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(Chicago Sun-Times)   Illinois, the exemplar of fiscal responsibility, just paid $481K for 4 chandeliers and 2 sculptures. Which makes perfect sense considering the state is broke, recently had its credit downgraded, and all pay for legislators has been suspended   (suntimes.com) divider line 82
    More: Asinine, capitols, Illinois, Illinois Attorney General, Michael Madigan, state capitols, balanced budgets, office software, office space  
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1400 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Sep 2013 at 1:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



82 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-09-08 10:45:37 AM
If you don't support Government spending then you love George W Bush

/Yes, that was intentional
 
2013-09-08 11:42:19 AM
Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.
 
2013-09-08 11:59:32 AM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


You're right, but this is more representative of the IL legislature's spending habits (enrich themselves and their politically-connected family/friends) than anything.  It's hard to point to a political hire, a graft-laden contract.  This is right in the capitol, hanging over their heads.  There are no adults in charge, nobody is responsible enough to question their spending.

They also spent $670,000 on three sets of copper-plated doors.
 
2013-09-08 12:00:39 PM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


Yes it does, nice job and good way to fund it.
 
2013-09-08 12:02:49 PM
It's a building that will last 100 years, all in all a better use for the money than they usually come up with.
 
2013-09-08 12:05:57 PM

olddeegee: It's a building that will last 100 years


The state will be insolvent long before that.  If anything these fixtures will be sold at auction for pennies on the dollar.
 
2013-09-08 01:08:59 PM
Couldn't they just shop at Ikea?
 
2013-09-08 01:12:38 PM
fta "[The Capital Development Board] assists in an estimating, contract, change-order review and project-management role, among many others," he said. "We work with our consultants and CDB during construction to make sure the design intent is followed. This is a very complex project requiring expert consultants and conscientious state employees - a project necessitated by deficient infrastructure, [the Americans With Disabilities Act], and life-safety systems in the building."

This small portion of a large, complex, and necessary project is an OUTRAGE!!!!!
 
2013-09-08 01:17:17 PM

olddeegee: It's a building that will last 100 years, all in all a better use for the money than they usually come up with.


I agree. "OMG IT COSTS TOO MUCH" is what leads to horrific disasters of civic buildings that inspire winces more than civic pride.

A state capitol building  should be grand.
 
2013-09-08 01:27:10 PM

olddeegee: It's a building that will last 100 years, all in all a better use for the money than they usually come up with.


You don't want your state capital furnished from Ikea
 
2013-09-08 01:29:03 PM
Maybe these things were commissioned a couple of years ago when things were a little rosier.  They finally arrived and there's no money to pay for them?  Not the provider of said riches' concern.
 
2013-09-08 01:29:46 PM

Rincewind53: olddeegee: It's a building that will last 100 years, all in all a better use for the money than they usually come up with.

I agree. "OMG IT COSTS TOO MUCH" is what leads to horrific disasters of civic buildings that inspire winces more than civic pride.

A state capitol building  should be grand.


They probably could have found something less expensive that is still dignified and impressive. The money saved could have gone to actual infrastructure repair rather than luxuries. It's not wasteful on the same scale of overfunded military or spy programs, but it's probably not the best of use taxpayer dollars when they should be tightening their belts some.
 
2013-09-08 01:31:21 PM
To be honest, if I had to choose between paying an Illinois representative and blowing the money on chandeliers, I'd probably go with the chandeliers instead.  At least chandeliers relatively harmless in comparison.

/Vote CHANDELIER in 2014!
 
2013-09-08 01:38:36 PM
The economic downturn is for the little people, darling.
 
2013-09-08 01:38:54 PM
Really? Capital expenditures, even as poorly timed or of the high end nature as above, are never the problem with solvency. Operations are always the problem. Capital expenditures make for more alarmist headlines though, which is the reason everyone uses them for soundbites rather than looking at the actual salaries and annual increases of appointee positions or the care packages for politicians no longer in office.
 
2013-09-08 01:39:46 PM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


Looks like of like a roulette wheel.
 
2013-09-08 01:42:35 PM

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: To be honest, if I had to choose between paying an Illinois representative and blowing the money on chandeliers, I'd probably go with the chandeliers instead.  At least chandeliers relatively harmless in comparison.

