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(Wired)   And so the dickwolves controversy continues   (wired.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Penny Arcade Expo, Penny Arcade, independent games, PAX  
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5244 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Sep 2013 at 5:23 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-05 04:52:28 PM  
i1.ytimg.com

Unavailable for comment
 
2013-09-05 05:05:56 PM  
They'll get over it.
 
2013-09-05 05:15:53 PM  
I really don't get why rape jokes garner so much more butthurt than jokes about say, murder.
Ok sure, this article seems eerily focused on that comic strip's affect on "rape survivors", whereas murder survivors are nonexistent.  But, what about the family and friends of murder victims?  Would they be justified to get upset about a comic strip on the Internet, but they just haven't decided to?
 
2013-09-05 05:24:51 PM  
Didn't PAX sell out in something like 5 hours? Yea, threatening not to go isn't going to stop Mike being a jerk or the conference being ridiculously successful.
 
2013-09-05 05:26:01 PM  
Wow, that's a whole lotta butthurt.
 
2013-09-05 05:27:33 PM  

Carth: Didn't PAX sell out in something like 5 hours? Yea, threatening not to go isn't going to stop Mike being a jerk or the conference being ridiculously successful.


No one gives a shiat about the comic itself at PAX, we are just there to play the games and geek out.  The comic is by far the least interesting thing about PAX.
 
2013-09-05 05:33:31 PM  
I kind of have to hand it to the guys for pointing out that people getting pissy about a comic strip is astoundingly stupid, and sticking to it.

If you want to stop rape then you join an organization with that goal. Not fly into a rage at a (poorly written) video game comic. It just reeks of armchair warriors who want to feel superior without actually getting up and doing anything.
 
2013-09-05 05:35:24 PM  

Antimatter: Carth: Didn't PAX sell out in something like 5 hours? Yea, threatening not to go isn't going to stop Mike being a jerk or the conference being ridiculously successful.

No one gives a shiat about the comic itself at PAX, we are just there to play the games and geek out.  The comic is by far the least interesting thing about PAX.


That the comic is the least interesting thing those two do has become quite apparent. I don't know the last time I enjoyed a PA comic. I also can't stand the red ears and noses and the shapes that those noses take. It's become pretty ridiculous. I don't want to be "stop liking what I don't like" guy because I used to love PA, but the quality of that strip has plummeted. And Mike's art has become so bad it's nearly impossible for me to read it.
 
2013-09-05 05:36:44 PM  
So which penis do the dickwolves pee out of?
 
2013-09-05 05:37:18 PM  
Lady, that's the whole point.  He wasn't making light of rape, he was pointing out some of the logical absurdities in modern gaming, especially MMO's.  The point is that you walk by NPC's constantly are being literally raped/murdered/tortured and you're supposed to just ignore it because you've already done that quest / you've out leveled the xp from it.

They're making fun of games that have you ignore horrible crimes, NOT making fun of rape victims.

And I think they should have ran w/ slaves being raped by hordes of the producer of Law and Order, rather then a wolf.
 
2013-09-05 05:38:30 PM  

Ivandrago: That the comic is the least interesting thing those two do has become quite apparent. I don't know the last time I enjoyed a PA comic. I also can't stand the red ears and noses and the shapes that those noses take. It's become pretty ridiculous. I don't want to be "stop liking what I don't like" guy because I used to love PA, but the quality of that strip has plummeted. And Mike's art has become so bad it's nearly impossible for me to read it.


Hah hah, gaming comic hipsters.
 
2013-09-05 05:41:03 PM  
I think my biggest issue with this is that the comic wasn't even making light of rape.  They were using it as an example of something godawful, that the player is ignoring because his "quest complete" tracker dinged.  They could've said "murdered to death by axewolves" or "burned to death by flamewolves", and that's not pro-murder or pro-arson.

The whole thing feels like an attack on a man for daring to use the R-word, rather than anything to do with  how it was used.
 
2013-09-05 05:41:36 PM  
I could see people who were raped by dickwolves being upset, i mean, one should not mock their suffering, but other than that, no.  Should descriptions of ultimate suffering and damnation be nicer?  Hell probably is full of rapey dickwolves after all, what should we do, dial back on that description of horribleness? 

Ok, so from now on eternal suffering or supernatural torture is limited to not getting ice cream with pie. 

Seriously, man up.
 
