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(Science Daily)   Kids more likely to be bullied at schools with anti-bullying programs   (sciencedaily.com) divider line 142
    More: Ironic, University of Texas at Arlington, bullying programs, cyber-bullying, bullying, schools  
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5768 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2013 at 12:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-13 08:09:23 AM  
Sounds about as effective as goverment's improve education drives.

// privatize.
/// grades & test scores plummeted after jimmy failure carter federalized schools.
 
2013-09-13 08:11:52 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


You didn't bother reading up to the point where he admitted intervention may occasionally be needed, did you?

Your experience was not typical.
 
2013-09-13 08:14:30 AM  
Spank your children.
If you don't hit them with love,
there will come a time when someone does hit them without it.
 
2013-09-13 08:23:15 AM  

Dedmon: Why?


They were teaching you an important life lesson:  The only person who's got your back is you, nobody else can be trusted.

dustygrimp:
I have taught my daughter how to punch and that she should aim for the bridge of the nose.  Break a bully's nose and he'll never get near you again.

If it's male kick em in the balls, as they bend over drive the edge of your palm in to their nose.   For added fun when they're on the floor kick em hard until you hear 'crack' from the chest.  After that they won't be a threat to anyone ever again   As taught to me by my mother.

Yes, she also taught me to use my house keys as a makeshift knuckle duster for body shots.

/She was also ever so slightly psychotic.
//Always escalate an engagement so it's kill or be killed.  Bullies absolutely do not want to be in that position.
 
2013-09-13 08:35:19 AM  
Be cool and you won't be bullied.
 
2013-09-13 08:46:48 AM  

Virtuoso80: I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.


I have a theory on the tendency of schools to ignore bullies and punish victims who dare to fight back.

Schools like to hide their heads in the sand. If they deal with bullies, then that is an admission that there is bullying going on, and that said bullying is a problem. If they don't deal with it, they can pretend it doesn't exist.

Now, the victim who fights back can create a situation that is impossible for the school to ignore. However, the school doesn't care about bullying at all. The school cares about being perceived as not having a bullying problem. So the victim who fights back, and creates a situation the school cannot ignore is doing a lot of damage to the illusion the school is trying to maintain.

As far as the school is concerned, it is the victim who is exposing the lie, and is therefore the actual problem. And as the cause of the school's problem, the victim must be punished.


Having said all that, the most effective way of dealing with a bully is overwhelming force and violence. It could be a weapon, a huge numerical superiority, an older sibling - anything that works, that the bully is not capable of successfully defending themselves against - is fair to use. You have to make them fear the repercussions of ever trying to fark with you again.

My mum raised me to "just ignore them and they will go away". Yeah, right. That didn't work for shiat. Ambushing them punching the crap out of them before they could get back on their feet worked like a charm, though.
 
2013-09-13 08:50:27 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: Mid_mo_mad_man: The best solution to a bully problem is a fist. Whoop a bullies butt and they stop it.

I wouldn't really be into fisting a bully's butt, but thanks for the advice anyway.


robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com

/Not from the actual scene, because that one will likely get me banned...
 
2013-09-13 08:50:39 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Well, part of the problem too is that nowadays EVERYTHING bad that happens to a picked-upon child is de facto "bullying". Whether it's an actual sequence of deliberate incidents by another kid or group of kids meant to humiliate or demean that child...or a one-time episode of random name-calling; parents, teachers, administrators and other kids run shrieking: "IT WAS BULLYING!!!!"

And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.

A bit like most of our efforts to fix anything really.

It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs,  who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


My dad was a cop in a small town.    In the line of duty, he killed a 17 year old Hispanic boy who was holding an apartment complex hostage at gunpoint.  I was 11 at the time.  The boy's younger sister was two grades ahead of me in school.  For the next 5 years, my life was hell, the female component of a Latin gang beat me up, destroyed my stuff and harassed me.   The adults tried to help but only made things worse.  I wanted you to know that someone else knows how bad it was for you.
 
2013-09-13 09:00:58 AM  
When I was a kid my tiny little backwoods school had an anti-bullying presentation. In the educational film there was a little skit with some sassy urban girls teasing another girl with the chant " U-G-L-Y, you ain't got no alibi, you ugly... you ugly!". Nobody in the school had ever heard that before... and it spread like wildfire... it seems this anti-bullying movie only gave us more ammunition to use.
 