/Vote CHANDELIER in 2014!


I'm concerned about where my tax dollars are going, and I want change.  Chandelier has my vote in '14!



oi44.tinypic.com
 
2013-09-08 01:45:57 PM

JollyMagistrate: Really? Capital expenditures, even as poorly timed or of the high end nature as above, are never the problem with solvency. Operations are always the problem. Capital expenditures make for more alarmist headlines though, which is the reason everyone uses them for soundbites rather than looking at the actual salaries and annual increases of appointee positions or the care packages for politicians no longer in office.


Never might be too strong a word here, but otherwise I think this is a good point.
 
2013-09-08 01:55:43 PM
Tossing a cigarette butt out of your car in Illinois will soon become a third strike felony
(recenly submitted thread)

financal problem solved
 
2013-09-08 01:57:09 PM

Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.


why?
 
2013-09-08 02:05:40 PM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


You left out the part where the dome & structure isnt sound and is falling down, the Oklahoma legislature knew it was falling down and needed repaired but went ahead without the required structural realist anyway because they wanted to show how fiscal they are and now the repairs are in the $100,000,000 realm.
 
2013-09-08 02:09:58 PM

ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?


This is Boston City Hall:
upload.wikimedia.org
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
www.foodtoursboston.com
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.
 
2013-09-08 02:12:58 PM

Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.


fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.
 
2013-09-08 02:16:04 PM

Bloody William: fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.


Yeah, it's one more the hideous examples of the Brutalist architectural style (sadly not actually named after the brutal look, but from the French "brut", which means concrete). Can you believe that the architects actually intended the disaster of the plaza to be "like an Italian piazza"? And the worst part is that to build it, they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.

One of the worst civic projects in the history of the country.
 
2013-09-08 02:20:48 PM

Rincewind53: they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.


Actually just found a great picture of the Brattle St. area where City Hall is now, from the 1920s:

upload.wikimedia.org

Such a goddamn shame.
 
2013-09-08 02:26:09 PM
Personally, I think spending money on chandeliers and statues rather than Illinois legislators is a wonderful idea.
 
2013-09-08 02:26:40 PM

Rincewind53: Bloody William: fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.

Yeah, it's one more the hideous examples of the Brutalist architectural style (sadly not actually named after the brutal look, but from the French "brut", which means concrete). Can you believe that the architects actually intended the disaster of the plaza to be "like an Italian piazza"? And the worst part is that to build it, they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.

One of the worst civic projects in the history of the country.


Wow. I always thought of it as just the blocky plaza you had to shlep through to get to Quincy Market. That entire area before you go down the stairs and cross Congress Street is just "another ugly concrete block area before you can get to the nice places with the stores and the cobblestones."

I'm just taken aback that that's city hall, in a city that's known almost exclusively for its beautiful Colonial architecture across the freaking board.
 
2013-09-08 02:28:35 PM

ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?


Because much as we knock it, government is important, and because much as we knock it, symbolism is also important.
 
2013-09-08 02:30:44 PM
So... subby... how long have you been divorced?
 
2013-09-08 02:30:48 PM

Rincewind53: Bloody William: fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.

Yeah, it's one more the hideous examples of the Brutalist architectural style (sadly not actually named after the brutal look, but from the French "brut", which means concrete). Can you believe that the architects actually intended the disaster of the plaza to be "like an Italian piazza"? And the worst part is that to build it, they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.

One of the worst civic projects in the history of the country.


Well, the idea was to force a bunch of poor people out of the area. It was pretty good at doing that.
 
2013-09-08 02:33:30 PM

cptjeff: Well, the idea was to force a bunch of poor people out of the area. It was pretty good at doing that.


Yep. And there were quite a lot of people who thought Boston was becoming irrelevant in the United States, and had too many old buildings left over from the 19th century boom years, and just decided the best thing to do was knock them all down and build something  modern!
 
2013-09-08 02:47:50 PM
Chicago should be allowed to keep it's bankruptcy on pace with the rest of the country.

As America declines...lets stick together.
 
2013-09-08 02:50:52 PM

Rincewind53: cptjeff: Well, the idea was to force a bunch of poor people out of the area. It was pretty good at doing that.

