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(The Detroit_News)   VW may sell CNG cars in US after meeting with EPA and CARP at NAIAS. Well, BFD   (detroitnews.com) divider line 31
    More: Cool, compressed natural gas, EPA, United States, Volkswagen, CNG cars, Frankfurt Auto Show, commercial vehicles, plug-in hybrids  
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1148 clicks; posted to Business » on 11 Sep 2013 at 3:46 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



31 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-09-11 02:50:11 PM
Great but to own one you still have to buy a VW.
 
2013-09-11 02:55:04 PM
I'm sure all the people from yesterday's Tesla thread who were howling about lack of EV charging infrastructure will be here shortly to discuss the basic non existence of CNG vehicle refueling stations.
 
2013-09-11 03:00:56 PM

Hollie Maea: I'm sure all the people from yesterday's Tesla thread who were howling about lack of EV charging infrastructure will be here shortly to discuss the basic non existence of CNG vehicle refueling stations.


NIMBYs run wild on CNG stations.  Our local gas utility has a small one near me, but it's on their substation property.  They want to build a nice public-accessible one a few hundred yards away, but the local apartment dwellers and owners are all up in arms.  Of course, there are no less than 6 gasoline stations in the same area, and gas water heaters in all their homes, but oh no - natural gas is scary!
 
2013-09-11 03:02:29 PM

FrancoFile: Hollie Maea: I'm sure all the people from yesterday's Tesla thread who were howling about lack of EV charging infrastructure will be here shortly to discuss the basic non existence of CNG vehicle refueling stations.

NIMBYs run wild on CNG stations.  Our local gas utility has a small one near me, but it's on their substation property.  They want to build a nice public-accessible one a few hundred yards away, but the local apartment dwellers and owners are all up in arms.  Of course, there are no less than 6 gasoline stations in the same area, and gas water heaters in all their homes, but oh no - natural gas is scary!


I wonder what would happen if deductive logic were required as part of government decision-making.

I'm guessing exploding heads and/or LOTS more work for lawyers.
 
2013-09-11 03:23:31 PM

FrancoFile: Hollie Maea: I'm sure all the people from yesterday's Tesla thread who were howling about lack of EV charging infrastructure will be here shortly to discuss the basic non existence of CNG vehicle refueling stations.

NIMBYs run wild on CNG stations.  Our local gas utility has a small one near me, but it's on their substation property.  They want to build a nice public-accessible one a few hundred yards away, but the local apartment dwellers and owners are all up in arms.  Of course, there are no less than 6 gasoline stations in the same area, and gas water heaters in all their homes, but oh no - natural gas is scary!


It's amazing how few people grasp the concept that any energy storage system, now matter what it is, that has the density needed to do something like propel a car down the freeway will necessarily be dangerous at some level.
 
2013-09-11 03:54:11 PM
Ooh, that would be cool.
 
2013-09-11 03:59:36 PM

Hollie Maea: I'm sure all the people from yesterday's Tesla thread who were howling about lack of EV charging infrastructure will be here shortly to discuss the basic non existence of CNG vehicle refueling stations.


There is one less than a mile from my office...

/anecdotal data is anecdotal
 
2013-09-11 04:10:02 PM
Finally...

Roadtrip farts just became useful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No8wNBqn4RI
 
2013-09-11 04:11:07 PM
How does the price of CNG compare to gasoline? I don't know of any CNG stations around these parts, but I think some city buses around here might run off of it.
 
2013-09-11 04:31:52 PM

bsharitt: How does the price of CNG compare to gasoline? I don't know of any CNG stations around these parts, but I think some city buses around here might run off of it.


According to Honda, the NG version gets 27 city/ 38 highway. Seems like most prices these days are around $2.50 a gallon for CNG - so that's a pretty good price for fuel. One problem with current NG cars is that the upfront cost of comparable models makes hybrids seem cheap and is comparable to EV's - at least in the case of the Civic NG.

Base gasoline Civic sedan: $18,165
Base NG Civic: $26,305
Base Prius: $24,020
Base Leaf (pre $7,500 tax rebate): $28,800

I can only imagine how much VW will charge domestically for a CNG version of one of their cars.
 
2013-09-11 04:44:47 PM

bsharitt: How does the price of CNG compare to gasoline? I don't know of any CNG stations around these parts, but I think some city buses around here might run off of it.


You mostly see it on fleet vehicles, because (a) charging stations, (b) no soot, (c) it takes up more space than gasoline, but buses have plenty of room.

