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(Science Daily)   Kids more likely to be bullied at schools with anti-bullying programs   (sciencedaily.com) divider line 142
    More: Ironic, University of Texas at Arlington, bullying programs, cyber-bullying, bullying, schools  
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5771 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2013 at 12:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



142 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-13 12:17:05 AM  
scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-09-13 12:17:27 AM  
It's not the school fault, those stupid little pussies make it so easy.
 
2013-09-13 12:17:56 AM  
Has anyone read the study? Isn't this just a case of backwards causation?
 
2013-09-13 12:17:59 AM  
rlv.zcache.com
 
2013-09-13 12:19:11 AM  
Yeah, it's also ironic how cancer centers have a lot of patients with cancer
 
2013-09-13 12:21:01 AM  
Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.
 
2013-09-13 12:22:23 AM  

dv-ous: Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust.


Fairy dust would get your ass kicked at my school.
 
2013-09-13 12:22:25 AM  
Watch the video for the song ' waking the demon'. Then, imagine that instead of turning into a werewolf the kid just puts on a ski mask and breaks the bully's face with a bat. That's the only real solution.

You are smarter than the bully. Plan it correctly, take your time, know the moment when the bully is vulnerable, givethem a t
 
2013-09-13 12:22:37 AM  
This guy guy will take care of your bully problems.
 
2013-09-13 12:22:52 AM  
si0.twimg.com
 
2013-09-13 12:23:48 AM  
Wouldn't it stand to reason that they've instigated anti-bullying programs because bullying was such a problem? The other schools didn't, because there wasn't a problem to begin with?

/Tired.
 
2013-09-13 12:24:10 AM  
* Give them a trip to the hospital.


/It's the only way
 
2013-09-13 12:26:29 AM  

BlousyBrown: This guy guy will take care of your bully problems.


I don't want help from guy guys.
 
2013-09-13 12:26:45 AM  
Or maybe schools that have higher levels of bullying are more likely to have needed antibullying programs?
 
2013-09-13 12:28:16 AM  
The solution to bullying is parenting. How about teach your kids not to be shiatheads to each other?
 
2013-09-13 12:30:18 AM  

dv-ous: Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.


my baby brother, who's a sophomore now, is so proud of himself for letting the ... mentally challenged?... girl sit with them this week
he constantly brags about how awesome they all are for putting up with her outburts
it's a condescending type of forced PC-ness

they haven't learned any lessons, they've just learned the language.
little shiats.
 
2013-09-13 12:30:27 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: BlousyBrown: This guy guy will take care of your bully problems.

I don't want help from guy guys.


Son of a... Proof read oh well.......
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.comNever Mind
 
2013-09-13 12:30:28 AM  

dv-ous: Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.


Actually, talking to people fighitng, including bullies, works wonderfully.  The problem is to get most people who are fighting to talk, you need to take them to the ground and keep them there first.  They don't exacty teach that part.

/used to do that to bullies
//they seemed to be a lot of persecution complexes among them
///they eventually got better, and everyone forgave everyone else
 
2013-09-13 12:30:41 AM  
I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down. Get that out of the way now, when he's seven and unlikely to get in huge trouble for it and future issues should be few and far between. Standing up to a bully seems to create an invisible badge of confidence that wards others off.
 
2013-09-13 12:30:41 AM  
And cancer leads to cellphones.
 
2013-09-13 12:31:42 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: BlousyBrown: This guy guy will take care of your bully problems.

I don't want help from guy guys.


i.ytimg.com
 
2013-09-13 12:34:04 AM  
Moonlightfox
The solution to bullying is parenting. How about teach your kids not to be shiatheads to each other?


How about teaching adults not to be shiatheads to each other?

I say we commit a genocide against jerks.
 
2013-09-13 12:34:09 AM  
Needs "Stupid" tag.
 
2013-09-13 12:35:08 AM  

Moonlightfox: The solution to bullying is parenting.


Wait, I thought the solution to parenting is bullying ...
 
2013-09-13 12:35:36 AM  
I'm up to SNME #14 from 1/2/88
Then it's the 1988 Royal Rumble and Bunkhouse Stampede 1988.
I don't have time for TNA.
 
2013-09-13 12:36:59 AM  

dv-ous: Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.


...and, therefore, they cause bullying. I can't argue with logic like that.
 
2013-09-13 12:37:30 AM  

Prairie Phoenix: I'm up to SNME #14 from 1/2/88
Then it's the 1988 Royal Rumble and Bunkhouse Stampede 1988.
I don't have time for TNA.


GOD DAMMIT THATS WHAT I GET FOR HAVING MULTIPLE FARK TABS OPEN
 
2013-09-13 12:38:55 AM  
oi36.tinypic.com
 
2013-09-13 12:39:49 AM  

Prairie Phoenix: Prairie Phoenix: I'm up to SNME #14 from 1/2/88
Then it's the 1988 Royal Rumble and Bunkhouse Stampede 1988.
I don't have time for TNA.

GOD DAMMIT THATS WHAT I GET FOR HAVING MULTIPLE FARK TABS OPEN


img.fark.net
 
2013-09-13 12:41:38 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Yeah, it's also ironic how cancer centers have a lot of patients with cancer


Not ironic as kids spotting bullies after they are taught how to spot bullies.

Not even close to ironic as kids acting like bullies after adults bully them through the use of metal detectors and random locker searches.
 
2013-09-13 12:42:07 AM  
I'll just state plainly what the wimpy bullied Farkers can't state plainly, but try: Correlation is not causation.
 
2013-09-13 12:42:47 AM  
Curiously, neighborhoods with lots of cops have higher crime rates.
 
2013-09-13 12:44:31 AM  
Maybe because schools with anti-bullying policies are stricter about reporting cases of it. Schools that don't care aren't gonna have a high number of cases because most will go unreported.
 
2013-09-13 12:44:53 AM  

wiwille: Wouldn't it stand to reason that they've instigated anti-bullying programs because bullying was such a problem? The other schools didn't, because there wasn't a problem to begin with?

/Tired.


Or more victims of bullying come forward where a program is instituted which tells them how to deal with bullying.

Seriously, here's the HSBC form  that they've based the study on:
http://www.hbsc.org/documents/2005_06%20HBSC%20Mandatory%20Questionn ai re%20Variable%20List.pdf

The two questions that relate to bullying are "Have you been bullied in the past two months" and "Have you bullied others" - it doesn't appear that they actually define what "bullying" counts as, leaving it to the kid filling out the survey to decide what it means. If you'd been taught that name calling and social media attacks are also bullying you'd be more likely to mark the box than if you only thought that someone beating you up counted. I can't see the actual study, but if that's all they're basing it on, it might be something interesting to explore further, but it would be shoddy to infer that the programs themselves lead to more actual bullying (rather than just more percieved bullying) without further evidence.
 