Yep. And there were quite a lot of people who thought Boston was becoming irrelevant in the United States, and had too many old buildings left over from the 19th century boom years, and just decided the best thing to do was knock them all down and build something  modern!


That's the cultural equivalent of a Detroit radio station changing their format from Motown classics to Justin Bieber.
 
2013-09-08 02:57:14 PM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


I'd be willing to bet that if or when someone starts looking through the renovation spending they find considerably more waste. The chandeliers and statues are a symptom of the problem rather than the actual problem.

Yes the Senate house should have some class and if this were in a public area like the main foyer or senate chamber I don't think it would be an issue. But this was in more or less office space that will seldom seen by the public. I have been in plenty of Class A office space that doesn't have that level of flare.
 
2013-09-08 03:08:52 PM

Lt_Ryan: I have been in plenty of Class A office space that doesn't have that level of flare.


Well, 15 pieces of flair is just the minimum.  Now, you know it's up to you whether or not you want to just do the bare minimum. Or... well, like the Oklahoma state house, for example, has thirty seven pieces of flair, okay. And a terrific smile.
 
2013-09-08 03:09:51 PM

Lt_Ryan: Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.

I'd be willing to bet that if or when someone starts looking through the renovation spending they find considerably more waste. The chandeliers and statues are a symptom of the problem rather than the actual problem.

Yes the Senate house should have some class and if this were in a public area like the main foyer or senate chamber I don't think it would be an issue. But this was in more or less office space that will seldom seen by the public. I have been in plenty of Class A office space that doesn't have that level of flare.


old chinese saying: you can measure the decay of a society by the relative value of appearance over function
 
2013-09-08 03:14:23 PM
If it was the Pentagon doing this, many of you "oh, it's okay because [insert lame excuse here]" types would be calling for a lynch mob about now.
 
2013-09-08 03:39:42 PM

Bloody William: Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.

fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.


My sister likes to say that City Hall is the box that Faneuil Hall came in.

I have no idea why anyone thought building that monstrosity was a good idea, or that it would be an architectural marvel. Of course, that's what they said about the Eiffel Tower and other landmarks at the time of their construction.
 
2013-09-08 03:46:02 PM
archrecord.construction.com

A half million on a few fixtures that agree with the look and feel of a century old building? That's nothing, Dallas spent a hundred million on a bridge that connects a bypass to a poor neighborhood. It's the sort of bridge that should span a canyon or majestic river, not just hop up and over the levee for a river that's about 20 feet wide most of the century.

It only looks good up close.
 
2013-09-08 03:49:33 PM

Rincewind53: Bloody William: fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.

Yeah, it's one more the hideous examples of the Brutalist architectural style (sadly not actually named after the brutal look, but from the French "brut", which means concrete). Can you believe that the architects actually intended the disaster of the plaza to be "like an Italian piazza"? And the worst part is that to build it, they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.

One of the worst civic projects in the history of the country.


Point of fact - as you correctly point out, "Brutalist" comes from the French, but not quite to that etymology.  "Béton" is the word for concrete, while "béton brut" (literally "raw concrete") is the word for concrete that hasn't been finished in any way.

And, FWIW, it was a Swiss man - Le Corbusier - who coined it.  Personally, I'm not a fan of that kind of construction, because even if it's inspiring and welcoming when it's new (no mean feat), it does not age well at all without constant and expensive maintenance.  There's a reason that, here at least, you may pay a 10%-20% premium for an apartment in a pre-WWI cut-stone or stucco façade building over one in a poured-concrete modernist building that was erected in the '60s or '70s.
 
2013-09-08 03:51:48 PM
here, here's some chandeliers.  they don't cost nothin'.
 
2013-09-08 04:52:08 PM

Smirky the Wonder Chimp: To be honest, if I had to choose between paying an Illinois representative and blowing the money on chandeliers, I'd probably go with the chandeliers instead.  At least chandeliers relatively harmless in comparison.

/Vote CHANDELIER in 2014!


CHANDELIER'S A HACK AND A PEDOPHILE!!

/paid for by Sculpture. Vote SCULPTURE in 2014!
 
2013-09-08 05:03:52 PM
The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.
 
2013-09-08 05:33:15 PM

Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.