2013-09-13 09:09:47 AM  
Put the bully in the cage with Andrei Arlovski. It worked quite well on Bully Beatdown
 
2013-09-13 09:16:09 AM  

INeedAName: jso2897: Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.

And if they choose to deal with it by swallowing the warm end of gun?

Many kids aren't emotionally stable enough to deal with some of these things on their own. Leaving them to do so is setting them up to fail. Painfully.


Helping at risk kids is a great idea.
Intervening on their behalf when their rights are not being violated must certainly is not - when they grow up, they are only going to be able to call a cop if somebody actually does something bad to them, and training them to seek the intervention of authority when their feelings are hurt will indefinitely delay their progress into adulthood - which is why we have so many useless, gutless perpetual teenagers around today who sue anybody who hurts their feelings. Such people are only useful to predatory lawyers.
 
2013-09-13 09:27:00 AM  

Seth'n'Spectrum: Has anyone read the study? Isn't this just a case of backwards causation?


Unfortunately, a scan of the study doesn't show that they looked at schools before and after implementation of such programs. I don't have time for an in-depth reading of it.

However, Science Daily's headline is misleading, in that the study says bullying PREVENTION programs don't appear to do well. It says that bullying goes down in schools with greater security in the form of greater adult supervision and higher teacher responsiveness.
 
2013-09-13 09:29:48 AM  
After the school shooting at Columbine, there was a lot of focus on getting bullied kids to be tolerant, if not content, with their abuse, focusing on sending bullied kids to counseling. On Slashdot, there was somewhat of an opposite reaction, and there was a rather important interaction that grew out of an article Voices from the Hellmouth. Columbine focused on all the wrong things, and I think it was the last flailings of a system that didn't know how to deal with the bullies themselves and was desperately trying to find an easier answer.
 
2013-09-13 09:35:17 AM  

maddermaxx: wiwille: Wouldn't it stand to reason that they've instigated anti-bullying programs because bullying was such a problem? The other schools didn't, because there wasn't a problem to begin with?

/Tired.

Or more victims of bullying come forward where a program is instituted which tells them how to deal with bullying.

Seriously, here's the HSBC form  that they've based the study on:
http://www.hbsc.org/documents/2005_06%20HBSC%20Mandatory%20Questionn ai re%20Variable%20List.pdf

The two questions that relate to bullying are "Have you been bullied in the past two months" and "Have you bullied others" - it doesn't appear that they actually define what "bullying" counts as, leaving it to the kid filling out the survey to decide what it means. If you'd been taught that name calling and social media attacks are also bullying you'd be more likely to mark the box than if you only thought that someone beating you up counted. I can't see the actual study, but if that's all they're basing it on, it might be something interesting to explore further, but it would be shoddy to infer that the programs themselves lead to more actual bullying (rather than just more percieved bullying) without further evidence.


That was my other concern reading the study: did kids at schools with anti-bullying programs know what constituted bullying and therefore were able to answer yes more often. Over half the students reported having experienced bullying. That, to me, seems high, and that it's not unfair to generalize bullying as a problem to a small subset of kids. It lumps the kids who experienced something that technically qualified as bullying once during the school year with kids who experience multiple instances per class. I don't see that as helpful.
 
2013-09-13 09:37:38 AM  

ThePastafarian: flondrix: Moonfisher: I have my own anti-bullying campaign; I tell my kid to hit back, hit hard, and take the little shiat down.

And if the bully is larger, stronger (often older) and much more experienced at this sort of thing?

As the short kid in school and the obvious target of bullies: you fight back anyway.  You always fight back, and even if the bully only comes out with a scratch, it at least makes them think twice.

Because that's all that bullies understand.


Schools and prisons operate in largely the same cultural ways. I would say that it's proof prisoners haven't matured, but it wouldn't explain why the administrator failure modes are identical.
 
2013-09-13 09:47:37 AM  

jso2897: Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty.


The problem is that the lesson, assuming it has value, is only driven home on a small subset of kids. That's not doing anyone any favors.
 
2013-09-13 09:48:31 AM  

Shadowtag: Bullying is hardly gonna end when we've institutionalized it as adults. I'm saying us "wimps" should be allowed to beat up bankers who have been demanding our lunch money for the entirety of our lives.


In life, bullies figure out how to bully from behind protection.
 
