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(STLToday)   Disabled woman sues for accommodations to law school entrance test, including twice the amount of time, a computer, white noise machine, and food and drink. Plans to request similar accommodations from judges and juries   (stltoday.com) divider line 338
    More: Asinine, law schools, St. Louis, white noise machine, University of Missouri-St, jury, admission test, computers  
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12556 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Sep 2013 at 2:47 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-06 09:25:27 AM
She just wants to be a politician because who would hire a lawyer with learning and attention difficulties?
 
2013-09-06 09:30:14 AM

BizarreMan: She just wants to be a politician because who would hire a lawyer with learning and attention difficulties?


Sounds like she'd be perfect for the bench.
 
2013-09-06 09:37:20 AM
...is this satire?
 
2013-09-06 10:02:38 AM
If she does get into law school, I'm going to be really pissed 4 years from now if her disabilities make her unable to correctly complete my order at Starbucks.
 
2013-09-06 10:45:28 AM
The woman could met the time limit if the law School Admission Council just gave her the answers and all she had to do was fill in the bubbles. The question of a "school of higher education" requiring students to have basic time management skills to reduce resources being wasted on students that lack the ability to use the skills offered is the question that should be asked an answered by the court.. Granted the woman is already 61 and if law school takes twice as long for her because of age related aliments she would be 67 at graduation. A number of post grad programs have age limits, but this is law school so productive use of the education after graduation is a nonissue. The are a few law schools in the US that do not require the LSAT or even a bachelors in anything, just the ability to pay and the woman sounds better suited to attend such a "school"
 
2013-09-06 10:52:42 AM

Nabb1: BizarreMan: She just wants to be a politician because who would hire a lawyer with learning and attention difficulties?

Sounds like she'd be perfect for the bench.


Well at least she doesn't sound like she'd be an activist judge.

/I should know, as an accomplished inactivist
 
2013-09-06 11:12:27 AM
I'm all for accommodating those with needs and inclusion of those people into just about all aspects of society.

Having a wheelchair lane at the Olympic 100 meter dash just isn't gonna happen though.
 
2013-09-06 01:05:56 PM
bite-prod.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-09-06 01:13:21 PM
I'm basically on her side here. Artificial restrictions on taking these tests, and basically the tests themselves, are pretty much bullshiat.
 
2013-09-06 01:17:28 PM

DamnYankees: I'm basically on her side here. Artificial restrictions on taking these tests, and basically the tests themselves, are pretty much bullshiat.


Ok, fine.

You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?
 
2013-09-06 01:19:22 PM
This does not bode well for her career (short as it may be).

"Say, aren't you that woman who has trouble paying attention to details?.  I appreciate this, but I think I'll find another lawyer"
 
2013-09-06 01:22:22 PM

eurotrader: The woman could met the time limit if the law School Admission Council just gave her the answers and all she had to do was fill in the bubbles. The question of a "school of higher education" requiring students to have basic time management skills to reduce resources being wasted on students that lack the ability to use the skills offered is the question that should be asked an answered by the court.. Granted the woman is already 61 and if law school takes twice as long for her because of age related aliments she would be 67 at graduation. A number of post grad programs have age limits, but this is law school so productive use of the education after graduation is a nonissue. The are a few law schools in the US that do not require the LSAT or even a bachelors in anything, just the ability to pay and the woman sounds better suited to attend such a "school"


Yeah, she's 61.  I think she has bigger mental issues than slow reading and ADHD...
 
2013-09-06 01:22:29 PM

cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?


I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.
 
2013-09-06 01:22:59 PM
I need to take the LSAT entirely in the form of a coloring book.
 
2013-09-06 01:23:47 PM
Yeah, well, the legal system kind of did this to themselves.......
 
2013-09-06 01:25:11 PM

DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.


I don't know why they do what they do with the testing. I am pretty sure however that Colleges prefer people who do have discipline. Maybe that is a part of it, I don't know.
 
2013-09-06 01:25:13 PM

DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.


Restrictions on computers are especially moronic. It's not like you're going to submit handwritten motions and briefs
 
2013-09-06 01:27:03 PM

cman: I don't know why they do what they do with the testing. I am pretty sure however that Colleges prefer people who do have discipline. Maybe that is a part of it, I don't know.

Ok, but what does this have to do with a hard cutoff time limit for tests?
 
2013-09-06 01:27:51 PM

DamnYankees: cman: I don't know why they do what they do with the testing. I am pretty sure however that Colleges prefer people who do have discipline. Maybe that is a part of it, I don't know.
Ok, but what does this have to do with a hard cutoff time limit for tests?


As I said, I have no idea why they do it. It was pure speculation on my part
 
2013-09-06 01:28:14 PM

cman: As I said, I have no idea why they do it. It was pure speculation on my part


Fair enough.
 
2013-09-06 01:34:18 PM
It also asks the court to make the council to stop telling law schools which students are granted extra time or other accommodations for the test.

Well, I think she already kinda blew that one...
 
2013-09-06 02:02:59 PM
I knew giving out Participation Ribbons would eventually blow up in our faces.
 