The article is pretty specific that this sum came from taxes. Can you back up the claim that the funds come from bonds?
 
2013-09-08 05:33:26 PM

clowncar on fire: Maybe these things were commissioned a couple of years ago when things were a little rosier.  They finally arrived and there's no money to pay for them?  Not the provider of said riches' concern.


And I'm sure you will accept the same explanation when you see unemployed people with nice possessions... after all, they were perfectly justified in spending money while still employed...

Weren't they?
 
2013-09-08 05:36:36 PM

TFerWannaBe: Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.

The article is pretty specific that this sum came from taxes. Can you back up the claim that the funds come from bonds?


Unlikely.  Anybody from this state who defends our government so vociferously is likely connected somehow to the state government or the parasites who infest it.
 
2013-09-08 05:43:15 PM

Fark It: TFerWannaBe: Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.

The article is pretty specific that this sum came from taxes. Can you back up the claim that the funds come from bonds?

Unlikely.  Anybody from this state who defends our government so vociferously is likely connected somehow to the state government or the parasites who infest it.


ITS A CONSPIRACY!
 
2013-09-08 05:50:40 PM

Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.


Have I ever blathered on in your vicinity about the importance of the artwork you choose to depict on your money?
 
2013-09-08 06:07:53 PM
Detroit is paying $200,000 grand to figure out what it's art is worth, and yet the emergency manager just said that nothing is going to be sold.

So the city spent $200,000 and all they got was, I imagine, a upswing in visits to the Detroit Institute of Arts.  Unless he's lying.  Basically the *best* case scenario is the city's out $200,000 and knows exactly  how much the art that isn't going to be sold is worth, which, I'm sure, won't be noticed by outstanding creditors.

/though I got in free last week 'cause I voted for a tax increase to help pay to keep it alive
//I brought three entrance fee paying friends, though
 
2013-09-08 06:08:42 PM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Detroit is paying $200,000 grand to figure out what it's art is worth, and yet the emergency manager just said that nothing is going to be sold.


ftfm
 
2013-09-08 06:09:14 PM

Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars.

It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda

And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget.


i1081.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-08 06:26:19 PM

bindlestiff2600: Tossing a cigarette butt out of your car in Illinois will soon become a third strike felony
(recenly submitted thread)

financal problem solved


Because pollution and tossing garbage out the window is awesome? Yeah, the roadside trash heaps on the 70s were great to look at.
 
2013-09-08 06:37:50 PM

Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.


My eyes are bleeding.
 
2013-09-08 06:43:30 PM

cman: If you don't support Government spending then you love George W Bush

/Yes, that was intentional


But that makes no sense. George Bush loved Government spending. Nearly as much as Ronald Reagan.
 
2013-09-08 06:57:53 PM

snowshovel: bindlestiff2600: Tossing a cigarette butt out of your car in Illinois will soon become a third strike felony
(recenly submitted thread)

financal problem solved

Because pollution and tossing garbage out the window is awesome? Yeah, the roadside trash heaps on the 70s were great to look at.


because sending people to jail (and as a 3rd strike too) is profitable
just not for you or me
 
2013-09-08 07:00:26 PM

Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.


That's almost as bad as the dilapidated monstrosity that is City Hall in New Orleans.

upload.wikimedia.org


That eyesore replaced this:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-09-08 07:00:32 PM
Illinois needs to move the capitol to Chicago. It is a disincentive to serve in state government if you have to move to a downstate shiathole. California has a similar problem.
 
2013-09-08 07:03:50 PM
Why do so many Farkers hate stimulus? STIMULUUUUUUUUUS!!!!
 
2013-09-08 07:15:15 PM
Ya see, this is the kind of thing that should make for a "heads rolling" in State Government.
A Bastille Day.

/Could be that every day for a couple of years before it was fixed.
 
2013-09-08 07:21:18 PM

Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.


Admittedly I was asleep or hungover during most of my economics classes but aren't government bonds basically a loan that is eventually paid back by tax dollars. Most people don't have issues with repairs to maintain a public building, but have an issue money is spent on luxuries (statues and lighting fixtures) in what is essentially private office space for the government.
 
