If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Wisconsin State Journal)   New Wisconsin law would allow bar owners to sue their customers for drinking   (host.madison.com) divider line 41
    More: Interesting, Wisconsin, drinking ages, health association, owners  
•       •       •

6515 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Sep 2013 at 6:23 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



41 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-11 05:40:28 PM
Oh, yes, because it's going to be so simple to find these people after the fact.
 
2013-09-11 05:48:34 PM

RexTalionis: Oh, yes, because it's going to be so simple to find these people after the fact.


If they've been arrested, it should be easy.  This will also punish poor people, which is just an added bonus.
 
2013-09-11 05:57:41 PM

Marcus Aurelius: RexTalionis: Oh, yes, because it's going to be so simple to find these people after the fact.

If they've been arrested, it should be easy.  This will also punish poor people, which is just an added bonus.


Wa huh? Someone who buys a fake ID so they can go out and drink is poor?
 
2013-09-11 05:59:13 PM
You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.
 
2013-09-11 05:59:38 PM

RexTalionis: Oh, yes, because it's going to be so simple to find these people after the fact.


How hard can it be? You've seen their ID.
 
2013-09-11 06:06:24 PM

mediablitz: Marcus Aurelius: RexTalionis: Oh, yes, because it's going to be so simple to find these people after the fact.

If they've been arrested, it should be easy.  This will also punish poor people, which is just an added bonus.

Wa huh? Someone who buys a fake ID so they can go out and drink is poor?


Who needs a fake ID to buy beer at a bar?  You just need the right bar.  And while a fake ID will set you back a few dollars, getting arrested runs considerably more than that.  Throw a $1000 bar bill on top, and you're talking probably several grand.
 
2013-09-11 06:30:14 PM

dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.


I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson
 
2013-09-11 06:31:25 PM
Or you could just smoke pot instead of drinking underage.
 
2013-09-11 06:40:46 PM

LeroyBourne: dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.

I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson


As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.
 
2013-09-11 06:43:56 PM
Turnabout is fair play. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I expect this will very nicely put an end to drunks who get drunk, have or cause accidents and then sue the bar for massive damages.

Ball's back in your court, Rummy.
 
2013-09-11 06:46:01 PM
What was all the nonsense about added technology to make sure kids are of age?

Just ask for their ID. If it looks fake, say, yo man, this is fake. If it looks good, you've done your due diligence. I don't know the laws here, but if you check an ID and it looks legit, haven't you satisfied your responsibility as a liquor seller?
 
2013-09-11 06:48:33 PM
We have this in Utah and where I live, It works really well. But its much higher here. One bar got a 20,000 dollar judgment. Its not really the amount. Its the news paper articles they put on the windows about there judgments.
 
2013-09-11 06:53:44 PM
Well that will put an end to enrolling in a Wisconsin college.
 
2013-09-11 06:56:48 PM

blatz514: LeroyBourne: dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.

I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson

As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.


See I would have preferred that.  My lousy parents (while I was HS) got me beer.  They said we know you're gonna get a hold of the stuff, we just want you to be safe, and just consume it here at home, during dinner etc.....
 
2013-09-11 06:57:19 PM
Wait, wouldn't that incentivize bar owners to let kids with bad fake ID's in, serve them, THEN "check their ID again" and sue them for $1,000?  Sounds like a decent business plan, actually.
 
2013-09-11 06:58:09 PM
So, the bar owner looks at the ID and is certain that it is fake but sells the kid beer anyway.  'Cuz now he gets money upfront for the beer and on the backend from the lawsuit.  He now has incentive to sell to minors.  Free market at work.
 
2013-09-11 06:58:11 PM
New business model in WI.

1. Open a bare bones night club, with as large of an occupancy as you can get.
2. Spread the word that you will be serving to underage drinkers on opening night.
3. Pack the place out and serve as many underage drinkers, hopefully over 500!
4. Call the police.
5. Sue all of the underage drinkers.
6. Profit. Hopefully over $500,000 on opening night... not to shabby!
7. Move to the next town. Repeat.
 
2013-09-11 06:58:32 PM

pute kisses like a man: What was all the nonsense about added technology to make sure kids are of age?

Just ask for their ID. If it looks fake, say, yo man, this is fake. If it looks good, you've done your due diligence. I don't know the laws here, but if you check an ID and it looks legit, haven't you satisfied your responsibility as a liquor seller?