2013-09-13 12:46:02 AM  
 
2013-09-13 12:47:19 AM  
Doesnt surprise me, school "anti this or that" campaigns suck so bad they make you want to do whatever they are preaching against.
 
2013-09-13 12:48:08 AM  
The best solution to a bully problem is a fist. Whoop a bullies butt and they stop it.
 
2013-09-13 12:48:42 AM  
Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.
 
2013-09-13 12:48:45 AM  

show me: I'll just state plainly what the wimpy bullied Farkers can't state plainly, but try: Correlation is not causation.


Thanks for the lesson. Now give me a wedgie and steal my lunch money to complete the whole experience.
 
2013-09-13 12:52:33 AM  
Headline: Kids more likely to be bullied at schools with anti-bullying programs everywhere for all time.

FTFY
 
2013-09-13 12:54:20 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The best solution to a bully problem is a fist. Whoop a bullies butt and they stop it.


I wouldn't really be into fisting a bully's butt, but thanks for the advice anyway.
 
2013-09-13 01:07:00 AM  

wiwille: Wouldn't it stand to reason that they've instigated anti-bullying programs because bullying was such a problem? The other schools didn't, because there wasn't a problem to begin with?

/Tired.


Seems to me if you have a bullying problem at your school, you deal with the bully.

We try to educate bullies that bullying is wrong now?  They already know that.  Threatening and beating people up is wrong to EVERYONE who isn't a psychopath.

/ unless we are talking about "bullying" as people today use it, ("your are project sucked, Tommy)  Poor tommy, he is scarred for life from this bullying incident.
 
2013-09-13 01:07:27 AM  

Prairie Phoenix: Prairie Phoenix: I'm up to SNME #14 from 1/2/88
Then it's the 1988 Royal Rumble and Bunkhouse Stampede 1988.
I don't have time for TNA.

GOD DAMMIT THATS WHAT I GET FOR HAVING MULTIPLE FARK TABS OPEN


HA HA!
 
2013-09-13 01:08:46 AM  
^that's what I get for not reading the entire thread. Stupid particular individual.
 
2013-09-13 01:24:29 AM  

arbitterm: Maybe because schools with anti-bullying policies are stricter about reporting cases of it. Schools that don't care aren't gonna have a high number of cases because most will go unreported.


Or the schools (or their resident busy-bodies, at least) are more likely to exaggerate, defining what would normally be considered pretty typical incidents of adolescent jibing and fighting as, instead, cases of bullying and assault.
 
2013-09-13 01:24:38 AM  

Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.


And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?
 
2013-09-13 01:25:23 AM  
Know what we did after Fire Safety Day? Know what many kids do after a week of DARE brainwashing?
 
2013-09-13 01:26:09 AM  
This is why children should be ENCOURAGED to either pick on other kids, or to act helpless and wussy.

Children always do the opposite of what they're told.
 
2013-09-13 01:28:13 AM  

Enemabag Jones: I say we commit a genocide against jerks.


Careful, that might lead to people calling the Jerk Store and finding there aren't enough jerks.
 
2013-09-13 01:30:03 AM  
1: Schools that had a major problem are more likely to institute programs to stop that problem.
2: Schools that have a program will report much higher levels because the program detects.

This stupid study is like saying a road with speed cameras has more speeders than another road with no cameras..
 
2013-09-13 01:33:31 AM  
mymovements.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-09-13 01:40:28 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.


It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?
 
2013-09-13 01:52:00 AM  

dv-ous: Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.


Best of all, once they're "implemented," the school can't be sued when a kid gets bullied.  Or at least they can be used as evidence that the school was not negligent in its duty to combat bullying.

So you see, it's not complete BS, at least not from a risk management and liability avoidance point of view, which is the only point of view that matters to the schools these days.
 
2013-09-13 01:57:48 AM  
I'm going with the well tested: Duh.

Schools that tell kids not to fight back have a higher instance of kids being picked on.
Totally couldn't see that coming.
 
2013-09-13 01:59:33 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


I think I know why. They were bullied as kids, and deep down they wish they could have been the bully instead of the bullied. ITG is the perfect place to vent the pent up angst. If however we are all on here saying shame on the bullies, in a bullied self-loathing kind of way, they want to blame the bullied kid.

and may I add, that was a very touching story. I'm sorry the adults in your life failed you.
 
2013-09-13 02:04:13 AM  
I punched a bully in the face once. He came storming into the classroom at change of period and swiped the contents of my desk on the floor.

I just snapped.

Then I thought "Ooooh shiat what have I done?"

He screamed and pointed and said I was "dead" but that was the end of it.
 
2013-09-13 02:05:46 AM  

Ringshadow: Schools with DARE tend to see an increase in drug and alcohol abuse

/no one's surprised about either


Guess what? Just the other day I saw some kid collecting donations for DARE's new anti-bullying program.
 
2013-09-13 02:08:50 AM  

cyberspacedout: Ringshadow: Schools with DARE tend to see an increase in drug and alcohol abuse

/no one's surprised about either

Guess what? Just the other day I saw some kid collecting donations for DARE's new anti-bullying program.


I hope you punched him in the face.
 
2013-09-13 02:11:34 AM  
awesomebmovies.com
 
2013-09-13 02:15:29 AM  

Errk: [awesomebmovies.com image 400x300]


Go for the nose.

/LOVE that movie
 
2013-09-13 02:27:59 AM  

flondrix: Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.

And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?


As the short kid in school and the obvious target of bullies: you fight back anyway.  You always fight back, and even if the bully only comes out with a scratch, it at least makes them think twice.

Because that's all that bullies understand.
 
2013-09-13 02:35:01 AM  
We've held employers responsible for workplace harassment for decades now. Why are schools not held to the same standard?

Why do we even have different, non-criminal words -- bullying -- when referring to children then when the same situations involving adults would use criminal words -- assault, battery, harassment? If we would just stop pretending that children aren't really human beings we already have a whole slew of tools to deal with these social issues.

/ Plus we should stop forcing children to attend terrible schools in the first place, both to stop "bullying" from happening and to prevent victims from being legally required to face their abusers
 
2013-09-13 02:35:17 AM  

cheeseaholic: dv-ous: Ironic? Apparently the "Obvious" tag was busy getting beaten up in the locker room.

Those anti-bullying campaigns are fairy-dust. They're completely full of shiat, ignore fundamental aspects of human nature, and are halfheartedly spoonfed to kids who know it's complete BS, by teachers who know it's complete BS.

Actually, talking to people fighitng, including bullies, works wonderfully.  The problem is to get most people who are fighting to talk, you need to take them to the ground and keep them there first.  They don't exacty teach that part.