2013-09-08 07:27:13 PM
Pffft.  The city of San Jose, CA spent $500,000 on a statue of Quetzalcoatl that looks more like something a dog left on the ground than an Aztec god.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-09-08 07:57:52 PM

lifeboat: Lt_Ryan: I have been in plenty of Class A office space that doesn't have that level of flare.

Well, 15 pieces of flair is just the minimum.  Now, you know it's up to you whether or not you want to just do the bare minimum. Or... well, like the Oklahoma state house, for example, has thirty seven pieces of flair, okay. And a terrific smile.


Wrong state, yo. Oklahoma has exactly ONE piece of flare for the entire capitol area combined.

When I was in State gubmint (not Oklahoma), every building project had a 1/2% dedicated total cost for art. So what happens? Every decent building in the state had some 60K-200K p.o.s. ugly monstrosity somewhere on-site that was created by the retarded brother-in-law of some senator, or whoever was calling the shots. Positive eye-sore, every one of them.
 
2013-09-08 07:58:25 PM
http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/sites/default/files/article/file-attac h ments/Historical%20Decisions%20Document.pdf

http://www.chicagodefender.com/index.php/news/city/23922-illinois-ca pi tol-building-renovations-state-669-608-six-doors
In fairness, funding for the doors and the rest of the project comes from bonds issued by the state to pay for public works projects and capital expenditures, including historic landmarks like the Capitol building. In other words, those funds couldn't be used to pay for pensions and other institutions.
 
2013-09-08 08:23:20 PM

Any Pie Left: http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/sites/default/files/article/file-attac h ments/Historical%20Decisions%20Document.pdf

http://www.chicagodefender.com/index.php/news/city/23922-illinois-ca pi tol-building-renovations-state-669-608-six-doors
In fairness, funding for the doors and the rest of the project comes from bonds issued by the state to pay for public works projects and capital expenditures, including historic landmarks like the Capitol building. In other words, those funds couldn't be used to pay for pensions and other institutions.


And that bond rating of our great state? How is that doing these days? Not so well. Both the state and the city have been downgraded. The state has been downgraded twice. This state, and my home of Chicago are in dire straits financially. Chicago's tab this year for police brutality settlements is 66 million alone. Jon Burge, by himself has cost the city 80+ Million.

TIF districts across this state have created slush funds that are rapidly defunding our schools via circumvention of property tax money. Then of course, there is the pension issue. The state of Illinois has been writing IOU's toward the pension system for something like 25 years...and lo and behold...the piper cometh. Should the state default on pensions, as I understand it...property tax rates automatically rise to cover the default.

So tell me, in this financial climate, how exactly is it relevant where the $600,000 for DOORS comes from? How? Because I am looking at these things, as a taxpayer in this state and I see it as wasteful. Chandeliers? Seriously? Patch it up till we're out of the woods. I honestly don't care if it looks good. Know what I care about? I care about whether or not our state is about to hit Michigan levels of financial derp. I care about the fact that the state house has decided to "further study" the issue of pension reform, rather than vote on the existing bills put forth.

My arms have plenty of space for all the farks I give about whether or not the state house accoutrements are historically accurate.
 
2013-09-08 08:43:25 PM

Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.


Wow, that looks like an ugly (or uglier than normal?) parking garage.
 
2013-09-08 08:51:57 PM
DuoX "And that bond rating of our great state? How is that doing these days? Not so well. Both the state and the city have been downgraded. The state has been downgraded twice. This state, and my home of Chicago are in dire straits financially"

 Maybe you haven't  been keeping up with the papers, but the Bond rating agencies are a complete scam. They were rating Enron and the Mortgage Bubble a-holes the day before both blue up. Moody's is really a class act: they charge a state to use them for rating the bonds, and if you don't pay, they rate the bonds less valuable. That's straight-up old fashioned "street tax" right there.  Or read up on the Civic Committee conservative republicans who called up Moody's and brow-beat them into downgrading Illinois bonds, based on no financial data at all,  just to create chaos to favor their election campaigns.

I was pointing out that the money for these infrastructure improvements and preservation efforts were paid for by specific bond issues, not from annual taxation.  And if you don't want Chicago and Illinois to look like Detroit, why are you suggesting we copy what they did in Detroit by cutting off maintenance and preservation of what they had, leaving nothing but ruins?  This is based on false logic that letting the treasures you have, decay into worthlessness is somehow a "savings" you can apply elsewhere.