2013-09-05 05:43:17 PM  
In about as much context as the comic:
blog.mdna.com
 
2013-09-05 05:43:38 PM  
Rape jokes are obviously one of the worst forms of humor. Or at least, they're the one form that most often goes badly. However, puns are the lowest form of humor.

So would rape puns be the ultimate evil in comedy?
 
2013-09-05 05:45:09 PM  
Article says that it isn't relevant whether or not the original comic is offensive, but that people were offended and the reaction to them being offended is the problem.

If the original comic, which wasn't a rape joke but an MMO joke about the rationale behind quest structure, isn't offensive but was taken out of context and they were attacked for it, then why shouldn't that be relevant?  The reaction to the initial comic was what caused their knee jerk retaliation.

The whole thing is farking stupid.
 
2013-09-05 05:45:16 PM  

Thorak: I think my biggest issue with this is that the comic wasn't even making light of rape.  They were using it as an example of something godawful, that the player is ignoring because his "quest complete" tracker dinged.  They could've said "murdered to death by axewolves" or "burned to death by flamewolves", and that's not pro-murder or pro-arson.

The whole thing feels like an attack on a man for daring to use the R-word, rather than anything to do with  how it was used.


It's not the original strip that's the problem.  It's the double-down "don't tell me what to say, you bullies" followups.
 
2013-09-05 05:46:41 PM  

parazen: Rape jokes are obviously one of the worst forms of humor. Or at least, they're the one form that most often goes badly. However, puns are the lowest form of humor.

So would rape puns be the ultimate evil in comedy?


Only if they're forced.
 
2013-09-05 05:47:59 PM  
Look, if you're a rape victim ("rape survivor" is a stupid way to say it, by definition you typically survive rape, if you didn't it's more a "murder") and a silly internet comic about imaginary mythological monsters is giving you flashbacks or something, I think the problem isn't that the artists need to be more sensitive, the problem is that you need to spend less time dicking about on the internet and more time in therapy.

This guy is exactly the kind of person that the PA guys have been rightfully mocking.  He's:

1. Being offended on behalf of someone else, that someone else typically not being offended (not hearing a lot of actual rape victims having issues with rapists being depicted as literal monsters).

2. Extremely butthurt over an interpretation of the comic that is outright quantitatively incorrect and

3. Whinging about shiat that doesn't concern him at length instead of noting his dissatisfaction with an appropriate number of words (maybe five or six) and moving on.

//I am aware of the situational irony of me complaining about people wasting large amounts of text on trivial things.
 
2013-09-05 05:48:50 PM  

FrancoFile: It's not the original strip that's the problem.  It's the double-down "don't tell me what to say, you bullies" followups.


If the original strip wasn't a problem, the correct response to people biatching about it is to tell them to piss off.  Why should they be apologetic that some people took offense to something that wasn't actually offensive in the way they claim?  Why are the PA guys beholden to people who didn't read the comic properly, and just threw a fit over the word 'rape"?
 
2013-09-05 05:50:40 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Lady, that's the whole point.  He wasn't making light of rape, he was pointing out some of the logical absurdities in modern gaming, especially MMO's.  The point is that you walk by NPC's constantly are being literally raped/murdered/tortured and you're supposed to just ignore it because you've already done that quest / you've out leveled the xp from it.

They're making fun of games that have you ignore horrible crimes, NOT making fun of rape victims.


Initially, that may have been the point (although, no MMO that I've seen actually has you saving people from rape, and that would probably draw an NC-17 rating anyway). However, when the PA guys were approached by people saying "hey, by including rape in that joke, it was kinda disrespectful, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in the future," they doubled down and start ranting about censorship, selling dickwolves t-shirts, etc. As the article notes, it's the same thing Krahulik did when approached by a transgender friend about some of his comments about trans people: they said that it was disrespectful and asked him not to do it, and he responded with self-righteous anger as if they just curbstomped a puppy.

No one thinks that Krahulik initially intended to make fun of rape victims or transgender people. No one thinks he's a malicious bigot. Rather, the assumption is that he's a reasonable person who occasionally says something that someone interprets as being mean, just like all of us.
But the difference is that when a person says something like that, and someone says, "hey, man, that was kinda hurtful," a reasonable person says, "geez, I didn't mean it that way. I'm sorry," and there's no harm done.  Krahulik, however, says, "how dare you try to censor me, and I'll repeat it twice as loud now." And that's why he's an asshole.
 
