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(Gawker)   Syrian foreign minister says Syria will declare its chemical weapons arsenal, sign chemical weapons convention. Thanks Obama   (gawker.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Syrians, foreign ministers, chemical weapons arsenal, Syrian foreign minister, Secretary of State John Kerry, chemical weapons, arsenals  
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1153 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Sep 2013 at 6:22 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



263 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2013-09-10 04:31:08 PM  
This sounds pretty good.
 
2013-09-10 04:35:38 PM  
Obama lost because furthermore
 
2013-09-10 04:39:05 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Obama lost because furthermore


And such as
 
2013-09-10 04:44:53 PM  
I can breathe a sigh of relief, knowing Syria will go back to conventional killing.
 
2013-09-10 04:45:39 PM  
So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered
 
2013-09-10 04:50:40 PM  
 
2013-09-10 04:52:14 PM  

SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered


Palin'd!!!
 
2013-09-10 04:53:18 PM  
Now on Fox News "Obama shows he is weak, is forced to allow Russia to dictate terms".
 
2013-09-10 04:54:13 PM  
This is bad news.... for Halliburton.
 
2013-09-10 04:54:31 PM  
I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.
 
2013-09-10 04:56:41 PM  

mediablitz: Now on Fox News "Obama shows he is weak, is forced to allow Russia to dictate terms".


i guarantee that's what they'll say.
 
2013-09-10 05:02:03 PM  
I don't think this was the plan all along, but who knows. I think it was a smart play to make congress go on the record re: war even if I was very much against our involvement. Counts as a win, though how they'll guarantee anything about the stockpile is anyone's guess.

And yeah, now they can go back to shelling children instead of gassing them. Not sure why that's different but I'm just a prole.
 
2013-09-10 05:02:45 PM  
Well, that sure was a big ol' fuss over nothing.
 
2013-09-10 05:03:37 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.


Because obama and such as.
 
2013-09-10 05:05:03 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.


Really? 5 years of "Everything Obama does is bad" and your still confused?
 
2013-09-10 05:05:32 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.

Because obama and such as.


Exactly.

Study it out, libs.

Study. It. Out.
 
2013-09-10 05:06:08 PM  
Oh great, now how will the war profiteers put food on their family? Hmmmmmmm? Any of you selfish peace freaks ever think of that? Of course not, all you're ever concerned with is yourselves. Bunch of jerk stores
 
2013-09-10 05:06:35 PM  

Cletus C.: Well, that sure was a big ol' fuss over nothing.


It is interesting that the "liberal media" never talked about removing the chemical weapons. It was ONLY about attack.

We are a war mongering nation, barely distinguishable for the middle east (other than we do all our killing outside our borders).
 
2013-09-10 05:08:46 PM  
Breaking: Republicans are suddenly PRO chemical weapons
 
2013-09-10 05:11:50 PM  

Heliovdrake: This sounds pretty good.


imageshack.us

Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet.
 
2013-09-10 05:11:52 PM  
Didn't Assad just tell Charlie Rose a couple days ago that he didn't have any chemical weapons? I hope this works, I hope the Assad regime hands over all their chemical weapons to be destroyed. It's worth a shot but I don't trust him whatsoever.
 
2013-09-10 05:12:57 PM  
Anyone that still thinks this was all due to John Kerry making an off handed remark I have a bridge to sell you in New York

This was obviously put in action at the G20 retreat, Kerry's "bluff" allows Syria and Russia to save face by appearing to call it.

That being said remember that Libya gave up their nuclear program to the US in 2004 for normalization of relations and we still ended up bombing them

//the similarity between the Libyan AQ Khan gear and Iranian AQ Khan gear allowed us to build Stuxnet
 
2013-09-10 05:13:52 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.


I think it's a win for Obama.  There will be naysayers, but that's always the case.

As to your second point, anything politicians do is judged on its effect on their and their party's chances for re-election.  It's probably not great that it's that way, but it's the way it is.  There are a lot of things that would really help the nation like banking reform, immigration reform, minimum wage increases, the public option returning to the ACA, improved funding for education and social safety net programs, etc, that can't happen as long as the GOP controls any part of the government.  Anything that helps the Democrats strengthen their position and leads to eventual complete control of the Presidency, the Senate, and the House, is a good t hing.
 
2013-09-10 05:14:58 PM  
Obama rattled his sabre, scaring everybody about another war. He then had Kerry mentions off-handedly a peaceful way out- Syria hand over their chemical weapons. The Russians jumped on that idea, and once again Obama proves he's playing 3 dimensional chess while the rest of the world is playing checkers.
 
2013-09-10 05:15:53 PM  

violentsalvation: Didn't Assad just tell Charlie Rose a couple days ago that he didn't have any chemical weapons? I hope this works, I hope the Assad regime hands over all their chemical weapons to be destroyed. It's worth a shot but I don't trust him whatsoever.


The clip I saw had him saying that they do not discuss either the existence or non-existence of chemical weapons in their arsenal. Its the same policy Israel has about discussing nukes. Everyone knows both have them.
 
2013-09-10 05:18:38 PM  

Dinki: Obama rattled his sabre, scaring everybody about another war. He then had Kerry mentions off-handedly a peaceful way out- Syria hand over their chemical weapons. The Russians jumped on that idea, and once again Obama proves he's playing 3 dimensional chess while the rest of the world is playing checkers.


It did remind me a bit of how he had Biden float the expansion of gay rights to get a public pulse on it before the administration made their big push.
 
2013-09-10 05:20:52 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.


Dude - you think the GOP was against bombing Assad on some kind of principle? You think they didn't want to see Obama make things go BOOM? They just didn't want him to get any credit for what they beat-off to.
 
2013-09-10 05:21:26 PM  
Obama?
newnation.sg

How 'bout a little love for Vlad "The Impaler" Putin?
 
2013-09-10 05:21:27 PM  

vygramul: DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.

Dude - you think the GOP was against bombing Assad on some kind of principle? You think they didn't want to see Obama make things go BOOM? They just didn't want him to get any credit for what they beat-off to.


This isn't the GOP though. This is, like, all media acting this way.
 
2013-09-10 05:22:11 PM  

DamnYankees: vygramul: DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.

Dude - you think the GOP was against bombing Assad on some kind of principle? You think they didn't want to see Obama make things go BOOM? They just didn't want him to get any credit for what they beat-off to.

This isn't the GOP though. This is, like, all media acting this way.


ODS
 
2013-09-10 05:23:07 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: Obama?
[newnation.sg image 468x560]

How 'bout a little love for Vlad "The Impaler" Putin?


Putin was the instrument, Obama was the musician.
 
2013-09-10 05:23:54 PM  

Somacandra: violentsalvation: Didn't Assad just tell Charlie Rose a couple days ago that he didn't have any chemical weapons? I hope this works, I hope the Assad regime hands over all their chemical weapons to be destroyed. It's worth a shot but I don't trust him whatsoever.

The clip I saw had him saying that they do not discuss either the existence or non-existence of chemical weapons in their arsenal. Its the same policy Israel has about discussing nukes. Everyone knows both have them.


Right. I also don't trust Assad, but I DO trust him not to fark over Putin.
 
2013-09-10 05:25:00 PM  

mediablitz: Somacandra: violentsalvation: Didn't Assad just tell Charlie Rose a couple days ago that he didn't have any chemical weapons? I hope this works, I hope the Assad regime hands over all their chemical weapons to be destroyed. It's worth a shot but I don't trust him whatsoever.

The clip I saw had him saying that they do not discuss either the existence or non-existence of chemical weapons in their arsenal. Its the same policy Israel has about discussing nukes. Everyone knows both have them.

Right. I also don't trust Assad, but I DO trust him not to fark over Putin.


That's basically the only reason I like this plan. Had it been Assad just telling us they'll get rid of them I would not believe it for one second. Assad is counting on this to keep Putin off his ass and stay in power.
 
2013-09-10 05:27:28 PM  

zedster: Libya


That's the real win here: Syria is unstable, and has chemical weapons. If the Assad regime collapses, those weapons could fall into the hands of some pretty bad people.

Libya has become a clusterfark. Imagine the horror if their nuke hardware was not sitting in a Tennessee warehouse right now.

That's why everyone should be happy about this outcome.
 
2013-09-10 05:30:06 PM  
It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...
 
2013-09-10 05:37:25 PM  

hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...


If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.
 
2013-09-10 05:39:59 PM  

Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.


MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY
 
2013-09-10 05:42:53 PM  
"Obama was humiliated by Putin's master diplomacy" in 3, 2, 1...
 
2013-09-10 05:44:47 PM  

LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY


Dammit, I missed a great opportunity for a "dark side of the moon" joke here.
 
2013-09-10 05:55:25 PM  

LasersHurt: LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY

Dammit, I missed a great opportunity for a "dark side of the moon" joke here.


Relax, breathe. We all have our little instances of temporary brain damage. Take a little time, and I'm sure you'll come up with a joke that's just money. And you're not limited to black, either; you can use any colour you like. Your next post is sure to eclipse any other out there.
 
2013-09-10 05:57:23 PM  

themindiswatching: "Obama was humiliated by Putin's master diplomacy" in 3, 2, 1...


that was half the other thread from this morning.
 
2013-09-10 06:05:38 PM  
I guess Assad studied it out.
 
2013-09-10 06:08:20 PM  

violentsalvation: Didn't Assad just tell Charlie Rose a couple days ago that he didn't have any chemical weapons? I hope this works, I hope the Assad regime hands over all their chemical weapons to be destroyed. It's worth a shot but I don't trust him whatsoever.


No body should trust them. But I at least have hope that this turns into situation where UN inspectors are peacefully destroying WMD's. Its better than war.
 
2013-09-10 06:09:22 PM  

LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY


astronaut steals moon rock.
 
2013-09-10 06:22:28 PM  

Tigger: LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY

astronaut steals moon rock.


Since Obama took office, the moon has receded from the earth four inches. By the time he leaves office, it will be almost 7 inches. And by the end of the century, the moon will be an entire 7 feet further from earth than when Obama took office.

And there's nothing we can do about it.

Fark you, Obama.
 
2013-09-10 06:24:53 PM  
No deal unless they give back Ilya Kovalchuk.
 
2013-09-10 06:25:45 PM  
This is Obama's Battle of Puget Sound.
 
2013-09-10 06:29:04 PM  
Prince Bandar just threw his goblet of Crown Royal across the plushly carpeted man cave in his palace.
 
2013-09-10 06:29:31 PM  
Obama is literally Hitler now.
 
2013-09-10 06:30:01 PM  
Hey let's wait until the weapons are declared and handed over before we debate on whether it's a win/lose.
 
2013-09-10 06:30:19 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Oh great, now how will the war profiteers put food on their family? Hmmmmmmm? Any of you selfish peace freaks ever think of that? Of course not, all you're ever concerned with is yourselves. Bunch of jerk stores


All the cool kids are wearing meat this year?
 
2013-09-10 06:30:44 PM  
Of course, if this chemical weapons business does all work out peacefully, I'm sure Republicans will stop biatching about Obama getting the Nobel Peace Prize, right? ...Right?
 
2013-09-10 06:32:09 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.comThank YOU Pooty Poot!
Give that man a Nobel peace prize!
 
2013-09-10 06:33:55 PM  

Lackofname: Hey let's wait until the weapons are declared and handed over before we debate on whether it's a win/lose.


The Russians likely aren't too thrilled with Syria actually using chemical weapons. Syria depends on Russia for all their military gear and a lot else. So for Syria it's do what Russia wants or be very very screwed. And given that Russia has had no problem destroying their own stockpiles of chemical weapons and helping former Soviet states destroy their stockpiles, there's no reason to think they aren't going to destroy Syria's stockpile once they get to haul it off.
 
2013-09-10 06:35:04 PM  
I love how the GOP now loves Putin because they percieve he's getting one over on Obama. Christ you idiots its just sad at this point.
 
2013-09-10 06:35:05 PM  
Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.
 
2013-09-10 06:35:15 PM  

Rev. Skarekroe: Obama?
[newnation.sg image 468x560]

How 'bout a little love for Vlad "The Impaler" Putin?


never trust a slickback.

slickback; a man who has no body hair.
 
2013-09-10 06:36:13 PM  

SenorBenedict: I love how the GOP now loves Putin because they percieve he's getting one over on Obama. Christ you idiots its just sad at this point.