2013-09-13 09:50:10 AM  
How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch
2)then puch them in the nose
 
2013-09-13 10:06:07 AM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch
2)then puch them in the nose


One of the problems with bullies is that the punishment disaster curve starts out steep but quickly levels off. This means the bully has already experienced the penalties the system has to offer, and one more offense in starting a fight isn't going to make much difference on his PERMANENT RECORD. But the bullied kid is likely to care about his record, and so asking them to do that only works if their parents are full-force behind his right to protect himself from future abuse.

It took a long time for abused wives who finally kill their abusers to stop getting instant life-sentences. We as a society are still at the point of asking with shocked faces why the bullied kid shot up his school.
 
2013-09-13 10:09:40 AM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch


i197.photobucket.com
Approves
 
2013-09-13 10:20:33 AM  

Dedmon: Gyrfalcon: Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.

Could you possibly quantify this, in particular? What numbers can you cite, because your opinion seems based on them? This happened in the mid 90's, are you saying it's been "all bullying has become equal" sense before then? I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I don't believe a word of that paragraph. There is nuance allowed, especially from a faculty. I will repeat one more time tho.

There was no, and still is no, program available in Louisiana that focuses on the issue of children torturing each other. Your argument seems to boil down to the opposite being true. You're saying that the anti-bullying initiatives that have not been created have gone too far, and has thus made the adults act ineffectively 15 years ago. Is that about right?

Would you care to quantify, even in a ballpark figure, how big of a problem we have of overreacting in preventing child abuse?



Oh good grief.  Stop being such a drama queen.
 
2013-09-13 10:25:24 AM  
createfunnyphotos.com
 
2013-09-13 11:15:07 AM  
This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.
 
2013-09-13 11:35:17 AM  

tillerman35: I tried that once.  I was on the wrestling team in 8th grade.  The terror-of-the-bus didn't know that, and it wasn't obvious because I was a skinny little kid.  The bully got off at my stop instead of his and then jumped me thinking I was going to be easy to beat up.  Instead I got him in a "cradle" hold and kept him there until he stopped struggling.  I then proceeded to tell him as calmly as I could that what he was doing was wrong, that I was sorry for his home situation (which was shiatty), and that I'd even try to be his friend if he'd let me.  He apologized, then agreed to get up, shake hands, and go home.  Satisfied, I let him up.  We shook.  He went his way.  I went mine.

And then I woke up in the hospital two days later.  Seems he had turned around after about half a block, sprinted toward me, leaped into the air, and executed what witnesses said was a karate jump kick worthy of Bruce Lee.  I had severe kidney damage and couldn't walk or pee in any color other than red-orange for a week.

So taking them to the ground and talking to them doesn't always work.  Or rather, it works better if you don't turn your back on them.

(Oh, and in case you're wondering, he ended up getting arrested and thrown in juvenile hall, which was probably heaven ...


Hmmm.  I never had a problem like that.  Was it a lecture?  I usually just held them there and asked them why they were doing whatever it is they were doing until they gave up and told me (took a while usually; sometimes I don't think that even they knew why they did what they did).  Normally calm talking, understanding, and being able to humiliatingly overwhelm your opponent works.  Of course there's always crazy people.

/fireman's carry works best
//the foreward momentum from an all out attack makes it so easy
 
2013-09-13 11:35:48 AM  

trappedspirit: This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.


It didn't help that she said "Stop calling him 'butterbutt', I mean jeeze, look at the haircut I gave him! A bowl cut! You are totally ignoring the fact that his name is Joel and you could call him Joel the Bowl. You guys are the laziest, least imaginative bullies ever."
 
2013-09-13 11:40:41 AM  

HailRobonia: trappedspirit: This kid's mom came to tell the boy scout troop that we shouldn't keep calling him "butterbutt".  Worked like an anti-bullying program.

It didn't help that she said "Stop calling him 'butterbutt', I mean jeeze, look at the haircut I gave him! A bowl cut! You are totally ignoring the fact that his name is Joel and you could call him Joel the Bowl. You guys are the laziest, least imaginative bullies ever."


Did I mention he wet the bed until he was 9? And I found him with a Playgirl under his mattress.
 
2013-09-13 12:05:03 PM  

Seth'n'Spectrum: Has anyone read the study? Isn't this just a case of backwards causation?