2013-09-05 05:51:02 PM  
Ok, so don't go back. But don't imagine that your drama whoring is going to put a dent in the machine. Feminists own the internet. The non-PC crowd legitimately is the harassed minority. Gamers are one of thew few groups who have had the stones to stand up and reject the absurd, offensive, anti-male language that rains down on us every time we venture online. Blue humor is not the same thing as literally advocating for rape in the real world, and f*ck any caterwauling "rape-culture" harpy who says otherwise.
 
2013-09-05 05:51:42 PM  

serial_crusher: I really don't get why rape jokes garner so much more butthurt than jokes about say, murder.
Ok sure, this article seems eerily focused on that comic strip's affect on "rape survivors", whereas murder survivors are nonexistent.  But, what about the family and friends of murder victims?  Would they be justified to get upset about a comic strip on the Internet, but they just haven't decided to?


parazen: Rape jokes are obviously one of the worst forms of humor. Or at least, they're the one form that most often goes badly. However, puns are the lowest form of humor.

So would rape puns be the ultimate evil in comedy?



There was no rape joke from the beginning.  Rape was not joked about, made light of, nor made fun of.  The rape victim in the comic was not made any sort of punch line.  Rape was  referenced, as one of the characters was a repeat victim.  The butt of the joke in the comic was the "player character" who was heartlessly disregarding the victim, as his quest was complete.

But what happened after that?  Oh god, it was just a shiatstorm.  Shiatheads on both sides, arguing over something that  didn't even farking happen.

Farking idiots, all of them (the people being offended over nothing, as well as those out intentionally provoking the first group).
 
2013-09-05 05:54:10 PM  

Thorak: FrancoFile: It's not the original strip that's the problem.  It's the double-down "don't tell me what to say, you bullies" followups.

If the original strip wasn't a problem, the correct response to people biatching about it is to tell them to piss off.  Why should they be apologetic that some people took offense to something that wasn't actually offensive in the way they claim?  Why are the PA guys beholden to people who didn't read the comic properly, and just threw a fit over the word 'rape"?


They're not. Reasonable people who care about their readers and the community would be apologetic, particularly if they never meant offense, but there's no law forcing them to be reasonable. So, it's entirely their option to be assholes.

This is a lesson that a lot of people never learned: it doesn't hurt you to say "I'm sorry".
 
2013-09-05 05:54:51 PM  

Theaetetus: "hey, man, that was kinda hurtful,"


You do realize that "Dickwolves" don't actually exist -don't you?

/btw you have never officially apologized for all the hurtful things that you've typed against me.
 
2013-09-05 05:55:07 PM  
I never thought PA was funny in the first place.
 
2013-09-05 05:55:14 PM  

Theaetetus: Initially, that may have been the point (although, no MMO that I've seen actually has you saving people from rape, and that would probably draw an NC-17 rating anyway). However, when the PA guys were approached by people saying "hey, by including rape in that joke, it was kinda disrespectful, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in the future," they doubled down and start ranting about censorship, selling dickwolves t-shirts, etc. As the article notes, it's the same thing Krahulik did when approached by a transgender friend about some of his comments about trans people: they said that it was disrespectful and asked him not to do it, and he responded with self-righteous anger as if they just curbstomped a puppy.

No one thinks that Krahulik initially intended to make fun of rape victims or transgender people. No one thinks he's a malicious bigot. Rather, the assumption is that he's a reasonable person who occasionally says something that someone interprets as being mean, just like all of us.
But the difference is that when a person says something like that, and someone says, "hey, man, that was kinda hurtful," a reasonable person says, "geez, I didn't mean it that way. I'm sorry," and there's no harm done.  Krahulik, however, says, "how dare you try to censor me, and I'll repeat it twice as loud now." And that's why he's an asshole.


I don't know what the trans comments were, so I won't comment on those, but the dickwolves comic wasn't in any way disrespectful of rape victims.  And someone saying "hey, you disrespected me/us/them", when you  didn't, by any objective analysis, is an attack in and of itself.

Sure, he  could have responded in a less dickish manner.  But he was responding to people who were being dicks to him in the first place.  It's kind of like complaining that he punched you in the face, when he only hit you because you hauled off and decked him for no reason.  They aren't the ones who instigated the fight, they just fought back when challenged on it unfairly.
 
2013-09-05 05:55:34 PM  
I think the silliest part is how every. single. article. on this topic contains the phrase "I now feel unsafe going to PAX"... like Mike is going jump off the stage and rape somebody. Seriously?
 