Putin needs to encounter a SEAL Team.
 
2013-09-10 06:36:17 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.


Stop, just stop. Your trolls are weaker than Christian Ponder's throws down field.
 
2013-09-10 06:36:47 PM  
 
2013-09-10 06:37:40 PM  
President Peace Prize lost the game.
 
2013-09-10 06:37:42 PM  

SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered


Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.
 
2013-09-10 06:38:21 PM  

jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.


Whatever you need to tell yourself.
 
2013-09-10 06:39:32 PM  
Liberal DerpCon5.

Putin's Proposal to the UN over Syrian Chemical weapons WAS ACTUALLY OBAMA'S!  GENIUS!!!!
 
2013-09-10 06:40:03 PM  

LasersHurt: jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.


It was all an elaborate plan by that genius, John F. Kerry.
 
2013-09-10 06:40:41 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: President Peace Prize lost the game.


new-worlds.org
 
2013-09-10 06:40:45 PM  

rjucksch: tjfly: Thank YOU Pooty Poot!
Give that man a Nobel peace prize!

On cue:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/10/putin-is-one-who-really-de se rves-that-nobel-peace-prize/


That McFarland woman is the one who really deserves to be punched in the coont.
 
2013-09-10 06:40:47 PM  

zedster: Anyone that still thinks this was all due to John Kerry making an off handed remark I have a bridge to sell you in New York

This was obviously put in action at the G20 retreat, Kerry's "bluff" allows Syria and Russia to save face by appearing to call it.

That being said remember that Libya gave up their nuclear program to the US in 2004 for normalization of relations and we still ended up bombing them

//the similarity between the Libyan AQ Khan gear and Iranian AQ Khan gear allowed us to build Stuxnet


We ended up bombing them 8 years later. Nothing lasts forever.
 
2013-09-10 06:40:58 PM  

SenorBenedict: HotIgneous Intruder: Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.

Stop, just stop. Your trolls are weaker than Christian Ponder's throws down field.


Oh come on.
Putin has been inside Obama's OODA Loop from the beginning on this.
This outcome is completely in Putin's interest.
What's going on in Syria is a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia over gas transportation rights to Europe.
 
2013-09-10 06:41:18 PM  

jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.


I know, right? Just like that "killing Osama bin Laden" thing. Luckiest farker I've ever seen. ALL HE DOES IS WIN!!1!
 
2013-09-10 06:41:26 PM  

jigger: LasersHurt: jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

It was all an elaborate plan by that genius, John F. Kerry.


It doesn't have to be an elaborate masterstroke, either. It can just be things sort of working out pretty well with some solid international diplomacy.
 
2013-09-10 06:41:58 PM  

Cletus C.: Well, that sure was a big ol' fuss over nothing.


Not nothing. The United States took a stand against chemical weapons and won the point. Obama made clear that he was willing to spend political capital in furtherance of America's stated interest in preventing combatants anywhere in the world from deploying chemical weapons, and in this instance at least, Syria blinked first. It has the potential to be a significant diplomatic success.
 
2013-09-10 06:42:00 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Liberal DerpCon5.

Putin's Proposal to the UN over Syrian Chemical weapons WAS ACTUALLY OBAMA'S!  GENIUS!!!!


...said absolutely no one.

/except that strawman over there.
 
2013-09-10 06:42:28 PM  

sno man: Peter von Nostrand: Oh great, now how will the war profiteers put food on their family? Hmmmmmmm? Any of you selfish peace freaks ever think of that? Of course not, all you're ever concerned with is yourselves. Bunch of jerk stores

All the cool kids are wearing meat this year?


As long as we limit it to land mammals so that human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.
 
2013-09-10 06:42:48 PM  
Are they talking about Protocol II of the Geneva Convention? Or is there another chemical weapons convention?
 
2013-09-10 06:43:39 PM  

Dinki: Obama rattled his sabre, scaring everybody about another war. He then had Kerry mentions off-handedly a peaceful way out- Syria hand over their chemical weapons. The Russians jumped on that idea, and once again Obama proves he's playing 3 dimensional chess while the rest of the world is playing checkers.


Kerry was on TV yesterday saying that Syria probably wouldn't gove up their chemical weapons only AFTER Putin offered this as a diplomatic solution, and Kerry's "saber rattling" was stating that the U.S. strike would be extremely small in scale... Whachoo smokin'?
 
2013-09-10 06:45:17 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Liberal DerpCon5.

Putin's Proposal to the UN over Syrian Chemical weapons WAS ACTUALLY OBAMA'S!  GENIUS!!!!


I'm sure Putin would totally have made this proposal if we hadn't made a stink about it. After all a few weeks ago he denied Syria even used chemical weapons.
 
2013-09-10 06:45:34 PM  

LasersHurt: jigger: LasersHurt: jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

It was all an elaborate plan by that genius, John F. Kerry.

It doesn't have to be an elaborate masterstroke, either. It can just be things sort of working out pretty well with some solid international diplomacy.


I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.
 
2013-09-10 06:47:34 PM  

jigger: I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.


It also does not mean that they accidentally arrived here, or are bad at diplomacy like so many seem to want to assert. This is not an accident, and it's not "Putin's Plan" as some news organizations are selling it.

Not that credit matters so much as peaceful resolution, of course.
 
2013-09-10 06:47:43 PM  

jigger: LasersHurt: jigger: LasersHurt: jigger: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama and Kerry pretty much blundered into the whole thing. Whatever. I'll take it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

It was all an elaborate plan by that genius, John F. Kerry.

It doesn't have to be an elaborate masterstroke, either. It can just be things sort of working out pretty well with some solid international diplomacy.

I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.


Look there isn't a colum for "You won but you shouldn't have won." Its just wins and losses. If this goes through its a win for everyone who doesn't want chemical weapons in the middle east. Who the fark cares whose idea it was? Oh right assholes.
 
2013-09-10 06:48:13 PM  

DarwiOdrade: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Liberal DerpCon5.

Putin's Proposal to the UN over Syrian Chemical weapons WAS ACTUALLY OBAMA'S!  GENIUS!!!!

...said absolutely no one.

/except that strawman over there.


Dinki: Obama rattled his sabre, scaring everybody about another war. He then had Kerry mentions off-handedly a peaceful way out- Syria hand over their chemical weapons. The Russians jumped on that idea, and once again Obama proves he's playing 3 dimensional chess while the rest of the world is playing checkers.


binarydissent.com
 
2013-09-10 06:48:35 PM  

BMulligan: Cletus C.: Well, that sure was a big ol' fuss over nothing.

Not nothing. The United States took a stand against chemical weapons and won the point. Obama made clear that he was willing to spend political capital in furtherance of America's stated interest in preventing combatants anywhere in the world from deploying chemical weapons, and in this instance at least, Syria blinked first. It has the potential to be a significant diplomatic success.


This.  Gotta love watching Fark's resident superpatriots more or less cheer for Russia over their own country.  It's a thing of beauty..
 
2013-09-10 06:49:21 PM  
Tonight's performance should be epic.
 
2013-09-10 06:50:22 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Tonight's performance should be epic.


I'm sure you'll have your talking points in hand well in advance.
 
2013-09-10 06:50:38 PM  

SenorBenedict: Look there isn't a colum for "You won but you shouldn't have won." Its just wins and losses. If this goes through its a win for everyone who doesn't want chemical weapons in the middle east. Who the fark cares whose idea it was? Oh right assholes.


You can't have it both ways. You can't claim Obama is playing 3 dimensional chess at all times. Only assholes do that.

LasersHurt: jigger: I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.

It also does not mean that they accidentally arrived here, or are bad at diplomacy like so many seem to want to assert. This is not an accident, and it's not "Putin's Plan" as some news organizations are selling it.

Not that credit matters so much as peaceful resolution, of course.


But they did accidentally arrive here. Thankfully.
 
2013-09-10 06:50:59 PM  

suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com

 
2013-09-10 06:51:50 PM  
Lt. Cheese Weasel:


I'm sorry that things didn't turn out more disastrous so that you could rub death and war in the faces of everyone who supports out President.
 
2013-09-10 06:51:51 PM  

Target Builder: Are they talking about Protocol II of the Geneva Convention? Or is there another chemical weapons convention?


The Chemical Weapons Convention is separate. In addition to the Geneva convention prohibitions on using CW, it also outlaws stockpiling and developing them. It also, IIRC, has verification mechanisms so it's not just a paper tiger.

So regarding this whole affair:
a) this is far from over. The resolutions by France and Russia are miles apart. This could all still fall apart.
b) they blundered into this solution, but it was a nifty intersection of mistake, circumstance, and initiative.
 
2013-09-10 06:51:59 PM  
Damn. Nevermind.
 
2013-09-10 06:54:57 PM  

jigger: SenorBenedict: Look there isn't a colum for "You won but you shouldn't have won." Its just wins and losses. If this goes through its a win for everyone who doesn't want chemical weapons in the middle east. Who the fark cares whose idea it was? Oh right assholes.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim Obama is playing 3 dimensional chess at all times. Only assholes do that.

LasersHurt: jigger: I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.

It also does not mean that they accidentally arrived here, or are bad at diplomacy like so many seem to want to assert. This is not an accident, and it's not "Putin's Plan" as some news organizations are selling it.

Not that credit matters so much as peaceful resolution, of course.

But they did accidentally arrive here. Thankfully.


You must have me confused for someone else? I didn't post anything about Obama playing chess. I posted its sad people are giving Putin credit over their own leader because they hate Obama. I almost wonder if it wasn't a plan worked out between Putin and Obama to deal with the Syria issue without either one coming off weak to their own country.
 
2013-09-10 06:55:25 PM  

jigger: But they did accidentally arrive here. Thankfully.


Okay, sure. Sure. Like I said, it doesn't matter, and you can have it your way if you need to.
 
2013-09-10 06:55:46 PM  

tjfly: Dinki: Obama rattled his sabre, scaring everybody about another war. He then had Kerry mentions off-handedly a peaceful way out- Syria hand over their chemical weapons. The Russians jumped on that idea, and once again Obama proves he's playing 3 dimensional chess while the rest of the world is playing checkers.

Kerry was on TV yesterday saying that Syria probably wouldn't gove up their chemical weapons only AFTER Putin offered this as a diplomatic solution, and Kerry's "saber rattling" was stating that the U.S. strike would be extremely small in scale... Whachoo smokin'?


Kerry said something in response to a question hours later Russia said "Hey what if we actually did that" and today Syria went "Hey, we'll at least say we're going to do that".

Don't know where you got your timeline here bub.
 
2013-09-10 06:55:57 PM  

Fart_Machine: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Liberal DerpCon5.

Putin's Proposal to the UN over Syrian Chemical weapons WAS ACTUALLY OBAMA'S!  GENIUS!!!!

I'm sure Putin would totally have made this proposal if we hadn't made a stink about it. After all a few weeks ago he denied Syria even used chemical weapons.


That "denial" is still in place today.

No one (Putin or Assad) ever claimed, that Syria did not have chemical weapons.
The only ones who spout that Assad "used" said weapons are USA and its allies.

This UN over site of Syria's CW does not equate to Syria having actually used CW at all.

So go smoke on that.
 
2013-09-10 06:59:29 PM  
I thought Syria denied up until possibly today or yesterday to even be in posession of chemical weapons (not using, but even having them) so if they are admitting they have them, that's at least new.
 
2013-09-10 07:00:14 PM  

Fart_Machine: I'm sure Putin would totally have made this proposal if we hadn't made a stink about it. After all a few weeks ago he denied Syria even used chemical weapons.


We didn't "make a stink about it" - John Kerry responded to an ABC reporters question by exasperatedly and jokingly saying that Asaad could avoid military action by giving up all his weapons within a week but that he would never do it. The state department then immediately came out and said "by the way, he wasn't making an offer he was being rhetorical" and Kerry called the Russians saying "Hey, I was just joking."

Putin and Asaad called their bluff and it is a win\win for Russia and Obama comes out looking only moderately foolish while weakening our position in them Middle East and ceding some of that position to Russia. Putin gets what he wants, Asaad left in power (in fact Asaad, today, carried out damaging air strikes against rebel positions where before the planes had been grounded fearing an American attack) and Putin becomes the major Actor and player in the region. You realize that part of Putins offer includes a resolution on our part not to use military action against Syria.