According to Wisconsin law, the restrictions on bar owners are thus:

(a) Restrictions.
1. No person may procure for, sell, dispense or give away any alcohol beverages to any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.
2. No licensee or permittee may sell, vend, deal or traffic in alcohol beverages to or with any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.
3. No adult may knowingly permit or fail to take action to prevent the illegal consumption of alcohol beverages by an underage person on premises owned by the adult or under the adult's control. This subdivision does not apply to alcohol beverages used exclusively as part of a religious service.
4. No adult may intentionally encourage or contribute to a violation of sub (4)(a) or (b).

Looks like only 3. and 4. have a mens rea behind it. 1. and 2. look like strict liability crimes.
 
2013-09-11 06:59:05 PM
Because kids will have a spare 1000 dollars lying around to pay....

Genius.
 
2013-09-11 06:59:19 PM

pute kisses like a man: What was all the nonsense about added technology to make sure kids are of age?

Just ask for their ID. If it looks fake, say, yo man, this is fake. If it looks good, you've done your due diligence. I don't know the laws here, but if you check an ID and it looks legit, haven't you satisfied your responsibility as a liquor seller?


Nope. Its complete bullshiat, but a kid could have a really really good fake, or even a fraudulent real ID, and the seller would still be on the hook. I have a servers license in WI, but i imagine its pretty much the same anywhere. And thats not even the biggest bullshiat, a retailer (and clerk, its always two separate fines) can also be on the hook for third party sales, even unknowingly. I mean yeah, if theres kids hanging out in front of your liquor store, you see someone talk to them and then come in and buy a bunch of boones farm, youre supposed to deny the sale, BUT! Even if you dont see the kids, if they get busted and rat, the of age person who bought it for them can be fined, as well as the retailer and clerk who unknowingly sold it to them. Now granted, i dont know if that has ever actually happened, but legally it could. Thats how FUBAR our alcohol laws are.
 
2013-09-11 07:00:12 PM
 
2013-09-11 07:04:07 PM

Cyno01: pute kisses like a man: What was all the nonsense about added technology to make sure kids are of age?

Just ask for their ID. If it looks fake, say, yo man, this is fake. If it looks good, you've done your due diligence. I don't know the laws here, but if you check an ID and it looks legit, haven't you satisfied your responsibility as a liquor seller?

Nope. Its complete bullshiat, but a kid could have a really really good fake, or even a fraudulent real ID, and the seller would still be on the hook. I have a servers license in WI, but i imagine its pretty much the same anywhere. And thats not even the biggest bullshiat, a retailer (and clerk, its always two separate fines) can also be on the hook for third party sales, even unknowingly. I mean yeah, if theres kids hanging out in front of your liquor store, you see someone talk to them and then come in and buy a bunch of boones farm, youre supposed to deny the sale, BUT! Even if you dont see the kids, if they get busted and rat, the of age person who bought it for them can be fined, as well as the retailer and clerk who unknowingly sold it to them. Now granted, i dont know if that has ever actually happened, but legally it could. Thats how FUBAR our alcohol laws are.


So if I have this correct.  We can bust the local high school kid working the register because someone bought beer and gave it to underage kids but we can't arrest the managers and owners of major companies they run/own when they do things like... spill millions of barrels of oil into the gulf of mexico or launder money for drug cartels....
 
2013-09-11 07:04:17 PM
Seems like the law of unintended consequences has a high chance of success here:

Why wouldn't bars encourage underage drinking?  Every instance is a payday to them, in addition to the bar bill that is racked up by the drinker.

This is, in effect, a law put into effect where the fines are paid to a private 3rd party instead of the government - Effectively the government is acting as a "heavy" for the bars.  Yeah...an incredibly bad idea...
 
2013-09-11 07:07:23 PM

h3dge: Why wouldn't bars encourage underage drinking? Every instance is a payday to them, in addition to the bar bill that is racked up by the drinker.


Because of this:

2. A person who commits a violation may be:
a. Required to forfeit not more than $500 if the person has not committed a previous violation within 30 months of the violation.
b. Fined not more than $500 or imprisoned for not more than 30 days or both if the person has committed a previous violation within 30 months of the violation.
c. Fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned for not more than 90 days or both if the person has committed 2 previous violations within 30 months of the violation.
d. Fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than 9 months or both if the person has committed 3 or more previous violations within 30 months of the violation.

