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8615 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Sep 2013 at 11:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-09 12:11:41 PM  

bluefoxicy: gfid: I don't care if they tax it either.

"Marijuana was supposed to be taxed and regulated like alcohol, not tobacco,"

Go cry some more, biatches. When they increased tobacco taxes you said nothing. The cost of a carton went from $48 to $75 before the taxes even took effect and no, the increase in taxes wasn't enough to justify that price increase.

The funny thing is they're also going to argue, as folks always have, that pot is less bad for you than alcohol and so it doesn't make sense to tax it this way.  Never mind that most people smoke it, which inserts hot ash into the lungs, which is terribly bad like tobacco.  Never mind that when we industrialize it, we'll add a ton of chemicals like with tobacco.  It'll be just as bad, and people will be mad that we're taxing funny-smelling cigarettes like cigarettes instead of like alcohol.

Don't they realize the taxes are all arbitrary?  This high tax is a revenue generating risk control to offset the failed Obamacare costs from increased healthcare problems.  Nobody can agree on how much health damage this will cause in general, so they're making conservative risk estimates and thus estimating high and mitigating with high taxes.  This may reduce risk beyond actual risk into an excessively high perceived risk, but at least they won't come up short when the public health cost impact hits.  It's that line of thinking.

It is also that pot is bad and we are giving a sin tax on this stuff to make bad people pay a tithe for being bad and doing such bad things, so of course it's very palatable.  A high tax accomplishes every conceivable goal, as long as it's kept below the market cost of illegal dealings--if we can manufacture this stuff more cheaply on an industrial scale and a 100% tax mark-up still brings a product at a price too low for small illegal dealers to make good business from, then a 100% tax mark-up really still accomplishes our goals as it will push the illegal element out and draw tons of revenue and disc ...


you are a moron.
 
2013-09-09 12:13:15 PM  

Smidge204: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Try reading the article next time. They want it to be taxed like alcohol.

Yes, and Legal, taxed pot alcohol will always be more expensive than illegal, untaxed pot alcohol. Market forces will push people to continue buying from illegal sources.

=Smidge=
/Insert some witty comment about not reading here


Yes, that's what the other person said, then you said.. (and I wonder why you left this part out of your reply)

Just like with alcohol.
=Smidge=


I assumed you were being sarcastic because illegal alcohol hasn't been a big business since capone's day, and this had something to do with the comment you responded to.  Am I right so far?  Well, take a step back and look at the framework of your entire exchange, and then look at the article.  Nobody is complaining about a tax itself, just the amount of the tax. Get it?
 
2013-09-09 12:15:03 PM  

bjcpc0337: Legalized pot means you don't go to jail just because you possess some, not bargain prices.  If that were true then moonshine would have dissappeared decades ago.  Legal pot is also certified to be pot, pure & simple.  So help a school district and local firestation get appropriate funding, fire up a bowl and get yourself stoned to the bone!


Erm...most of the places that still have a thriving moonshine industry (as opposed to 100-proof white dog being sold in stores as "legal moonshine") are in fact areas where Prohibition never ended; much of Appalachian Kentucky, as well as good portions of Appalachia in other states, are dry counties or are (at most) moist.

The moonshiners and bootleggers survive (and in the case of bootleggers, sell even beer from Jellico at a SUBSTANTIAL markup) because in a fair amount of those areas there is no other option for booze.  Interestingly, the bootleggers selling a 6-pack of Budweiser at ridiculous cost are also often the same ones involved in the pot and meth and oxy and heroin trades there, too; the moonshiners actually tend to be the LESS skeevy ones in that at MOST the only other illegal substance they tend to deal in is weed, if that.

In fact--to give even more of a parallel to what certain states out west are deciding re recreational marijuana (and shooting moar holes in your argument)...in Kentucky, there is FINALLY starting to be a trend by Appalachian counties along major highways (primarily along I-75 and US 25E) to go moist or wet...because not only were they losing tax revenue to Jellico and other wet border communities, but because they were starting to lose business opportunities (many of the "casual dining" chains in the US like Ruby Tuesday's and Red Robin and TGI Friday's and O'Charley's and Applebee's were starting to put their foot down and state they would NOT open a restaurant franchise there unless they were allowed to sell liquor by the drink and sell mixed drinks).  And yes, they had the EXACT same sorts of Moral Panic ensue over alcohol sales as what tends to go on re marijuana (and by the same groups--law enforcement (making some money off civil forefeiture in bootlegging cases and suspected to be supported by bootleggers) and largely dominionist "Moral Mommies" type teetotaler groups)...and about the only effect that's happened is that the likes of Corbin now get tax money for beer and there is talk of moonshiners going legal in craft distilleries.