That was my first thought, also.

maddermaxx: The two questions that relate to bullying are "Have you been bullied in the past two months" and "Have you bullied others" - it doesn't appear that they actually define what "bullying" counts as, leaving it to the kid filling out the survey to decide what it means. If you'd been taught that name calling and social media attacks are also bullying you'd be more likely to mark the box than if you only thought that someone beating you up counted. I can't see the actual study, but if that's all they're basing it on, it might be something interesting to explore further, but it would be shoddy to infer that the programs themselves lead to more actual bullying (rather than just more percieved bullying) without further evidence.


Good point.  Back when I was in school I wouldn't have considered things like namecalling to be bullying, just harassment.  Bullies use violence or the threat thereof.

I'm seeing the all too common pattern of "dealing with" a problem:  Expand the definition of the problem to include a lot of marginal cases so the problem looks more important.  Then solve the marginal cases that should never have been included in the first place.  Claim success.  In reality the original problem is untouched.

Gyrfalcon: And, there's no longer any attempt to let kids try to solve the problem themselves first. At the first hint of name calling or wedgie-making SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!! which may or may not be warranted. Yes, intervention may be needed--but it may just make things that much worse for the picked-on kid, who is now seen as a weakling who can't even fight his/her own battles. Too many adult anti-bullying efforts seem to use a jackhammer when a scalpel is needed.


In other words, let the bullies bully.  Bullies are usually careful to pick on those who can't offer meaningful resistance.

Dedmon: It was attitudes like yours, coming from the adult supervisors, that nearly lead me to suicide. A member of the Crips was physically and psychologically beating on a 100 lb 13 year old, me, for two solid years of torture. First in homeroom, then in P-E, then after class, every day of the school year. It only stopped when he was sent to prison for rape and attempted 1rst degree murder.

I was 13, 100 lbs, liked video games, playing football with my friends, going hunting or fishing with my family, etc. He was a 16 year old gang member, ripped head to toe, easily 225 lbs, who just so happened to be a (actually pretty bad) running back for our (very bad) football team. So I went to the adults, most at least attempted to talk to the future murderer out of it, but it of course made it worse. The adults had no tools whatsoever to deal with the situation, something that you seem dead set against remedying. Why? Why does an anti-bullying sentiment offend so many ITGs?


Yup.  To actually solve the problem would take too heavy an intervention so the adults do nothing.  The victims very soon learn to pretend everything's ok, the adults think the problem is solved and so they do the same thing next time.  I escaped the two ringleaders by an accident of geography--they went to a different high school than I did.  Without that escape (and knowing that I only had to survive them for some months) I would simply have refused to go to school.

ThePastafarian: As the short kid in school and the obvious target of bullies: you fight back anyway. You always fight back, and even if the bully only comes out with a scratch, it at least makes them think twice.

Because that's all that bullies understand.


That often works when they lone bullies.  When it's a group it's the worst thing you can do.  Had I taken your approach I doubt I would be here today.

Gyrfalcon: Your case is somewhat unique, but I have seen far more of the latter, where badly timed and/or poorly planned "remedies" ended up causing more agony for the kids than merely letting things alone might have. If as you say adults had no tools to deal with the situation it's precisely because ALL bullying has become equal, and there is simply no gradation between a couple of kindergartners calling each other poopy-heads and a six-foot tall linebacker brutalizing a hundred-pound freshman. Clearly the former needs a stern talking-to and the latter needs some time in jail. But nobody is willing to make that call, so the linebacker gets the talking to, and ends his day by bashing your head into a locker room wall.


Unique???  I see nothing unusual about it.  The authorities won't do anything meaningful until someone winds up in a hospital and sometimes not even then.

jso2897: Behavior between children that would be criminal if they were adult should be treated severely - and as criminal.
Behavior that would not, should be ignored by adult authorities. Kids must learn to deal with things like name-calling, meanness, clique-ishness, and social cruelty. They should never have to deal with physical force or intimidation, and a very strong, broad ethical line must be drawn between those two sorts of things.
Children must develop an sound understanding of when their rights are being violated, and also when they are NOT.


**THIS**

sethen320: You didn't bother reading up to the point where he admitted intervention may occasionally be needed, did you?

Your experience was not typical.


It's a lot more common than you think.  The victims damned well know to keep quiet about it until the threat is totally past.

vygramul: One of the problems with bullies is that the punishment disaster curve starts out steep but quickly levels off. This means the bully has already experienced the penalties the system has to offer, and one more offense in starting a fight isn't going to make much difference on his PERMANENT RECORD. But the bullied kid is likely to care about his record, and so asking them to do that only works if their parents are full-force behind his right to protect himself from future abuse.