2013-09-05 05:58:12 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Lady, that's the whole point.  He wasn't making light of rape, he was pointing out some of the logical absurdities in modern gaming, especially MMO's.  The point is that you walk by NPC's constantly are being literally raped/murdered/tortured and you're supposed to just ignore it because you've already done that quest / you've out leveled the xp from it.

They're making fun of games that have you ignore horrible crimes, NOT making fun of rape victims.

And I think they should have ran w/ slaves being raped by hordes of the producer of Law and Order, rather then a wolf.


Several former cast members of any L&O series who were not invited back for this that and the other reason would cheer.
 
2013-09-05 05:58:22 PM  

Theaetetus: They're not. Reasonable people who care about their readers and the community would be apologetic, particularly if they never meant offense, but there's no law forcing them to be reasonable. So, it's entirely their option to be assholes.

This is a lesson that a lot of people never learned: it doesn't hurt you to say "I'm sorry".


"I'm sorry" would be an apology.

What did they do that they should apologize for?  Are you arguing that the dickwolves comic was inherently offensive?  I'm arguing that it wasn't; that it merely used rape as an example of something-terrible to highlight the point being made; rape was chosen specifically  because of how heinous it is, not despite it.

If it wasn't inherently offensive in and of itself, then the issue is not that they  gave offense, it's that other people unfairly  took offense.  If they'd given offense, I'd say yeah, they should apologize.  If they're being attacked unfairly because some people misread their comic and took offense for no justifiable reason, though?  I don't see why an apology should be expected of them.
 
2013-09-05 05:58:41 PM  
Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/
 
2013-09-05 06:00:33 PM  

serial_crusher: I really don't get why rape jokes garner so much more butthurt than jokes about say, murder.
Ok sure, this article seems eerily focused on that comic strip's affect on "rape survivors", whereas murder survivors are nonexistent.  But, what about the family and friends of murder victims?  Would they be justified to get upset about a comic strip on the Internet, but they just haven't decided to?


My initial thought too. Not to belittle the trauma that victims of it go through, in this case anyone raging against PA for this seem to have sidestepped the other 95% of the comics that deal with the characters maiming or just straight-up obilterating each other. Change it out to the Dickwolves 'torturing' them to sleep and a new reader wouldn't know the difference - it's inconsequential.

Another drama-llama on the internet is just trying to make it an issue to get attention.
 
2013-09-05 06:01:04 PM  

Theaetetus: Thorak: FrancoFile: It's not the original strip that's the problem.  It's the double-down "don't tell me what to say, you bullies" followups.

If the original strip wasn't a problem, the correct response to people biatching about it is to tell them to piss off.  Why should they be apologetic that some people took offense to something that wasn't actually offensive in the way they claim?  Why are the PA guys beholden to people who didn't read the comic properly, and just threw a fit over the word 'rape"?

They're not. Reasonable people who care about their readers and the community would be apologetic, particularly if they never meant offense, but there's no law forcing them to be reasonable. So, it's entirely their option to be assholes.

This is a lesson that a lot of people never learned: it doesn't hurt you to say "I'm sorry".


I think his stubbornness is admirable.  If you apologize for something, and actually mean it, you should stop doing the thing you apologized for.  So, an apology would put him in the positon of either having to stop making rape jokes, or have the same people get butthurt over him being insincere.  Better to just let them continue being butthurt about the same thing they were already butthurt about.
 
2013-09-05 06:01:33 PM  

Thorak: FrancoFile: It's not the original strip that's the problem.  It's the double-down "don't tell me what to say, you bullies" followups.

If the original strip wasn't a problem, the correct response to people biatching about it is to tell them to piss off.  Why should they be apologetic that some people took offense to something that wasn't actually offensive in the way they claim?  Why are the PA guys beholden to people who didn't read the comic properly, and just threw a fit over the word 'rape"?


BECAUSE INTERNET BUTTHURT

I hate this generation
 
2013-09-05 06:01:56 PM  

Thorak: Theaetetus: Initially, that may have been the point (although, no MMO that I've seen actually has you saving people from rape, and that would probably draw an NC-17 rating anyway). However, when the PA guys were approached by people saying "hey, by including rape in that joke, it was kinda disrespectful, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't do it in the future," they doubled down and start ranting about censorship, selling dickwolves t-shirts, etc. As the article notes, it's the same thing Krahulik did when approached by a transgender friend about some of his comments about trans people: they said that it was disrespectful and asked him not to do it, and he responded with self-righteous anger as if they just curbstomped a puppy.