/used to do that to bullies
//they seemed to be a lot of persecution complexes among them
///they eventually got better, and everyone forgave everyone else


I tried that once.  I was on the wrestling team in 8th grade.  The terror-of-the-bus didn't know that, and it wasn't obvious because I was a skinny little kid.  The bully got off at my stop instead of his and then jumped me thinking I was going to be easy to beat up.  Instead I got him in a "cradle" hold and kept him there until he stopped struggling.  I then proceeded to tell him as calmly as I could that what he was doing was wrong, that I was sorry for his home situation (which was shiatty), and that I'd even try to be his friend if he'd let me.  He apologized, then agreed to get up, shake hands, and go home.  Satisfied, I let him up.  We shook.  He went his way.  I went mine.

And then I woke up in the hospital two days later.  Seems he had turned around after about half a block, sprinted toward me, leaped into the air, and executed what witnesses said was a karate jump kick worthy of Bruce Lee.  I had severe kidney damage and couldn't walk or pee in any color other than red-orange for a week.

So taking them to the ground and talking to them doesn't always work.  Or rather, it works better if you don't turn your back on them.

(Oh, and in case you're wondering, he ended up getting arrested and thrown in juvenile hall, which was probably heaven compared to the squallid apartment where he lived with his drugged-out dope-dealer parents.  And we never saw him again after that.)
 
2013-09-13 02:37:59 AM  

flondrix: Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.

And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?


Get as many kids as you can together for an ambush.
 
2013-09-13 02:38:36 AM  
Prairie Phoenix
Or maybe schools that have higher levels of bullying are more likely to have needed antibullying programs?


Or maybe schools with antibullying programs make it easy to report it and are more likely to keep track of it and to classify stuff as bullying instead of dismissing it as "kids being kids".

If there's no law enforcement to report crimes to, the crime rate will be zero.
But that doesn't mean that the safest places are those without any kind of law enforcement.
 
2013-09-13 02:41:38 AM  
Get your kid a bully proof vest and be done with it.
 
2013-09-13 02:45:20 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: cyberspacedout: Ringshadow: Schools with DARE tend to see an increase in drug and alcohol abuse

/no one's surprised about either

Guess what? Just the other day I saw some kid collecting donations for DARE's new anti-bullying program.

I hope you punched him in the face.


No, I'm serious. Link

And they are actually using kids in their mid-teens to solicit donations. It's probably no coincidence that they'd get someone too young to have yet developed a healthy sense of skepticism.
 
2013-09-13 02:50:27 AM  

Mitch Mitchell: Get your kid a bully proof vest and be done with it.


Bully proof vest
www.oneinhundred.com
NOT a bully proof vest
www.mallfar.com
 
2013-09-13 03:01:47 AM  

Mitch Mitchell: Get your kid a bully proof vest and be done with it.


Here's your safe vest.

lh5.ggpht.com

I guarantee no sane person would ever want to come into any form of physical contact with you wearing one of these.
 
2013-09-13 03:03:19 AM  
I tell my kids that WITS should be:

Weaponize
Intensify
Takedown
Superiority.

Bullies speak violence.  Talk to them in their own language in a way they can understand.
 
2013-09-13 03:04:55 AM  
First headline I see after watching 1976 Carrie. FARK.
 
2013-09-13 03:25:52 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


I guess you missed the part where I qualified by saying "at the first hint of" and "intervention may be necessary" and "now the kid is seen as"...none of which would have applied in your situation, where TWO YEARS IN (not at the first hint of) and where you obviously needed assistance, and nobody was going to think you were some kind of sissy who couldn't handle the situation on your own. You didn't just need help, you needed police intervention.

I am very much FOR remedying bullying--but I also want to ensure that what is going on is, first of all bullying and not merely "picking on" and not outright abuse and torture (which it was in your case). I also want to ensure that helicopter parents don't swoop in and rescue their precious snowflakes because an ill-natured child called their darling poopy-head, and then guaranteed Snowflake three more years of being called poopy-head and worse because now Snowflake was marked as being a Sissyboy or Sissygirl who went crying to mommy whenever someone was mean to him or her.

Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.

I'll finish by saying I was bullied in junior high--by junior-high girls, the epitome of evil on earth--at a time when middle-school bullying by females was unrecognized. I mostly survived intact, and two of the girls who bullied me went on to become field hockey teammates in high school, who went to some pains to say they "had my back" in some scuffle between us and another team. It's mostly survivable even without intervention. The key for adults is to keep our own experiences OUT of our interventions and not see all juvenile bullying as incipient attempted murders....or mere instances of poopy-headedness.
 
2013-09-13 03:41:04 AM  
Gyrfalcon: ... there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads ...

... and Farkers in the Politics tab calling each other poopy-heads ...
 
2013-09-13 03:58:30 AM  

flondrix: Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.

And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?


In that case, I'm bigger than the bully. He can see what it's like when kids tease him about his wheelchair.
 
2013-09-13 04:14:27 AM  
Well it's guaranteed to have adults with IQs below the average in charge so

/There really is no hope just detonate all nukes in place don't even bother getting up to orbit
 
2013-09-13 04:19:26 AM  

Ringshadow: Schools with DARE tend to see an increase in drug and alcohol abuse

/no one's surprised about either


What's that?  Kids at a naturally rebellious stage of development might take repeated messages of "This is naughty and against society's wishes" as a challenge or guide on how to be rebellious?
 
2013-09-13 04:33:58 AM  
As a person who worked in Primary schools for a short period of time there were a few similarities I noticed about children who were bullied.

You have the child who is bullied by former friend due to a fight.   This was often short lived and they would become friends again or just move onto other friends.

You then had the child who was constantly bullied and in 90% of the times would fit into one of these two categories

1.  Has a special need and those were often aspergers or austism.    In this situation I believe that the parents as well as giving them intense early lessons should also give them social lessons.  This is because children with these difficulties can lack the human understanding of emotions and from that can seem very rude.

2.  The baby.  The child who can't laugh at themselves,  who has to tell the teacher when anyone's doing anything wrong.   The one who cries over everything.      Teach your child not to tell all the time.  My rule is if someone is being physically hurt you tell other wise you mind your own business.  So if Tommy is drawing dicks on the table keep your mouth shut.   We also insult each other so she learns to laugh,
 
2013-09-13 05:02:34 AM  
You mean that trying to force kids to do what you want by repeatedly violating their rights with metal detectors, locker searches, etc that they can't do anything about because you hold all the power doesn't teach them to resolve their differences via reasonable discussion as equals?

You don't farking say.
 
2013-09-13 05:39:20 AM  
I love the armchair school administrators in here that think, because they've read a few articles, they know exactly how schools operate.
 
2013-09-13 05:47:07 AM  

Jim_Callahan: You mean that trying to force kids to do what you want by repeatedly violating their rights with metal detectors, locker searches, etc that they can't do anything about because you hold all the power doesn't teach them to resolve their differences via reasonable discussion as equals?