2013-09-06 02:15:47 PM

DamnYankees: cman: I don't know why they do what they do with the testing. I am pretty sure however that Colleges prefer people who do have discipline. Maybe that is a part of it, I don't know.
Ok, but what does this have to do with a hard cutoff time limit for tests?


How long must they pay employees to babysit someone without the faculties to finish a course within a semester?
 
2013-09-06 02:19:39 PM

Theaetetus: DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.

Restrictions on computers are especially moronic. It's not like you're going to submit handwritten motions and briefs


As you're one of Fark's law-talkers, I have a question for you.  How "fill in the blank" have basic motions gotten these days?  Are there software programs that, once set up, literally do everything for you but fill in the names of plaintiff/defendant, date, etc?  I would assume that a huge amount of the filing work is automated at this point, but maybe I'm completely wrong.
 
2013-09-06 02:36:47 PM

dahmers love zombie: Theaetetus: DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.

Restrictions on computers are especially moronic. It's not like you're going to submit handwritten motions and briefs

As you're one of Fark's law-talkers, I have a question for you.  How "fill in the blank" have basic motions gotten these days?  Are there software programs that, once set up, literally do everything for you but fill in the names of plaintiff/defendant, date, etc?  I would assume that a huge amount of the filing work is automated at this point, but maybe I'm completely wrong.


IANAL, but I installed OpenDocs (aka PCDocs) and Documentum for a living 15 years ago.  It's a little more than fill-in-the-blank, and they work best for things like contracts, not court filings.  But the software makes things go incredibly fast, especially for firms with a decent backlog of past work.

Someone in the firm identifies the best paragraphs and sections, culled from past work, for the various aspects and variations of the document, and the put them in a library with appropriate tagging and indexing.  The lawyer (or the paralegal) responsible for a document then just picks the appropriate elements, supplies names, addresses, and dates, and voila.  A complicated sale of a business that includes 3 subsidiaries, one of which is overseas, plus real estate and some intellectual property and outstanding debt, gets reduced to 95% plug-and play, and 5% actual legal brain work.

Just like with configuration management tools, the software keeps track of versions, revisions, etc.  The biggest challenge is training the attorneys and staff to use the system correctly, and keeping the library of approved content up to date as the law changes.  If the firm is big enough to have a good legal librarian, and that person has sufficient authority to keep people in line, it's a real advantage.  They can bill fee-for-service, instead of billable hours.
 
2013-09-06 02:44:28 PM

dahmers love zombie: Theaetetus: DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.

Restrictions on computers are especially moronic. It's not like you're going to submit handwritten motions and briefs

As you're one of Fark's law-talkers, I have a question for you.  How "fill in the blank" have basic motions gotten these days?  Are there software programs that, once set up, literally do everything for you but fill in the names of plaintiff/defendant, date, etc?  I would assume that a huge amount of the filing work is automated at this point, but maybe I'm completely wrong.


If West law can not do the majority of the form for a filing an attorney is doing something unusual. It is a fee service that not all  lawyers can or do pay, it is billed by hour or month depends on package purchased.
 
2013-09-06 02:50:10 PM

cman: ...is this satire?


You may recall a few years back that a blind guy sued to get his commercial pilot's license.
This would go in the smae folder.
 
2013-09-06 02:50:18 PM
Sounds more than a physical handicap, she should get a job as a pilot, my ex-wife got a job as a pilot.
 
2013-09-06 02:52:05 PM
You guys to realize that most legal work doesn't occur inside a courtroom.  Her disability might prevent her from being a trial lawyer, but why should that exclude her from practicing law completely?
 
2013-09-06 02:53:45 PM

Gorra: You guys to realize that most legal work doesn't occur inside a courtroom.  Her disability might prevent her from being a trial lawyer, but why should that exclude her from practicing law completely?


'Cause they charge by the hour, and I don't want my lawyer to use my funds on snack breaks and slow reading comprehension.
 
2013-09-06 02:53:48 PM

cman: DamnYankees: I'm basically on her side here. Artificial restrictions on taking these tests, and basically the tests themselves, are pretty much bullshiat.

Ok, fine.

You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?


The Wheel of Pain
 
2013-09-06 02:54:40 PM

cman: DamnYankees: I'm basically on her side here. Artificial restrictions on taking these tests, and basically the tests themselves, are pretty much bullshiat.

Ok, fine.

You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?


Filtering is racist.

I'm just waiting for the day when every college has to take whoever applies; regardless of their capabilities. Tuition would be so rediculous; no one would be able to afford to go.
 
2013-09-06 02:55:00 PM
If a valid disability includes "I would suck at this" then I guess all testing will simply be banned within ten years.
 
2013-09-06 02:56:11 PM
ADA basically says that accommodations must be reasonable....not all of these reasons are IMHO.
 
2013-09-06 02:56:15 PM
The lawsuit says Hoyt has difficulty writing, is easily distracted, needs frequent breaks, and "reads about two and a half times slower than her peers."

Make a hell of a lawyer, this one.
 