It took a long time for abused wives who finally kill their abusers to stop getting instant life-sentences. We as a society are still at the point of asking with shocked faces why the bullied kid shot up his school.


Even without the issue of the record the reality is the bully doesn't particularly care about the punishments the school is capable of meeting out.

Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.

Joe Blowme: [createfunnyphotos.com image 750x600]


Sorry, but the kids next door when I was growing up were subject to that sort of thing.  Last I knew they had spent the majority of their adult life behind bars.  The problem was the parents--they were quite willing to punish their kids if *THEY* caught them doing wrong but they would always take their kids' side if someone else claimed their kids did wrong.  A most telling example:  Once when they attacked me an expensive belt buckle disappeared and they called the cops.  After talking to them the cop came over and talked to us--based on what he learned from them I was obviously acting in self defense and I had no time to have stolen it.  The fact that it had gone missing was just bad luck.  (I had taken the belt away and thrown it where a ladder was needed to retrieve it.  The buckle came off in the throw.)  Given the geometry it was likely somewhere on our property, return it if it should happen to show up.

In other words, hearing only their side of the story the cop could clearly see the kids were in the wrong, why couldn't the parents?
 
2013-09-13 12:11:49 PM  

Joe Blowme: How to stop a bully:
1)Kick them in the nuts/crotch


Wouldn't kneecaps be more effective?
 
2013-09-13 12:19:20 PM  

Loren: Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.


I was shocked by that at first, too, but then I figured that once that line was crossed, may as well cross it all the way and take out people who didn't defend you, either. I'm not sure whether they killed anyone who was purportedly a friend.

On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.
 
2013-09-13 01:05:14 PM  
dfacto -But we need bullying!  How else will kids grow up into successful people if they aren't motivated by the crueltyof their peers to excel and someday return to destroy their lives piece by agonizing piece!?  Mark my words,if we end bullying the economy is going to nosedive. You nailed it! In a society where bullying is part of the SOP of business models, how do you think any kid is going to suddenly develop humanity? The hypocrisy in saying 'we are against bullies' and then we see people every day being applauded for being bullies in business and society is enough to make some of us want to puke. You want to 'stop bullying' in schools, stop being bullies in life.
 
2013-09-13 01:36:56 PM  
http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

For you lazy Farkers who couldn't find the actual article, as well as Subby and ScienceDaily. This study wasn't designed to test whether or not the anti-bullying program was effective, it was just an examination of determinants of bullying using some shiatty data. Anti-bullying was used as a school-level control variable which happened to be very statistically significant in the direction they weren't expecting, and there are tons of reasons for that possibility.

If they were actually testing effectiveness of bullying, they'd probably use a DID model, not a heiarchical linear model. The ScienceFaily article is just jumping on a tiny part of the report and making it seem like it was the primary finding.

/jesus christ
//researcher
 
2013-09-13 01:41:10 PM  

vygramul: Loren: Columbine didn't shock me other than the fact that they went after more than just their abusers.

I was shocked by that at first, too, but then I figured that once that line was crossed, may as well cross it all the way and take out people who didn't defend you, either. I'm not sure whether they killed anyone who was purportedly a friend.

On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.


Yeah, there are a lot of people who want to pretend this was something other than the expected consequence of a climate of bullying because accepting that means we have to actually solve the bullying problem.  When you push people to suicide they sometimes take the source of the problem with them.  (I'm not saying that bullying always leads to a Columbine, but rather that if you have enough kids in the situation some will eventually snap.)
 
2013-09-13 02:34:35 PM  
AAAAAARGH!

My head asplode!

Has it not occurred to these people that schools that have seen a need to implement "anti-bullying" programs are probably far more likely to have had a much higher incidence of bullying in the first place? Thus, even if the programs work (and there is no evidence that they do work), they could still not work "enough" to bring about "parity of bullying".

Where is the longitudinal data that compares the schools both before and after the programs were implemented?
 
2013-09-13 03:02:39 PM  

mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

For you lazy Farkers who couldn't find the actual article, as well as Subby and ScienceDaily. This study wasn't designed to test whether or not the anti-bullying program was effective, it was just an examination of determinants of bullying using some shiatty data. Anti-bullying was used as a school-level control variable which happened to be very statistically significant in the direction they weren't expecting, and there are tons of reasons for that possibility.