You don't farking say.


Of course, some schools bring in the biggest bullies of them (with uniforms, guns, dogs, nightsticks and tasers) all to deal with kids fighting.
Sends the message "might makes right" that the bullies agree with.
School officials are morons.
 
2013-09-13 05:50:55 AM  

Oldiron_79: Doesnt surprise me, school "anti this or that" campaigns suck so bad they make you want to do whatever they are preaching against.


i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-13 05:57:47 AM  
Bullying didn't become a 'thing' until it was homosexuals and slutty girls becoming the cause du jour.

/the best way to stop a bully is to pull an Ender Wiggin, and just farking end the son of a biatch.
 
2013-09-13 06:11:38 AM  

robohobo: Bullying didn't become a 'thing' until it was homosexuals and slutty girls becoming the cause du jour.


Slutty girls have always been the cause du jour.
 
2013-09-13 06:16:19 AM  
But we need bullying!  How else will kids grow up into successful people if they aren't motivated by the cruelty of their peers to excel and someday return to destroy their lives piece by agonizing piece!?  Mark my words, if we end bullying the economy is going to nosedive.
 
2013-09-13 06:20:13 AM  
Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.
 
2013-09-13 06:21:44 AM  
I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.
 
2013-09-13 06:38:14 AM  
Kids more likely to be bullied at schools with anti-bullying programs
Schools with lots of bullying more likely to create anti-bullying programs
 
2013-09-13 07:03:38 AM  

ds615: I'm going with the well tested: Duh.

Schools that tell kids not to fight back have a higher instance of kids being picked on.
Totally couldn't see that coming.


How else are you going to raise docile little drones for the corporate triremes?
 
2013-09-13 07:05:28 AM  

jso2897: Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.


And if they choose to deal with it by swallowing the warm end of gun?

Many kids aren't emotionally stable enough to deal with some of these things on their own. Leaving them to do so is setting them up to fail. Painfully.
 
2013-09-13 07:08:48 AM  

AngryDragon: ds615: I'm going with the well tested: Duh.

Schools that tell kids not to fight back have a higher instance of kids being picked on.
Totally couldn't see that coming.

How else are you going to raise docile little drones for the corporate triremes?


I get what you're saying, but so often the mentality looks like this:

'Stop making kids into corporate drones, until they do something that annoys me, then those little shiats better learn how to conform!'
 
2013-09-13 07:18:04 AM  

INeedAName: AngryDragon: ds615: I'm going with the well tested: Duh.

Schools that tell kids not to fight back have a higher instance of kids being picked on.
Totally couldn't see that coming.

How else are you going to raise docile little drones for the corporate triremes?

I get what you're saying, but so often the mentality looks like this:

'Stop making kids into corporate drones, until they do something that annoys me, then those little shiats better learn how to conform!'


Kids are supposed to annoy us.  That's part of being a kid.  We are the ones with the problem if we're trying to suppress that behavior, not them.  We lose out on too many teachable moments because sometimes we just don't want to deal with the chaos and disruption.

If we prevent them from experiencing and making mistakes they lose their ability to adapt.  Then they are at the mercy of the bullies.
 
2013-09-13 07:22:39 AM  
My brother had a problem with a bully.  After about a year of it he finally just went off on him, bloodied up the kid.   He got caught by the principal when this happened and was suspended.

My father always taught us to fight our own battles, except in this case he went and had a "talk" with the principal.  My brother was no longer suspended after that.  I don't know what he said, but while my father was a generally caring and low key individual, you did not want to get on his bad side.

As for me, yeah there was some name calling.  Whatever, I can ignore that.  The few times it cam to a physical confrontation, I was out on top (or at least it was a draw).  I may be quiet, I may be a little chubby, but I do have some muscle to throw around if needs be (living on a farm will do that to you).
 
2013-09-13 07:25:31 AM  

Virtuoso80: I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.


Sounds familiar. I was bullied a lot in middle school, being a skinny bookworm and all. Teachers and coaches would witness my torment and just wrote it off as boys will be boys. Finally I slugged one of them and the coach pulled me aside and said, "Why do you have to be so mean?" and I got suspended. Never got bullied again though.

What do parents expect though? Hitting your children "euphemistically called spanking" is perfectly acceptable whenever your child does something you don't agree with but so called bullying in school is a travesty. Stop beating your farking kids and maybe they won't think it's acceptable to beat others.
 
2013-09-13 07:30:28 AM  

Gyrfalcon: f


I was a child, sir. I didn't have the ability to articulate just how horrendous my situation was. For all the adults knew, I was telling them, individually, that I was being bullied for the first time, or it just recently started. There was no, and still isn't any, system in place in my area to track such problems. I understand you are conserned about an over-abundance of caution, but I see no harm enforcing the rules you expect on a job site, namely no assault, battery, or physchological torture is acceptable in adult society. (I know, exceptions.....exceptions)

A child is expected to go to school to learn, not be tortured, not even for one day. Once is too much, and it needs to be stopped in it's tracks. If you want to teach a child a lesson how to deal with the real world, teach the monster to be a human, and don't leave the farking children to fend for themselves.
 
2013-09-13 07:32:08 AM  
There's another way to deal with bullies: Columbine reenactment.
 
2013-09-13 07:32:59 AM  

Mugato: Hitting your children "euphemistically called spanking" is perfectly acceptable whenever your child does something you don't agree with but so called bullying in school is a travesty. Stop beating your farking kids and maybe they won't think it's acceptable to beat others.


Great way to threadjack this into a spanking thread...

I got an open palm across my backside a few times when I was young (hey, I learned my lesson, only took a few times).  I never bullied anybody.  And I am sure there are bullies out there who are bullies because they never got any discipline (no spanking, time outs, grounded, etc...) as well
 
2013-09-13 07:36:26 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.


Could you possibly quantify this, in particular? What numbers can you cite, because your opinion seems based on them? This happened in the mid 90's, are you saying it's been "all bullying has become equal" sense before then? I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I don't believe a word of that paragraph. There is nuance allowed, especially from a faculty. I will repeat one more time tho.

There was no, and still is no, program available in Louisiana that focuses on the issue of children torturing each other. Your argument seems to boil down to the opposite being true. You're saying that the anti-bullying initiatives that have not been created have gone too far, and has thus made the adults act ineffectively 15 years ago. Is that about right?

Would you care to quantify, even in a ballpark figure, how big of a problem we have of overreacting in preventing child abuse?
 
2013-09-13 07:43:55 AM  
Bullying is hardly gonna end when we've institutionalized it as adults. I'm saying us "wimps" should be allowed to beat up bankers who have been demanding our lunch money for the entirety of our lives.
 