So you've got the government that probably sold the weapons to Asaad in the first place saying they're gonna look after them, you've got the Government that's been beating the war drums heavy and hard for two weeks now, suddenly going "well, we don't *really* need to punish him, just getting the chemical weapons is enough" and now you've got the Rebels, who we're training and arming, suddenly faced with unrestrained attacks by Asaad and left on their own.

This whole thing was bungled and amateurish, there's no way Obama can claim a win out of this, at best he can claim that he didn't lose as big as he could have.
 
2013-09-10 07:00:59 PM  

LasersHurt: jigger: I'm glad it worked out without the US getting into more bombing. But just because Obama and Kerry were able to save a little face in all this doesn't mean they're some kind of diplomatic geniuses.

It also does not mean that they accidentally arrived here, or are bad at diplomacy like so many seem to want to assert. This is not an accident, and it's not "Putin's Plan" as some news organizations are selling it.

Not that credit matters so much as peaceful resolution, of course.


I'm moderately happy in that the Russians were somewhat coerced into taking some responsibility for their client state. And that we didn't send in folks to bomb the crap out of folks already up their eyeballs in a round robin of conflict. There are no "good" sides in this mess, at least as far as US interests are concerned, and Russia stepping up is what should have happened at the outset. With Russia now on the hook, the Assad regime has embarrassed the Russians into cleaning up part of their mess, which means that the Eye of Sauron is pretty much on them. Which means that Russians will be making for damn sure to let them know to check their sh*t, because there is zero chance that they want the US, the French or the Brits anywhere near their Naval base, or interfering with their investments.

I said from the get go that nothing would happen without the Russians support, and that the issue was forced means that maybe the Russians will apply real pressure to end this mess.
 
2013-09-10 07:01:58 PM  

sno man: Peter von Nostrand: Oh great, now how will the war profiteers put food on their family? Hmmmmmmm? Any of you selfish peace freaks ever think of that? Of course not, all you're ever concerned with is yourselves. Bunch of jerk stores

All the cool kids are wearing meat this year?


They were born that way
 
2013-09-10 07:03:12 PM  

SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered


Obama did nothing. Nothing.

Kerry made an unscripted commebt and said X would never happen. His aides and the white house back tracked on the comment hours later saying it wasn't a real offer.

Putin calls Syria and forms an agreement.

Kerry and Obama backtrack on their backtrack and declare victory. Idiot liberals praise Obama.
 
2013-09-10 07:03:12 PM  
I'll just be glad if the chem weapons are removed. Means the AQ rebels won't have a chance of getting them, which is the real danger to begin with.
 
2013-09-10 07:04:13 PM  

MyRandomName: Obama did nothing. Nothing.


So you mean that Syria would have surrendered their stockpile of Chemical Weapons by themselves, without any pressure from the US. Okay.
 
2013-09-10 07:04:45 PM  

MyRandomName: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama did nothing. Nothing.

Kerry made an unscripted commebt and said X would never happen. His aides and the white house back tracked on the comment hours later saying it wasn't a real offer.

Putin calls Syria and forms an agreement.

Kerry and Obama backtrack on their backtrack and declare victory. Idiot liberals praise Obama.


I would hope that high level UN diplomats wouldn't post on Fark, but here you are with the inside scoop. Now I know why agenda 21 is so stalled.
 
2013-09-10 07:05:35 PM  
Is it still the position of President Barack Hussein Obama's administration that President Bashar Hafez al-Assad used chemical weapons on his own citizens? If it is, then bombs away.

Otherwise, allowing Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moualem to broker a deal like that is like letting a guy off for only using one bullet to kill another guy -- but only if he hands over the rest of his bullets to our competitor.
 
2013-09-10 07:05:58 PM  
Also remember. Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors too.
 
2013-09-10 07:06:10 PM  

rjucksch: tjfly: Thank YOU Pooty Poot!
Give that man a Nobel peace prize!

On cue:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/10/putin-is-one-who-really-de se rves-that-nobel-peace-prize/


Well it was his idea..... So......
 
2013-09-10 07:06:49 PM  
nancy pelosi already planted the flag and declared victory for president obama... that woman has no shame lol
 
2013-09-10 07:06:58 PM  

MyRandomName: Also remember. Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors too.


This isn't weapons inspectors.
 
2013-09-10 07:07:14 PM  

DarwiOdrade: rjucksch: tjfly: Thank YOU Pooty Poot!
Give that man a Nobel peace prize!

On cue:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/10/putin-is-one-who-really-de se rves-that-nobel-peace-prize/

That McFarland woman is the one who really deserves to be punched in the coont.


#beingliberal

Indeed cheering your win.
http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/syrians-divided-on-support-for-russ i an-move-but-appear-to-agree-it-has-undercut-obama/2013/09/10/6434849c- 1a47-11e3-80ac-96205cacb45a_story.html
 
2013-09-10 07:08:16 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Tonight's performance should be epic.


Totally epic.
Earn that Peace Prize, Caesar Obama!
 
2013-09-10 07:08:40 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.


*favorited!*
 
2013-09-10 07:08:53 PM  

DamnYankees: I'm still confused as to why anyone (i) thinks this is a "loss" for Obama or (ii) thinks about foreign policy in terms of political wins and losses and not substantive outcome.


Because some people see politics as a zero-sum game. The way my friend explained it to me is that if you win, you get three points, if you lose, your enemy gets three points, and if you compromise your enemy gets three points. The reason some people see it that way is because they are, well, assholes. The same sort of people who think they lost their job because of Affirmative Action.
 
2013-09-10 07:08:57 PM  
hey, maybe we can call this way of doing business "the accident doctrine" or something
 
2013-09-10 07:09:43 PM  

SenorBenedict: I thought Syria denied up until possibly today or yesterday to even be in posession of chemical weapons (not using, but even having them) so if they are admitting they have them, that's at least new.


as is fartbongo's interpretation of "red line"
 
2013-09-10 07:09:48 PM  

CanisNoir:
This whole thing was bungled and amateurish, there's no way Obama can claim a win out of this, at best he can claim that he didn't lose as big as he could have.


Perhaps they did stumble serendipitously into this situation, but Obama can definitely claim it as a win.

His choices before yesterday were (1) take us into another military adventure in the Middle East at a time when the US is feeling very isolationist, and particularly so regarding the Middle East, or (2) slink away from the "red line" comment and try his best to blame Congress.

Even if this was accidental, he skated out of a Kobayashi Maru scenario. And no matter how you slice that, that is about as win as it gets here.
 
2013-09-10 07:10:01 PM  
Also, so when the rebels use chemical weapons again, then ... DOH!
 
2013-09-10 07:10:02 PM  

mediablitz: Now on Fox News "Obama shows he is weak, is forced to allow Russia to dictate terms".


At noon today I was driving and listening to Randi Rhodes on KTLK 1150, who is pleased that Syria is going to get rid of their chemical weapons program, sign a treaty and submit to inspections and all that, and the US didn't have to fire a shot.

After a few minutes I thought I'd flip over to KABC 790 to see who was yapping on the right, and there I heard Sean Hannity ranting about how Obama should be embarrassed that Russia didn't allow him to get the missile strikes he wanted, rambled for a minute about Kerry and his gaffe, and then speculated that Syria has already begun moving the weapons outside their borders like Saddam Hussein did with the WMDs.  Oh, and he doubled down on the allegation that the sarin gas Assad used actually were the missing WMDs from Iraq.

It's like "okay, cool, we stuck up for humanity and international law without actually having to kill more people" versus "HURR OBAMA BAD DURR."
 
2013-09-10 07:10:14 PM  
I honestly don't give the first fark who gets the credit for this resolution, so long as it gets done.

That said, we always say that politics is just kabuki theater, so why make an exception in this case.

G20 summit convenes, Russia and America compare notes on the situation and devise a means for the Russians to offer a 'surprise' solution that lets them appear constructive and helpful and 'not' answering to the whims of the American government...

The American government gets what it wants without the military action.

The Syrian government gets to stay in power.

Israel is no longer potentially threatened by CW attack.

An equitable solution where everyone gets to look mature and adult-like, no blood is shed, no treasure is wasted, there's no change to the status quo and some very dangerous weapons are taken and destroyed.

With that firmly in mind, does anyone here think that any of this could have been brought to resolution without all parties actually acting responsibly for once?

But, again, who cares who gets the credit.  The weapons are being neutralized and in my book, that's the only thing that matters.
 
2013-09-10 07:10:37 PM  

tjfly: SenorBenedict: I thought Syria denied up until possibly today or yesterday to even be in posession of chemical weapons (not using, but even having them) so if they are admitting they have them, that's at least new.

as is fartbongo's interpretation of "red line"

 
2013-09-10 07:11:24 PM  

LasersHurt: tjfly: SenorBenedict: I thought Syria denied up until possibly today or yesterday to even be in posession of chemical weapons (not using, but even having them) so if they are admitting they have them, that's at least new.

as is fartbongo's interpretation of "red line"


How the hell did I post this, I don't remember clicking that.
 
2013-09-10 07:11:42 PM  
I can't decide if the "0bama has failed again, this guy doesn't deserve to be President" people or the "ahh this was Obama's plan all along, he's playing chess and the world is playing Go Fish!!!" people are more annoying. I mean, you're both delusional, but it's a tough call as to which is more annoying.

At least we aren't blowing anyone up...yet. For that I am grateful.
 
2013-09-10 07:12:18 PM  

MyRandomName: Also remember. Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors too.


Yeah and they were there and found nothing, yet an idiot cowboy in the whitehouse made up some shiat and away we went? So what are you saying Mr. Un Diplomat?
 
2013-09-10 07:12:19 PM  
man, this thread is one bright-red sea of Derp. Obama must have pissed off all the right people.
 
2013-09-10 07:12:27 PM  

SenorBenedict: HotIgneous Intruder: Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.

Stop, just stop. Your trolls are weaker than Christian Ponder's throws down field.


Hey now, C-Pond aired it out Sunday. He's not even in the top 10 noodle arms in the league!
 
2013-09-10 07:12:28 PM  

the_dude_abides: nancy pelosi already planted the flag and declared victory for president obama... that woman has no shame lol


Agreed, especially considering that the Asaad Regime couldn't guarantee the UN Inspectors safety when they went there to study the attacks, let alone while they dismantle and get rid of the chemical weapons caches. Anyone who think that will get done while Syria is in the midst of it's Civil War is fooling themselves. There are many things about this notion that scream "stalling tactic and no more".
 
2013-09-10 07:13:11 PM  
Gawd.

it must suck going through life as angry as i see a lot of Conservatives & Republicans being.

could you imagine?

wake up angry, go to sleep angry, there's a potentially peaceful solution to a serious international human rights issue angry.  did they want to see people killed? and if the CW situation wasn't resolved, more people gassed? so long as Obama is President during the act, sure.

and why, hate?  who in the hell harbors that much hate for one person?

no way to go through life son. it's not living.
 
2013-09-10 07:16:28 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Oh great, now how will the war profiteers put food on their family? Hmmmmmmm? Any of you selfish peace freaks ever think of that? Of course not, all you're ever concerned with is yourselves. Bunch of jerk stores


These bombs aren't going to drop themselves, people!
 
2013-09-10 07:16:54 PM  

Infernalist: But, again, who cares who gets the credit. The weapons are being neutralized and in my book, that's the only thing that matters.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-09-10 07:18:49 PM  

mediablitz: I can breathe a sigh of relief, knowing Syria will go back to conventional killing.


Yes, luckily it's impossible to hide chemical weapons.
 
2013-09-10 07:20:33 PM  
Syria is a mess, but however many chem weapons we can get out of that mess before it goes full retard is a win for the world. No matter who claims what.

There are no good sides in the battle for Syria, and the US should not be involved in picking winners or losers, put simply we are not very good at that in that region.
 
2013-09-10 07:21:42 PM  
obama sackriders pretending this outcome is some kind of masterstroke in the president's genius plan is the most sad and delusional derp i've seen in a long time... jebus, you mouth-breathers just went megaton in the special olympics
 
2013-09-10 07:22:39 PM  
I still think Obama should follow through on the alternative congressional resolution that authorizes force if Syria does not follow through.

