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(Salon)   America has a secret defense to protect the nation against a chemical weapons attack   (salon.com) divider line 74
    More: Spiffy, pandemic influenza, control structure, food contamination, nuclear device, ports of entry, biological attacks, bioterror, meat packing plant  
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11973 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Sep 2013 at 10:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-09 09:37:48 AM  
Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?
 
2013-09-09 09:37:51 AM  
Ooooh, Salon is so groundbreaking.

The Andromeda Strain was published in 1969.
The Hot Zone in 1994.
The Pentagon has been doing paper and live-action wargames for chem/bio traditional warfare (Warsaw Pact, etc) since forever.  And they've been doing those for assymetrical warfare since the Tokyo Aum Shinrikyo subway attack in 1995, if not before.

/old news is so exciting
 
2013-09-09 10:04:34 AM  
I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good
 
2013-09-09 10:29:57 AM  

RedPhoenix122: Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?


Damn, that was the first thing I thought of too.  Kudos, sir.

/woot canal
 
2013-09-09 10:30:40 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good


Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.
 
2013-09-09 10:31:03 AM  
It's called operation Jumbo Shrip and it involves every civilian simply being so fat and cholesterol riddled that conventional chemical weapons simply don't pack the punch to put one down.

Kind of like how a Mancubus from Doom can take 3 whole rocket blasts while an imp can be put down with just one.
 
2013-09-09 10:31:24 AM  
Attack from where? Unless Assad plans to invade Canada in order to launch rockets into America I think we are pretty safe.
 
2013-09-09 10:31:43 AM  
Duck and cover?
 
2013-09-09 10:35:36 AM  
Spiffy?  The point of the article was that a bunch of Washington power brokers terrified of ill-defined threats created a massive detection system that went far beyond what was justified.
 
2013-09-09 10:37:46 AM  

Mentat: Spiffy?  The point of the article was that a bunch of Washington power brokers terrified of ill-defined threats created a massive detection system that went far beyond what was justified.


Which, when you think of it, is kinda par for the course, really.
 
2013-09-09 10:38:35 AM  
Dammit Salon, now its not a secret!
 
2013-09-09 10:39:36 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good


As much as the duct tape and plastic sheeting was mocked, it was not only damned good advice but it was taken pretty much verbatum from one of the textbooks from the US Army chemical defense course.  I'd taken it recently (getting that 54B20 MOS), and when I heard them giving that advice back in 2001 my blood ran cold.

I assume the secret plan is a combination of various military types and the coordination with first responders, law enforcement and the like that happened during the Bush years.  The weakness is still, IMHO the lack of free hospital beds in just about every metro area.  The hospital system is pretty lean, and that means that there isn't much slack to take up a mass casualty event.
 
2013-09-09 10:39:41 AM  

Weatherkiss: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.


By an odd coincidence...
 
2013-09-09 10:39:53 AM  

FrancoFile:
The Hot Zone in 1994.


I grew up a few towns over from the ebola outbreak, and I do remember the local networks mentioning this in an almost nonchalant way, but with footage of army men in the yellow hazmat suits quarantining the area. It terrified the bejesus out of the people in the county. yeesh.

Read the book. Pretty eerie stuff, man.
 
2013-09-09 10:41:06 AM  

Weatherkiss: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.


Honestly, something like that happening in the middle of nowhere, or in a bunch of tiny little rural towns would probably cause the most chaos. Everyone expects it to happen in a big city, but if you give every wee town good cause to panic, I think it would be more devastating.
 
2013-09-09 10:41:50 AM  
America has a secret defense to protect the nation government against a chemical weapons attack

Fixed that for Subby.
 
2013-09-09 10:43:10 AM  
img.mundochica.com

swimwearandlingerie.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-09-09 10:43:12 AM  
It wouldn't be duct tape and calamine lotion by any chance?
 
2013-09-09 10:45:45 AM  

fireclown: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

As much as the duct tape and plastic sheeting was mocked, it was not only damned good advice but it was taken pretty much verbatum from one of the textbooks from the US Army chemical defense course.  I'd taken it recently (getting that 54B20 MOS), and when I heard them giving that advice back in 2001 my blood ran cold.

I assume the secret plan is a combination of various military types and the coordination with first responders, law enforcement and the like that happened during the Bush years.  The weakness is still, IMHO the lack of free hospital beds in just about every metro area.  The hospital system is pretty lean, and that means that there isn't much slack to take up a mass casualty event.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/ducttape.asp
 
2013-09-09 10:45:56 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [img.mundochica.com image 500x388]

[swimwearandlingerie.files.wordpress.com image 537x340]


I'd gas mask her, if ya know what I mean, and I think you do.
 