2013-09-13 07:56:54 AM  
Perhaps better parenting instead of statist controls would solve this.
 
2013-09-13 08:02:17 AM  

Moonlightfox: The solution to bullying is parenting. How about teach your kids not to be shiatheads to each other?


The parents are the reason the bullies do what they do.  Shiatty, abusive, overly authoritarian parents have kids that crave control over SOMETHING, so they control the pathetic weaklings that are the result of overprotective helicopter parents who don't let their kids toughen up.

Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down. Get that out of the way now, when he's seven and unlikely to get in huge trouble for it and future issues should be few and far between. Standing up to a bully seems to create an invisible badge of confidence that wards others off.


I have taught my daughter how to punch and that she should aim for the bridge of the nose.  Break a bully's nose and he'll never get near you again.
 
2013-09-13 08:09:23 AM  
Sounds about as effective as goverment's improve education drives.

// privatize.
/// grades & test scores plummeted after jimmy failure carter federalized schools.
 
2013-09-13 08:11:52 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


You didn't bother reading up to the point where he admitted intervention may occasionally be needed, did you?

Your experience was not typical.
 
2013-09-13 08:14:30 AM  
Spank your children.
If you don't hit them with love,
there will come a time when someone does hit them without it.
 
2013-09-13 08:23:15 AM  

Dedmon: Why?


They were teaching you an important life lesson:  The only person who's got your back is you, nobody else can be trusted.

dustygrimp:
I have taught my daughter how to punch and that she should aim for the bridge of the nose.  Break a bully's nose and he'll never get near you again.

If it's male kick em in the balls, as they bend over drive the edge of your palm in to their nose.   For added fun when they're on the floor kick em hard until you hear 'crack' from the chest.  After that they won't be a threat to anyone ever again   As taught to me by my mother.

Yes, she also taught me to use my house keys as a makeshift knuckle duster for body shots.

/She was also ever so slightly psychotic.
//Always escalate an engagement so it's kill or be killed.  Bullies absolutely do not want to be in that position.
 
2013-09-13 08:35:19 AM  
Be cool and you won't be bullied.
 
2013-09-13 08:46:48 AM  

Virtuoso80: I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.


I have a theory on the tendency of schools to ignore bullies and punish victims who dare to fight back.

Schools like to hide their heads in the sand. If they deal with bullies, then that is an admission that there is bullying going on, and that said bullying is a problem. If they don't deal with it, they can pretend it doesn't exist.

Now, the victim who fights back can create a situation that is impossible for the school to ignore. However, the school doesn't care about bullying at all. The school cares about being perceived as not having a bullying problem. So the victim who fights back, and creates a situation the school cannot ignore is doing a lot of damage to the illusion the school is trying to maintain.

As far as the school is concerned, it is the victim who is exposing the lie, and is therefore the actual problem. And as the cause of the school's problem, the victim must be punished.


Having said all that, the most effective way of dealing with a bully is overwhelming force and violence. It could be a weapon, a huge numerical superiority, an older sibling - anything that works, that the bully is not capable of successfully defending themselves against - is fair to use. You have to make them fear the repercussions of ever trying to fark with you again.

My mum raised me to "just ignore them and they will go away". Yeah, right. That didn't work for shiat. Ambushing them punching the crap out of them before they could get back on their feet worked like a charm, though.
 
2013-09-13 08:50:27 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: Mid_mo_mad_man: The best solution to a bully problem is a fist. Whoop a bullies butt and they stop it.

I wouldn't really be into fisting a bully's butt, but thanks for the advice anyway.


robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com

/Not from the actual scene, because that one will likely get me banned...
 
2013-09-13 08:50:39 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


My dad was a cop in a small town.    In the line of duty, he killed a 17 year old Hispanic boy who was holding an apartment complex hostage at gunpoint.  I was 11 at the time.  The boy's younger sister was two grades ahead of me in school.  For the next 5 years, my life was hell, the female component of a Latin gang beat me up, destroyed my stuff and harassed me.   The adults tried to help but only made things worse.  I wanted you to know that someone else knows how bad it was for you.
 
2013-09-13 09:00:58 AM  
When I was a kid my tiny little backwoods school had an anti-bullying presentation. In the educational film there was a little skit with some sassy urban girls teasing another girl with the chant " U-G-L-Y, you ain't got no alibi, you ugly... you ugly!". Nobody in the school had ever heard that before... and it spread like wildfire... it seems this anti-bullying movie only gave us more ammunition to use.
 
2013-09-13 09:09:47 AM  
Put the bully in the cage with Andrei Arlovski. It worked quite well on Bully Beatdown
 
2013-09-13 09:16:09 AM  

INeedAName: jso2897: Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.

And if they choose to deal with it by swallowing the warm end of gun?

Many kids aren't emotionally stable enough to deal with some of these things on their own. Leaving them to do so is setting them up to fail. Painfully.


Helping at risk kids is a great idea.
Intervening on their behalf when their rights are not being violated must certainly is not - when they grow up, they are only going to be able to call a cop if somebody actually does something bad to them, and training them to seek the intervention of authority when their feelings are hurt will indefinitely delay their progress into adulthood - which is why we have so many useless, gutless perpetual teenagers around today who sue anybody who hurts their feelings. Such people are only useful to predatory lawyers.
 
2013-09-13 09:27:00 AM  

Seth'n'Spectrum: Has anyone read the study? Isn't this just a case of backwards causation?


Unfortunately, a scan of the study doesn't show that they looked at schools before and after implementation of such programs. I don't have time for an in-depth reading of it.

However, Science Daily's headline is misleading, in that the study says bullying PREVENTION programs don't appear to do well. It says that bullying goes down in schools with greater security in the form of greater adult supervision and higher teacher responsiveness.
 
2013-09-13 09:29:48 AM  
After the school shooting at Columbine, there was a lot of focus on getting bullied kids to be tolerant, if not content, with their abuse, focusing on sending bullied kids to counseling. On Slashdot, there was somewhat of an opposite reaction, and there was a rather important interaction that grew out of an article Voices from the Hellmouth. Columbine focused on all the wrong things, and I think it was the last flailings of a system that didn't know how to deal with the bullies themselves and was desperately trying to find an easier answer.
 
2013-09-13 09:35:17 AM  

maddermaxx: wiwille: Wouldn't it stand to reason that they've instigated anti-bullying programs because bullying was such a problem? The other schools didn't, because there wasn't a problem to begin with?

/Tired.

Or more victims of bullying come forward where a program is instituted which tells them how to deal with bullying.

