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(Opposing Views)   Law student sues law school for making him retake a law class he failed   ( opposingviews.com) divider line
    More: Amusing, Jackson Millikan, law schools, California Superior Court  
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7749 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Sep 2013 at 3:44 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-09 05:00:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: NutWrench: So the school required him to re-enroll in the course. Millikan, according to his legal filing, then went home for the summer to Washington state, where he worked for the State Attorney General's office. He says that over the summer he heard nothing more about the demand that he take "Civil Procedure II" a second time. Due to this "silence" on the part of the school, Millikan assumed that the school had simply given up on requiring him to retake the course.

Sounds like he really needed to pass that course.

I took an incomplete in a 200-level "theory of" class in college, a pre-req for all of the upper-level courses in my major. It didn't stop me from taking those courses (which apparently it should have), so as a graduating senior, I was in the intro class with 200 freshman (and a bunch of jocks). The only way I knew to retake the class was that when I applied for graduation, they informed me that I shouldn't have been allowed to take the degree's worth of upper levels I had taken over the last 18 months.

Dude's an idiot. Credit him for creativity, but he's a moron for thinking this had a prayer of working.


I've been trying to decide on my second career, so at the local university one week into a semester I'll show up at a class I'm interested in and see if I can get the professor to sign an add slip. I'm classified as a graduate student at large and have no advisor assigned to me. So, if I can get the profs signature I'm in the class regardless if I have the pre-reqs or not.

So, far I've taken some upper level EE, Econ, CS, Math, and Chem classes with out having the pre-reqs. I've only ever had one professor refuse to sign, she insisted I get the department chairs signature, he signed no problem.

I'm still not sure what the hell I want to do for my next career.
 
2013-09-09 05:01:47 PM  
California Law Schools. 'nuff said. Most of them are unaccredited rip-offs for kids who can't get into a real law school. The equivalent of Medical schools in third world countries. For kids with more money than academic capabilities.

Dude's a moron. Both for this case, and for signing up with this school. Even of the accredited Law schools, 3 out of 10 law school graduates from the accredited schools fail.
 
2013-09-09 05:01:51 PM  
Millikan,  a third-year student [at] Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego

That explains it.

According to Law School Transparency, less than a quarter (24.1%) of 2011 TJSL graduates found long-term, full-time legal jobs as of nine months after graduation. That is a total of 63 grads out of 236. Two (yes, two) students were known to have found full-time jobs in large firms (more than 100 attorneys). Zero obtained federal judicial clerkships. Ten found their way into full-time government gigs and two into full-time public interest jobs.
 
2013-09-09 05:03:43 PM  

talkertopc: He should have gotten a GED in law instead.


We need to find a picture of this d-bag and label it "GED in Law".
 
2013-09-09 05:07:37 PM  

zimbomba63: The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.


Illinois has long been considered to have an y easy bar, though they just announced they will be making it harder.

Most people who have taken both ( I know 3) say the Bar is harder. Mileage may vary state by state though.
 
2013-09-09 05:14:09 PM  

zimbomba63: SirEattonHogg: zimbomba63:   Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

This is California.  At last count, I believe there are well over 50 law schools in this state.  Yes, you did not misread that.  Roughly 20 are accredited.

The bar exam is supposed to the control on the faucet, I guess.

Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.


They're completely different subjects, so you can't always make that comparison. It's not like "If you can lift subby's mom, you can easily lift that boulder." It's more like "If you can catch a knuckleball, making a soufflé should be easy." The first one is true, the second is not.
 
2013-09-09 05:19:04 PM  
Zimbomba63:   Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.


It's not standardized (except for the multiple choice - which is national) for several reasons.  One, unlike accounting, the legal industry covers a lot more different areas and subjects - like criminal, tax, corporate which are very different from each other.  As such, certain states wish an emphasis on certain areas that are specific or peculiar to their part of the country - for example, California has an emphasis on asking about community property (an area of marital/divorce law) - which is not followed by a lot of states in the country, New York and Delaware have an emphasis on corporate law, Texas on oil/natural resources (so I've heard) and the most specific is Lousiana which needs to test on its peculiar adherence to code law (as opposed to common law followed by the other 49 states).

Further, each state has its own needs on the number of attorneys it wants to admit.  Some of the midwest states are surprisingly low on attorneys and their bar association accordingly has an easier bar to pass in order to attract folks.   California attracts too many out of towners and has too many law schools, so it needs to have a harder test.  Not hard enough in my opinion based on the recent passage rates this year.
 
2013-09-09 05:20:24 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: zimbomba63: The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.

Illinois has long been considered to have an y easy bar, though they just announced they will be making it harder.

Most people who have taken both ( I know 3) say the Bar is harder. Mileage may vary state by state though.


but, uniform bar exams wouldn't help much.  every state has different laws.  but, many states offer reciprocity or credit for taking another state's bar.

