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(Townhall)   While fighting for your right to freedom of religion, the Air Force is suppressing it for their members   (townhall.com) divider line 158
    More: Asinine, air forces, freedom of religions, Lackland Air Force Base, base commander, Liberty Institute, Mirandize, fighting  
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2804 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Sep 2013 at 4:47 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-09 05:01:37 PM
When was the last time the military confronted an actual, plausible threat to Americans' freedoms?  WWII?

Subby, groups like the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State are fighting for my freedom of religion.  The military is generally engaging in adventures in the Middle East, and doing various other things around the globe, most of which have basically nothing to do with any actual threats to my freedoms.
 
2013-09-09 05:01:42 PM
rightwing christians: Assholes

leftwing christians: nice enough

Atheists: how about you religious people quit worshiping imaginary things and lets explore the universe by leaving this shiathole that is full of religious nuts who keep blowing things up for profit and control over humanity
 
2013-09-09 05:04:23 PM
I got a real kick out of "Church or additional duty" Sundays when I was in Basic training.
 
2013-09-09 05:04:32 PM
Oh sure. After having fundies in the Air Force Academy trying to force conversions on Jewish cadets, bulling atheists (and you can imagine what they did to the Muslim cadets), being told to "Hey! Stop acting like a bunch of Spanish Inquisition asshats!", they get all pouty and helphelpwerebeingoppressed.jpg
 
2013-09-09 05:05:39 PM

spcMike: Marcus Aurelius: Members of the armed forces are the property of the US government.  When told to jump, they need to ask how high.

Actually we tend to ask if we really need to jump


I believe it was Von Steuban who noted: "With Prussian soldiers, I tell them to dig, and they grab a shovel. With Americans I tell them to dig and they ask 'what is the hole for?'"

He is also where we get the expression "By the numbers" from. He didn't speak a word of English, so he prepared all of the maneuvers he wanted the troops to perform pictorially, and labeled each with a number. On the drill field he would call out the number.

You know the drill ;-)
 
2013-09-09 05:07:20 PM
Now where did I put that pesky "We're being oppressed" Christian pie chart .jpg?
 
2013-09-09 05:08:52 PM

UberDave: Weaver95: UberDave: "Last week, Monk was supposed to meet with an Air Force investigator tasked with gathering facts about the complaint. But when he arrived, Monk was immediately read his Miranda Rights and accused of providing false statements in a conversation Monk had with me. "


I don't know about the accusation but during an investigation, everyone verbally interviewed is read Miranda Rights.  That's nothing big.

Except that a member off the armed forces doesn't have Miranda rights...least ways i never heard of it applying under the UCMJ. I could be wrong about that but...hmm. Interesting.

I don't remember the specifics on that - I just know that every time you gave a statement during an investigation you were given the Miranda Rights - and (without looking it up) I don't think they were exactly like civilian Miranda Rights...if that makes any sense.  I gave statements to investigators more than once (just BS stuff that didn't directly involve me) and ever time, they read the Rights.


Those subject to the UCMJ are given written/verbal notice of their rights as outlined in Article 31.  They are in some ways similar to Miranda warnings, but are broader and actually predate Miranda by a dozen years or so.

Article 31 (UCMJ):
a. No person subject to this chapter may compel any person to incriminate himself or to answer any questions the answer to which may tend to incriminate him.
b. No person subject to this chapter may interrogate or request any statement from an accused or a person suspected of an offense without first informing him of the nature of the accusation and advising him that he does not have to make any statement regarding the offense of which he is accused or suspected, and that any statement made by him may be used as evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.
c. No person subject to this chapter may compel any person to make a statement or produce evidence before any military tribunal if the statement or evidence is not material to the issue and may tend to degrade him.
d. No statement obtained from any person in violation of this article, or through the use of coercion, unlawful influence, or unlawful inducement, may be received in evidence against him in a trial by court-martial.
 
2013-09-09 05:10:04 PM
I exchanged gay or homosexual with black, interracial or Negro and Christian/religious with white and re-read the article. Looked like something out of the early 1960s.
 
2013-09-09 05:10:33 PM

Corvus: Reading the headline and seeing it's a Townhall link I am going to guess: Some asshole in the military is feeling "repressed" because he can't be intolerant to someone who has different views then him.


i1198.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-09 05:10:49 PM

cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: It's freedom of religion, not freedom to be an asshole

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a difference.

Well, then you're an asshole too. The vast majority of people who are religious aren't assholes, and you know it.

Not from personal experience, I'll tell you that. My entire family is religious and they're all asshole Republicans.