 Look, things are farked up, no question. But the 15 billion-dollar deficit problem is much bigger than this relatively tiny expense, and deleting these fleabite amounts of funding from worthwhile civic projects doesn't solve the larger problems. It's not even good "optics" to do so, because what it represents is an abandonment of stewardship for the People's property and resources. What kind of "conservative" refuses to conserve the state's most important public building?

 This manufactured controversy is, as a I said, a way to gin up and focus populist resentment in under-educated, ignorant people, (teahadists)  which then is meant to be converted into support for the faction that's out of power to try and get it back.  It's at best disingenuous, and at worst, well- manipulative skullduggery typical of desperate republican conservatives looking to get tea party voters to make useless donations to campaigns that can't possibly win.
 
2013-09-08 09:05:06 PM
I farking love my state.
 
2013-09-08 09:09:17 PM

Riche: Yeah, it looks really bad blowing what is (to everyday people) a lot of money on decorative stuff when financial times are crappy-- but the total cost of things listed in TFA amounts to less than 1% of an otherwise BADLY needed renovation.

And besides, the building is the seat of the state government-- nothing wrong with having some class.  Especially if the money to make the light fixtures and statues went to in-state businesses.

Of course, the smartest approach would have been to have a series of fundraisers to pay for the pretty stuff. That's how the Oklahoma capitol building dome was funded about ten years ago.

It looks very nice.


Well, I'll ask, but I don't think they'll be very keen. They've already got one, you see?
 
2013-09-08 09:15:13 PM

Any Pie Left: DuoX "And that bond rating of our great state? How is that doing these days? Not so well. Both the state and the city have been downgraded. The state has been downgraded twice. This state, and my home of Chicago are in dire straits financially"

 Maybe you haven't  been keeping up with the papers, but the Bond rating agencies are a complete scam. They were rating Enron and the Mortgage Bubble a-holes the day before both blue up. Moody's is really a class act: they charge a state to use them for rating the bonds, and if you don't pay, they rate the bonds less valuable. That's straight-up old fashioned "street tax" right there.  Or read up on the Civic Committee conservative republicans who called up Moody's and brow-beat them into downgrading Illinois bonds, based on no financial data at all,  just to create chaos to favor their election campaigns.

I was pointing out that the money for these infrastructure improvements and preservation efforts were paid for by specific bond issues, not from annual taxation.  And if you don't want Chicago and Illinois to look like Detroit, why are you suggesting we copy what they did in Detroit by cutting off maintenance and preservation of what they had, leaving nothing but ruins?  This is based on false logic that letting the treasures you have, decay into worthlessness is somehow a "savings" you can apply elsewhere.

 Look, things are farked up, no question. But the 15 billion-dollar deficit problem is much bigger than this relatively tiny expense, and deleting these fleabite amounts of funding from worthwhile civic projects doesn't solve the larger problems. It's not even good "optics" to do so, because what it represents is an abandonment of stewardship for the People's property and resources. What kind of "conservative" refuses to conserve the state's most important public building?

 This manufactured controversy is, as a I said, a way to gin up and focus populist resentment in under-educated, ignorant people, (teahadists)  wh ...


We all know bond rating agencies are scams (I mean, guess who's paying them? the banks), but the said truth is Illinois is 100 billion in the whole and those bond ratings still do have an impact.  What we need is to completely reform our pension system to mirror that of modern day 401k's, but even that won't be enough.
 
2013-09-08 09:19:36 PM

Mrtraveler01: Rincewind53: ipsofacto: Rincewind53: A state capitol building should be grand.

why?

This is Boston City Hall:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x637]
It is a disaster of a building; ugly, imposing, oppressive, and unfriendly. People who approach such a building will naturally conclude that the residents of the building share its unfriendliness.

On the other hand, this is the Massachusetts State House
[www.foodtoursboston.com image 850x546]
It is grand, elegant, and speaks to a long and rich history of civic involvement. Such a building inspires the kind of awe that builders of cathedrals once used; this is a place for serious business, a place of reverence for the law, tradition, and warmth.