Not so much for the additional gravitas, I think the way the situation has played out showed he doesn't need it, but rather to get all of congress to take a vote on record, especially the 7 senators and 40+ house members who publicly opposed the resolution after earlier criticizing Obama's "failure to act" in Syria.
 
2013-09-10 07:22:43 PM  

Infernalist: But, again, who cares who gets the credit.  The weapons are being neutralized and in my book, that's the only thing that matters.


i'm with that 100% but it's not a done deal yet... let's keep our fingers crossed
 
2013-09-10 07:23:57 PM  
This is amazing.  Obama and Kerry really know how to get shiat done.  Let's face it, our evidence that Assad ordered the chemical weapon attack was weak, too weak to convince the world that we needed to take the action we have threatened. Way too weak to convince Congress and the American people that we would attack.  But Putin and Assad are acting like air strikes were a done deal, no matter what happened in Congress, no matter that polls showed the American people were against strikes, not matter whether Assad used civilians as human shields, no matter all the threats of retaliation by Syria and its allies, they're were still convinced that Obama would attack if it was not absolutely clear that Assad's chemical weapons were taken from him.  That is the only reason why this deal was seized by the Russians and Syrians with both hands, like a drowning man thrown a rope.  This is a huge win for Obama, he turned a weak hand into a winning hand by forcing his opponents to throw in their cards.  And this is a great precedent for the world, use chemical weapons, and you will be treated like a child getting his toy taken away.  Great job, Obama team,
 
2013-09-10 07:31:07 PM  

lacrossestar83: Infernalist: But, again, who cares who gets the credit. The weapons are being neutralized and in my book, that's the only thing that matters.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 227x320]


O yea, let the dog-and-pony show begin! And don't skimp on the kool-aid. Refreshing!
 
2013-09-10 07:32:46 PM  

CanisNoir: Fart_Machine: I'm sure Putin would totally have made this proposal if we hadn't made a stink about it. After all a few weeks ago he denied Syria even used chemical weapons.

We didn't "make a stink about it" - John Kerry responded to an ABC reporters question by exasperatedly and jokingly saying that Asaad could avoid military action by giving up all his weapons within a week but that he would never do it. The state department then immediately came out and said "by the way, he wasn't making an offer he was being rhetorical" and Kerry called the Russians saying "Hey, I was just joking."

Putin and Asaad called their bluff and it is a win\win for Russia and Obama comes out looking only moderately foolish while weakening our position in them Middle East and ceding some of that position to Russia. Putin gets what he wants, Asaad left in power (in fact Asaad, today, carried out damaging air strikes against rebel positions where before the planes had been grounded fearing an American attack) and Putin becomes the major Actor and player in the region. You realize that part of Putins offer includes a resolution on our part not to use military action against Syria.

So you've got the government that probably sold the weapons to Asaad in the first place saying they're gonna look after them, you've got the Government that's been beating the war drums heavy and hard for two weeks now, suddenly going "well, we don't *really* need to punish him, just getting the chemical weapons is enough" and now you've got the Rebels, who we're training and arming, suddenly faced with unrestrained attacks by Asaad and left on their own.

This whole thing was bungled and amateurish, there's no way Obama can claim a win out of this, at best he can claim that he didn't lose as big as he could have.


Mostly agree. And yet, I like the outcome. The Powers That Be failed to get their war on. Diplomacy accidentally worked this time.
 
2013-09-10 07:34:58 PM  
I don't care who gets the credit or if it's a complete accident, I'm celebrating the US not bombing people.
 
2013-09-10 07:36:26 PM  

TFerWannaBe: I don't care who gets the credit or if it's a complete accident, I'm celebrating the US not bombing people.


Yeah, Obama's still gonna be heavy on the "They better do this, otherwise it's 'Bomb's Away'" tonight.
 
2013-09-10 07:36:27 PM  
This is weird...I can actually say that I submitted this with a better headline...
 
2013-09-10 07:36:28 PM  

MyRandomName: SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered

Obama did nothing. Nothing.

Kerry made an unscripted commebt and said X would never happen. His aides and the white house back tracked on the comment hours later saying it wasn't a real offer.

Putin calls Syria and forms an agreement.

Kerry and Obama backtrack on their backtrack and declare victory. Idiot liberals praise Obama.


Or, Obama and Putin have a chat at the G20 summit where they come up with a plan for Russia to pressure Syria to hand over the chemical weapons in exchange for no military strikes.  We get to avoid an unpopular war, and Russia gets to look like the hero swooping in to save the day.  Obama tells Kerry to make an offhand comment in his speech that the US would accept that course of action, but not to make it sound like an official policy statement so that the Russians can take credit.  Once the stage is set Putin goes to the Syrians and says that he thinks he can 'trap' the Americans into doing what we really wanted to do all along, and they agree.

Bingo-bango, it's done, and everyone gets what they wanted.
 
2013-09-10 07:37:37 PM  

TFerWannaBe: I don't care who gets the credit or if it's a complete accident, I'm celebrating the US not bombing people.


Well the sad part is Syria will still murder the shiat out of its own people, but it is a positive we also won't be killing Syrians. Again there is no good outcome in Syria outside of some Star Trek solution.
 
2013-09-10 07:40:02 PM  

SenorBenedict: Star Trek solution.


beam Assad onto the holodeck, put him in a CW scenario!
 
2013-09-10 07:47:34 PM  

SenorBenedict: TFerWannaBe: I don't care who gets the credit or if it's a complete accident, I'm celebrating the US not bombing people.

Well the sad part is Syria will still murder the shiat out of its own people, but it is a positive we also won't be killing Syrians. Again there is no good outcome in Syria outside of some Star Trek solution.


Totally true. It's bad news all around, but our involvement should be limited to helping civilians (assuming that's even possible) and arranging neutral ground for peace talks if necessary. Let the combatants sort out the rest.
 
2013-09-10 07:47:58 PM  

SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered


With all the killing in Syria, no wonder they are red.

/Plus aligned with Communist China and Russia, and all.
 
2013-09-10 07:52:21 PM  

gilgigamesh: Even if this was accidental, he skated out of a Kobayashi Maru scenario. And no matter how you slice that, that is about as win as it gets here.


I would still consider it to be laying along the "lose" axis not the win. Right now, there's no hope that the chemical weapons can be secured and removed because the security to do so isn't there, not to mention it took Libya 8 years to get rid of theirs, while there were not embroiled in a civil war and had far fewer chemical weapons. Meanwhile, military strikes are *completely* off the table for the foreseeable future because Putin is making that part of his initial offer; sure we're going to negotiate on that, but Asaad doesn't have to worry about it while we're negotiating, so effectively, he now has carte blanche to do what he pleases.

...and at the end of the day, there's no guarantee that we can agree on a negotiated settlement to this and we might be right back here in a few weeks to a month down the line. The presidents speech is only going to be 15 minutes and he's going to mention a "Russian led proposal" which tells me he's already back tracking and will hope for a change of topic while Syria flows to the background of the American psyche.

I don't feel so rosy about this; would like it to work out, but I'm quite cynical about it.
 
2013-09-10 07:55:19 PM  
How long until the rightwing lunatics say this was a conspiracy between Obama and Assad to make Obama look better?
 
2013-09-10 07:56:24 PM  

Befuddled: How long until the rightwing lunatics say this was a conspiracy between Obama and Assad to make Obama look better?


They're running with "it makes him look even worse, for reasons".
 
2013-09-10 08:05:50 PM  
Remember, you're either with the Obama calk suckers or your again' them.
No middle ground.
 
2013-09-10 08:05:55 PM  

LasersHurt: Befuddled: How long until the rightwing lunatics say this was a conspiracy between Obama and Assad to make Obama look better?

They're running with "it makes him look even worse, for reasons".


Sure, but today is Empty Suit Athiest Communist Day. Tomorrow is Islamofascist Dictator Day. Consistency has been the one hobgoblin the RWNJ's little minds haven't been haunted by.
 
2013-09-10 08:07:27 PM  

LasersHurt: Befuddled: How long until the rightwing lunatics say this was a conspiracy between Obama and Assad to make Obama look better?

They're running with "it makes him look even worse, for reasons".


But of course. That script was written several days weeks months years ago.
 
2013-09-10 08:10:21 PM  

SenorBenedict: MyRandomName: Also remember. Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors too.

Yeah and they were there and found nothing, yet an idiot cowboy in the whitehouse made up some shiat and away we went? So what are you saying Mr. Un Diplomat?


You got to wonder how far into the echo chamber MyRandomName  has wandered that he thinks the Iraqi Weapons inspectors failed. I'm betting he thinks WMD are still in Iraq, just really really well hidden.
 
2013-09-10 08:13:02 PM  
If we don't go to war I will be pissed because those brownies have it coming.

If we do go to war I will be pissed because those spineless appeasers in Congress won't seize on it as an opportunity to impeach 0bamao.

If we don't go to war I'll be pissed that the president is making us look bad by not following through.

If we don't go to war I'll be pissed because America still won't admit what a spineless flip-flopper Snobama is.

If we do go to war I'll be pissed because we're broke and can't afford it.

Ad nauseum
 
2013-09-10 08:22:22 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Or, Obama and Putin have a chat at the G20 summit where they come up with a plan for Russia to pressure Syria to hand over the chemical weapons in exchange for no military strikes.


that's a cute narrative, but let's look at the facts. kerry made the offer in an off-the-cuff remark. he finished by saying it's impossible and has no chance of happening. and then the state department walked it back immediately after the press conference was done.

sorry, but i'll say it again -- anyone claiming the outcome we're seeing here is the result of the president's political genius is completely and utterly delusional. this is, at best, a fortunate turn of events that an incompetent administration stumbled onto by accident.
 
2013-09-10 08:23:43 PM  
 
2013-09-10 08:26:51 PM  

the_dude_abides: sorry, but i'll say it again -- anyone claiming the outcome we're seeing here is the result of the president's political genius is completely and utterly delusional. this is, at best, a fortunate turn of events that an incompetent administration stumbled onto by accident.


This.
It wasn't Obama's eleven dimensional chess, it was pure Putin pulling the strings to make thins happen the way he needed to make them happen making Obama the Peace Prize winner look like a war stooge, which he is, but I digress.
 
2013-09-10 08:27:42 PM  

the_dude_abides: this is, at best, a fortunate turn of events that an incompetent administration stumbled onto by accident.


Wow, good thing we have such a brilliant geopolitical expert like you to tell us how this all played out. Otherwise we might think that Obama got exactly what he wanted without having to fire a shot.
 
2013-09-10 08:29:34 PM  

Agneska: lacrossestar83: Infernalist: But, again, who cares who gets the credit. The weapons are being neutralized and in my book, that's the only thing that matters.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 227x320]

O yea, let the dog-and-pony show begin! And don't skimp on the kool-aid. Refreshing!


Care to elaborate?
 
2013-09-10 08:29:44 PM  

LasersHurt: Befuddled: How long until the rightwing lunatics say this was a conspiracy between Obama and Assad to make Obama look better?

They're running with "it makes him look even worse, for reasons".


It kind of does if you have better than a middle-school grasp of the realpolitik going on here.
And there are very real and pretty huge reasons that Putin wins with Assad not bombed into hell and still able to be his lapdog.
 
2013-09-10 08:30:58 PM  

Dinki: SenorBenedict: MyRandomName: Also remember. Iraq agreed to weapons inspectors too.

Yeah and they were there and found nothing, yet an idiot cowboy in the whitehouse made up some shiat and away we went? So what are you saying Mr. Un Diplomat?

You got to wonder how far into the echo chamber MyRandomName  has wandered that he thinks the Iraqi Weapons inspectors failed. I'm betting he thinks WMD are still in Iraq, just really really well hidden.


My bet: he thinks they got shipped to Syria. As evidenced by the fact that they got used in Syria just recently. Note this doesn't preclude making the case that Syria didn't use them at a later date if necessary.
 
2013-09-10 08:32:08 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: It kind of does if you have better than a middle-school grasp of the realpolitik going on here.
And there are very real and pretty huge reasons that Putin wins with Assad not bombed into hell and still able to be his lapdog.


Remember folks, you got to study it out!
 
2013-09-10 08:32:20 PM  

Dinki: Wow, good thing we have such a brilliant geopolitical expert like you to tell us how this all played out. Otherwise we might think that Obama got exactly what he wanted without having to fire a shot.


uhh... go read a few posts up where i said that this isn't a done deal and it's not time to claim victory yet. obama hasn't gotten anything yet, neither has anyone else. there's a deal in the works right now, but that's it. in fact, russia is in the process of drafting their own resolution because they don't like the strong wording france put forward. it's all pretty delicate at this point.
 