Then you need to step outside of your bubble. It's not hard to find nice people who also believe in magic.
 
2013-09-09 05:11:09 PM

cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: It's freedom of religion, not freedom to be an asshole

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a difference.

Well, then you're an asshole too. The vast majority of people who are religious aren't assholes, and you know it.

Not from personal experience, I'll tell you that. My entire family is religious and they're all asshole Republicans.


Maybe the common denominator is you.

Ever think of that?
 
2013-09-09 05:12:08 PM

Weaver95: what_now: So basically, this dick freckle was harassing his fellow airmen and when told to knock it off he whined about how his rights to be an asshole for his god were being repressed?

This is why people don't like Christians.

That's my read on it as well. He kept preaching to the point he was affecting unit cohesion and was told to knock it off. Well...religious beliefs are fine and all, bout if your CO says dial it back, you dial it back or else.


He has extreme troubles with homosexuality, but not with the "Thou shalt not kill" part?  God only gave us 10 rules to follow, and NONE of them actually deal with homosexuality.  It would appear "being a Christian' is just an excuse he uses to cover his behavior issues.
 
2013-09-09 05:12:21 PM
Sir, I knew Jesus Christ, You sir are no Jesus Christ.
 
2013-09-09 05:12:26 PM
Meh, the USAF is full of fundies. They aren't being suppressed... they're upset that they aren't permitted to force their religion on everyone else while at work. Work is for farking WORK, not for religion, not for sexual orientation time (regardless of your orientation or how much you don't like someone elses orientation), not for any of that other bullshiat... go to work to work.
 
2013-09-09 05:12:29 PM

mitchcumstein1: cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: It's freedom of religion, not freedom to be an asshole

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a difference.

Well, then you're an asshole too. The vast majority of people who are religious aren't assholes, and you know it.


This.

/Agnostic
 
2013-09-09 05:16:43 PM
Little did I know that "freedom of religion" meant drumming anyone not Christian out of the service.

Take your persecution complex and go home,
 
2013-09-09 05:18:57 PM
Don't you guys get it? Christians have the right to impose their values on everybody because of Stalin and Mao and furthermore
 
2013-09-09 05:19:27 PM

Weaver95: Except that a member off the armed forces doesn't have Miranda rights...least ways i never heard of it applying under the UCMJ. I could be wrong about that but...hmm. Interesting.


They do actually. I've had to read them to a guy that I was taking into custody for a UA charge. They also have protections regarding their personal effects and searches. In that same case while we were still looking for the guy I was not allowed to look in his locker to see if he had left anything in there. This was in 1989.

In the end it turned out to be a combination of him being dumb and some missed messages. He got 2 weeks of restriction and a 1 month hit in pay over it but he turned out to be a pretty good sailor in the end. I was at his mast and stood up for him even though I was the one who originally charged him.
 
2013-09-09 05:19:43 PM
I was going to read the article, but as soon as I clicked it there was an advertisement over the page about a book that has "Obama is going to take your gun" in the title.
 
Ant
2013-09-09 05:24:49 PM
Nobody has to tolerate your intolerance, assholes!
 
2013-09-09 05:28:11 PM
LOL at the stock photo of a Swedish fighter jet that Townhall includes in a piece about the USAF.
 
2013-09-09 05:30:11 PM
19 years in and he hasn't made Chief yet? 19 years and now he'll never make Chief.
 
2013-09-09 05:31:58 PM

Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.

Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council
 
2013-09-09 05:41:07 PM

Bawdy George: Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.
Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council


well that was a depressing read....thanks man.
 
2013-09-09 05:44:24 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: spcMike: Marcus Aurelius: Members of the armed forces are the property of the US government.  When told to jump, they need to ask how high.

Actually we tend to ask if we really need to jump

I believe it was Von Steuban who noted: "With Prussian soldiers, I tell them to dig, and they grab a shovel. With Americans I tell them to dig and they ask 'what is the hole for?'"

He is also where we get the expression "By the numbers" from. He didn't speak a word of English, so he prepared all of the maneuvers he wanted the troops to perform pictorially, and labeled each with a number. On the drill field he would call out the number.

You know the drill ;-)


Personally, I see that as a good thing.  If some German soldiers would only have asked what the holes were for in the '40s, perhaps a lot of heartache could have been avoided.

/Godwin
 
2013-09-09 05:45:16 PM
I must've been in the wrong career field, I don't think there was a single Christian in our flight.
 
2013-09-09 05:49:38 PM

FnkyTwn: 19 years in and he hasn't made Chief yet? 19 years and now he'll never make Chief.