I think you can learn a lot about a culture from the way it builds its government buildings.

That's almost as bad as the dilapidated monstrosity that is City Hall in New Orleans.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x566]


That eyesore replaced this:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x459]


Well, unlike that monstrosity that is Boston's City Hall, at least it blends in.
 
2013-09-08 09:31:03 PM
Now you did it, poops. The pension problem is not an easy one, or it would already be solved. The "solutions" being floated right now are highly likely to be found unconstitutional by the state supreme court, because  contractual benefits to state workers were hard-wired into the constitution the last time it was updated, they "cannot be reduced or diminished".  And frankly, that's fair, because there's nobody with a time machine able to give you back your 20-plus years of work you put in, on the promise of the state that you would get "x" amount, because suddenly the state realizes that they "forgot" to put away their share of the annual pension money in favor of buying votes with pork projects.

They've already changed the pension for new hires to be more in line with what you describe, but the savings from that won't come for about 15 or more years.

 The people already retired, or working *today* have an iron-clad contract.  The way forward is to reduce the "ramp"; the  rate at which the state's contributions are increased to replace the missing money, plus interest.

There is no reason to fully fund the pension at 100 percent, either, when corporations get away with something between 60 and 76 percent funded. There is no scenario under which 100 percent of the state employed work force all retires ont he same day and expects a check.  Problem is it takes a Constitutional Convention to change the ramp, and to modify the tax code.
 
2013-09-08 10:01:30 PM

lifeboat: Smirky the Wonder Chimp: To be honest, if I had to choose between paying an Illinois representative and blowing the money on chandeliers, I'd probably go with the chandeliers instead.  At least chandeliers relatively harmless in comparison.

/Vote CHANDELIER in 2014!

I'm concerned about where my tax dollars are going, and I want change.  Chandelier has my vote in '14!

[oi44.tinypic.com image 400x391]


You are now displaying in a pleasant green font.  Welcome to my favorites list.

Empty Matchbook: Smirky the Wonder Chimp: To be honest, if I had to choose between paying an Illinois representative and blowing the money on chandeliers, I'd probably go with the chandeliers instead.  At least chandeliers relatively harmless in comparison.

/Vote CHANDELIER in 2014!

CHANDELIER'S A HACK AND A PEDOPHILE!!

/paid for by Sculpture. Vote SCULPTURE in 2014!


Aaaand, so are you.  There will be much, much beer.

/A VOTE FOR SCULPTURE IS A VOTE FOR GOBLINS
//VOTE "NO" TO GOBLINS IN 2014
 
2013-09-08 10:38:30 PM
I've met a few state reps, especially in Southern Illinois, that couldn't hold up their end of a debate with a Chandelier OR sculpture. They got nominated and elected based on pushing the green button when told, and not much else.
 
2013-09-08 10:47:36 PM
Northern Illinois is democratic, southern Illinois is hicksville.

Any bets that the latter was involved?
 
2013-09-08 10:55:52 PM
No, Super-Grass, it's not like that in the case of the bond issue, because this was part of a state-wide package of projects  called "the capital Construction Bill," with stuff like roads, bridges, airport improvements, water and sewer, as well as cultural and educational building and maintenance, going on in every district, so it got plenty of votes for passage from every part of the state.  There was a backlog of stuff that needed fixing for a long time but none of it got passed under Blago, because the House and Senate were sure Blago would have diverted and wasted as much of that money to his crooked pals as possible, the result being he'd have too much money to beat in another election. So capital projects langushed until Blago got replaced.
 
2013-09-09 12:32:20 AM
Well, all we have to do is return these chandeliers and statues and then we'll have a balanced budget.

You are a goddamn idiot, subby.
 
2013-09-09 05:53:47 AM

Any Pie Left: I've met a few state reps, especially in Southern Illinois, that couldn't hold up their end of a debate with a Chandelier OR sculpture. They got nominated and elected based on pushing the green button when told, and not much else.


Nobody south of I-70 counts in Illinois.
 
2013-09-09 06:27:50 AM

Robo Beat: Rincewind53: Bloody William: fark me, that's city hall? I've walked under it dozens of times when I've been to Boston. I always just thought it was an incredibly ugly office building thunked on a big plaza right over Fanneuil Hall. Huh, so that's why that T stop is Government Center.

