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(USA Today)   Is your arm starting to hurt? I bet it's getting hot in there. Itch it   (usatoday.com) divider line 216
    More: Asinine, NASCAR, Martin Truex Jr., Michael Waltrip Racing, Flavio Briatore, Brian Vickers, Rubens Barrichello, Clint Bowyer, Richard Childress Racing  
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2310 clicks; posted to Sports » on 09 Sep 2013 at 1:14 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-10 12:17:10 AM

Clutch2013: I don't think they wanted to waste any more time building up such a case that would have broken the blatant "code" Brian Pattie used (even though they should have), especially when they had Ty Norris and the 55 dead to rights with their equally or more blatant BS.


And so we should have penalized JJ for the times this season he's let Gordon pass him to lead a lap for a point? Or Busch for allowing Kenseth...or vice-versa? Might as well face it, "team orders" have been in play ever since there was the first 2 (or more) car teams. This was no different (though more "in your face") than anything nearly every other competitive team has done, and will continue to do.

If NASCAR would uphold their own damn rules, Edwards would have been penalized for jumping the restart and the race outcome could have been different.

Now put your tinfoil hats on folks, but did you notice.that out of all the teams with drivers on the bubble EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for the contending teams finished BEHIND their driver on the bubble? All MWR drivers finished behind Truex, all Hendrick drivers finished behind Gordon, Martin finished behind Newman and Logano was behind BK. Coincidence or subtle team playing to get their drivers in the chase?

And yeah, Boyer did shred the tire...but prove he spun deliberately. He had already said prior to his "orders" that the car wasn't right. And yes, you can spin a car with a RF tire going down, if you jerk the wheel and slam the brakes to keep it from going straight for the wall. Jr. commented Boyer was riding the brakes and weaving....hell, on a short track, just flooring it in the turn would have spun him, no need for the theatrics..
 
2013-09-10 12:31:34 AM
i just suspect that bowyer will have to spin it again...because a tire is going down and take out Kasey Kahne.
 
2013-09-10 12:59:03 AM

HamstersFromHell: Clutch2013: I don't think they wanted to waste any more time building up such a case that would have broken the blatant "code" Brian Pattie used (even though they should have), especially when they had Ty Norris and the 55 dead to rights with their equally or more blatant BS.

And so we should have penalized JJ for the times this season he's let Gordon pass him to lead a lap for a point? Or Busch for allowing Kenseth...or vice-versa? Might as well face it, "team orders" have been in play ever since there was the first 2 (or more) car teams. This was no different (though more "in your face") than anything nearly every other competitive team has done, and will continue to do.

If NASCAR would uphold their own damn rules, Edwards would have been penalized for jumping the restart and the race outcome could have been different.

Now put your tinfoil hats on folks, but did you notice.that out of all the teams with drivers on the bubble EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for the contending teams finished BEHIND their driver on the bubble? All MWR drivers finished behind Truex, all Hendrick drivers finished behind Gordon, Martin finished behind Newman and Logano was behind BK. Coincidence or subtle team playing to get their drivers in the chase?

And yeah, Boyer did shred the tire...but prove he spun deliberately. He had already said prior to his "orders" that the car wasn't right. And yes, you can spin a car with a RF tire going down, if you jerk the wheel and slam the brakes to keep it from going straight for the wall. Jr. commented Boyer was riding the brakes and weaving....hell, on a short track, just flooring it in the turn would have spun him, no need for the theatrics..


Like I said earlier in this topic, that has fark all to do with what happened Saturday night.  If you have evidence that any other team out there was given orders to spin their cars deliberately or bring their cars in to pit for inexplicable reasons, and then turn laps way off race pace, please, by all means.  Post it.

That you believe anything Bowyer says after his in-car audio/video and that half-assed interview he gave after the race is...laughable, to be kind.  Two laps go by with no weaving whatsoever, and then he loops it, with no warning, from a right front.  "But you can spin it if--"  If you're driving like a farking moron.  You're telling me that a supposedly championship-caliber driver gets a flat at one of the slower points on the racetrack, and his first move is to slam on brakes.  While in traffic.
 
2013-09-10 01:50:16 AM

Clutch2013: HamstersFromHell: Clutch2013: I don't think they wanted to waste any more time building up such a case that would have broken the blatant "code" Brian Pattie used (even though they should have), especially when they had Ty Norris and the 55 dead to rights with their equally or more blatant BS.