Seriously, here's the HSBC form  that they've based the study on:
http://www.hbsc.org/documents/2005_06%20HBSC%20Mandatory%20Questionn ai re%20Variable%20List.pdf

The two questions that relate to bullying are "Have you been bullied in the past two months" and "Have you bullied others" - it doesn't appear that they actually define what "bullying" counts as, leaving it to the kid filling out the survey to decide what it means. If you'd been taught that name calling and social media attacks are also bullying you'd be more likely to mark the box than if you only thought that someone beating you up counted. I can't see the actual study, but if that's all they're basing it on, it might be something interesting to explore further, but it would be shoddy to infer that the programs themselves lead to more actual bullying (rather than just more percieved bullying) without further evidence.


That was my other concern reading the study: did kids at schools with anti-bullying programs know what constituted bullying and therefore were able to answer yes more often. Over half the students reported having experienced bullying. That, to me, seems high, and that it's not unfair to generalize bullying as a problem to a small subset of kids. It lumps the kids who experienced something that technically qualified as bullying once during the school year with kids who experience multiple instances per class. I don't see that as helpful.
 
2013-09-13 09:37:38 AM  

ThePastafarian: flondrix: Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.

And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?

As the short kid in school and the obvious target of bullies: you fight back anyway.  You always fight back, and even if the bully only comes out with a scratch, it at least makes them think twice.

Because that's all that bullies understand.


Schools and prisons operate in largely the same cultural ways. I would say that it's proof prisoners haven't matured, but it wouldn't explain why the administrator failure modes are identical.
 
2013-09-13 09:47:37 AM  

jso2897: Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty.


The problem is that the lesson, assuming it has value, is only driven home on a small subset of kids. That's not doing anyone any favors.
 
2013-09-13 09:48:31 AM  

Shadowtag: Bullying is hardly gonna end when we've institutionalized it as adults. I'm saying us "wimps" should be allowed to beat up bankers who have been demanding our lunch money for the entirety of our lives.


In life, bullies figure out how to bully from behind protection.
 
2013-09-13 09:50:10 AM  
How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch
2)then puch them in the nose
 
2013-09-13 10:06:07 AM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch
2)then puch them in the nose


One of the problems with bullies is that the punishment disaster curve starts out steep but quickly levels off. This means the bully has already experienced the penalties the system has to offer, and one more offense in starting a fight isn't going to make much difference on his PERMANENT RECORD. But the bullied kid is likely to care about his record, and so asking them to do that only works if their parents are full-force behind his right to protect himself from future abuse.

It took a long time for abused wives who finally kill their abusers to stop getting instant life-sentences. We as a society are still at the point of asking with shocked faces why the bullied kid shot up his school.
 
2013-09-13 10:09:40 AM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch


i197.photobucket.com
Approves
 
2013-09-13 10:20:33 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.

Could you possibly quantify this, in particular? What numbers can you cite, because your opinion seems based on them? This happened in the mid 90's, are you saying it's been "all bullying has become equal" sense before then? I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I don't believe a word of that paragraph. There is nuance allowed, especially from a faculty. I will repeat one more time tho.

There was no, and still is no, program available in Louisiana that focuses on the issue of children torturing each other. Your argument seems to boil down to the opposite being true. You're saying that the anti-bullying initiatives that have not been created have gone too far, and has thus made the adults act ineffectively 15 years ago. Is that about right?

Would you care to quantify, even in a ballpark figure, how big of a problem we have of overreacting in preventing child abuse?



Oh good grief.  Stop being such a drama queen.
 
2013-09-13 10:25:24 AM  
createfunnyphotos.com
 
2013-09-13 11:15:07 AM  
This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.
 
2013-09-13 11:35:17 AM  

tillerman35: I tried that once.  I was on the wrestling team in 8th grade.  The terror-of-the-bus didn't know that, and it wasn't obvious because I was a skinny little kid.  The bully got off at my stop instead of his and then jumped me thinking I was going to be easy to beat up.  Instead I got him in a "cradle" hold and kept him there until he stopped struggling.  I then proceeded to tell him as calmly as I could that what he was doing was wrong, that I was sorry for his home situation (which was shiatty), and that I'd even try to be his friend if he'd let me.  He apologized, then agreed to get up, shake hands, and go home.  Satisfied, I let him up.  We shook.  He went his way.  I went mine.

And then I woke up in the hospital two days later.  Seems he had turned around after about half a block, sprinted toward me, leaped into the air, and executed what witnesses said was a karate jump kick worthy of Bruce Lee.  I had severe kidney damage and couldn't walk or pee in any color other than red-orange for a week.

So taking them to the ground and talking to them doesn't always work.  Or rather, it works better if you don't turn your back on them.

(Oh, and in case you're wondering, he ended up getting arrested and thrown in juvenile hall, which was probably heaven ...


Hmmm.  I never had a problem like that.  Was it a lecture?  I usually just held them there and asked them why they were doing whatever it is they were doing until they gave up and told me (took a while usually; sometimes I don't think that even they knew why they did what they did).  Normally calm talking, understanding, and being able to humiliatingly overwhelm your opponent works.  Of course there's always crazy people.

/fireman's carry works best
//the foreward momentum from an all out attack makes it so easy
 
2013-09-13 11:35:48 AM  

trappedspirit: This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.


It didn't help that she said "Stop calling him 'butterbutt', I mean jeeze, look at the haircut I gave him! A bowl cut! You are totally ignoring the fact that his name is Joel and you could call him Joel the Bowl. You guys are the laziest, least imaginative bullies ever."
 
2013-09-13 11:40:41 AM  

HailRobonia: trappedspirit: This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.

It didn't help that she said "Stop calling him 'butterbutt', I mean jeeze, look at the haircut I gave him! A bowl cut! You are totally ignoring the fact that his name is Joel and you could call him Joel the Bowl. You guys are the laziest, least imaginative bullies ever."


Did I mention he wet the bed until he was 9? And I found him with a Playgirl under his mattress.
 
2013-09-13 12:05:03 PM  

Seth'n'Spectrum: Has anyone read the study? Isn't this just a case of backwards causation?


That was my first thought, also.

maddermaxx: The two questions that relate to bullying are "Have you been bullied in the past two months" and "Have you bullied others" - it doesn't appear that they actually define what "bullying" counts as, leaving it to the kid filling out the survey to decide what it means. If you'd been taught that name calling and social media attacks are also bullying you'd be more likely to mark the box than if you only thought that someone beating you up counted. I can't see the actual study, but if that's all they're basing it on, it might be something interesting to explore further, but it would be shoddy to infer that the programs themselves lead to more actual bullying (rather than just more percieved bullying) without further evidence.


Good point.  Back when I was in school I wouldn't have considered things like namecalling to be bullying, just harassment.  Bullies use violence or the threat thereof.

I'm seeing the all too common pattern of "dealing with" a problem:  Expand the definition of the problem to include a lot of marginal cases so the problem looks more important.  Then solve the marginal cases that should never have been included in the first place.  Claim success.  In reality the original problem is untouched.