3. A court shall suspend any license or permit issued under this chapter to a person for:
a. Not more than 3 days, if the court finds that the person committed a violation within 12 months after committing one previous violation;
b. Not less than 3 days nor more than 10 days, if the court finds that the person committed a violation within 12 months after committing 2 other violations; or
c. Not less than 15 days nor more than 30 days, if the court finds that the person committed the violation within 12 months after committing 3 other violations.

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/125/I/07
 
2013-09-11 07:10:55 PM

clowncar: Wait, wouldn't that incentivize bar owners to let kids with bad fake ID's in, serve them, THEN "check their ID again" and sue them for $1,000?  Sounds like a decent business plan, actually.


dali's perspective: So, the bar owner looks at the ID and is certain that it is fake but sells the kid beer anyway.  'Cuz now he gets money upfront for the beer and on the backend from the lawsuit.  He now has incentive to sell to minors.  Free market at work.


JeffreyScott: New business model in WI.

1. Open a bare bones night club, with as large of an occupancy as you can get.
2. Spread the word that you will be serving to underage drinkers on opening night.
3. Pack the place out and serve as many underage drinkers, hopefully over 500!
4. Call the police.
5. Sue all of the underage drinkers.
6. Profit. Hopefully over $500,000 on opening night... not to shabby!
7. Move to the next town. Repeat.


According to the article (the what?)

He said he changed the bill to appease some of his Democratic colleagues by deleting a requirement that would have required the underage drinker to pay the attorney fees of the bar or establishment and added a provision that requires the underage drinking incident be reported to the police, a suggestion that came from someone in the Assembly.

The scenario is more like, kid of questionable age comes in, gets carded, has really good fake, gets served, kid and seller still get busted somehow, the seller did their due diligence, but the way our laws work that doesnt matter, so the seller is farked, but its 99% the kids fault, the business and the clerk both have to pay rather expensive fines, or worse and the kid gets off with a ticket for underage consumption/possession or whatever. Repeated violations means bye bye liquor license. A couple $1000 lawsuits arent worth a liquor license, this seems to just be meant to lessen the sting a bit. Id rather see the existing law be rewritten to somehow account for really really good fake (or fraudulent real) IDs, and lessen the seller/server responsibility in those cases, but thats difficult, because who the fark would decide "yeah, that was a really good fake ID".
 
2013-09-11 07:11:31 PM
Stay out of New Wisconsin then.
 
2013-09-11 07:11:41 PM
Again, not Florida tag very appropriate here............
 
2013-09-11 07:16:39 PM

LeroyBourne: blatz514: LeroyBourne: dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.

I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson

As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.

See I would have preferred that.  My lousy parents (while I was HS) got me beer.  They said we know you're gonna get a hold of the stuff, we just want you to be safe, and just consume it here at home, during dinner etc.....


My parents would also buy me beer. Shiat, they would have a few with my friends and I. The beer we got at the bar was Red Dog. Man, young and thirsty will make you drink anything.
 
2013-09-11 07:59:35 PM
24.media.tumblr.com


R.I.P. Brian McGee
 
2013-09-11 08:00:35 PM

blatz514: LeroyBourne: dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.

I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson

As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.


For me, getting booze from bars was harder to do in HS.  Plus my parents would buy me all the beer I could drink if I stayed home for the night.  Why waste money at a bar when I could drink for free at home?

Now when I went to college at UW-Platteville, getting served in a bar was easy.
 
2013-09-11 08:36:24 PM
Or you could drop the drinking age to a civilized age.
Old enough to die for your country, old enough to have a drink.
 
2013-09-11 09:32:47 PM
Guilty
 
2013-09-11 09:33:30 PM

blatz514: As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.


The other sure fire solution was for guys who just got out of basic training to come back and they and all their friends could drink like it's a frat house.
 
2013-09-11 10:42:03 PM

Cyno01: The scenario is more like, kid of questionable age comes in, gets carded, has really good fake, gets served, kid and seller still get busted somehow, the seller did their due diligence, but the way our laws work that doesnt matter, so the seller is farked, but its 99% the kids fault, the business and the clerk both have to pay rather expensive fines, or worse and the kid gets off with a ticket for underage consumption/possession or whatever. Repeated violations means bye bye liquor license. A couple $1000 lawsuits arent worth a liquor license, this seems to just be meant to lessen the sting a bit. Id rather see the existing law be rewritten to somehow account for really really good fake (or fraudulent real) IDs, and lessen the seller/server responsibility in those cases, but thats difficult, because who the fark would decide "yeah, that was a really good fake ID".