People are talking about making fueling stations for your home.  But that means putting a compressor-pump system in your garage (what's in the car is much more compressed than what's in the neighborhood pipes).
 
2013-09-11 05:36:42 PM

FrancoFile: People are talking about making fueling stations for your home.  But that means putting a compressor-pump system in your garage


...which turns out to be REALLY expensive.  Too bad.
 
2013-09-11 05:58:41 PM
I'm biased, but propane is better for many reasons including cost, availability, efficiency, and accessibility. It's still an alternative fuel, so lots of tax breaks.
 
2013-09-11 06:29:34 PM
Say what you want but VW got the Germans from Berlin to Warsaw on a single tank.
 
2013-09-11 06:58:51 PM
I'd love to convert my 2002 Mercury Sable into a CNG or Propane, but the cost is prohibitive. Don't mind doing the work myself, but dropping 1k on a kit that's gonna put my car out of commission for a few days to install it? No, thank you.
 
2013-09-11 08:10:27 PM

Tom_Slick: Great but to own one you still have to buy a VW.


2/10 - might get a few bites.
 
2013-09-11 08:16:24 PM
They have CNG conversion kits in Europe that are easily retrofitted to any vehicle for  €1000. The tank only last about 2-3 hours when filled (donut shaped, easily located in the trunk) but it's a very good option instead of pumping absurdly priced gas. Switching between gas and CNG useage is also seamless (press of a button, and the system will automatically switch back to the fuel tank if the CNG runs out). Better for the environment, and cleaner for the engine. Downside? Less horsepower. CNG packs approximately 10% less punch then standard fuel, but I can see how with a proper ECU tune on the vehicle, any observable power loss is a non-issue.

I'd have fun tinkering with a turbocharged car that runs exclusively on a mix of natural gas, methanol, and water.
 
2013-09-11 11:00:08 PM
There's 2 CNG filling stations within a mile of where I work. There's also a superfund site (2 locations, one name) and a landfill. Yet within 15 miles of where I live, they're FREAKING out that a natural gas pipeline is going to be run to convert a oil/coal fired generating station to something slightly less polluting. This is also in an area that residential gas lines have been run for years.

Terrified cries of the dangers it will pose and the development it will spur in the area. In an area where that same plant was dumping coal ash and cinders for decades before they were required to stop.

/why yes, NJ does have a lot of idiots & I must be one to be stuck here
 
2013-09-11 11:18:56 PM
i291.photobucket.com

Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.
 
2013-09-11 11:23:30 PM

blacksharpiemarker: They have CNG conversion kits in Europe that are easily retrofitted to any vehicle for  €1000. The tank only last about 2-3 hours when filled (donut shaped, easily located in the trunk) but it's a very good option instead of pumping absurdly priced gas. Switching between gas and CNG useage is also seamless (press of a button, and the system will automatically switch back to the fuel tank if the CNG runs out). Better for the environment, and cleaner for the engine. Downside? Less horsepower. CNG packs approximately 10% less punch then standard fuel, but I can see how with a proper ECU tune on the vehicle, any observable power loss is a non-issue.

I'd have fun tinkering with a turbocharged car that runs exclusively on a mix of natural gas, methanol, and water.


It's a good tradeoff though, most modern cars will be just fine with 10% less HP. Since there allready is an extensive natural gas infrastructure, I'd venture a guess most gas stations are already using it for heat, you would think it would not be that hard to get CNG pumps out there.
 
2013-09-11 11:45:15 PM
A pair of bolt cutters and a Blue Rhino swap station and you're all set.
 
2013-09-12 07:38:46 AM

dforkus: blacksharpiemarker: They have CNG conversion kits in Europe that are easily retrofitted to any vehicle for  €1000. The tank only last about 2-3 hours when filled (donut shaped, easily located in the trunk) but it's a very good option instead of pumping absurdly priced gas. Switching between gas and CNG useage is also seamless (press of a button, and the system will automatically switch back to the fuel tank if the CNG runs out). Better for the environment, and cleaner for the engine. Downside? Less horsepower. CNG packs approximately 10% less punch then standard fuel, but I can see how with a proper ECU tune on the vehicle, any observable power loss is a non-issue.

I'd have fun tinkering with a turbocharged car that runs exclusively on a mix of natural gas, methanol, and water.

It's a good tradeoff though, most modern cars will be just fine with 10% less HP. Since there allready is an extensive natural gas infrastructure, I'd venture a guess most gas stations are already using it for heat, you would think it would not be that hard to get CNG pumps out there.