2013-09-10 08:33:46 PM  

Dinki: HotIgneous Intruder: It kind of does if you have better than a middle-school grasp of the realpolitik going on here.
And there are very real and pretty huge reasons that Putin wins with Assad not bombed into hell and still able to be his lapdog.

Remember folks, you got to study it out!


I said it was because "reasons." Turns out I was right.
 
2013-09-10 08:34:48 PM  
Obama didn't really want to go to war?
 
2013-09-10 08:35:25 PM  
Good news, now Assad will have to kill people with conventional weapons. After all, having half your body blown off by a bomb and slowly dying in a pile of your own insides is so much better than choking on some chemicals.
 
2013-09-10 08:35:35 PM  

the_dude_abides: obama sackriders pretending this outcome is some kind of masterstroke in the president's genius plan is the most sad and delusional derp i've seen in a long time... jebus, you mouth-breathers just went megaton in the special olympics


I love it.  All you do is complain about libtards and obama shills while everyone else is actually having an honest discussion.  I'm sure the irony is not lost on you.
 
2013-09-10 08:36:13 PM  
Bashar Assad has surely learned his lesson, and will elevate the Kremlin from "speed dial" to "special red phone" whenever he's confronted with international outcry.
 
2013-09-10 08:37:15 PM  

freak7: Good news, now Assad will have to kill people with conventional weapons. After all, having half your body blown off by a bomb and slowly dying in a pile of your own insides is so much better than choking on some chemicals.


The good news is, assuming this actually happens, CW won't be in danger of getting in the hands of terrorists.  I don't think we should be involved at all militarily, what about you?
 
2013-09-10 08:38:41 PM  

the_dude_abides: TuteTibiImperes: Or, Obama and Putin have a chat at the G20 summit where they come up with a plan for Russia to pressure Syria to hand over the chemical weapons in exchange for no military strikes.

that's a cute narrative, but let's look at the facts. kerry made the offer in an off-the-cuff remark. he finished by saying it's impossible and has no chance of happening. and then the state department walked it back immediately after the press conference was done.

sorry, but i'll say it again -- anyone claiming the outcome we're seeing here is the result of the president's political genius is completely and utterly delusional. this is, at best, a fortunate turn of events that an incompetent administration stumbled onto by accident.


Fine, but I'll still take the results of Obama's accidental diplomacy over the GOP's intentional incompetence that bungled us into a decade of land war in Iraq.

Any. Farking. Day. Of. The. Week.
 
2013-09-10 08:40:32 PM  

Almost Everybody Poops: I love it.  All you do is complain about libtards and obama shills while everyone else is actually having an honest discussion.  I'm sure the irony is not lost on you.


lol in fark politics "everyone else is actually having an honest discussion" = democrats patting each other on the back and agreeing with one another

plus i just love talking shiat, can't you tell?
 
2013-09-10 08:41:13 PM  
The first opening move on the political chess board; and already the libtards are calling it a win for Obama,

\Drew, educate your kids for chrissake
 
2013-09-10 08:41:52 PM  

another cultural observer: Bashar Assad has surely learned his lesson, and will elevate the Kremlin from "speed dial" to "special red phone" whenever he's confronted with international outcry.


Right, because before this Syria and Russia were barely speaking and now they are BFFs.
 
2013-09-10 08:44:55 PM  

udhq: Fine, but I'll still take the results of Obama's accidental diplomacy over the GOP's intentional incompetence that bungled us into a decade of land war in Iraq.

Any. Farking. Day. Of. The. Week.


There.  I don't by any means consider this a "victory" for Obama, but a favorable-but-unintended outcome is preferable than a war nobody really wanted, or complete inaction when a psychopathic despot starts gassing his own people.
 
2013-09-10 08:45:43 PM  

LasersHurt: Dinki: HotIgneous Intruder: It kind of does if you have better than a middle-school grasp of the realpolitik going on here.
And there are very real and pretty huge reasons that Putin wins with Assad not bombed into hell and still able to be his lapdog.

Remember folks, you got to study it out!

I said it was because "reasons." Turns out I was right.


So you're saying you don't understand why Putin did this.
 
2013-09-10 08:46:24 PM  
It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up hitting Syria anyway.
 
2013-09-10 08:46:55 PM  

udhq: Fine, but I'll still take the results of Obama's accidental diplomacy over the GOP's intentional incompetence that bungled us into a decade of land war in Iraq.

Any. Farking. Day. Of. The. Week.


hey, you remember when gaddafi gave up his chemical weapons program because bush leaned on him and he was afraid of being invaded like iraq?

the thing you're celebrating -- which btw hasn't happened yet in the case of syria -- is something bush actually accomplished last decade. what results are YOU talking about? obama getting himself out of a situation he got into in the first place?
 
2013-09-10 08:47:17 PM  

LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY


....."besmirched"???
 
2013-09-10 08:49:10 PM  

freak7: Good news, now Assad will have to kill people with conventional weapons. After all, having half your body blown off by a bomb and slowly dying in a pile of your own insides is so much better than choking on some chemicals.


You do realize the US Civil War was the bloodiest in American history and the Government won. That was fought with muskets and 12 and 24 PD canon for the most part.

Small release of chemical weapons aren't the problem, the problem would be if their use became normalized. I read somewhere at one point in the cold war an exchange of CW could kill millions of people in Germany as well as the pollen carrying insects. Some CW have a slow deterioration rate so they can be toxic for a week or so.. It's a bad road to go down. I'm glad we have an option now other than bombing the Syrian government forces and actually increasing the chance that CW would fall into terrorist hands.
 
2013-09-10 08:49:50 PM  
cameroncrazy1984
Obama lost because furthermore

Because the geo-political goal was to bomb the Ba'ath party's military, because they're kicking the shiat out of the rebels since Hezbollah entered the war. The CWs were an excuse.
 
2013-09-10 08:50:25 PM  

Gyrfalcon: LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY

....."besmirched"???


Besmirched.
Study it out.
 
2013-09-10 08:51:19 PM  

Gyrfalcon: LasersHurt: Tigger: hubiestubert: It avoids a loss of face for the Russians, it gives Obama a "carry a big stick" win, and it allows the Syrians to not get the sh*t "liberated" out of themselves.

Clearly this is intolerable, so we will see this spun as the horriblest thing to happen since the $63,000,000 dog walking for the First Puppy...

If Neil Armstrong had been black these guys would have declared the Apollo missions to be the low point of American achievement.

MOON BESMIRCHED BY ASTRONAUT PROXIMITY

....."besmirched"???


It's not entirely inappropriate. I suppose Befouled would be better though.
 
2013-09-10 08:58:12 PM  
Fox News front page:
"HITTING 'PAUSE' ON STRIKE VOTE Obama to ask Congress to hold off"

"Secretary of State Kerry now claims credit for Syria weapons proposal"

"OPINION: Putin deserves that Nobel Prize"

" VIDEO: What Obama must say"

"KURTZ: Obama's muddled message"

They're pretty upset.
 
2013-09-10 08:59:29 PM  

the_dude_abides: Almost Everybody Poops: I love it.  All you do is complain about libtards and obama shills while everyone else is actually having an honest discussion.  I'm sure the irony is not lost on you.

lol in fark politics "everyone else is actually having an honest discussion" = democrats patting each other on the back and agreeing with one another

plus i just love talking shiat, can't you tell?


Your problem is you focus on one side of the "honest discussion" and blast it as if that's what I was talking about.  The "honest discussion" I see is on whether or not this is an overall win or loss for Obama and the skepticism of Russia/Syria following through.

But yeah, I agree with your second point.
 
2013-09-10 09:05:11 PM  

the_dude_abides: udhq: Fine, but I'll still take the results of Obama's accidental diplomacy over the GOP's intentional incompetence that bungled us into a decade of land war in Iraq.

Any. Farking. Day. Of. The. Week.

hey, you remember when gaddafi gave up his chemical weapons program because bush leaned on him and he was afraid of being invaded like iraq?

the thing you're celebrating -- which btw hasn't happened yet in the case of syria -- is something bush actually accomplished last decade. what results are YOU talking about? obama getting himself out of a situation he got into in the first place?


Go ahead and believe what you want, but you're living in a fantasy world if you honestly think the "red line" bit or Kerry's comments were accidents.
 
2013-09-10 09:06:53 PM  
absolutely, 100%, no doubt the best possible outcome in this situation if it actually comes to pass and we are able to verify and continue verifying the abandonment of weapons programs
 
2013-09-10 09:09:04 PM  

gilgigamesh: man, this thread is one bright-red sea of Derp. Obama must have pissed off all the right people.


That's the key to success: when all the derpy trolls are in more of a fervor than usual, Democrats have done something right.
 
2013-09-10 09:10:05 PM  
Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?
 
2013-09-10 09:11:09 PM  

sendtodave: Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?


Transdimensional chess. He plays it with both hands at once.
 
2013-09-10 09:12:27 PM  
It seems like the arguments in this thread about how well Obama did come down to deciding whether it's better to be able to dig yourself out of the holes you get yourself into, or to be able to avoid getting into holes in the first place.My view: fair play to Obama and Putin for sorting this shiat out without it having to come to stuff getting blown up, a nice bit of choreography they've got going on. A long way short of the multi-dimensional chess strategy some are claiming, but at least the end result could be positive.**By positive, I don't actually mean 'good' so much as 'not as bad as it could have been'
 
2013-09-10 09:14:32 PM  
Obama just keeps on WINNING
I can't wait to taste the Republican tears tomorrow.
 
2013-09-10 09:16:44 PM  

SnakeLee: So Obama avoided war, got a rouge nation to give up all of their chemical weapons and successfully worked with Russia with whom relations are strained with at the moment.  All of that while not really spending any money.  Clearly, he was outmaneuvered


I hate rouge nations, mascara nations, and eyeliner nations!!
 
2013-09-10 09:18:30 PM  

the_dude_abides: TuteTibiImperes: Or, Obama and Putin have a chat at the G20 summit where they come up with a plan for Russia to pressure Syria to hand over the chemical weapons in exchange for no military strikes.

that's a cute narrative, but let's look at the facts. kerry made the offer in an off-the-cuff remark. he finished by saying it's impossible and has no chance of happening. and then the state department walked it back immediately after the press conference was done.

sorry, but i'll say it again -- anyone claiming the outcome we're seeing here is the result of the president's political genius is completely and utterly delusional. this is, at best, a fortunate turn of events that an incompetent administration stumbled onto by accident.


Except that Obama spoke to Putin regarding this solution way back at the G20 summit.  It sounds like there was a plan in the works to me.
 
2013-09-10 09:18:51 PM  
Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?
 
2013-09-10 09:20:15 PM  

Begoggle: Obama just keeps on WINNING
I can't wait to taste the Republican tears tomorrow.


you can probably get the HIV that way
 
2013-09-10 09:20:20 PM  
A big part of the art of politics is getting the results you want while ensuring that your opponents don't come off as losers. If everyone wins (in truth or appearances) you have been successful.

In the end, it doesn't matter if Obama is a chess master or backwards bumbled into this. Everyone came out the winner, assuming it goes through.

Everyone except for the Super Patriots who are willing to cheer on ANY destruction of this country just to prove their point. It's quite horrifying, really, to see the amount pent up rage against Obama in this situation....and yet those same people truly belive that Reagan took down the Berlin Wall with his bare hands.
 
2013-09-10 09:20:22 PM  

skullkrusher: sendtodave: Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?

Transdimensional chess. He plays it with both hands at once.


I'm more questioning the support. And the weird rationalizations.

"We should go to war." "Right on! Flex your muscles, Obama!"

"Never mind." "Brilliant! Way to outfox them, Obama! We never wanted war at all!"
 
2013-09-10 09:22:01 PM  

sendtodave: skullkrusher: sendtodave: Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?

Transdimensional chess. He plays it with both hands at once.

I'm more questioning the support. And the weird rationalizations.

"We should go to war." "Right on! Flex your muscles, Obama!"

"Never mind." "Brilliant! Way to outfox them, Obama! We never wanted war at all!"


keep walking through it. I think you'll come up with an explanation as to why some people say such apparently contradictory things.
 