Of those who even manage to attain that rank the average time in service is over 22 years before one makes it.
 
2013-09-09 05:53:23 PM

RexTalionis: dj_bigbird: Isn't there a Pacman looking graph to describe this?


It needs a little venn-diagram area in the yellow denoting actual pacmen.
 
2013-09-09 05:58:07 PM

Weaver95: Bawdy George: Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.
Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council

well that was a depressing read....thanks man.


Even more depressing: IIRC his reports were under orders to hand out Bibles... in Iraq.
 
2013-09-09 05:59:26 PM

loki see loki do: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

Yes.

Comeuppance is a biatch ain't it, you UberChristian farktards?

Go to church or I'll find something for you to do, my ass.


georgetakeiohmy.jpg
 
2013-09-09 06:00:41 PM
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
 
2013-09-09 06:01:27 PM

Bawdy George: Weaver95: Bawdy George: Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.
Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council

well that was a depressing read....thanks man.

Even more depressing: IIRC his reports were under orders to hand out Bibles... in Iraq.


I wonder how the religious right would react if pagans or muslims decided it was cool to use high pressure tactics like that to recruit more to their faiths?  ya think the evangelicals would be cool with it?
 
2013-09-09 06:03:03 PM

The Drawing Board: Of those who even manage to attain that rank the average time in service is over 22 years before one makes it.


That depends upon the type of service. I knew more than one 12 year chief and if I had stayed in I probably would have been one too (I was a 6 year E6 with no re-enlistment or school bump, all of my promotions were based upon points and doing well on tests). I knew very few 20 year E6's. The surface navy is different I know but in submarines they are rare.
 
2013-09-09 06:04:35 PM

Weaver95: UberDave: "Last week, Monk was supposed to meet with an Air Force investigator tasked with gathering facts about the complaint. But when he arrived, Monk was immediately read his Miranda Rights and accused of providing false statements in a conversation Monk had with me. "


I don't know about the accusation but during an investigation, everyone verbally interviewed is read Miranda Rights.  That's nothing big.

Except that a member off the armed forces doesn't have Miranda rights...least ways i never heard of it applying under the UCMJ. I could be wrong about that but...hmm. Interesting.


Yes they do. Or they did in 1978 anyway. We had an instance of Top Secret and Secret computer tapes getting out. The Secret ones had been degaused (SP?) but the Top Secret ones had not. As the head of the computer tape library for the Secret tapes, I had to testify and before they questioned me, they read me my Miranda rights.
 
2013-09-09 06:04:53 PM
The Air Force is fighting for my freedom of religion?  Against whom?
 
2013-09-09 06:08:00 PM

mitchcumstein1: cameroncrazy1984: mitchcumstein1: It's freedom of religion, not freedom to be an asshole

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a difference.

Well, then you're an asshole too. The vast majority of people who are religious aren't assholes, and you know it.


oh the irony-
trying to say hes not ===> he proves he is
 
2013-09-09 06:08:35 PM

Type_Hard: 1993: Gay service members told to 'keep it to themselves'...

2013: Bigots upset they are being told to 'keep it to themselves'...


As I spent 16 years in the Navy as a atheist (It was on my dog tags) the only word to describe this is "Irony"

/Every night underway, at 2200 (10:00 pm to you non military types) I got to hear a evening prayer even though I never believed in a magic sky daddy who can't wait to kill you for the sins he created.
 
2013-09-09 06:10:14 PM
Since when has the Air Force been fighting for my freedom of religion and who are they fighting?
 
2013-09-09 06:12:41 PM

Radioactive Ass: The Drawing Board: Of those who even manage to attain that rank the average time in service is over 22 years before one makes it.

That depends upon the type of service. I knew more than one 12 year chief and if I had stayed in I probably would have been one too (I was a 6 year E6 with no re-enlistment or school bump, all of my promotions were based upon points and doing well on tests). I knew very few 20 year E6's. The surface navy is different I know but in submarines they are rare.


Are we talking about the same branch here? The Air Force I was in has a 14 year TIS requirement before making Chief and a 12 year E-7 is considere a fairly fast burner...
 
2013-09-09 06:15:10 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Not from personal experience, I'll tell you that. My entire family is religious and they're all asshole Republicans.


well, that explains a lot
 
2013-09-09 06:16:43 PM

kronicfeld: The Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concert that Smith and others were told to attend was headlined by BarlowGirl, a "band of tender-hearted, beautiful young women who aren't afraid to take an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God," according to the group's web site.

Aggressively, militantly subservient.


That's the paradox of the military lower echelons, isn't it? Expected to be ooh-rah and aggressive, but subservient to the command chain...
 