If they were actually testing effectiveness of bullying, they'd probably use a DID model, not a heiarchical linear model. The ScienceFaily article is just jumping on a tiny part of the report and making it seem like it was the primary finding.

/jesus christ
//researcher


Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.
 
2013-09-13 03:15:30 PM  

Mugato: Sounds familiar. I was bullied a lot in middle school, being a skinny bookworm and all. Teachers and coaches would witness my torment and just wrote it off as boys will be boys. Finally I slugged one of them and the coach pulled me aside and said, "Why do you have to be so mean?" and I got suspended. Never got bullied again though.


Me, I used to get into an actual *fight* about once a year for pretty much the same reason.  Of course the fact that I'm more of a grappler than a puncher probably had something to do with that.

The last one I was in the kid spit on me in gym class and I went after him.  In front of the teacher.  Took six kids to pull me off of him.

I was never asked anything like 'have to be so mean' because I was right up front on my reason for the attack - they wouldn't leave me alone, the spittle was the final straw, I snapped and went after him.  I served a couple days of in school suspension where I got more than caught up on my homework and read otherwise, perfectly happy.  My parents supported my decision but let me 'suffer' the punishment and life moved on with everybody leaving me alone.

vygramul: On the other hand, there's been so much misinformation about Columbine it has clouded many of these issues. There are claims that they weren't bullied kids, for example.


I think it's a bit like the sexual harassment questions - where do you flop from being a 'non-bullied' kid to being an official bullied one?  If one instance of being bullied is enough, then yeah, nearly everybody's a bullied kid.  If it's that the kid was involved in a administrator intervention it'd be a lot less.  If you require some evidence of 'systematic victim of bullying' IE there's an incident on average of at least once a week(adult intervention or not), that's yet another standard.  It's complex.
 
2013-09-13 03:22:11 PM  

Silly_Sot: Where is the longitudinal data that compares the schools both before and after the programs were implemented?


That's what I'd like to see, along with schools that didn't implement such programs of similar characteristics (wealth level, demographics, graduation rates, etc...)

It could end up being like DARE which turns out to have a bit of a reverse psychology aspect to it - the message DARE tends to put out is so obviously bull that it:
A: Educates students that yes, drugs exist
B: Hilariously overstated side effects make teens reduce their perception of the dangers of doing drugs
C: Tells people where to get drugs(yes, the one DARE thing I attended effectively did this).
 
2013-09-13 03:22:21 PM  

endmile: mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.


I'm saying it is BS. I read the article. They show nothing at all and have the temerity to put p values on it.
Here is what they did in regards to anti-bullying:

bullying ~ program

That's it. All they did was compare the current state of bullying to the current presence or absence of a program. That's bullshiat.

What they needed was to have at least two timepoints for the same schools, one before and one after the implementation of the programs, preferably the second a "reasonable time" after implementation (if they only use two timepoints). Then, they could say

bullying ~ program * time + (1|school), and add the appropriate family. I'm going to guess either zero-inflated or overdispersed Poisson. THEN they could have looked at program:time interaction and actually made a conclusion.

I understand that this was just a fishing expedition, but the irresponsible pseudo-scientists should have realized that the one thing that would have been latched on by the press (and was even latched on with their active collusion by their own publicity office) would be "ANTI-BULLYING DON'T WORK, DERP DERP DERP DERP".

I hate incompetent experimental design, even more than I hate the "Teen Mom" shows.
 
2013-09-13 04:05:44 PM  

Big Ramifications: I punched a bully in the face once. He came storming into the classroom at change of period and swiped the contents of my desk on the floor.

I just snapped.

Then I thought "Ooooh shiat what have I done?"

He screamed and pointed and said I was "dead" but that was the end of it.


I did the same thing, only the kid had been doing it for weeks. I got four Saturday detentions for fighting.

/It's tough when the administrators are your biggest bullies
 
2013-09-13 04:14:56 PM  

Silly_Sot: endmile: mreowmix: http://www.h indawi.com/journals/jcrim/2013/735397/tab3/

Ah, an article from a journal published by Hindawi. I'm not saying they only publish crap, but their standards are pretty low. Doesn't mean this article is BS, but it's not like it just came out in Science or Nature.