(Yes, this has happened too--a rather famous moonshining operation in Land Between the Lakes has in fact gone legal and sells its own white dog now. :D  The state is overtly friendly to very small batch craft distillers, and actively promotes the industry.)

Hell, Pigeon Forge pretty much just went wet for the same reason--restaurants wanted to serve beer and were threatening to move unless they could get liquor licenses, plus they undoubtedly saw how much money Gatlinburg and Sevierville make off of craft breweries and (more recently) craft distilleries in both sales and tourism money.  (Pigeon Forge--like Kentucky--apparently did have a "wineries exemption" to allow sampling and sales at the wineries in that city, but did not have a similar exemption for microbreweries or microdistilleries.)
 
2013-09-09 12:17:32 PM  

devildog123: Almost everyone I knew who supported legalization used as one of their arguments "we could tax it, and all that money would go to the government".  So, now that it's legal, they're pissed that Colorado is going to tax their weed?  Jesus, be grateful you won, and accept that what you claimed was a positive of the legislation has come to pass.


I don't think they're pissed that they're going to tax it... I think they're pissed about the rates. I mean, I'd be kind of ticked at a 50% sales tax too. Everyone got on the taxation bandwagon, so the state, cities, counties, and transportation districts are all imposing their own sales taxes, most of them 15% or more *each* onto it. Imagine if they tried to tax alcohol like that... people would be calling it the new prohibition movement and protesting loudly too.
 
2013-09-09 12:31:16 PM  

knowless: WTF Indeed: Legal, taxed pot will always be more expensive than illegal, untaxed pot. Market forces will push people to continue buying from illegal sources.

Who do you know that bothers growing their own tobacco? Eventually legal weed will become so ubiquitous that procuring it otherwise will seem silly.

..buy moonshine because potters just ain't cheap enough? I mean, besides people that drink mouthwash and rubbing alcohol?

The only people buying weed illegally will eventually be teenagers waiting outside a 7-11.

Market forces will stabilise the price between the two, convenience is a market force.


Plus, let's not ignore the fact that there are some serious barriers to entry into the moonshine market. If I wanted to start cranking out "Gonz' Hi-Powered Hooch" today, I'd need to do some heavy investment. First off, I'd need to acquire a still, which isn't cheap. Then, I'd need to have a fairly substantial time investment while I learned how to make some wine or something to distill. (OK, I already know how to make wine, but bear with me.) Then, I'm going to have to learn how to operate my still.

Combine that with the fact that I'm risking some serious jail time for making an illegal product, and I can pretty much guarantee that I'm going to need to price my product higher than the bottom-shelf vodka... which is defeating the purpose. If I was trying to become some sort of craft distillery, cranking out exotic brandies or whiskies, it would be one thing. If I'm trying to make cheap moonshine in order to go low end? That's an unsustainable business model.
 
2013-09-09 12:31:24 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Well, take a step back and look at the framework of your entire exchange, and then look at the article. Nobody is complaining about a tax itself, just the amount of the tax. Get it?


The original post was in reply to the assertion that taxation would necessarily create a black market from the cost difference, and did not in any way address the tax rate but merely compared taxed to untaxed pot. My comment was in direct response to that comment, which implied that the fact legal alcohol was taxed did not make illegal, untaxed alcohol exceedingly problematic. The amount of tax never entered into this exchange, regardless of the article's contents.

"Welcome to Fark, you'll get over it."
=Smidge=
 
2013-09-09 12:36:36 PM  

walkerhound: Gneisskate: Don't use it myself, but a 30% tax does seem excessive.  Does anyone know what comparable taxes are for alcohol and tobacco?

8c per gallon for most beers, wines, ciders and 60c per liter for spirits; 4.2c per cigarrette in Colorado.

I don't know the law, but whatever was in writing should remain in writing.  If something was "promised," then kids need to learn a lesson on getting things in writing.


Tom_Slick: Gneisskate: Don't use it myself, but a 30% tax does seem excessive.  Does anyone know what comparable taxes are for alcohol and tobacco?

Cigarettes, $1.01 per pack federal, plus whatever the state adds on, plus regular local sales tax.

Liquor,  $13.50 per gallon, Fed plus state, plus local sales tax.


So it's by volume, and then sales tax on top.  I would agree that this would drive quality up, as it's relatively less of a penalty on higher quality goods.  Arranging the tax in that manner would make sense.
 
2013-09-09 12:45:24 PM  

Coco LaFemme: You know, I get why coke, heroin, crack, and meth are illegal.....but why is a plant illegal?  I don't do drugs myself, so I've got no dog in the hunt, but it's always puzzled me why something as physically and socially destructive as meth is put in the same group as pot.  Methheads will kill....what's a pothead going to kill?  A couple Nachos Bel Grande from Taco Bell?