2013-09-09 10:46:22 AM  

FrancoFile: Ooooh, Salon is so groundbreaking.

The Andromeda Strain was published in 1969.
The Hot Zone in 1994.
The Pentagon has been doing paper and live-action wargames for chem/bio traditional warfare (Warsaw Pact, etc) since forever.  And they've been doing those for assymetrical warfare since the Tokyo Aum Shinrikyo subway attack in 1995, if not before.

/old news is so exciting


The government has secret plans for all sorts of stuff, no matter how unlikely. Hell, one of the editions of this book:

ecx.images-amazon.com

Even had a chapter on what firefighters should do if they run into a downed alien spacecraft. It's incredibly unlikely something like that would happen, but you might as well have a plan in place just in case the unthinkable suddenly becomes thinkable.
 
2013-09-09 10:47:18 AM  
llamabutchers.mu.nu

Carts, lots of carts.


/as hot as your anthrax fever
 
2013-09-09 10:48:25 AM  

PizzaJedi81: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [img.mundochica.com image 500x388]

[swimwearandlingerie.files.wordpress.com image 537x340]

I'd gas mask her, if ya know what I mean, and I think you do.


That's a woman who has obviously had to face the horrors of the Dutch Oven.
 
2013-09-09 10:49:02 AM  
There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.
 
2013-09-09 10:49:32 AM  
The Bioterrorism Act, passed by Congress after the anthrax letters, dragooned the Food and Drug Administration into service with authorities to detect and respond to the possible adulteration of food products.

Because if there's one thing the FDA is famous for, it's keeping toxic crap out of our food products.
 
2013-09-09 10:50:47 AM  

give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.


Aside from striking the evildoers preemptively, thus negating their ability to possibly attack.
 
2013-09-09 10:51:41 AM  
www.smh.com.au
 
2013-09-09 10:53:00 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good


It's amazing how quickly those in positions of authority make snap decisions without bothering to ask experts, even when such expertise is readily available. There's a president of a company who had chem/bio experts on staff who went and bought painter's masks for everyone in case of a CW attack. That left the CW experts facepalming, and they were on the same floor as the president, so there was no excuse not to ask. (In fact, I think that, at the time, they were three doors down.)
 
2013-09-09 10:53:19 AM  

darth_badger: [llamabutchers.mu.nu image 800x441]

Carts, lots of carts.

/as hot as your anthrax fever


You laugh, but that basically IS the plan in the event of another 1918-style influenza outbreak.
Sure, they'll go balls-out for a vaccine, but, basically, we're reliant on old-school "isolate patients and let it burn itself out" for a lot of potential threats.
 
2013-09-09 10:54:51 AM  

NutWrench: The Bioterrorism Act, passed by Congress after the anthrax letters, dragooned the Food and Drug Administration into service with authorities to detect and respond to the possible adulteration of food products.

Because if there's one thing the FDA is famous for, it's keeping toxic crap out of our food products.


We'll be ok, so long as the terrorists don't hire lobbyists :)

"Put Sarin on the G.R.A.S. list?  sure thing, Mr. Former Senator."
 
2013-09-09 10:55:27 AM  
i've always wondered if the cholinergic ones could be beat down by atropine or benadryl.
 
2013-09-09 10:55:34 AM  

croesius: Weatherkiss: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.

Honestly, something like that happening in the middle of nowhere, or in a bunch of tiny little rural towns would probably cause the most chaos. Everyone expects it to happen in a big city, but if you give every wee town good cause to panic, I think it would be more devastating.


I'd always thought the best target for terrorism would be a small midwestern city. At the moment, only people who actually live inside a big city (or DC) are really all that threatened. If you want to terrorize a country, make it clear you're willing to kill people in Cairo, IL or something.
 
2013-09-09 10:57:33 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Even had a chapter on what firefighters should do if they run into a downed alien spacecraft. It's incredibly unlikely something like that would happen, but you might as well have a plan in place just in case the unthinkable suddenly becomes thinkable.


This is one of the things that pisses me off about conspiracy theorists. "OMG! The government had a PLAN for the invasion of Syria for YEARS! They must've been intending to invade, and this is all a smokescreen!" It makes me want to ask, "Do you have a fire extinguisher in your house? Yes? Does your insurance company know you intend to set fire to your house?"
 
2013-09-09 10:58:56 AM  

give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.