And so we should have penalized JJ for the times this season he's let Gordon pass him to lead a lap for a point? Or Busch for allowing Kenseth...or vice-versa? Might as well face it, "team orders" have been in play ever since there was the first 2 (or more) car teams. This was no different (though more "in your face") than anything nearly every other competitive team has done, and will continue to do.

If NASCAR would uphold their own damn rules, Edwards would have been penalized for jumping the restart and the race outcome could have been different.

Now put your tinfoil hats on folks, but did you notice.that out of all the teams with drivers on the bubble EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for the contending teams finished BEHIND their driver on the bubble? All MWR drivers finished behind Truex, all Hendrick drivers finished behind Gordon, Martin finished behind Newman and Logano was behind BK. Coincidence or subtle team playing to get their drivers in the chase?

And yeah, Boyer did shred the tire...but prove he spun deliberately. He had already said prior to his "orders" that the car wasn't right. And yes, you can spin a car with a RF tire going down, if you jerk the wheel and slam the brakes to keep it from going straight for the wall. Jr. commented Boyer was riding the brakes and weaving....hell, on a short track, just flooring it in the turn would have spun him, no need for the theatrics..

Like I said earlier in this topic, that has fark all to do with what happened Saturday night.  If you have evidence that any other team out there was given orders to spin their cars deliberately or bring their cars in to pit for inexplicable reasons, and then turn laps way off race pace, please, b ...


We have telemetry, we have the video, we have observations from the car behind.  All tend to point to an intentional act to spin rather than a uncontrollable blowout.  Maybe it was a tire going down, maybe not.  It sure as hell was very convenient for him to lose that tire in that area where he spins, doesn't hit anything, with a few laps left on a night where tires weren't really an issue.

As far as the allowing team members to lead or get a lap back (slowing up under yellow cars would race back to the line to get a lap back) those are traditional acts that have existed for a long time.  They are traditionally done mid race, rather than at the end of the race.  Placing those events in the same category as what happened on Saturday is comparing apples to oranges.

I agree that Carl Edwards jumped the start and should have been penalized.  It was a blown call. However it is difficult to remedy that after the race. It is interesting that the finishing order was that way across all wildcard teams.  The difference was that MWR was overly meddling with the order while the other teams had either made arrangements prior to the race or had better coded phrases to implement that way. The message sent by hitting MWR hard hopefully will fire a warning shot to Hendrick's, Roush, and others on what will not be tolerated.  It sets a precedent that hopefully will prevent the team orders practice from escalating.

I hope Hendrick's has some expendable cars he can have Jeff Gordon play with for the next few weeks.
 
2013-09-10 01:54:19 AM
HamstersFromHell:

1) The Chase isn't going anywhere.  If you don't like it, then fine.  Jimmie Johnson finished with the most points. He's your champion, go watch football. (Yes, I know he didn't, but if it mattered he would have.)

2) There issue isn't so much with the team tanking points.  They really don't care about that.  It's the tanking of points that backs up the claim that they wrecked intentionally not only changing the race, but putting drivers (and spectators) at risk with a deliberate act.

3) Bowyer did it.  Even MWR isn't denying it or contesting the penalty

.HamstersFromHell: (Please Gawd, don't let Helton see this post, it might give him bad ideas.)

Okay, on that we agree.
 
2013-09-10 02:01:34 AM

Daedalus27: If NASCAR would uphold their own damn rules, Edwards would have been penalized for jumping the restart and the race outcome could have been different.

Now put your tinfoil hats on folks, but did you notice.that out of all the teams with drivers on the bubble EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for the contending teams finished BEHIND their driver on the bubble? All MWR drivers finished behind Truex, all Hendrick drivers finished behind Gordon, Martin finished behind Newman and Logano was behind BK. Coincidence or subtle team playing to get their drivers in the chase?

And yeah, Boyer did shred the tire...but prove he spun deliberately. He had already said prior to his "orders" that the car wasn't right. And yes, you can spin a car with a RF tire going down, if you jerk the wheel and slam the brakes to keep it from going straight for the wall. Jr. commented Boyer was riding the brakes and weaving....hell, on a short track, just flooring it in the turn would have spun him, no need for the theatrics..

Like I said earlier in this topic, that has fark all to do with what happened Saturday night.  If you have evidence that any other team out there was given orders to spin their cars deliberately or bring their cars in to pit for inexplicable reasons, and then turn laps way off race pac ...