The way I heard it, hemp is illegal because of the paper industry.  Some guy with a mill wanted people to continue making paper from trees rather than hemp.
 
2013-09-09 12:59:41 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: bjcpc0337: Legalized pot means you don't go to jail just because you possess some, not bargain prices.  If that were true then moonshine would have dissappeared decades ago.  Legal pot is also certified to be pot, pure & simple.  So help a school district and local firestation get appropriate funding, fire up a bowl and get yourself stoned to the bone!

Erm...most of the places that still have a thriving moonshine industry (as opposed to 100-proof white dog being sold in stores as "legal moonshine") are in fact areas where Prohibition never ended; much of Appalachian Kentucky, as well as good portions of Appalachia in other states, are dry counties or are (at most) moist.

The moonshiners and bootleggers survive (and in the case of bootleggers, sell even beer from Jellico at a SUBSTANTIAL markup) because in a fair amount of those areas there is no other option for booze.  Interestingly, the bootleggers selling a 6-pack of Budweiser at ridiculous cost are also often the same ones involved in the pot and meth and oxy and heroin trades there, too; the moonshiners actually tend to be the LESS skeevy ones in that at MOST the only other illegal substance they tend to deal in is weed, if that.

In fact--to give even more of a parallel to what certain states out west are deciding re recreational marijuana (and shooting moar holes in your argument)...in Kentucky, there is FINALLY starting to be a trend by Appalachian counties along major highways (primarily along I-75 and US 25E) to go moist or wet...because not only were they losing tax revenue to Jellico and other wet border communities, but because they were starting to lose business opportunities (many of the "casual dining" chains in the US like Ruby Tuesday's and Red Robin and TGI Friday's and O'Charley's and Applebee's were starting to put their foot down and state they would NOT open a restaurant franchise there unless they were allowed to sell liquor by the drink and sell mixed drinks).  And yes, they had the EXACT ...


That's some interesting diatribe, but if Applebees or Red Robin threatened not to open a restaurant in my town I'd say "Good."  I can understand their position though - booze is money and if you can't sell booze you're not going to make money.

As far as mioonshine goes, I wouldn't even know where to get any  I just drive up to the liquor store and buy my legal and taxed booze whenever I want (unless it's after midnight, which kind of sucks but not enough for me to find a moonshiner).

The same arguments people make about growing your own pot can be made about distilling your own liquor.  I don't even know anyone who brews their own beer although supposedly it's easy.  I've met a few people here and there that either made vodak or brewed home beer, but they are not the norm.  Most of us will just go to the store and buy it and that's how it will be with pot.

When I'm finally able to walk into a store with a business license and buy a big bag of weed legally as far as state laws are concerned it's going to completely change things in the pot black market.

My only real worry is why am I not jumping on the bandwagon?  I should have a business plan and a lease in a strip mall so I can start selling.  The only concern is if the next president decides to crack down and I don't think that's likely because the tide has turned.

Or maybe I should get a liquor store.....one of my former co-workers has a liquor store now.  The money just flows.  It's amazing.  Hire some flunkies, stock up the shelves and you're like scrooge mcduck
 
2013-09-09 01:00:32 PM  
They tax Tobacco and Alcohol, so just get over it.
 
2013-09-09 01:12:17 PM  
I've never tried pot and I probably never will. However, I fully support legalization for 3 key reasons:

1. Financial. We spend an absolutely ridiculous amount of money each year trying to stop the flow of marijuana, and we're failing horribly. Legalize it and tax it, and we'll save a huge amount on the enforcement, prosecution and incarceration end and make a ton on the tax side. Win-win.

2. Open it up for medical studies. I've seen some pretty good anecdotal evidence that marijuana or marijuana extracts could have some very good, legitimate medical uses. Maybe it's all bullshiat too, but I think it's worth the effort to do some actual scientific studies on the issue and find out for sure. We can't do that as long as it is classified as a Schedule 1 substance.

3. It will get the hippie legalization crowd to just shut the fark up already.

So now we're finally at a point where we're experimenting with legalization. We still can't do studies because the legal classification at the federal level hasn't changed, so #2 is still out at this point. On top of that, the goddamn hippies are still whining (#3) about #1. Congratulations, potheads. You're almost making me reconsider my entire position on the topic.
 
2013-09-09 01:28:07 PM  
If I had a food truck I'd be set up well before dawn in a primo spot.

And sell tacos.  Lots of tacos.
 
2013-09-09 01:31:31 PM  

RickN99: If I had a food truck I'd be set up well before dawn in a primo spot.

And sell tacos.  Lots of tacos.


Heady veggie burritos are better, bro.
 
2013-09-09 01:59:56 PM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Smidge204: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Try reading the article next time. They want it to be taxed like alcohol.

Yes, and Legal, taxed pot alcohol will always be more expensive than illegal, untaxed pot alcohol. Market forces will push people to continue buying from illegal sources.