All you can do is mitigate them. And even then, it requires buy-in by the population for the mitigation to work. The US gov't could issue high-end NBC gear to everyone, but if it just sits mouldering in the bottom of people's closets, that won't help much.
 
2013-09-09 10:59:10 AM  

Comic Book Guy: RedPhoenix122: Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?

Damn, that was the first thing I thought of too.  Kudos, sir.

/woot canal


I always loved that episode....

//They were just mad at me for imposing discipline and calling them stupid.
 
2013-09-09 11:00:43 AM  

Publikwerks: Comic Book Guy: RedPhoenix122: Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?

Damn, that was the first thing I thought of too.  Kudos, sir.

/woot canal

I always loved that episode....

//They were just mad at me for imposing discipline and calling them stupid.


So not only did you invent a secret plan to fight inflation but now you're against it?
 
2013-09-09 11:00:52 AM  

vygramul: give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.

All you can do is mitigate them. And even then, it requires buy-in by the population for the mitigation to work. The US gov't could issue high-end NBC gear to everyone, but if it just sits mouldering in the bottom of people's closets, that won't help much.


And to think people laughed at me when I got the custom embroidered Jay Leno letter jacket!
 
2013-09-09 11:01:49 AM  

vygramul: I'd always thought the best target for terrorism would be a small midwestern city. At the moment, only people who actually live inside a big city (or DC) are really all that threatened. If you want to terrorize a country, make it clear you're willing to kill people in Cairo, IL or something.


I thought the flyover state people were already freaked out disproportionately. Most big city residents seem to actually be pretty blasé about the threat of an attack, while people in Bumblefark, MT are amassing small arsenals and outfitting their homes to ride out a combination of nuclear war and Sharknado outbreak.
 
2013-09-09 11:03:54 AM  
Living downwind of Dugway is one of the few "on the other hands" of where my ranch is ...
 
2013-09-09 11:05:35 AM  
Wait, you're telling me that government eggheads have spent the last forever working up theoretical threats and then creating multiple plans to deal with said threats, with alternate plans also designed in case of just about every possible contingency and/or shifting detail?

NO WAI
 
2013-09-09 11:06:43 AM  

fireclown: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

As much as the duct tape and plastic sheeting was mocked, it was not only damned good advice but it was taken pretty much verbatum from one of the textbooks from the US Army chemical defense course.  I'd taken it recently (getting that 54B20 MOS), and when I heard them giving that advice back in 2001 my blood ran cold.

I assume the secret plan is a combination of various military types and the coordination with first responders, law enforcement and the like that happened during the Bush years.  The weakness is still, IMHO the lack of free hospital beds in just about every metro area.  The hospital system is pretty lean, and that means that there isn't much slack to take up a mass casualty event.


This.  Back in the pre-9/11 days, I used to work with the guys who developed these plans. The fears are NOT terribly overstated, nor are they without foundation.

The real problem is the under-regulated food production system, which relies on allowing immense corporations to self-police and self-monitor.  The extent to which private interests and profit motives have corrupted that entire apparatus is appalling, and it really does leave us ripe for food sector based attacks.

If you got some kind of disease vector into the food chain at major donut shops and bakeries and diners in a big city, you really could cripple the emergency response capabilities -- joking aside, cops and firemen and EMTs tend to need high-calorie easily eaten food to keep going for long hours, and some well-placed non-lethal bioterrorism before a major attack could keep first responders from effectively dealing with the repercussions of that attack.

Now realize that domestic terrorists have done more damage to us at home than any foreign source has done, and that a fair number of those have been from people in trusted positions.

So while vigilance on our own government's excesses is important, it's tempting to see this sort of scenario as far-fetched fiction, when in fact it's more astounding that these vectors haven't yet been used.
 
2013-09-09 11:07:51 AM  

vygramul: give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.

All you can do is mitigate them. And even then, it requires buy-in by the population for the mitigation to work. The US gov't could issue high-end NBC gear to everyone, but if it just sits mouldering in the bottom of people's closets, that won't help much.


The best way to ensure that we don't become a target of CWs or any other WMD attack is to make the price of that attack so very high and costly that only the insane would consider doing so.
 
2013-09-09 11:07:57 AM  

vygramul: croesius: Weatherkiss: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.

Honestly, something like that happening in the middle of nowhere, or in a bunch of tiny little rural towns would probably cause the most chaos. Everyone expects it to happen in a big city, but if you give every wee town good cause to panic, I think it would be more devastating.

I'd always thought the best target for terrorism would be a small midwestern city. At the moment, only people who actually live inside a big city (or DC) are really all that threatened. If you want to terrorize a country, make it clear you're willing to kill people in Cairo, IL or something.