2013-09-10 09:22:22 PM  
There are some real idiots in this country.

If you don't think that Kerry's statement wasn't purposely floated out there for the world to hear the US was willing to give Assad a way to end this that didn't involve Tomahawks reigning down on him and him being hunted like Saddam, then you are a fool. And yes Putin was probably involved in the planning.
 
2013-09-10 09:25:14 PM  

ongbok: There are some real idiots in this country.

If you don't think that Kerry's statement wasn't purposely floated out there for the world to hear the US was willing to give Assad a way to end this that didn't involve Tomahawks reigning down on him and him being hunted like Saddam, then you are a fool. And yes Putin was probably involved in the planning.


in text it didn't appear that way. Watching the tape, it certainly did.
 
2013-09-10 09:26:31 PM  
Ok, cool. If that's true, my faith is restored somewhat. And all you guys who supported Obama and kerry in their case for war can go blow. Because apparently he didn't even want that.

Useful idiots should at least be useful.
 
2013-09-10 09:27:19 PM  

skullkrusher: sendtodave: skullkrusher: sendtodave: Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?

Transdimensional chess. He plays it with both hands at once.

I'm more questioning the support. And the weird rationalizations.

"We should go to war." "Right on! Flex your muscles, Obama!"

"Never mind." "Brilliant! Way to outfox them, Obama! We never wanted war at all!"

keep walking through it. I think you'll come up with an explanation as to why some people say such apparently contradictory things.


Shills gonna shill.
 
2013-09-10 09:30:43 PM  

justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?


On what grounds?
 
2013-09-10 09:33:36 PM  
This is a brilliant move by both Putin and Assad.  Assad declares HIS chemical weapons, allowing Russia (?) to store them out of control of Syria; all this knowing any WMD's declared can be replaced by the Iraqi WMDs transferred to Syria 10 years ago, thus living up to his word and still having a chemical arsenal..

Winning!

//Should the transfer of WMDs take place, this probably is the best we can hope for in this situation.. IMO.
 
2013-09-10 09:42:08 PM  

CanisNoir: Fart_Machine: I'm sure Putin would totally have made this proposal if we hadn't made a stink about it. After all a few weeks ago he denied Syria even used chemical weapons.

We didn't "make a stink about it" - John Kerry responded to an ABC reporters question by exasperatedly and jokingly saying that Asaad could avoid military action by giving up all his weapons within a week but that he would never do it. The state department then immediately came out and said "by the way, he wasn't making an offer he was being rhetorical" and Kerry called the Russians saying "Hey, I was just joking."

Putin and Asaad called their bluff and it is a win\win for Russia and Obama comes out looking only moderately foolish while weakening our position in them Middle East and ceding some of that position to Russia. Putin gets what he wants, Asaad left in power (in fact Asaad, today, carried out damaging air strikes against rebel positions where before the planes had been grounded fearing an American attack) and Putin becomes the major Actor and player in the region. You realize that part of Putins offer includes a resolution on our part not to use military action against Syria.

So you've got the government that probably sold the weapons to Asaad in the first place saying they're gonna look after them, you've got the Government that's been beating the war drums heavy and hard for two weeks now, suddenly going "well, we don't *really* need to punish him, just getting the chemical weapons is enough" and now you've got the Rebels, who we're training and arming, suddenly faced with unrestrained attacks by Asaad and left on their own.

This whole thing was bungled and amateurish, there's no way Obama can claim a win out of this, at best he can claim that he didn't lose as big as he could have.


I would say threatening military action would be quite the stink. And if Russia and Syria wanted to "call our bluff" they would have waited for the vote to go to Congress. Since they didn't and decided to broker a deal it looks like they took the threat seriously.
 
2013-09-10 09:57:29 PM  

udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?


Being the Secretary of State to a black man.
 
2013-09-10 10:03:31 PM  

udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?


Giving Assad an out?  Putin an opportunity to look like a deal maker? Smoking the stock prices of all those military suppliers?
 
2013-09-10 10:04:54 PM  
images.nationalgeographic.com

Thanks Putin
 
2013-09-10 10:05:35 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Except that Obama spoke to Putin regarding this solution way back at the G20 summit.  It sounds like there was a plan in the works to me.


they may have spoken about a diplomatic solution in general terms, but there was no specific plan made at the g20 summit like you suggest. the syria deal was completely unexpected. kerry, white house staffers, and the state department have all said so.

did you see that obama did 6 interviews yesterday with all the major networks? did you watch his speech just now? obama was supposed to make the case for why congress had to vote for an authorization of force in syria -- that was the plan. instead, his big action item was to put the vote on hold -- that was the response to an unexpected turn of events. one of the running jokes in the news cycle today was that obama speechwriters were scrambling to rewrite the speech around the late-breaking developments regarding this potential deal. it makes no sense that these changes had to be worked in if the plan all along was what we're seeing play out.

like i said, there was no master plan, just a lucky break.
 
2013-09-10 10:20:06 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-09-10 10:37:02 PM  

sendtodave: skullkrusher: sendtodave: Really, I'm confused.

Just a few days ago I was called a right wing fascist for not supporting Obama's drums for war. That was confusing enough. Now that US military action have been, thankfully, diverted, I'm reading that it is Obama's master stroke or something. Which is more confusing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad of the outcome. But I though we had to go save those poor people, or something?

Is this just a case of shills gonna shill?

Transdimensional chess. He plays it with both hands at once.

I'm more questioning the support. And the weird rationalizations.

"We should go to war." "Right on! Flex your muscles, Obama!"

"Never mind." "Brilliant! Way to outfox them, Obama! We never wanted war at all!"


Yeah, pretty sure you're thinking about a strawman. I think it was more like going from:
"Going to war would suck, but we have to ensure that Syria stops using CW."

To:
"Awesome, we get to avoid war and Syria stops using CW."
 
2013-09-10 10:40:10 PM  
assad was lying about even having WMD. then he lied about using CW.

now he is lying about stopping production of CW and turning over current stockpiles and disclosing locations of storage.

he has bought himself a bunch of time just so obama can pretend to save face over his red line crap.

i dont support intervention, but let's not be naieve that assad is going to give up his wmd.
 
2013-09-10 10:42:44 PM  

jpo2269: This is a brilliant move by both Putin and Assad.  Assad declares HIS chemical weapons, allowing Russia (?) to store them out of control of Syria; all this knowing any WMD's declared can be replaced by the Iraqi WMDs transferred to Syria 10 years ago, thus living up to his word and still having a chemical arsenal..

Winning!

//Should the transfer of WMDs take place, this probably is the best we can hope for in this situation.. IMO.


Dude, you do know that CWs don't last forever, right? That they have a half life, which is, more or less, the scientific way of saying they have an expiration date? Any sarin or VX that could have come from Iraq would be well past the "use by" date by now, and pretty much rendered inert.

/farking science, how does it work?
 
2013-09-10 10:46:11 PM  

Dinki: another cultural observer: Bashar Assad has surely learned his lesson, and will elevate the Kremlin from "speed dial" to "special red phone" whenever he's confronted with international outcry.

Right, because before this Syria and Russia were barely speaking and now they are BFFs.


Speed dial hardly denotes "barely speaking"....Are you foreign?
 
2013-09-10 10:47:37 PM  
and further, assad and the rebels have discovered that the world has no will to interfere the next time they decide to use CW.

Seriously, the tokyo subway atacks demonsrrated that sarin is easy to make and not much is required to do real damage. all assad has to do is turn over 60% of his stockpile and say that's all he has. he doesn't need that much anyway to kill a bunch of civilians.
 
2013-09-10 10:48:48 PM  

sno man: udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?

Giving Assad an out?  Putin an opportunity to look like a deal maker? Smoking the stock prices of all those military suppliers?


How much face do you think he has lost in Israel and Palestine? He makes an offhand suggestion, his own staff walks it back as a rhetoric (funny how everybody has forgotten that part), his president contradicts him public, he talks about 'unbelievably tiny' strikes?
 
2013-09-10 10:51:24 PM  

sno man: udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?

Giving Assad an out?  Putin an opportunity to look like a deal maker? Smoking the stock prices of all those military suppliers?


If all this was all pre-planned 11 dimensional chess, why didn't Obama wait till his own speech to make a big announcement and catch everybody by surprise? Why use Kerry and that too, in such a peculiar half-baked manner? Apparently it was all discussed and agreed with the Russians in advance.
 
2013-09-10 10:57:06 PM  

CanisNoir: Meanwhile, military strikes are *completely* off the table for the foreseeable future because Putin is making that part of his initial offer; sure we're going to negotiate on that, but Asaad doesn't have to worry about it while we're negotiating, so effectively, he now has carte blanche to do what he pleases.


Except use CW..
 
2013-09-10 11:00:36 PM  
Republicans really are upset by this. They so wanted to see dead American soldiers on the news so that they could shove it in Obama's face and now it's (most likely) not going to happen. And they can't stand it. Want proof? Just look at the way the right wingers are handling themselves in this thread, unable to appreciate that there might be a solution that doesn't involve the military.

Any way you cut it, whether Obama's a foreign policy genius or whether he merely stumbled on this solution, it's a good outcome to a shiatty situation. Not perfect, nobody's going to argue that it's perfect (but what in this world ever is), but it's pretty much the best outcome anyone could have hoped for. Putin gets to take credit for disarming and dismantling Assad's CW stockpiles, Assad doesn't get the shiat liberated out of him (apologies to whomever originally posted that upthread, but that's too good not to borrow), and the US gets to avoid another military excursion in the Middle East; it's a win-win-win.

/Serious about the "get the shiat liberated out of them" line, totally gonna be using that in conversation tomorrow.
//I'd look up whomever said it, but I'm farking fom my phone and it's kind of a hassle on the mobile site (ie, I'm drunk as a skunk).
 
2013-09-10 11:02:12 PM  

voristrupp: he has bought himself a bunch of time just so obama can pretend to save face over his red line crap.


Brilliant! It's obvious that the only reason Assad is doing this is so Obama can save face. I can't believe I didn't see it before.
 
2013-09-10 11:06:39 PM  

justaguy516: sno man: udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?

Giving Assad an out?  Putin an opportunity to look like a deal maker? Smoking the stock prices of all those military suppliers?

How much face do you think he has lost in Israel and Palestine?


None. and Less than none respectively.

He makes an offhand suggestion, his own staff walks it back as a rhetoric (funny how everybody has forgotten that part), his president contradicts him public, he talks about 'unbelievably tiny' strikes?

yea and?  Obama gets to back off his red line, without looking too bad, Kerry gets to take credit for being the first to say it, Putin gets to say it was his idea and not get into a proxy war they can't afford. And like it or not, Assad at the moment is relatively stabilizing Syria.  There are too many factions all wanting some of the pie, until the rebels can unite, or one faction steps up, removing Assad would leave too big a vacuum.  And an even uglier war.
 
2013-09-10 11:08:13 PM  

voristrupp: and further, assad and the rebels have discovered that the world has no will to interfere the next time they decide to use CW.

Seriously, the tokyo subway atacks demonsrrated that sarin is easy to make and not much is required to do real damage. all assad has to do is turn over 60% of his stockpile and say that's all he has. he doesn't need that much anyway to kill a bunch of civilians.


So let's bomb them anyway, is what you're saying?

Are you for going to war with Syria, or just pissed that we're NOT?
 
2013-09-10 11:10:50 PM  

justaguy516: sno man: udhq: justaguy516: Anybody else think that Kerry should be fired now?

On what grounds?

Giving Assad an out?  Putin an opportunity to look like a deal maker? Smoking the stock prices of all those military suppliers?

If all this was all pre-planned 11 dimensional chess, why didn't Obama wait till his own speech to make a big announcement and catch everybody by surprise? Why use Kerry and that too, in such a peculiar half-baked manner? Apparently it was all discussed and agreed with the Russians in advance.


I'm sure none of it was pre-planned but more like hey look lemons... lets make lemonade. And EVERYONE was thirsty.
 
2013-09-10 11:14:39 PM  

Gyrfalcon: voristrupp: and further, assad and the rebels have discovered that the world has no will to interfere the next time they decide to use CW.

Seriously, the tokyo subway atacks demonsrrated that sarin is easy to make and not much is required to do real damage. all assad has to do is turn over 60% of his stockpile and say that's all he has. he doesn't need that much anyway to kill a bunch of civilians.