/ we're supposed to have a harder than normal bar exam in my state, if not the hardest (people say california is the hardest, but they have no law school requirement, so their high failure rate is incomparable to other states -- however, I still believe that california has a hard bar)... i believe ours is the longest.  which immediately makes it the most obnoxious.  27 hours.
// my theory is that they have a pass rate that they want to maintain, so, if too many people pass one year, next year is going to be harder.  when I took the bar, I looked at the past 5-6 years of bar exam questions, and I knew someone who was a bar grader, and he knew who wrote the tests, and etc. etc. etc.  you could definitely map trends regarding the difficulty of questions, the likelihood of certain matters being asked.  but, you could also see the disaster of a new test writer (our bar is 9 different tests).  they made their test the most difficult.  in fact, it was impossible to finish in time.  so, that had an extremely low pass rate.  I've heard he made his section easier due to his abysmal passage rates.
 
2013-09-09 05:29:27 PM  
BojanglesPaladin:   California Law Schools. 'nuff said. Most of them are unaccredited rip-offs for kids who can't get into a real law school. The equivalent of Medical schools in third world countries. For kids with more money than academic capabilities.


Thomas Jefferson is ABA accredited.  Not saying its a very good school, but there you have it.
 
2013-09-09 05:42:00 PM  

zimbomba63: Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

/I know I could be sued for this.


Although yes to your second half, there are a glut of law schools looking to make a buck now from basically anyone willing to pay, overall actually, law school admissions have dropped off the last few years.  I hope the message "$100k in debt, no good job prospects unless in the top 25% of your class from a good school, the work life sucks anyway and you can be a businessman/scientist and have a life instead" is finally getting through.  Might just be the recession though.
 
2013-09-09 05:49:41 PM  

sprgrss: Why the fark did he only get around to taking Civ. Pro. as a 2L?


The article said the course was Civ Pro II, so maybe an advanced version?

/Great, now I want to play some Sid Meiers...
 
2013-09-09 05:56:25 PM  

SirEattonHogg: Thomas Jefferson is ABA accredited. Not saying its a very good school, but there you have it.


Huh. given their pass rate posted above I just...assumed. Shame on me and Praise for you for the point of clarification. Thanks.

pute kisses like a man: / we're supposed to have a harder than normal bar exam in my state


IANAL, but as I understand it, Louisiana is considered hard because it is entirely different from the rest of the country owing to it's different history. There is a lot of Napoleonic law vestiges, especially in ordinances, real estate, contracts, etc that are conceptually different from the rest of the countries English common law based law. Kinda like how Maritime and Admiralty law is a whole other creature.
 
2013-09-09 05:58:26 PM  

damageddude: Millikan,  a third-year student [at] Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego

That explains it.

According to Law School Transparency, less than a quarter (24.1%) of 2011 TJSL graduates found long-term, full-time legal jobs as of nine months after graduation. That is a total of 63 grads out of 236. Two (yes, two) students were known to have found full-time jobs in large firms (more than 100 attorneys). Zero obtained federal judicial clerkships. Ten found their way into full-time government gigs and two into full-time public interest jobs.


4th tier toilet
 
2013-09-09 06:04:20 PM  
If he's having difficulty with the case, he can always ask for help at this site.
 
2013-09-09 06:12:58 PM  

Pangea: Thingster: That's where you sign up for the class you failed, and the followup class concurrently. Depending on how the course reqs are worded, you can get away with it.

I failed a class that was a prereq for another, requirement said "completed X class". Not completed successfully, not completed with a C, just completed.

I used the line of reasoning that I was in the class, didn't drop it, and stuck through and took the final - hence I had completed the class, just not successfully. Prof bought it and let me in the upper level class. (Passed both that time).

You're a damn lawyer, find the loophole of vague language.

Reasonably clever. Good work.


Thank you.

Prof thought it was clever, too and he was a reasonable man.

We both knew at anytime he could point at the F, strike me from the rolls, and tell me to take it up with the dean.

I sealed the deal by pointing out if a class isn't completed, wouldn't I have an I instead of an F?
 
2013-09-09 06:40:29 PM  
Dude is going to find out in 7 years that the student loans didn't just go away, and now he is garnished
 
2013-09-09 06:48:06 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: So, far I've taken some upper level EE, Econ, CS, Math, and Chem classes with out having the pre-reqs. I've only ever had one professor refuse to sign, she insisted I get the department chairs signature, he signed no problem.


I was able to skip my first-year classes for my major, because I'd been studying the field in high school... by "testing out" of several classes during the first week of school. Basically I got credit for the class by passing its final exam.
 