2013-09-06 02:57:53 PM
What's the over/under of judges that she will meet that will frown on her shenanigans?
 
2013-09-06 02:57:54 PM
If she passes the bar and becomes a lawyer you can pay her in potato.
 
kth
2013-09-06 02:58:22 PM

FrancoFile: dahmers love zombie: Theaetetus: DamnYankees: cman: You have 100 slots open and 1000 students applying. How would you filter them?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the existence of ANY test, I just happened to think the LSAT is stupid, as is the bar exam, and that restrictions on time, eating, computers, etc. are all moronic.

Restrictions on computers are especially moronic. It's not like you're going to submit handwritten motions and briefs

As you're one of Fark's law-talkers, I have a question for you.  How "fill in the blank" have basic motions gotten these days?  Are there software programs that, once set up, literally do everything for you but fill in the names of plaintiff/defendant, date, etc?  I would assume that a huge amount of the filing work is automated at this point, but maybe I'm completely wrong.

IANAL, but I installed OpenDocs (aka PCDocs) and Documentum for a living 15 years ago.  It's a little more than fill-in-the-blank, and they work best for things like contracts, not court filings.  But the software makes things go incredibly fast, especially for firms with a decent backlog of past work.

Someone in the firm identifies the best paragraphs and sections, culled from past work, for the various aspects and variations of the document, and the put them in a library with appropriate tagging and indexing.  The lawyer (or the paralegal) responsible for a document then just picks the appropriate elements, supplies names, addresses, and dates, and voila.  A complicated sale of a business that includes 3 subsidiaries, one of which is overseas, plus real estate and some intellectual property and outstanding debt, gets reduced to 95% plug-and play, and 5% actual legal brain work.

Just like with configuration management tools, the software keeps track of versions, revisions, etc.  The biggest challenge is training the attorneys and staff to use the system correctly, and keeping the library of approved content up to date as the law changes.  If the firm is ...


I had my own shop and it was easy enough to configure this even without the fancy pants stuff. I had a firm management database that I set up that populated much of my work for me from the client file.  I primarily did estate planning and probate, so it was fairly simple 75% of the time.

I had a set of forms, as well as access to some materials for more complex plans. I was the forms guru at a larger firm, so I was allowed to take a full set when I left to open my own shop.
 
2013-09-06 02:58:37 PM

vudukungfu: The lawsuit says Hoyt has difficulty writing, is easily distracted, needs frequent breaks, and "reads about two and a half times slower than her peers."

Make a hell of a lawyer, this one.


I imagine that there are lawfirms that would hire her. The reason? Two words: billable hours.
 
2013-09-06 02:59:12 PM

vudukungfu: The lawsuit says Hoyt has difficulty writing, is easily distracted, needs frequent breaks, and "reads about two and a half times slower than her peers."

Make a hell of a lawyer, this one.


reads two and a half times slower?  so that means she will have 60 billable hours per day?
 
2013-09-06 02:59:20 PM
Seems like she'll make a good lawyer.
 
2013-09-06 03:00:13 PM
Is she going to sue every court that doesn't grant her extra time for filings and hearings? Does she get to bill twice as many hours for the same amount of work? Who's going to hire a cognitively disabled lawyer?
 
2013-09-06 03:00:28 PM

iheartscotch: vudukungfu: The lawsuit says Hoyt has difficulty writing, is easily distracted, needs frequent breaks, and "reads about two and a half times slower than her peers."

Make a hell of a lawyer, this one.

I imagine that there are lawfirms that would hire her. The reason? Two words: billable hours.


This. any lawyer that doesnt read 2.5x slower than a normal person with frequent breaks isn't going to last long
 
2013-09-06 03:00:29 PM

vudukungfu: The lawsuit says Hoyt has difficulty writing, is easily distracted, needs frequent breaks, and "reads about two and a half times slower than her peers."

Make a hell of a lawyer, this one.


Or civil servant somewhere, I think she is currently working at our DMV.
 
2013-09-06 03:00:38 PM
61 - seriously?  It's not ADHD, it's called Alzheimer's
 
2013-09-06 03:00:57 PM
1 Catch ADHD
2 Sue for accommodations
3 Ooh look a puppy
4 Profit
 
2013-09-06 03:01:38 PM

Gorra: You guys to realize that most legal work doesn't occur inside a courtroom.  Her disability might prevent her from being a trial lawyer, but why should that exclude her from practicing law completely?


When I hire a lawyer I do so with the assumption that they have met the prerequisites to become so and have a certain level of competence. In her case, this assumption is flawed. Having read this article, I am less likely to ever choose a disabled lawyer.
 
2013-09-06 03:03:15 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Is she going to sue every court that doesn't grant her extra time for filings and hearings? Does she get to bill twice as many hours for the same amount of work? Who's going to hire a cognitively disabled lawyer?


My guess is she has lots of lawsuits planned.
 
2013-09-06 03:03:25 PM
Objection, Your Honor!

On what grounds?

SQUIRREL!
 
2013-09-06 03:03:28 PM
The woman is 61, she'll be retirement age by the time she completes law school, seriously, what's she trying to prove here?
 
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