Agreed, except on one point.   Even Menard said that he spun the tires (Remember he didn't change left sides.) on the restart (and may have made contact with the 99).  I'd go as far to say that if Edwards had braked at that point some of the cars behind them would have gotten squeezed (see Atlanta one week ago).

Understandable that no one was paying attention to Paul Menard or anything he said after that race.
 
2013-09-10 02:12:36 AM

Jensaarai: So, if working with a teammate to manipulate the points is bad, will we see NASCAR regulating all calls to pit road designed to help a teammate? How about pulling over to let your teammate get a point for leading or clinching the "leading the most laps?" Letting them around you when they're on the tail end of the lead lap? These are all common on-track behaviors.

We all know directly and intentionally wrecking championship contenders is only worthy of a slap on the wrist.


I'm disappointed, Jensaarai. I generally consider you to be smarter than that.

Letting a teammate lead a lap/pulling over to let a teammate back on the lead lap is  completely differentfrom DELIBERATELY manipulating the outcome of the Chase slotting by deliberately manipulating on-track results through team orders. F1 doesn't tolerate that crap, and now NASCAR has made it clear they won't either.
 
2013-09-10 02:22:27 AM

zanysatsuma: They take away driver points and a chase spot from the one guy on the team who didn't appear to be in on it (but was the beneficiary), while giving the guy who was behind the biggest, most dangerous, and most shameful a slap on the wrist that's functionally worthless.

NASCAR clearly doesn't understand or care why fans were truly angry here, they just threw out the most easily token penalty they could muster to beg fans to shut up. One of the blackest days in the history of the sport.


It's not as black and white as you'd like it to be.

Brian Vickers was obviously not in on it until Ty Norris told him to pit(at which point he was confused, and he was punished with a loss of owner/driver points as well. Martin Truex was penalized with the same points loss, which pushed him out of the Chase  because he was the beneficiary of that manipulation. That action delivered message that NASCAR will not tolerate deliberate manipulation of the Chase slotting.

Punishing Bowyer is difficult, because the evidence that his spin was intentional is circumstantial at best. Removing him from the Chase wipes out his  entire seasons' worth of work, which is too harsh a penalty for the stupid move he made. With Vickers, on the other hand, the radio communication is pretty damning as to what they were doing, so that was NASCAR's focal point when they sat down to work out the penalties.

So while I understand where you're coming from, if you put down the pitchfork and torch, and look at the big picture...you'll realize what I'm saying makes a hell of a lot of sense.
 
2013-09-10 07:34:30 AM

FiendishFellow05: Jensaarai: So, if working with a teammate to manipulate the points is bad, will we see NASCAR regulating all calls to pit road designed to help a teammate? How about pulling over to let your teammate get a point for leading or clinching the "leading the most laps?" Letting them around you when they're on the tail end of the lead lap? These are all common on-track behaviors.

We all know directly and intentionally wrecking championship contenders is only worthy of a slap on the wrist.

I'm disappointed, Jensaarai. I generally consider you to be smarter than that.

Letting a teammate lead a lap/pulling over to let a teammate back on the lead lap is  completely differentfrom DELIBERATELY manipulating the outcome of the Chase slotting by deliberately manipulating on-track results through team orders. F1 doesn't tolerate that crap, and now NASCAR has made it clear they won't either.


Ha, yeah. I seem to have expressed myself poorly in my attempt to play contrarian ass. Spent too much time playing with the Reddit kids these past couple days, who are almost exclusively 24 fans.

The point I was trying to make was that regardless of premeditation, team orders, or what have you, actually taking out someone who is in close contention with your teammate is much, much worse than taking yourself out of contention, even if doing so causes a game changing yellow. Both events caused a yellow. But under no circumstances can you claim MWR's move was more than a roll of the dice regarding Newman. They couldn't have known he'd get beat out of the pits by Carl, or that Carl would jump the restart. Hell, considering Bowyer's lazy spin, they couldn't have even known the yellow would fly. They manipulated their own cars, and their own cars only.

If the penalty for taking out a teammates competitor intentionally in the Chase is 1 race probation, it follows that taking yourself out intentionally must be less, regardless of team orders. Otherwise you create an incentive to go headhunting.

That is all.
 
2013-09-10 07:47:59 AM
Of course, my point is NASCAR should have penalized Gordon much more severely.