2013-09-09 06:54:29 PM  
I can't wait till this coont fails his bar exam because they "didn't tell him" again he needed to upload his essays by midnight Friday.
 
2013-09-09 09:06:15 PM  
God bless this man because our lawyer count in this country is dangerously low.

How hard could the Bar Exam really be? Isn't it just memorizing shiat? It's not like Math or Science that actually requires intelligence. I mean look at any bench at a bus stop. Those people all passed the bar.
 
2013-09-09 09:11:35 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Dr Dreidel: NutWrench: So the school required him to re-enroll in the course. Millikan, according to his legal filing, then went home for the summer to Washington state, where he worked for the State Attorney General's office. He says that over the summer he heard nothing more about the demand that he take "Civil Procedure II" a second time. Due to this "silence" on the part of the school, Millikan assumed that the school had simply given up on requiring him to retake the course.

Sounds like he really needed to pass that course.

I took an incomplete in a 200-level "theory of" class in college, a pre-req for all of the upper-level courses in my major. It didn't stop me from taking those courses (which apparently it should have), so as a graduating senior, I was in the intro class with 200 freshman (and a bunch of jocks). The only way I knew to retake the class was that when I applied for graduation, they informed me that I shouldn't have been allowed to take the degree's worth of upper levels I had taken over the last 18 months.

Dude's an idiot. Credit him for creativity, but he's a moron for thinking this had a prayer of working.

I've been trying to decide on my second career, so at the local university one week into a semester I'll show up at a class I'm interested in and see if I can get the professor to sign an add slip. I'm classified as a graduate student at large and have no advisor assigned to me. So, if I can get the profs signature I'm in the class regardless if I have the pre-reqs or not.

So, far I've taken some upper level EE, Econ, CS, Math, and Chem classes with out having the pre-reqs. I've only ever had one professor refuse to sign, she insisted I get the department chairs signature, he signed no problem.

I'm still not sure what the hell I want to do for my next career.


Academic autograph hunter looks promising...
 
2013-09-09 09:37:32 PM  
Well, instead of just he, his professor and parents knowing he is a marginal student at best, there are so many more of us who know not to hire this guy should be graduate and somehow pass the bar...

Nice work son.
 
kth
2013-09-09 09:42:38 PM  

pute kisses like a man: BojanglesPaladin: zimbomba63: The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass

/ we're supposed to have a harder than normal bar exam in my state, if not the hardest (people say california is the hardest, but they have no law school requirement, so their high failure rate is incomparable to other states -- however, I still believe that california has a hard bar)... i believe ours is the longest.  which immediately makes it the most obnoxious.  27 hours.

California is notoriously hard. This from friends who have taken several different bars. Why they would do that is beyond me.

I stuck with the Kansas Bar. Coming out of KU we have a 88% pass rate, so I walked in the room, eyeballed the number of people total and started counting people I knew to be idiots. I also handed out candy (smarties or dum dums, you could choose) because it was my tradition for every standardized test to bring treats for "karmic purposes." It worked when I took the PSAT, so I kept doing it for every standardized test thereafter.

Passed. Took a non-law job ten years to the day after I passed the bar and never looked back.

WelldeadLink: I was able to skip my first-year classes for my major, because I'd been studying the field in high school... by "testing out" of several classes during the first week of school. Basically I got credit for the class by passing its final exam.


I did that too, because of AP tests and other assorted high school nerdery. I realized that high school was going to suck no matter what, and that college was going to be significantly better, so I put all of my eggs in the college basket. I was a junior at the end of the first year. I had to take 12 hours per semester to keep my full ride (which I got because of the above referenced PSAT and nerdery), and almost graduated early. The horror. Fortunately, I realized it before it was too late and picked up another major.
 
2013-09-09 10:40:21 PM  

FLMountainMan: sprgrss: Why the fark did he only get around to taking Civ. Pro. as a 2L?

Depends on the school's required curriculum.  We didn't get around to it until second year either.  Five classes per semester....

1st semester:
Torts
Contracts
Property
Con Law
Research & Writing

2nd Semester
Evidence
Contracts II
Property II
R & W II
Crim Law


Damn, it was a 1L course for us.

1st Semester
Civ Pro I
Torts I
Crim Law
Contracts I
Property I
R&W I

2nd Semester
Civ Pro II
Torts II
Contracts II
Property II
R&W II
Con Law I
 
2013-09-09 10:50:54 PM  

ElwoodCuse: Is this one of those fly by night scam law schools because California doesn't require an ABA certified JD to sit for the bar exam?


Nope.  It's ABA accredited.
 
2013-09-09 11:37:43 PM  

zimbomba63: SirEattonHogg: zimbomba63:   Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

This is California.  At last count, I believe there are well over 50 law schools in this state.  Yes, you did not misread that.  Roughly 20 are accredited.