So let's bomb them anyway, is what you're saying?

Are you for going to war with Syria, or just pissed that we're NOT?


I think he's pissed that he can't be pissed about Obama bombing Syria.
 
2013-09-10 11:43:09 PM  
i do not support bombing syria or war with syria.
i do not think the US should be in this mess at all especially since the other side is al queda.

however, it is incredibly naieve to think assad is suddenly going to find jesus and come clean and disclose his CW stockpiles.

i mean, he has lied all along about having them and about using them. lying doesn't bother him, gassing his own people doesn't either.

syria's intermal conflicts are none of our concern, but in no way is this a solution.


obama loves the idea because he doesn't have to follow through on his threats.

assad loves the idea because it buys him time, he gets to lie about his CW stockpiles, and stonewall inspectors until he needs to gas someone again.

i just want for us to not be stupid enough to think this guy is going to turn over his CWs.
 
2013-09-10 11:43:18 PM  
I am astounded by the amount of stupidity of many of the posts in this thread.  I really don't know what to say other than that.

Yeah I know.  Welcome to fark.

/several of you have read between the lines pretty well...so kudos.  Special kudos to the brainiacs who are in favor of having the UN be in control of WMD during a civil war...great work there.
 
2013-09-10 11:44:13 PM  
i'm sure assad is also pleased that he got away with using chemical weapons.
 
2013-09-10 11:53:15 PM  
And by "great", I mean "if you want to get laughed out of the room" great.
 
2013-09-10 11:53:25 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.


North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.
 
2013-09-10 11:56:06 PM  

justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.


And Syria does?
 
2013-09-10 11:57:36 PM  
Well we could really confirm that they could satasify our request in a timely or sufficient manor...here comes a bomb, boom biatches
 
2013-09-11 12:04:06 AM  
I am not going to sleep tonight.  The questions remains...do you want real, no shiat, results in lessening the threat?  We can wait...let the UN attempt to secure every last CW in Syria without the security necessary to do so, while they build a CW destruction facility and secure chain of custody of the munitions the entire time.   During a civil war.

Or the other thing.

The laws of war....their is one law of war.....WIN.
 
2013-09-11 12:05:05 AM  
Their=there...sorry...
 
2013-09-11 12:16:04 AM  

vygramul: justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.

And Syria does?


Uh, yes. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is in Syrian territory. It is one of the main reasons the Russians are so invested in this situation.
 
2013-09-11 12:25:42 AM  
The OPCW and the UN are totally unprepared to accomplish this supposed mission to secure and destroy Syrian CW.  End of story.  And to anyone who points to the UN as some beacon of solution to world politics, I have found them to be nothing but a hindrance in every respect.  Real world.  Not a surprise.
 
2013-09-11 12:27:08 AM  

JohnnyBravo: I am not going to sleep tonight.  The questions remains...do you want real, no shiat, results in lessening the threat?  We can wait...let the UN attempt to secure every last CW in Syria without the security necessary to do so, while they build a CW destruction facility and secure chain of custody of the munitions the entire time.   During a civil war.

Or the other thing.

The laws of war....their is one law of war.....WIN.


Ummm, we're going to let Russia attempt to secure and destroy Syria's CW stockpile. And Syria pretty much has no choice but to do as Putin says. Russia's basically their only source of weapons/ammunition and they are in the middle of a civil war; reneging on this deal would mean suicide for the Assad regime.

And it's not like Russia doesn't have experience helping other countries dispose of their nuclear/chemical weapons, look at all the times they did this for former Soviet states after the Cold War ended.
 
2013-09-11 12:36:09 AM  
Ummm, (if I can respectfully disagree), we will not allow "the Russians" to solely secure and destroy the Syrian CW stockpile.  Will not happen.  It can only be politically done via the UN and OPCW.  The Russians are good at CW...75% of their stockpile is destroyed under OPCW inspection.  We are good at CW too...I dont have time to wear my fingers to the nub to prove that I know.

The Russians have run rings around the State Dept on this.  No doubt about it.  Putin and his friends are very skilled at world diplonacy.  It is embarrassing.
 
2013-09-11 12:46:05 AM  

glmorrs1: JohnnyBravo: I am not going to sleep tonight.  The questions remains...do you want real, no shiat, results in lessening the threat?  We can wait...let the UN attempt to secure every last CW in Syria without the security necessary to do so, while they build a CW destruction facility and secure chain of custody of the munitions the entire time.   During a civil war.

Or the other thing.

The laws of war....their is one law of war.....WIN.

Ummm, we're going to let Russia attempt to secure and destroy Syria's CW stockpile. And Syria pretty much has no choice but to do as Putin says. Russia's basically their only source of weapons/ammunition and they are in the middle of a civil war; reneging on this deal would mean suicide for the Assad regime.

And it's not like Russia doesn't have experience helping other countries dispose of their nuclear/chemical weapons, look at all the times they did this for former Soviet states after the Cold War ended.


Plus, if Syria openly obstructs inspectors or is stupid enough to use CWs again the case for strikes and even regime-change has become much, much stronger.

Make no mistake, Assad has no choice but to cooperate to the satisfaction of the international community. If Assad backs out congress and even Russia will essentially have no choice but to consent to strikes.

This deal absolutely ends the threat of Assad using CWs again. As such, it is a big blow to his capability to fight the civil war.
 
2013-09-11 12:56:25 AM  

max_pooper: Gyrfalcon: voristrupp: and further, assad and the rebels have discovered that the world has no will to interfere the next time they decide to use CW.

Seriously, the tokyo subway atacks demonsrrated that sarin is easy to make and not much is required to do real damage. all assad has to do is turn over 60% of his stockpile and say that's all he has. he doesn't need that much anyway to kill a bunch of civilians.

So let's bomb them anyway, is what you're saying?

Are you for going to war with Syria, or just pissed that we're NOT?

I think he's pissed that he can't be pissed about Obama bombing Syria.


In fairness, he DID spoil the chances of complaining bitterly about how badly Hillary and wimminfolk do in the Big Chair. He single handed derailed nearly a generation of attack ads that were planned, so there is that. That's a lot of rage to displace, after about 20 years of waiting...
 
2013-09-11 12:58:04 AM  

JohnnyBravo: Ummm, (if I can respectfully disagree), we will not allow "the Russians" to solely secure and destroy the Syrian CW stockpile.  Will not happen.  It can only be politically done via the UN and OPCW.  The Russians are good at CW...75% of their stockpile is destroyed under OPCW inspection.  We are good at CW too...I dont have time to wear my fingers to the nub to prove that I know.

The Russians have run rings around the State Dept on this.  No doubt about it.  Putin and his friends are very skilled at world diplonacy.  It is embarrassing.


I should have been more clear, the current deal on the table is that Syria put their CW stockpile under international control, which does mean the UN, but headed up by Russia in particular because of their relationship and close proximity to Syria, and their experience with such things. Yeah, we've got experience with this stuff too, but we are half a world away.

Don't know what you mean by they've "run rings around the State Dept" or what's so embarrassing about this, though. Every indication is that Obama and Putin discussed this very resolution at the G20 summit.
 
2013-09-11 12:59:43 AM  
Question:  Is it the assuption that our "stirikes" will remove the CW threat entirelly?
 
2013-09-11 01:04:48 AM  

max_pooper: Gyrfalcon: voristrupp: and further, assad and the rebels have discovered that the world has no will to interfere the next time they decide to use CW.

Seriously, the tokyo subway atacks demonsrrated that sarin is easy to make and not much is required to do real damage. all assad has to do is turn over 60% of his stockpile and say that's all he has. he doesn't need that much anyway to kill a bunch of civilians.

So let's bomb them anyway, is what you're saying?

Are you for going to war with Syria, or just pissed that we're NOT?

I think he's pissed that he can't be pissed about Obama bombing Syria.


I think this puts the hammer squarely on the nail. I wonder how many premature ejaculations turned into a nasty case of blue balls at the sudden realization that they weren't going to be able to use pictures of dead Syrians against the Democratic candidate in 2014...and how bad some people were going to look at (again) being spotlighted as the warmongering death-lovers they most obviously are.
 
2013-09-11 01:19:24 AM  

JohnnyBravo: Question:  Is it the assuption that our "stirikes" will remove the CW threat entirelly?


Short answer: if you mean 'destroy the CW's entirely,' then no.
Long answer: the strikes would probably be something like Desert Fox. That is, a day or two of targeted strikes against any known CW stockpiles or manufacturing sites and strikes against Assad's intelligence and secret police facilities as well as selected high value military targets like comms facilities and armories and that sort of thing. The point is not to destory the CWs. Rather, it's to make Assad know that the use of CWs confers no strategic advantage and in fact brings down a disproprotionate rain of hell on his capacity to govern and wage his civil war. The effect of that will absolutely be the removal of the CW threat.

/Provided the strikes do not make Assad's regime collapse overnight, dispersing the remaining CWs into the hand of unpredictable elements in the rebellion.
 
2013-09-11 01:19:49 AM  

JohnnyBravo: Question:  Is it the assuption that our "stirikes" will remove the CW threat entirelly?


No, I don't think anyone in the world is prepared to make that statement (other than maybe a few strawmen in some republican's arguments). Besides, did you see the President's speech earlier? The assumption is that the strikes would deter Assad from firing them again, not completely neutralize the threat. I don't even think that's possible with air strikes.
 
2013-09-11 01:21:24 AM  

TeamEd: JohnnyBravo: Question:  Is it the assuption that our "stirikes" will remove the CW threat entirelly?

Short answer: if you mean 'destroy the CW's entirely,' then no.
Long answer: the strikes would probably be something like Desert Fox. That is, a day or two of targeted strikes against any known CW stockpiles or manufacturing sites and strikes against Assad's intelligence and secret police facilities as well as selected high value military targets like comms facilities and armories and that sort of thing. The point is not to destory the CWs. Rather, it's to make Assad know that the use of CWs confers no strategic advantage and in fact brings down a disproprotionate rain of hell on his capacity to govern and wage his civil war. The effect of that will absolutely be the removal of the CW threat.

/Provided the strikes do not make Assad's regime collapse overnight, dispersing the remaining CWs into the hand of unpredictable elements in the rebellion.


Should have refreshed the thread before I posted, you said it way better than I did.
 
2013-09-11 01:36:26 AM  
Frankly I don't care if this was Obama's secret plan all along, Putin's plan, or dumb luck. The result Americans and the world wanted was to settle this without fighting.  Obama's line now is that this would  have never happened but for the threat of American strikes, and that that threat should remain to back up the consequences of the diplomatic process failing.   We may never know for sure, but the country would have certainly damned Obama and tarred him as another Bush, for not at least trying the peaceful way first.  American honor is preserved. The red line thing can now be walked back without repercussions.  obama can suggest he's gotten Putin off his ass to take care of his client state, like a lazy landlord finally doing something about the litterbug tenants playing music after 10 on school nights.


Obama repeated the phrase" we don't want to be the world's policemen".  I think that's right. But it's America's nature to be the World's FIREMEN. See a blaze that threatens the neighborhood, you take it out, because the civilian folks can't and they expect you to do it...
 
2013-09-11 01:50:52 AM  

JohnnyBravo: I am not going to sleep tonight.  The questions remains...do you want real, no shiat, results in lessening the threat?  We can wait...let the UN attempt to secure every last CW in Syria without the security necessary to do so, while they build a CW destruction facility and secure chain of custody of the munitions the entire time.   During a civil war.

Or the other thing.

The laws of war....their is one law of war.....WIN.


It's ok, get some rest. We'll wait. I promise you won't miss anything!
 
2013-09-11 01:53:11 AM  

TeamEd: As such, it is a big blow to his capability to fight the civil war.


That part's not really accurate. He was doing just fine without CW, thanks.
 
2013-09-11 05:14:36 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.


This.  Why do so many people naively assume that Syria will do what it says it will do?
 
2013-09-11 07:36:20 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Assad still needs to be bombed to pieces, just on principal.
Obama looks weak for not being punitive after a chemical attack.
It's pretty sad when a tin-pot freak like Assad can play the United States for a fool.


Then go kickstarter the bombing campaign, chickenhawk. Because the rest of us don't give a shiat about the Syrian Civil War.
 