I'm saying it is BS. I read the article. They show nothing at all and have the temerity to put p values on it.
Here is what they did in regards to anti-bullying:

bullying ~ program

That's it. All they did was compare the current state of bullying to the current presence or absence of a program. That's bullshiat.

What they needed was to have at least two timepoints for the same schools, one before and one after the implementation of the programs, preferably the second a "reasonable time" after implementation (if they only use two timepoints). Then, they could say

bullying ~ program * time + (1|school), and add the appropriate family. I'm going to guess either zero-inflated or overdispersed Poisson. THEN they could have looked at program:time interaction and actually made a conclusion.

I understand that this was just a fishing expedition, but the irresponsible pseudo-scientists should have realized that the one thing that would have been latched on by the press (and was even latched on with their active collusion by their own publicity office) would be "ANTI-BULLYING DON'T WORK, DERP DERP DERP DERP".

I hate incompetent experimental design, even more than I hate the "Teen Mom" shows.


A negative binomial would be effective given that there shouldn't be an immediate effect given that most programs are designed to set communal norms. Also, depending on a selection effect based on the timing of the survey, (when the survey is done might determine what answers are given), it should be a multi-year well administered survey.There's probably also some higher level effect than just school effect re: how responsive the school is to bullying -- probably at the district level. Not to mention their N is pretty small at only 7000, and if I read it correctly (didn't pay a lot of attention to it), it's cross sectional. So it's not even useful at identifying any trends. The report is pretty much useless, but I'm not sure if it's because they're morons, or people who could only get shiatty data and *needed* to publish something novel.
 
2013-09-13 04:18:21 PM  

Mister Buttons: Oldiron_79: Doesnt surprise me, school "anti this or that" campaigns suck so bad they make you want to do whatever they are preaching against.


Hey I started smoking(both tobacco and weed) and drinking because of those incredibly lame campaigns
 
2013-09-13 05:43:52 PM  
I was kinda lucky I had a great anti bullying system, my brother. There was this one kid that came up to me in the locker room and said he was going to kill me and burn down my house and some other not nice things. My brother was a couple grades ahead of me and when I got home I told him about it. He pulled out a year book and said "Find him!" When I did my brother laughed and said he knew the guy, he was a grade A ahole that my brother had to beat up a few times for picking on people, he told me he would handle it. I dunno what he did to him but that guy was scared shiatless of me and couldnt apologize enough.
 
2013-09-14 02:39:21 AM  

VonEvilstein: Virtuoso80: I remember getting bullied mercilessly every day at lunch in Junior High. They never got in an inch of trouble (one teacher seemed to think I was annoying for bringing it up). One day, I was bring my lunch tray back to sit down and took my soda can and lightly bonked one of the bullies on the head with it. The dean chewed me out and I nearly got suspended.

I have a theory on the tendency of schools to ignore bullies and punish victims who dare to fight back.

Schools like to hide their heads in the sand. If they deal with bullies, then that is an admission that there is bullying going on, and that said bullying is a problem. If they don't deal with it, they can pretend it doesn't exist.

Now, the victim who fights back can create a situation that is impossible for the school to ignore. However, the school doesn't care about bullying at all. The school cares about being perceived as not having a bullying problem. So the victim who fights back, and creates a situation the school cannot ignore is doing a lot of damage to the illusion the school is trying to maintain.

As far as the school is concerned, it is the victim who is exposing the lie, and is therefore the actual problem. And as the cause of the school's problem, the victim must be punished.


Having said all that, the most effective way of dealing with a bully is overwhelming force and violence. It could be a weapon, a huge numerical superiority, an older sibling - anything that works, that the bully is not capable of successfully defending themselves against - is fair to use. You have to make them fear the repercussions of ever trying to fark with you again.

My mum raised me to "just ignore them and they will go away". Yeah, right. That didn't work for shiat. Ambushing them punching the crap out of them before they could get back on their feet worked like a charm, though.


In retrospect I do wish I had had the confidence to slug one in the face, say "I don't ever want to hear you saying shiat to me again," and if I got in trouble, to not care so much and know I did the right thing for me. That's a lot to ask of a 13yo though.

What I've realized over time is just how much all that affected my ability to trust and relate to people. I spent most of my early life with social anxiety and putting up a front whenever I was around other humans, because that's what I learned to do. It's really a recent thing to have discovered maybe I don't have to do that.
 
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