Except for the size of the natural gas service. It's one thing to run a furnace but completely different thing to fill the CNB tanks of 500 cars a day and run a furnace.
 
2013-09-12 07:43:49 AM
Forget propane in Florida, unless you like paying $5+++ per gallon. They are building a couple of NG refueling stations that will be open to the public off I75, in Alachua and Marion counties. This is good news and I hope it catches on, and they build more stations.
 
2013-09-12 08:37:32 AM
If you stick local to L.A. you have a pretty good selection of CNG stations, but they're almost all in industrial complexes where you can chew the air instead of breathe it. But, we've got more natural gas than we can store, so this will probably replace petrol faster than EV, hybrids, or anything else simply because it will eventually become cheaper. Same as how gasoline replaced coal before it.

Nice to see the evolution. OPEC's gonna be a little pissed when it loses one of its major markets, and if we can get developing countries on board before they completely destroy their environments? Might be able to actually learn from our mistakes instead of repeating them.

/was born in the Valley in Los Angles in the 80s. You never saw a blue sky, only white or brown. Now, we constantly have completely clear blue skies. Regulations work, whoduthunkit.
 
2013-09-12 08:53:57 AM
This government has spent a lot of our money pushing electric vehicles, specifically the Chevy Volt, down our throats. It would be an embarrassment for them to now have to lend support to competing and IMHO, superior designs such has hydrogen fuel cells and CNG. But the UAW, GM and hipster greens must be pandered to.
 
2013-09-12 11:24:53 AM

hasty ambush: This government has spent a lot of our money pushing electric vehicles, specifically the Chevy Volt, down our throats. It would be an embarrassment for them to now have to lend support to competing and IMHO, superior designs such has hydrogen fuel cells and CNG. But the UAW, GM and hipster greens must be pandered to.


Herpa derpa doo...

Domestic makers sell CNG versions of their trucks and utility vehicles like the transit connect.
The CNG civic has one several "green car of the year" awards...

Hydrogen fuel cells are only superior if your goal is to spend a lot of money for no good reason..
 
2013-09-12 11:25:08 AM

hasty ambush: This government has spent a lot of our money pushing electric vehicles, specifically the Chevy Volt, down our throats. It would be an embarrassment for them to now have to lend support to competing and IMHO, superior designs such has hydrogen fuel cells and CNG. But the UAW, GM and hipster greens must be pandered to.




I think you will find several major cities run transit systems on CNG powered busses. My local school district recently switched to CNG powered busses.

Hydrogen is actually collected from natural gas wells.
 
2013-09-12 12:09:04 PM

bsharitt: How does the price of CNG compare to gasoline? I don't know of any CNG stations around these parts, but I think some city buses around here might run off of it.


Here is Southern Wisconsin there is a Qwik Trip gas station which sells CNG, its $1.79/gallon, as of this morning.  I was wondering myself what kind MPG a vehicle would get, because it's damn cheap... comparatively.
 
2013-09-12 12:39:52 PM

HempHead: Hydrogen is actually collected from natural gas wells.


In quantity?
 
2013-09-12 04:47:29 PM

JohnAnnArbor: HempHead: Hydrogen is actually collected from natural gas wells.

In quantity?


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/4199 3 81


FOSSIL FUELS: At present, 95 percent of America's hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Through a process called steam methane reformation, high temperature and pressure break the hydrocarbon into hydrogen and carbon oxides - including carbon dioxide, which is released into the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas. Over the next 10 or 20 years, fossil fuels most likely will continue to be the main feedstock for the hydrogen economy. And there's the rub: Using dirty energy to make clean energy doesn't solve the pollution problem-it just moves it around. "As a CO2 reducer, hydrogen stinks," Romm says.
 
2013-09-12 05:17:06 PM

HempHead: JohnAnnArbor: HempHead: Hydrogen is actually collected from natural gas wells.
In quantity?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/4199 3 81
FOSSIL FUELS: At present, 95 percent of America's hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Through a process called steam methane reformation, high temperature and pressure break the hydrocarbon into hydrogen and carbon oxides - including carbon dioxide, which is released into the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas. Over the next 10 or 20 years, fossil fuels most likely will continue to be the main feedstock for the hydrogen economy. And there's the rub: Using dirty energy to make clean energy doesn't solve the pollution problem-it just moves it around. "As a CO2 reducer, hydrogen stinks," Romm says.


It's made from natural gas in a reaction that takes lots of energy.  It's not collected as H2.
 
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