2013-09-11 08:34:18 AM  

TeamEd: vygramul: justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.

And Syria does?

Uh, yes. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is in Syrian territory. It is one of the main reasons the Russians are so invested in this situation.


Ah - Syria is Russia's route to the sea.

How many Russian ships are in the Eastern Med at the moment?
 
2013-09-11 08:36:22 AM  

JohnnyBravo: Question:  Is it the assuption that our "stirikes" will remove the CW threat entirelly?


I doubt it. It's supposed to create an incentive against their use. And you strike the CW systems because it makes the message clear and maybe a little harder to use that capability. But that's the secondary goal. The primary is the disincentive.
 
2013-09-11 08:39:51 AM  

flondrix: Dusk-You-n-Me: Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

This.  Why do so many people naively assume that Syria will do what it says it will do?


Why is it naïveté? It's been explained many times in this thread. Without Russia, Assad cannot continue his bloody civil war. The only other option his regime seems to have would be to piss off Russia, the only country who is willing to provide him with weapons/ammunition, and to invite air strikes from the US, both of which, by themselves, would weaken his position in the civil war. Disarmament is a win-win, any other decision would be inviting more trouble for an already troubled regime.
 
2013-09-11 08:43:49 AM  

ongbok: There are some real idiots in this country.

If you don't think that Kerry's statement wasn't purposely floated out there for the world to hear the US was willing to give Assad a way to end this that didn't involve Tomahawks reigning down on him and him being hunted like Saddam, then you are a fool. And yes Putin was probably involved in the planning.


I'd like to think that in some smoked filled back room at the G20, this was the scenario.  I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.

. Alas, just as there is no direct proof that Assad carried out the attacks, we will never know.
 
2013-09-11 08:51:03 AM  

vygramul: TeamEd: vygramul: justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.

And Syria does?

Uh, yes. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is in Syrian territory. It is one of the main reasons the Russians are so invested in this situation.

Ah - Syria is Russia's route to the sea.

How many Russian ships are in the Eastern Med at the moment?


Yeah, because they'd totally have to send new ships across land and not simply reroute ships from elsewhere to the Mediteranean.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57601648/russia-cancels-syria-lob b ying-mission-to-d.c.-more-russian-war-ships-reportedly-head-for-medite rranean/

At the end of August they sent two warships, and a couple days ago they said the were sending two more. That's a helluva lot of Russian fire power to be parked off someone's coast.
 
2013-09-11 08:55:19 AM  
assad will continue the bloody civil war no matter what. he has proven he can use CW and get away with it.

in order for russia to secure his arsenal, assad needs to tell us what he has and where. he isn't going to do that. he has already said he doesn't even have CW, morons.

he will disclose a couple of sites and let russia take 50% of his stock. next time he needs to hold damascus....SUPRISE!!!!

the US and the UK have already shown they are not inclined to intervene, and obama needs congressional authorization that he won't get. we answer to china and russia at the UN. russia will continue to fund and protect assad.

as for the UN...the 15th annivesary of srebernica was a month ago. if your naeivete is driven by the fact that you are too young to remember, google it.
this deal will not get rid of assad's CW or stop him from using them. these are false assurances to the syrian people .

i have no desire to find fault with obama. his mistake was in mouthing off about unilateralsm and red lines when he couldn't deliver. i generally support him and his policies on the region.
 
2013-09-11 09:00:17 AM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: ongbok: There are some real idiots in this country.

If you don't think that Kerry's statement wasn't purposely floated out there for the world to hear the US was willing to give Assad a way to end this that didn't involve Tomahawks reigning down on him and him being hunted like Saddam, then you are a fool. And yes Putin was probably involved in the planning.

I'd like to think that in some smoked filled back room at the G20, this was the scenario.  I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.

. Alas, just as there is no direct proof that Assad carried out the attacks, we will never know.


So if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might not be a duck, because that's just circumstantial evidence?

We may not have a smoking gun, but based on photos, video, and satellite imagery, there's pretty much a >99% chance it was them. Unless you're trolling, I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion.
 
2013-09-11 09:01:17 AM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: ongbok: There are some real idiots in this country.

If you don't think that Kerry's statement wasn't purposely floated out there for the world to hear the US was willing to give Assad a way to end this that didn't involve Tomahawks reigning down on him and him being hunted like Saddam, then you are a fool. And yes Putin was probably involved in the planning.

I'd like to think that in some smoked filled back room at the G20, this was the scenario.  I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.

. Alas, just as there is no direct proof that Assad carried out the attacks, we will never know.


hubris, wrong word....doh......

humility is what I meant.
 
2013-09-11 09:31:01 AM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.


Nounhubris ()
Excessive pride, presumption or arrogance (originally toward the gods).Why would you want more hubris from anyone?  It usually gets your family placed under a curse, ending with someone killing his father and marrying his mother or some such rot.
 
2013-09-11 10:00:32 AM  

glmorrs1: vygramul: TeamEd: vygramul: justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.

And Syria does?

Uh, yes. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is in Syrian territory. It is one of the main reasons the Russians are so invested in this situation.

Ah - Syria is Russia's route to the sea.

How many Russian ships are in the Eastern Med at the moment?

Yeah, because they'd totally have to send new ships across land and not simply reroute ships from elsewhere to the Mediteranean.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57601648/russia-cancels-syria-lob b ying-mission-to-d.c.-more-russian-war-ships-reportedly-head-for-medite rranean/

At the end of August they sent two warships, and a couple days ago they said the were sending two more. That's a helluva lot of Russian fire power to be parked off someone's coast.


They're sending a frigate and a landing ship?

Oh, man, how will we ever deal with that?
 
2013-09-11 10:06:45 AM  

TheBigJerk: They're pretty upset.


Huh. Must be Tuesday. Or Wednesday. Or, you know...any other day. Those people can't get through their day without some enemy to rail against.
 
2013-09-11 11:30:58 AM  

vygramul: glmorrs1: vygramul: TeamEd: vygramul: justanothersumguy: Dusk-You-n-Me: The White House may really be about to win on Syria

vs

Don't get your hopes up. Syria might be adopting the North Korea playbook.

North Korea Does not have the Russian Fleet parked on their doorstep.

And Syria does?

Uh, yes. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is in Syrian territory. It is one of the main reasons the Russians are so invested in this situation.

Ah - Syria is Russia's route to the sea.

How many Russian ships are in the Eastern Med at the moment?

Yeah, because they'd totally have to send new ships across land and not simply reroute ships from elsewhere to the Mediteranean.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57601648/russia-cancels-syria-lob b ying-mission-to-d.c.-more-russian-war-ships-reportedly-head-for-medite rranean/

At the end of August they sent two warships, and a couple days ago they said the were sending two more. That's a helluva lot of Russian fire power to be parked off someone's coast.

They're sending a frigate and a landing ship?

Oh, man, how will we ever deal with that?


By leaving them the f*ck alone. It is their client state, and it's a good thing that they're finally taking some action to defuse things, even a bit.

The fighting isn't going to stop. Assad is going to continue to have the Russians' support, because he's the devil they know. They will, however, stop drawing as much attention to themselves, and weapons that the Russians have knowingly supplied to them, or granted them the resources to build and stockpile.

For all the folks who are screaming that this damages the US by our NOT going in to liberate the sh*t out of them, and letting the Russians take the lead on this: it's not our backyard. The US and the international community has been looking for the Russians to clean up this mess for some time. Europe doesn't want to send troops, ships, or pretty much a damn thing to the region, because they have zero interests in Syria. Well, Turkey does, but that is because they've got that pesky border, and more refugees keep showing up daily. The US has only tangential interest, because of the humanitarian aspect, and we are watching closely in case AQ or others gain power, and gain access to a lot more resources, and pretty much, we've been shamed into the position, and there is NO ONE in this mess that we really want to back. There are no good outcomes from this, but the European nations want someone to calm things down, and given that Russia pretty much abdicated any involvement, save by continuing to do business with Assad, that someone is apparently the US, and once again, the UN is clucking their tongues about how terrible things are, while trying to nudge the US into doing something. Letting the Russians take the lead here is exactly what should have happened a while back, and by bringing this to a head, with attention, the Russians are finally doing that. Diplomatic pressure and grand strategy? Perhaps not so much, but this is outcome that folks have been looking for, and more, for some time, and it's NOT our job to roll in. It's NOT our responsibility, and with so many interests--billions invested at this point--in the nation by Russia, it has always been their mess to clean up.

The bloviating and shrill harpies who think that the US has any business involving itself in this mess, simply put, are opportunists who are looking to score points, with little understanding. Nothing new there. They want to believe that the US has a role in this mess, and we don't. We should be maybe sending aid where we can, and even that is suspect, considering how screwed up things are, and the lack of anyone in this who we could even nominally like to see in power. There are no "good guys" in this mess. No one, really, who we want to see gain the upper hand. If anything, the conflict, in terms of Real Politik, keeps folks wasting resources and manpower against one another, and keeps the conflicts between them rolling so that they are spread thinner, and concentrated on killing one another. The difficulty is that a good many innocent folks are caught in the middle--which has been the same in Afghanistan, Iraq, and certainly in Iran and around the region, since...well, a long ass time.

Would it be nice if we had some missile or bomb that instantly erased asshats from God's Green Earth? Yup. Of course, testing it might also wipe out a fair swath in this country as well, so maybe that's not a bad thing to not have in our arsenal.

The Russians taking even this baby step to taking some responsibility is what should have happened a while back. That it's taken this long is no feather in their cap. It is no feather in our own either, but we should be glad that at least it's showing that the Russians are getting sick of this crap. At least starting to. Not out of disgust, but out of annoyance at the attention it's gotten. It's akin to a teenager sullenly taking the returnable bottles and cans from his incredibly messy room to get his roommates off his back about the smell, and ONLY taking out the bottles and cans, and still leaving the heaps of trash and dirty clothes everywhere. "Are you happy, NOW?" It's not out of a new found cleanliness, but simply wanting to get folks of his back about a symptom of the larger issue. But, it's at least a start...
 
2013-09-11 12:54:18 PM  

hubiestubert: By leaving them the f*ck alone.


I'm not saying we have reason to go into conflict. The assertion was that there's a Russian FLEET off the coast of Syria, and that's why we're not messing with them. I am expressing dubiousness over that assertion.

I'm not going to argue with you over the rest of it - I think that the outcome most recently proposed does a lot to improve our credibility. And Russia's. And Syria's. Everyone wins here, IMO. (So I am fully confident that everyone can screw this up.)
 
2013-09-11 01:24:00 PM  

flondrix: Lt. Cheese Weasel: I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.

Nounhubris ()
Excessive pride, presumption or arrogance (originally toward the gods).Why would you want more hubris from anyone?  It usually gets your family placed under a curse, ending with someone killing his father and marrying his mother or some such rot.


I DID correct myself one post later.
 
2013-09-11 01:59:00 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: flondrix: Lt. Cheese Weasel: I'd like to think that. It suggests a higher level of hubris from Obama and intelligence previously not on display.

Nounhubris ()
Excessive pride, presumption or arrogance (originally toward the gods).Why would you want more hubris from anyone?  It usually gets your family placed under a curse, ending with someone killing his father and marrying his mother or some such rot.

I DID correct myself one post later.


Ah.  When my english teacher first used the word "hubris", I thought it was a dish made from sheep's intestines.
 
2013-09-11 02:32:15 PM  

flondrix: I thought it was a dish made from sheep's intestines.


No, that's Chicago Deep Dish Pizza you're thinking of.
 
2013-09-11 02:41:55 PM  

vygramul: hubiestubert: By leaving them the f*ck alone.

I'm not saying we have reason to go into conflict. The assertion was that there's a Russian FLEET off the coast of Syria, and that's why we're not messing with them. I am expressing dubiousness over that assertion.

I'm not going to argue with you over the rest of it - I think that the outcome most recently proposed does a lot to improve our credibility. And Russia's. And Syria's. Everyone wins here, IMO. (So I am fully confident that everyone can screw this up.)


The Russian Naval base is the basis of their presence, and it is a declarative measure, as well as a base of operations to keep pirates, odd military clashes, and certainly a fair amount of equipment in the region. A fleet it ain't, but it is a legal reason to have to protect their assets, and further their interests in the area. Much like many of our own bases overseas. Not a huge presence, but a statement of intent, and a projection of power that is a step up from an embassy.
 
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