The bar exam is supposed to the control on the faucet, I guess.

Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.


Yes, actually I was just looking this up the other day.  I passed the CPA exam on the first attempt about... oh... the belt/onion era.  At that time only 4% passed on the first attempt.  I wanted to see if this was still the case, and supposedly the exam has gotten a bit easier to pass, but is still in the single digits.  The Bar exam, on the other hand, has about a 60% pass rate.
 
2013-09-10 12:03:52 AM  

GirlScoutSniper: zimbomba63: SirEattonHogg: zimbomba63:   Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

This is California.  At last count, I believe there are well over 50 law schools in this state.  Yes, you did not misread that.  Roughly 20 are accredited.

The bar exam is supposed to the control on the faucet, I guess.

Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.

Yes, actually I was just looking this up the other day.  I passed the CPA exam on the first attempt about... oh... the belt/onion era.  At that time only 4% passed on the first attempt.  I wanted to see if this was still the case, and supposedly the exam has gotten a bit easier to pass, but is still in the single digits.  The Bar exam, on the other hand, has about a 60% pass rate.


Add a 0 to that 4% and we'll talk.

And honestly, pass rate has more to do with people than testing.

Look at the FE exam results.

Last test, 81% of people that took the civil test passed. Only 67% of declared civils passed. Its about reading the questions and knowing what is being asked more than anything, even what you're educated in.

/I'm a civil, that's why I focused on those
//scary, really
///passed first time only sitting half the allotted time
 
2013-09-10 12:26:38 AM  

zimbomba63: SirEattonHogg: zimbomba63:   Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

This is California.  At last count, I believe there are well over 50 law schools in this state.  Yes, you did not misread that.  Roughly 20 are accredited.

The bar exam is supposed to the control on the faucet, I guess.

Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.


Professional Engineer is a national exam, except states can make their licensing requirements harder, for example CA requires a seismic exam for civil engineers.
 
2013-09-10 12:36:29 AM  

Thingster: GirlScoutSniper: zimbomba63: SirEattonHogg: zimbomba63:   Isn't there a current glut of lawyers?  And that there is no control on the faucet that's spilling out those legal eagles?  It appears that the door to the law profession is open a little too wide and anyone with a lukewarm IQ can stroll on through.  Just sayin'.

This is California.  At last count, I believe there are well over 50 law schools in this state.  Yes, you did not misread that.  Roughly 20 are accredited.

The bar exam is supposed to the control on the faucet, I guess.

Back when I was in college and my belt was festooned with onions, the accounting department would have grads come in and tell us what real life was like out there.  One speaker was a CPA/tax attorney, so he gave his talk and it was question and answer time, one of the questions concerned the bar exam, how hard was that?  He said, If you could pass the CPA exam, you will have no problem with the bar exam.  This was in Illinois, so I don't know the various degrees of difficulty in the various states' exams, but I think this may be the problem.  The bar exam may need to be made a bit more difficult to pass and standardized for the nation, like the CPA exam.

Yes, actually I was just looking this up the other day.  I passed the CPA exam on the first attempt about... oh... the belt/onion era.  At that time only 4% passed on the first attempt.  I wanted to see if this was still the case, and supposedly the exam has gotten a bit easier to pass, but is still in the single digits.  The Bar exam, on the other hand, has about a 60% pass rate.

Add a 0 to that 4% and we'll talk.

And honestly, pass rate has more to do with people than testing.

Look at the FE exam results.

Last test, 81% of people that took the civil test passed. Only 67% of declared civils passed. Its about reading the questions and knowing what is being asked more than anything, even what you're educated in.

/I'm a civil, that's why I focused on those
//scary, really
/// ...


We're kind of comparing apples and oranges here.  The CPA exam consists of 4 different exams, each of which you must pass.  When I took it, you took all sections over a two day period in four sessions.  The pass rate for each individual exam is about 45-50%, however only 4% of first attempts pass all four sections.  If you fail any section, you could retake the portion you did not pass, but only if you passed two sections in the first attempt.  Now the test is still in four sections, but you take them individually over an 8 month period.  Which, of course, is easier to prepare for.

When I took the exam, there were the four sections, each consisting of multiple choice, short answer and two essay questions.  I believe they've gone to just multiple choice and one essay, but I could be mistaken.

I do not know the procedure or breadth of knowledge of the FE exam.  And, you're right, it's about reading the questions and knowing what is being asked.  Some people are good test takers, and some are not.  It sometimes doesn't have to do with their intelligence or knowledge on the subject, though.

When I took the CPA exam, every time I was the first person to leave.  Once the proctor asked me if everything was ok and why I was leaving so early.  I just take tests well, and hopefully still do!  I just returned to college to get a CIS degree, and hopefully will take the PMP exam for a certification.
 
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