Gyrfalcon: And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.


In other words, let the bullies bully.  Bullies are usually careful to pick on those who can't offer meaningful resistance.

Dedmon: It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs, who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


Yup.  To actually solve the problem would take too heavy an intervention so the adults do nothing.  The victims very soon learn to pretend everything's ok, the adults think the problem is solved and so they do the same thing next time.  I escaped the two ringleaders by an accident of geography--they went to a different high school than I did.  Without that escape (and knowing that I only had to survive them for some months) I would simply have refused to go to school.

ThePastafarian: As the short kid in school and the obvious target of bullies: you fight back anyway. You always fight back, and even if the bully only comes out with a scratch, it at least makes them think twice.

Because that's all that bullies understand.


That often works when they lone bullies.  When it's a group it's the worst thing you can do.  Had I taken your approach I doubt I would be here today.

Gyrfalcon: Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.


Unique???  I see nothing unusual about it.  The authorities won't do anything meaningful until someone winds up in a hospital and sometimes not even then.

jso2897: Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.


**THIS**

sethen320: You didn't bother reading up to the point where he admitted intervention may occasionally be needed, did you?

Your experience was not typical.


It's a lot more common than you think.  The victims damned well know to keep quiet about it until the threat is totally past.

vygramul: One of the problems with bullies is that the punishment disaster curve starts out steep but quickly levels off. This means the bully has already experienced the penalties the system has to offer, and one more offense in starting a fight isn't going to make much difference on his PERMANENT RECORD. But the bullied kid is likely to care about his record, and so asking them to do that only works if their parents are full-force behind his right to protect himself from future abuse.

It took a long time for abused wives who finally kill their abusers to stop getting instant life-sentences. We as a society are still at the point of asking with shocked faces why the bullied kid shot up his school.


Even without the issue of the record the reality is the bully doesn't particularly care about the punishments the school is capable of meeting out.

Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.

Joe Blowme: [createfunnyphotos.com image 750x600]


Sorry, but the kids next door when I was growing up were subject to that sort of thing.  Last I knew they had spent the majority of their adult life behind bars.  The problem was the parents--they were quite willing to punish their kids if *THEY* caught them doing wrong but they would always take their kids' side if someone else claimed their kids did wrong.  A most telling example:  Once when they attacked me an expensive belt buckle disappeared and they called the cops.  After talking to them the cop came over and talked to us--based on what he learned from them I was obviously acting in self defense and I had no time to have stolen it.  The fact that it had gone missing was just bad luck.  (I had taken the belt away and thrown it where a ladder was needed to retrieve it.  The buckle came off in the throw.)  Given the geometry it was likely somewhere on our property, return it if it should happen to show up.

In other words, hearing only their side of the story the cop could clearly see the kids were in the wrong, why couldn't the parents?
 
2013-09-13 12:11:49 PM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch


Wouldn't kneecaps be more effective?
 
2013-09-13 12:19:20 PM  

Loren: Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.


I was shocked by that at first, too, but then I figured that once that line was crossed, may as well cross it all the way and take out people who didn't defend you, either. I'm not sure whether they killed anyone who was purportedly a friend.

On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.
 
2013-09-13 01:05:14 PM  
dfacto -But we need bullying!  How else will kids grow up into successful people if they aren't motivated by the crueltyof their peers to excel and someday return to destroy their lives piece by agonizing piece!?  Mark my words,if we end bullying the economy is going to nosedive. You nailed it! In a society where bullying is part of the SOP of business models, how do you think any kid is going to suddenly develop humanity? The hypocrisy in saying 'we are against bullies' and then we see people every day being applauded for being bullies in business and society is enough to make some of us want to puke. You want to 'stop bullying' in schools, stop being bullies in life.
 
2013-09-13 01:36:56 PM  
http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

For you lazy Farkers who couldn't find the actual article, as well as Subby and ScienceDaily. This study wasn't designed to test whether or not the anti-bullying program was effective, it was just an examination of determinants of bullying using some shiatty data. Anti-bullying was used as a school-level control variable which happened to be very statistically significant in the direction they weren't expecting, and there are tons of reasons for that possibility.

If they were actually testing effectiveness of bullying, they'd probably use a DID model, not a heiarchical linear model. The ScienceFaily article is just jumping on a tiny part of the report and making it seem like it was the primary finding.

/jesus christ
//researcher
 
2013-09-13 01:41:10 PM  

vygramul: Loren: Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.

I was shocked by that at first, too, but then I figured that once that line was crossed, may as well cross it all the way and take out people who didn't defend you, either. I'm not sure whether they killed anyone who was purportedly a friend.

On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.


Yeah, there are a lot of people who want to pretend this was something other than the expected consequence of a climate of bullying because accepting that means we have to actually solve the bullying problem.  When you push people to suicide they sometimes take the source of the problem with them.  (I'm not saying that bullying always leads to a Columbine, but rather that if you have enough kids in the situation some will eventually snap.)
 
2013-09-13 02:34:35 PM  
AAAAAARGH!

My head asplode!

Has it not occurred to these people that schools that have seen a need to implement "anti-bullying" programs are probably far more likely to have had a much higher incidence of bullying in the first place? Thus, even if the programs work (and there is no evidence that they do work), they could still not work "enough" to bring about "parity of bullying".

Where is the longitudinal data that compares the schools both before and after the programs were implemented?
 
2013-09-13 03:02:39 PM  

mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

For you lazy Farkers who couldn't find the actual article, as well as Subby and ScienceDaily. This study wasn't designed to test whether or not the anti-bullying program was effective, it was just an examination of determinants of bullying using some shiatty data. Anti-bullying was used as a school-level control variable which happened to be very statistically significant in the direction they weren't expecting, and there are tons of reasons for that possibility.

If they were actually testing effectiveness of bullying, they'd probably use a DID model, not a heiarchical linear model. The ScienceFaily article is just jumping on a tiny part of the report and making it seem like it was the primary finding.

/jesus christ
//researcher


Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.
 
2013-09-13 03:15:30 PM  

Mugato: Sounds familiar. I was bullied a lot in middle school, being a skinny bookworm and all. Teachers and coaches would witness my torment and just wrote it off as boys will be boys. Finally I slugged one of them and the coach pulled me aside and said, "Why do you have to be so mean?" and I got suspended. Never got bullied again though.


Me, I used to get into an actual *fight* about once a year for pretty much the same reason.  Of course the fact that I'm more of a grappler than a puncher probably had something to do with that.

The last one I was in the kid spit on me in gym class and I went after him.  In front of the teacher.  Took six kids to pull me off of him.

I was never asked anything like 'have to be so mean' because I was right up front on my reason for the attack - they wouldn't leave me alone, the spittle was the final straw, I snapped and went after him.  I served a couple days of in school suspension where I got more than caught up on my homework and read otherwise, perfectly happy.  My parents supported my decision but let me 'suffer' the punishment and life moved on with everybody leaving me alone.

vygramul: On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.