=Smidge=
/Insert some witty comment about not reading here

Yes, that's what the other person said, then you said.. (and I wonder why you left this part out of your reply)

Just like with alcohol.
=Smidge=

I assumed you were being sarcastic because illegal alcohol hasn't been a big business since capone's day, and this had something to do with the comment you responded to.  Am I right so far?  Well, take a step back and look at the framework of your entire exchange, and then look at the article.  Nobody is complaining about a tax itself, just the amount of the tax. Get it?


It's almost as if the entire exchange between the two of them was tangential to the article.  Get it?
 
2013-09-09 02:06:44 PM  

mod3072: 3. It will get the hippie legalization crowd to just shut the fark up already.


You'll never achieve this goal.  You could legalize pot and send them an unlimited supply of patchouli soaked nymphets and they still wouldn't shut up.  Even if you did all that and achieved world peace and saved all the whales, they would never shut up.

Hippies exist for one reason and that's to annoy you.

/hippy
 
2013-09-09 02:29:08 PM  

gfid: mod3072: 3. It will get the hippie legalization crowd to just shut the fark up already.

You'll never achieve this goal.  You could legalize pot and send them an unlimited supply of patchouli soaked nymphets and they still wouldn't shut up.  Even if you did all that and achieved world peace and saved all the whales, they would never shut up.

Hippies exist for one reason and that's to annoy you.

/hippy


Hmmm... Maybe Cartman was right about you guys...
 
2013-09-09 02:36:14 PM  
I'm sure the 300 homeless people that hang out there all day have already snatched all the freebees up by now. Downtown sucks.
 
2013-09-09 02:58:19 PM  

mod3072: gfid: mod3072: 3. It will get the hippie legalization crowd to just shut the fark up already.

You'll never achieve this goal.  You could legalize pot and send them an unlimited supply of patchouli soaked nymphets and they still wouldn't shut up.  Even if you did all that and achieved world peace and saved all the whales, they would never shut up.

Hippies exist for one reason and that's to annoy you.

/hippy

Hmmm... Maybe Cartman was right about you guys...


heh - actually, here's the key to shutting up a hippy.  Hand him a bong.
 
2013-09-09 04:08:44 PM  
Because it is legal to grow your own plants in Colorado, any person with a green thumb who can keep the spider mites out of their crop can grow more than their personal needs.  There will be plenty of cannabis to supply the black market and high taxes insures that there will be a black market.  This gives cops an opportunity to do undercover drug investigations and dramatic drug busts they so love.

It is kind of like a local disc golf course that charges $5 per round and employs a guard to insure that people are paying the fee.  Where does the $5 a round go?  To the guard that insures that you pay the fee.
 
2013-09-09 04:30:08 PM  

pacified: you are a moron.


Why?  Because all I did was repeat back how the world has always worked, how it works now, and how the current behaviors will re-assert themselves in exactly the same way in this new medium (taxation of marijuana, instead of cigarettes or alcohol), rather than actually adding anything new?  I mean, everything I said was correct.  Not really creative or ground-breaking genius, but correct and visible in the current state of the world.
 
2013-09-09 07:49:49 PM  

Coco LaFemme: I don't do drugs myself, so I've got no dog in the hunt


Tom_Slick: I don't care if it is legal or not, I don't use it and have no desire to use it


This sentiment is often repeated and I don't get how someone could feel this way.  Is it mental simplicity?  Spinelessness?

Would you say something like, "I'm not political and I don't speak in public, so I don't care if free speech is legal or not"?  That sounds amazingly stupid and cowardly, doesn't it?

The government is telling you what you can and can't do with your own body on your own property.  Regardless of the specifics, that should be fueling massive outrage.
 
2013-09-09 10:55:51 PM  
I want to open a grow supply store here in CO in the old blockbuster building by my house. It's the selling the shovel business model and I'd see how the retails sales go before I would dip my toe in that ocean.
 
2013-09-10 01:16:00 AM  

Precision Boobery: Coco LaFemme: I don't do drugs myself, so I've got no dog in the hunt

Tom_Slick: I don't care if it is legal or not, I don't use it and have no desire to use it

This sentiment is often repeated and I don't get how someone could feel this way.  Is it mental simplicity?  Spinelessness?

Would you say something like, "I'm not political and I don't speak in public, so I don't care if free speech is legal or not"?  That sounds amazingly stupid and cowardly, doesn't it?

The government is telling you what you can and can't do with your own body on your own property.  Regardless of the specifics, that should be fueling massive outrage.


Well you can't kill a guy on your own property right?
 
2013-09-10 09:54:42 PM  

alice_600: Well you can't kill a guy on your own property right?


Are you illiterate or just stupid?
 
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