The Tavern League owned the Wisconsin legislature outright before the Koch brothers bought in. I can totally see the TLW lobbyists pitching this to Walker as another way to piss off the liberals in Madison, where they imagine UW students are passing fake IDs left right and center. That, and to continue Walker's War on People Who Actually Bothered To Finish College, Unlike Himself.

/seriously, F that guy
//main reason I left WIsconsin last year
 
2013-09-11 10:56:45 PM
Once upon a time seeing my home state on Fark was interesting. Now I just get the sads.

/Still clicks the link
 
2013-09-11 11:23:08 PM

JeffreyScott: New business model in WI.

1. Open a bare bones night club, with as large of an occupancy as you can get.
2. Spread the word that you will be serving to underage drinkers on opening night.
3. Pack the place out and serve as many underage drinkers, hopefully over 500!
4. Call the police.
5. Sue all of the underage drinkers.
6. Profit. Hopefully over $500,000 on opening night... not to shabby!
7. Move to the next town. Repeat.


You know how hard it is to collect a judgement?

Obviously you don't.  Even if you win all 500 cases (which will cost you at least filing fees) you might actually collect on 4 or 5 of them.

Your business plan sucks.

Oh, and spreading the word that you'll serve minors?  Yeah, that's probably going to get you in trouble too and would probably make you lose all those court cases
 
2013-09-11 11:42:38 PM
As a responsible server in Wisconsin, I'm ok with this. Every time you open your doors, any person who steps foot in your bar is a liability. Bar owners and servers are routinely pointed at as the bad guy anytime something bad happens. This puts the responsibility back on the shoulders of the individual who walks into the establishment as it is thier choice.
 
2013-09-11 11:46:53 PM

WhiskeySticks: Bar owners and servers are routinely pointed at as the bad guy anytime something bad happens.


Who are these charlatans accusing you fine folk and where can we find the scaffolding to hang them from?
 
2013-09-12 12:19:36 AM

h3dge: Seems like the law of unintended consequences has a high chance of success here:

Why wouldn't bars encourage underage drinking?  Every instance is a payday to them, in addition to the bar bill that is racked up by the drinker.

This is, in effect, a law put into effect where the fines are paid to a private 3rd party instead of the government - Effectively the government is acting as a "heavy" for the bars.  Yeah...an incredibly bad idea...


Round here bars get shut down if they have too many violations. In this case it was for serving 2 underage people (18 + 20). The ABC gets to choose when to enforce the shutdown. They chose a time period over the Irish festival weekend that brings 200,000 visitors to the town, and shut down the block-long building with 9 bars in it. The bar easily missed ~20,000 or more patrons in one weekend. It would take a lot of fines to make that a profitable business model.
 
2013-09-12 04:17:29 PM

arentevenwords: h3dge: Seems like the law of unintended consequences has a high chance of success here:

Why wouldn't bars encourage underage drinking?  Every instance is a payday to them, in addition to the bar bill that is racked up by the drinker.

This is, in effect, a law put into effect where the fines are paid to a private 3rd party instead of the government - Effectively the government is acting as a "heavy" for the bars.  Yeah...an incredibly bad idea...

Round here bars get shut down if they have too many violations. In this case it was for serving 2 underage people (18 + 20). The ABC gets to choose when to enforce the shutdown. They chose a time period over the Irish festival weekend that brings 200,000 visitors to the town, and shut down the block-long building with 9 bars in it. The bar easily missed ~20,000 or more patrons in one weekend. It would take a lot of fines to make that a profitable business model.


Based on all of the stories I've heard, I often wonder if ABC is staffed by bullied people who relish the idea of bullying other people now, along with random MADD members and other temperance crusaders who will go to any lengths to wipe out drinking.
 
2013-09-12 05:12:32 PM

blatz514: LeroyBourne: dletter: You can still buy your kid liquor in a bar in WI, so, just go party with your parents, problem solved.

I've seen that, also I bet there are bars way out in the sticks that if you (the minor) come in without your parents I bet they'll serve you.
/oh, they're on  they're way in, i'll have a beer and a jamenson

As someone from WI, that bought booze from bars while in HS, I'm getting a buzz.


With that for a handle you sir are certified 100% Sconnie.
 
Displayed 41 of 41 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report