us men, you're our only hope."

Harumph. HARUMPH I SAY
 
2013-09-13 01:08:13 PM  

Theaetetus: China White Tea: There are a shiatton of valid complaints for women in tech, but I always lose interest in the argument when people start throwing a tantrum over shiat like donglegate.  If a couple of kids with a juvenile sense of humor making a dick joke in your general vicinity sends you into apoplectic fits, the problem wasn't the kids.

Mind you, if someone sends a tweet saying that some dick joke wasn't cool, DDoSing her employer is an even bigger tantrum.


I don't disagree with that, but it's not like escalation is a bizarre or unusual response to someone overreacting about something.
 
2013-09-13 01:08:36 PM  
I've worked in both male dominated (IT) and female dominated (education) industries.  The problem often is that people expect a workplace to conform to them, not for them to conform to the workplace.

I've seen high performing teams destroyed by introducing a new person (seen it happen with both a new male and a new female) getting hired and they don't fit the culture.  Culture is always a tricky word, because it can be a word used to mask prevalent sexism and bigotry, but not necessarily so.

I worked in education on the project side (read:  never had anything directly to do with students) and we had a fairly lax dress code.  People really pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable, but the ship was clipping along.  Someone new got hired and almost immediately went to HR with problems about "acceptable attire."

I think that is why interviews need to determine if someone will work well not just at the technical aspects of the job, but also within the currently established workplace culture.
 
2013-09-13 01:08:43 PM  

fluffy2097:


If anything, IT was biased agaomst people with H1-B visas.  We hired so many of those Indian farkers, and they never got anything done.


/




Sounds like your mgmt team has freshly printed MBAs.
 
2013-09-13 01:09:27 PM  

James!: Marine1: James!: The problem is the heart and soul of the tech industry is aspergers cases and formerly bullied geeks.  They dove into computers because a PC never gave them a swirly or laughed at them and they also hoped they'd be the next Steve Jobs.  They've always been afraid of women.  They're outraged that they've made it to middle age and instead of running a company they're stuck in a server closet reporting to the same kinds of guys that stole their lunch money.  And now women are trying to break into the industry  and they're freaking out.

Or exerting pressure on the same women who would have rejected them to begin with.

Exactly, emotionally stunted dweebs lashing out strangers because all they can see in a woman is their long line of sexual embarrassments.


Well, it's more or less tit-for-tat at that point (pun not intended).

Human instinct is a biatch, especially when it comes to selection of partners. Ultimately, both men and women use a person's attractiveness to choose who to associate with. Women do it whether they realize it (or want to admit it) or not, and it's pretty obvious men do. If cheerleaders were hanging out with members of the chess club instead of the football team, you probably wouldn't see this sort of lashing out, but that's not what they're programmed to do.

Is it right? No, and that goes for both parties, but men treating women differently (and perhaps poorly) because of a perceived string of sexual advances wrongly rejected is really just at the tip of the psychic iceberg as far as the issue stands.
 
2013-09-13 01:10:52 PM  

t3knomanser: ikanreed: Seeing nerds, of all people, pretend to be "alpha male" because they mistreat women is hilarious in a depressing way.

The first time I heard somebody tell me I was "beta as fark", I had to sit down and really reanalyze my life. I asked myself- did I really want to have any contact with that sort of idiot? The answer is no, but apparently I can't kill them.


Maybe they just thought you were into:
ecx.images-amazon.com
/hot
 
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