2013-09-09 06:18:05 PM

FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?


The USAFA is in Colorado Springs.  Focus on the Family opened an "outreach center" in Colorado Springs about 15 years ago or so.  They aggressively stalked and proselytized cadets while the academy cadre either turned a blind eye, or openly cooperated with FotF.

The first crop of seniors have been hitting squadron commander billets in the past few years, which is why this shiat has gotten ridiculous lately.
 
2013-09-09 06:19:12 PM

RexTalionis: Officials at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio said that Monk and his commander had simply "agreed to disagree," adding "the wing commander said there was no punishment" for Monk's comments. Base officials stated that Monk was relieved of his duties because he was at the end of his assignment - not because of his views on LGBT issues.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/09/06/foxs-todd-starnes-christians- a re-trading-places/195753


Dammit. I saw Townhall.com and I just KNEW this was bound to be complete bullshiat. But there's a lot of people out there - I know a few - who will see this Townhall garbage and think it's true and never find out otherwise.

If there really was a hell the people who feed this kind of society wide ignorance would surely burn there some day.
 
2013-09-09 06:22:33 PM

Bawdy George: Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.
Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council


That guy sounds like a certifiable lunatic.
 
2013-09-09 06:24:51 PM

Ed Grubermann: Bawdy George: Weaver95: FlashHarry: wasn't the air force academy in colorado notorious for its proselytizing of cadets?

I believe so, yes. I'm actually more than a bit concerned at how some of the evangelical death cults have tried to convert members of the US military.
Not Air Force, but this West Point shiatstain now runs the so-called Family Research Council

That guy sounds like a certifiable lunatic.


I knew it was Crazy Jerry Boykin before I even clicked.  It doesn't even mention the part where he claims he saw demons attacking Army Rangers in Somalia.
 
2013-09-09 06:30:09 PM

Great_Milenko: Corvus: Reading the headline and seeing it's a Townhall link I am going to guess: Some asshole in the military is feeling "repressed" because he can't be intolerant to someone who has different views then him.

[i1198.photobucket.com image 300x300]


Well that saves me the trouble of further contemplating clicking on a Townhall link.

/help!we'rebeingoppressed.jpg
 
2013-09-09 06:41:41 PM

The Drawing Board: Are we talking about the same branch here? The Air Force I was in has a 14 year TIS requirement before making Chief and a 12 year E-7 is considere a fairly fast burner...


At the time (Navy by the way) the short path from E1 to E6 broke down as follows: 6 months (E1 to E2), 6 months (E2 to E3), 9 months (E3 to E4), 1 year (E4 to E5), 3 years (E5 to E6) and 4 years (E6 to E7). That's excluding any reenlistment bumps upwards. As long as you aren't in a closed rating it was fairly easy to go up as long as you know your shiat and don't get lower than ~3.8 evals. E7 was a bit harder to get due to how the selection process worked but it wasn't unheard of at all, much less rare, to have someone with 12 years in make chief as long as the billets were open. The surface navy was a different story though, mainly because there were so many people competing at the same time.

Submarines don't have a great retention rate simply because of the stress of the job so billets open fairly often. You don't see a whole lot of 30 year guys and all of them are long-time E9's at that point. I had an E8 LCPO that I worked with who hadn't even reached 20 years. He retired as an E8 because, as he put it, after then he was working for half price (meaning that he was already eligible for retirement pay at 50% of his salary so by retiring and working in the civilian sector he would be making more).
 
2013-09-09 06:44:48 PM
What the Fark does this paragraph mean
Last week, Monk was supposed to meet with an Air Force investigator tasked with gathering facts about the complaint. But when he arrived, Monk was immediately read his Miranda Rights and accused of providing false statements in a coonversation Monk had with me.

Who is me, is me referring to the author of the article?
Now back to try and read the rest of the article why do I think I am going to have more questions?
 
2013-09-09 06:46:53 PM

Bloody William: A 19-year Air Force veteran who was relieved of his duties because he disagreed with his openly gay commander over gay marriage is now facing a formal investigation after he told me his story.

[welltheresyourproblem.jpg]

If you're stupid enough to get into a religious discussion about how you think your commander's life choices are fundamentally immoral, you might not be Air Force material.


Yeeeeep. You're in the military, dumbass. If your CO says something, maybe you shouldn't respond with 'well, okay, but I think you're going to burn in Hell for it'. You will come off as insubordinate and mind-bogglingly stupid.
 
2013-09-09 06:49:13 PM
He said the Monk family has a "family ethos."

Made me think of
 Nihilists! Fark me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
 
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