But since they didn't, and they've now brought the hammer down on MWR, I don't want any of you farkers whining when a non-Chase teammate of Chase contender starts roughing up their compatriot's main competitor while shouting "rivalry!" when a camera is in their face. This will be the result of the system NASCAR has built, and almost everyone seems fine with because it satisfies their short term sense of fairness, despite the complete lack of consistency or sense of proportionality.
 
2013-09-10 08:22:51 AM

HamstersFromHell: Clutch2013: I don't think they wanted to waste any more time building up such a case that would have broken the blatant "code" Brian Pattie used (even though they should have), especially when they had Ty Norris and the 55 dead to rights with their equally or more blatant BS.

And so we should have penalized JJ for the times this season he's let Gordon pass him to lead a lap for a point? Or Busch for allowing Kenseth...or vice-versa? Might as well face it, "team orders" have been in play ever since there was the first 2 (or more) car teams. This was no different (though more "in your face") than anything nearly every other competitive team has done, and will continue to do.

If NASCAR would uphold their own damn rules, Edwards would have been penalized for jumping the restart and the race outcome could have been different.

Now put your tinfoil hats on folks, but did you notice.that out of all the teams with drivers on the bubble EVERY SINGLE DRIVER for the contending teams finished BEHIND their driver on the bubble? All MWR drivers finished behind Truex, all Hendrick drivers finished behind Gordon, Martin finished behind Newman and Logano was behind BK. Coincidence or subtle team playing to get their drivers in the chase?

And yeah, Boyer did shred the tire...but prove he spun deliberately. He had already said prior to his "orders" that the car wasn't right. And yes, you can spin a car with a RF tire going down, if you jerk the wheel and slam the brakes to keep it from going straight for the wall. Jr. commented Boyer was riding the brakes and weaving....hell, on a short track, just flooring it in the turn would have spun him, no need for the theatrics..


Bowyer admitted to Newman he spun intentionally, but nobody with an IQ over 16 needed that admission. Stop being a homering little biatch.
 
2013-09-10 09:42:54 AM
I've been reading comments about Boyer's right front tire going down causing the spin.  Well, I might possibly buy that argument if it was the right rear tire.  Rear tire goes down, you spin.  Right front tire goes down or blows out you go straight into the wall.  I didn't think much of it until the guys in the booth called BS, then I listened to the radio chatter.  Add it all together and I think NASCAR made the best call they could.  No way in hell were they (Helton/Pemberton) going to make everyone (read: Gordon fans) happy by letting him in too.  I personally can't stand Jeff Gordon, but I hope he makes Clint Boyer's life miserable for the next ten weeks -- "accidently" of course!
 
2013-09-10 09:45:23 AM

Jensaarai: The point I was trying to make was that regardless of premeditation, team orders, or what have you, actually taking out someone who is in close contention with your teammate is much, much worse than taking yourself out of contention, even if doing so causes a game changing yellow. Both events caused a yellow. But under no circumstances can you claim MWR's move was more than a roll of the dice regarding Newman. They couldn't have known he'd get beat out of the pits by Carl, or that Carl would jump the restart. Hell, considering Bowyer's lazy spin, they couldn't have even known the yellow would fly. They manipulated their own cars, and their own cars only.

If the penalty for taking out a teammates competitor intentionally in the Chase is 1 race probation, it follows that taking yourself out intentionally must be less, regardless of team orders. Otherwise you create an incentive to go headhunting


I kinda thought poor little Jeffy's missing the chase was karma for intentionally wrecking Boyer last year. Go ahead Jeff, try to take out another chase contender, just remember, he has teammates who also have nothing to lose.

NASCAR = Nancy Ass Still Crying About Richmond
 
2013-09-10 09:52:55 AM
As someone replying to Hinton's column on ESPN commented:

"Gordon's teammate intentionally wrecked in the middle of green flag pit stops while running 28 laps down, trapping 8 cars better than the 24 a lap down and moving Gordon from outside the Chase to inside. But because he made this move with 50 laps to go instead of 8 it's ok? I don't think so. Gordon does not deserve to be in the Chase."
 
2013-09-10 09:58:04 AM
Robby Gordon in 2005: "Michael Waltrip is not the nice guy that everybody thinks he is. He spun me out, and he wrecked me. He's a piece of shiat."
 
2013-09-10 09:59:56 AM
It's OK If You Are Gordon.

IOKIYAG
 
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