I think you could achieve the same results by machine gunning down an outdoor hot spot. Say like a massively popular Ice Cream place on a hot Saturday night. Ted Drew's in St. Louis is a perfect example of this. Friend of mine took me by there this summer and the people were standing in the street waiting to order ice cream. There must have been around 30-50 of them. One van, three or four shooters with machine guns could get most of the crowd, scaring the shiat out of ma and pa America.
 
2013-09-09 11:08:02 AM  

RedPhoenix122: Publikwerks: Comic Book Guy: RedPhoenix122: Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?

Damn, that was the first thing I thought of too.  Kudos, sir.

/woot canal

I always loved that episode....

//They were just mad at me for imposing discipline and calling them stupid.

So not only did you invent a secret plan to fight inflation but now you're against it?


Fwaggy Bwattomw.

/One of my favorite episodes.
//JOSHUWAAAAA!
 
2013-09-09 11:08:44 AM  

wraithmare: RedPhoenix122: Publikwerks: Comic Book Guy: RedPhoenix122: Is that anything like a secret plan to fight inflation?

Damn, that was the first thing I thought of too.  Kudos, sir.

/woot canal

I always loved that episode....

//They were just mad at me for imposing discipline and calling them stupid.

So not only did you invent a secret plan to fight inflation but now you're against it?

Fwaggy Bwattomw.

/One of my favorite episodes.
//JOSHUWAAAAA!


The only way today could get any worse is if Roberto Mendoza got involved.
 
2013-09-09 11:15:55 AM  
If I wanted to read a preview of your book, I would use the Amazon "Look Inside" thing.
 
2013-09-09 11:17:51 AM  

BafflerMeal: fireclown: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

As much as the duct tape and plastic sheeting was mocked, it was not only damned good advice but it was taken pretty much verbatum from one of the textbooks from the US Army chemical defense course.  I'd taken it recently (getting that 54B20 MOS), and when I heard them giving that advice back in 2001 my blood ran cold.

I assume the secret plan is a combination of various military types and the coordination with first responders, law enforcement and the like that happened during the Bush years.  The weakness is still, IMHO the lack of free hospital beds in just about every metro area.  The hospital system is pretty lean, and that means that there isn't much slack to take up a mass casualty event.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/ducttape.asp


Now THAT'S interesting.  We talked about the possibility of that happening, but the general thinking from on high was that most houses have enough cracks to allow some gas exchange.   Also, buttoning up your place is generally a pretty short term measure.

Thanks for the snopes .
 
2013-09-09 11:28:04 AM  

Infernalist: vygramul: give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.

All you can do is mitigate them. And even then, it requires buy-in by the population for the mitigation to work. The US gov't could issue high-end NBC gear to everyone, but if it just sits mouldering in the bottom of people's closets, that won't help much.

The best way to ensure that we don't become a target of CWs or any other WMD attack is to make the price of that attack so very high and costly that only the insane would consider doing so.


Well now, that just sounds MAD.
 
2013-09-09 11:30:00 AM  

vygramul: croesius: Weatherkiss: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I still got duct tape and plastic sheeting left over from 2001

/I'm good

Just make sure you live out in the middle of bumfark nowhere, because that's where the turrists would logically launch a chemical attack.

Honestly, something like that happening in the middle of nowhere, or in a bunch of tiny little rural towns would probably cause the most chaos. Everyone expects it to happen in a big city, but if you give every wee town good cause to panic, I think it would be more devastating.

I'd always thought the best target for terrorism would be a small midwestern city. At the moment, only people who actually live inside a big city (or DC) are really all that threatened. If you want to terrorize a country, make it clear you're willing to kill people in Cairo, IL or something.


You ever been to Cairo? I think it'd take four weeks for anyone outside of Cairo to notice.
 
2013-09-09 11:34:54 AM  

Infernalist: vygramul: give me doughnuts: There is no realistic way to protect a large civilian population from chemical or biological attacks.

All you can do is mitigate them. And even then, it requires buy-in by the population for the mitigation to work. The US gov't could issue high-end NBC gear to everyone, but if it just sits mouldering in the bottom of people's closets, that won't help much.

The best way to ensure that we don't become a target of CWs or any other WMD attack is to make the price of that attack so very high and costly that only the insane would consider doing so.


Or we could stop being dicks on a planetary scale, so people don't want to attack us.
Consider out neighbor to the North. Have any terrorist groups made a credible threat to Canada?

How about the Scandanavian countries? Does al-Qaeda ever shout "Death to Finland!"
 
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