I think it's a bit like the sexual harassment questions - where do you flop from being a 'non-bullied' kid to being an official bullied one?  If one instance of being bullied is enough, then yeah, nearly everybody's a bullied kid.  If it's that the kid was involved in a administrator intervention it'd be a lot less.  If you require some evidence of 'systematic victim of bullying' IE there's an incident on average of at least once a week(adult intervention or not), that's yet another standard.  It's complex.
 
2013-09-13 03:22:11 PM  

Silly_Sot: Where is the longitudinal data that compares the schools both before and after the programs were implemented?


That's what I'd like to see, along with schools that didn't implement such programs of similar characteristics (wealth level, demographics, graduation rates, etc...)

It could end up being like DARE which turns out to have a bit of a reverse psychology aspect to it - the message DARE tends to put out is so obviously bull that it:
A: Educates students that yes, drugs exist
B: Hilariously overstated side effects make teens reduce their perception of the dangers of doing drugs
C: Tells people where to get drugs(yes, the one DARE thing I attended effectively did this).
 
2013-09-13 03:22:21 PM  

endmile: mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.


I'm saying it is BS. I read the article. They show nothing at all and have the temerity to put p values on it.
Here is what they did in regards to anti-bullying:

bullying ~ program

That's it. All they did was compare the current state of bullying to the current presence or absence of a program. That's bullshiat.

What they needed was to have at least two timepoints for the same schools, one before and one after the implementation of the programs, preferably the second a "reasonable time" after implementation (if they only use two timepoints). Then, they could say

bullying ~ program * time + (1|school), and add the appropriate family. I'm going to guess either zero-inflated or overdispersed Poisson. THEN they could have looked at program:time interaction and actually made a conclusion.

I understand that this was just a fishing expedition, but the irresponsible pseudo-scientists should have realized that the one thing that would have been latched on by the press (and was even latched on with their active collusion by their own publicity office) would be "ANTI-BULLYING DON'T WORK, DERP DERP DERP DERP".

I hate incompetent experimental design, even more than I hate the "Teen Mom" shows.
 
2013-09-13 04:05:44 PM  

Big Ramifications: I punched a bully in the face once. He came storming into the classroom at change of period and swiped the contents of my desk on the floor.

I just snapped.

Then I thought "Ooooh shiat what have I done?"

He screamed and pointed and said I was "dead" but that was the end of it.


I did the same thing, only the kid had been doing it for weeks. I got four Saturday detentions for fighting.

/It's tough when the administrators are your biggest bullies
 
2013-09-13 04:14:56 PM  

Silly_Sot: endmile: mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.

I'm saying it is BS. I read the article. They show nothing at all and have the temerity to put p values on it.
Here is what they did in regards to anti-bullying:

bullying ~ program

That's it. All they did was compare the current state of bullying to the current presence or absence of a program. That's bullshiat.

What they needed was to have at least two timepoints for the same schools, one before and one after the implementation of the programs, preferably the second a "reasonable time" after implementation (if they only use two timepoints). Then, they could say

bullying ~ program * time + (1|school), and add the appropriate family. I'm going to guess either zero-inflated or overdispersed Poisson. THEN they could have looked at program:time interaction and actually made a conclusion.

I understand that this was just a fishing expedition, but the irresponsible pseudo-scientists should have realized that the one thing that would have been latched on by the press (and was even latched on with their active collusion by their own publicity office) would be "ANTI-BULLYING DON'T WORK, DERP DERP DERP DERP".

I hate incompetent experimental design, even more than I hate the "Teen Mom" shows.


A negative binomial would be effective given that there shouldn't be an immediate effect given that most programs are designed to set communal norms. Also, depending on a selection effect based on the timing of the survey, (when the survey is done might determine what answers are given), it should be a multi-year well administered survey.There's probably also some higher level effect than just school effect re: how responsive the school is to bullying -- probably at the district level. Not to mention their N is pretty small at only 7000, and if I read it correctly (didn't pay a lot of attention to it), it's cross sectional. So it's not even useful at identifying any trends. The report is pretty much useless, but I'm not sure if it's because they're morons, or people who could only get shiatty data and *needed* to publish something novel.
 
2013-09-13 04:18:21 PM  

Mister Buttons: Oldiron_79: Doesnt surprise me, school "anti this or that" campaigns suck so bad they make you want to do whatever they are preaching against.


Hey I started smoking(both tobacco and weed) and drinking because of those incredibly lame campaigns
 
2013-09-13 05:43:52 PM  
I was kinda lucky I had a great anti bullying system, my brother. There was this one kid that came up to me in the locker room and said he was going to kill me and burn down my house and some other not nice things. My brother was a couple grades ahead of me and when I got home I told him about it. He pulled out a year book and said "Find him!" When I did my brother laughed and said he knew the guy, he was a grade A ahole that my brother had to beat up a few times for picking on people, he told me he would handle it. I dunno what he did to him but that guy was scared shiatless of me and couldnt apologize enough.
 
2013-09-14 02:39:21 AM  

VonEvilstein: Virtuoso80: I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.

I have a theory on the tendency of schools to ignore bullies and punish victims who dare to fight back.

Schools like to hide their heads in the sand. If they deal with bullies, then that is an admission that there is bullying going on, and that said bullying is a problem. If they don't deal with it, they can pretend it doesn't exist.

Now, the victim who fights back can create a situation that is impossible for the school to ignore. However, the school doesn't care about bullying at all. The school cares about being perceived as not having a bullying problem. So the victim who fights back, and creates a situation the school cannot ignore is doing a lot of damage to the illusion the school is trying to maintain.

As far as the school is concerned, it is the victim who is exposing the lie, and is therefore the actual problem. And as the cause of the school's problem, the victim must be punished.


Having said all that, the most effective way of dealing with a bully is overwhelming force and violence. It could be a weapon, a huge numerical superiority, an older sibling - anything that works, that the bully is not capable of successfully defending themselves against - is fair to use. You have to make them fear the repercussions of ever trying to fark with you again.

My mum raised me to "just ignore them and they will go away". Yeah, right. That didn't work for shiat. Ambushing them punching the crap out of them before they could get back on their feet worked like a charm, though.


In retrospect I do wish I had had the confidence to slug one in the face, say "I don't ever want to hear you saying shiat to me again," and if I got in trouble, to not care so much and know I did the right thing for me. That's a lot to ask of a 13yo though.

What I've realized over time is just how much all that affected my ability to trust and relate to people. I spent most of my early life with social anxiety and putting up a front whenever I was around other humans, because that's what I learned to do. It's really a recent thing to have discovered maybe I don't have to do that.
 
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