Yeah, it's one more the hideous examples of the Brutalist architectural style (sadly not actually named after the brutal look, but from the French "brut", which means concrete). Can you believe that the architects actually intended the disaster of the plaza to be "like an Italian piazza"? And the worst part is that to build it, they tore down a bunch of colonial and 19th century buildings in the historic part of Boston.

One of the worst civic projects in the history of the country.

Point of fact - as you correctly point out, "Brutalist" comes from the French, but not quite to that etymology.  "Béton" is the word for concrete, while "béton brut" (literally "raw concrete") is the word for concrete that hasn't been finished in any way.

And, FWIW, it was a Swiss man - Le Corbusier - who coined it.  Personally, I'm not a fan of that kind of construction, because even if it's inspiring and welcoming when it's new (no mean feat), it does not age well at all without constant and expensive maintenance.  There's a reason that, here at least, you may pay a 10%-20% premium for an apartment in a pre-WWI cut-stone or stucco façade building over one in a poured-concrete modernist building that was erected in the '60s or '70s.


Phew, I was worrying that the Champagne I had been drinking in the past had concrete in it, rather than being dry/low added sugar.
 
2013-09-09 06:42:44 AM

snowshovel: bindlestiff2600: Tossing a cigarette butt out of your car in Illinois will soon become a third strike felony
(recenly submitted thread)

financal problem solved

Because pollution and tossing garbage out the window is awesome? Yeah, the roadside trash heaps on the 70s were great to look at.


I'm all for reducing roadside litter and the occasional brush fire but the sentence is absurd.

If there were only some way to punish the litterer through community service projects aimed at city beautification... Like perhaps something requiring said litterer to pick up discarded cigarette butts alongside the road.
 
2013-09-09 08:27:50 AM

Bontesla: snowshovel: bindlestiff2600: Tossing a cigarette butt out of your car in Illinois will soon become a third strike felony
(recenly submitted thread)

financal problem solved

Because pollution and tossing garbage out the window is awesome? Yeah, the roadside trash heaps on the 70s were great to look at.

I'm all for reducing roadside litter and the occasional brush fire but the sentence is absurd.

If there were only some way to punish the litterer through community service projects aimed at city beautification... Like perhaps something requiring said litterer to pick up discarded cigarette butts alongside the road.


sir - i agree with you
 your motivations appear to fix and correct the issue
what country are you from may i ask - i might want to move there
 
2013-09-09 01:04:54 PM

TFerWannaBe: Any Pie Left: The Illinois project was actually  funded by bonds, NOT tax dollars. But you won't find that fact in any of the articles published that are tut-tutting it as profligate outrage against poor "mericunz".  It's just one of those late summer silly-season stories, something cooked up by people with an anti-government agenda, to get a little populist bump of outrage they cant turn around and use to fund a political campaign.  We shouldn't keep up a nearly 200-year-old  capitol building because Leroy down the street can't afford a new screen door? Bullshiat. And again, this was not paid for from tax dollars but BONDS. Separate from the budget. Exactly because of asshats that would deny funding repairs and improvements to The People's House.

The article is pretty specific that this sum came from taxes. Can you back up the claim that the funds come from bonds?


Different poster, but I can.

Here's the original story that started the whole conversation last month.

From page 2:

"In the state's defense, funding for the doorways and the rest of the renovation project comes from bonds issued by the state to pay for public works projects. In other words, it does not mean the state is stiffing schools, pharmacists, caregivers or other institutions it owes in order to spend $50 million on this project . So it isn't as bad as it seems. "
 
2013-09-09 04:30:59 PM

netcentric: Chicago should be allowed to keep it's bankruptcy on pace with the rest of the country.

As America declines...lets stick together.


I'm so sick of hearing this bullshiat. How about we turn back the tax rates to oh say 2000 and remove the Social Security tax cap? Guess what would happen then? That deficit that all you RepuliTeatards are worried about would magically close to something reasonable.

The only reason this country "is in decline" is because you stupid bastards decided that you did not, would not pay for shiat anymore. Your taxes are not too high they are too low and need to rise by about 50% across the board.
 
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