No one thinks that Krahulik initially intended to make fun of rape victims or transgender people. No one thinks he's a malicious bigot. Rather, the assumption is that he's a reasonable person who occasionally says something that someone interprets as being mean, just like all of us.
But the difference is that when a person says something like that, and someone says, "hey, man, that was kinda hurtful," a reasonable person says, "geez, I didn't mean it that way. I'm sorry," and there's no harm done.  Krahulik, however, says, "how dare you try to censor me, and I'll repeat it twice as loud now." And that's why he's an asshole.

I don't know what the trans comments were, so I won't comment on those, but the dickwolves comic wasn't in any way disrespectful of rape victims.  And someone saying "hey, you disrespected me/us/them", when you  didn't, by any objective analysis, is an attack in and of itself.


There's no such thing as an objective analysis of someone's subjective feelings. Unless you're that person, you literally have no way of telling whether they were disrespected or not. You can certainly determine whether you intended disrespect, and as I said, no one thinks Mike intended it.

Sure, he  could have responded in a less dickish manner.  But he was responding to people who were being dicks to him in the first place.

Saying "hey, I was kinda offended by that thing you said" is not being a dick, unless you say that you're above any and all potential criticism. That the mere act of someone saying they disagree with you is being a dick. And if you believe that, then you're the Emperor of Dicksburg and shouldn't really be complaining about anyone else.

It's kind of like complaining that he punched you in the face, when he only hit you because you hauled off and decked him for no reason. They aren't the ones who instigated the fight, they just fought back when challenged on it unfairly.

If "I was offended" is equivalent to being punched in the face in your view, then you have a lot of issues to work through and probably should deal with them before you venture out into society where people [gasp] may disagree with you.
 
2013-09-05 06:02:52 PM  

Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/


that reads a bit like "i'm sorry you were offended" which is a great way to apologize when you aren't actually sorry. You'd think he would have learned by now to just say nothing.
 
2013-09-05 06:06:49 PM  

Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/


To summarize:
I don't regret the original strip.  I think it's good art, it's funny, and it makes a point about the brutality, etc in MMos.
I regret everything that happened after the original strip.  We shouldn't have done followups, we shouldn't have produced merchandise, and then we shouldn't have pulled the merchandise.
 
2013-09-05 06:09:07 PM  

Thorak: Theaetetus: They're not. Reasonable people who care about their readers and the community would be apologetic, particularly if they never meant offense, but there's no law forcing them to be reasonable. So, it's entirely their option to be assholes.

This is a lesson that a lot of people never learned: it doesn't hurt you to say "I'm sorry".

"I'm sorry" would be an apology.


Yep. And it doesn't hurt you to apologize. This is something you haven't learned. Try it with me - say "I'm sorry". Are your eyes bleeding? No? See, not so bad.

What did they do that they should apologize for?  Are you arguing that the dickwolves comic was inherently offensive?  I'm arguing that it wasn't; that it merely used rape as an example of something-terrible to highlight the point being made; rape was chosen specifically  because of how heinous it is, not despite it.

I'm arguing that people that they allegedly care about said that they were offended. Did Mike intend to offend them? Obviously not. Would saying "gosh, I didn't mean that. Sorry" cause Mike's eyes to bleed? Would saying that mean he could never venture forth in the light of day? Would it lead to an early grave for poor Mike?
Or would it have resolved everything, instantly, and even increase goodwill towards Mike for making an effort to reach out to people he had unintentionally offended?

If it wasn't inherently offensive in and of itself, then the issue is not that they  gave offense, it's that other people unfairly  took offense.  If they'd given offense, I'd say yeah, they should apologize.  If they're being attacked unfairly because some people misread their comic and took offense for no justifiable reason, though?  I don't see why an apology should be expected of them.

Because one assumes that they're reasonable people who didn't intend to offend anyone. But clearly that assumption and expectation was unwarranted.
 
2013-09-05 06:10:31 PM  

Carth: Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/

that reads a bit like "i'm sorry you were offended" which is a great way to apologize when you aren't actually sorry. You'd think he would have learned by now to just say nothing.


No it doesn't. He says that he doesn't think the initial comic was offensive and doesn't apologize for that. He clearly apologizes for everything that followed and owns up to being wrong to be a dick to the people who complained.
 
2013-09-05 06:11:03 PM  

FrancoFile: Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/

To summarize:
I don't regret the original strip.  I think it's good art, it's funny, and it makes a point about the brutality, etc in MMos.
I regret everything that happened after the original strip.  We shouldn't have done followups, we shouldn't have produced merchandise, and then we shouldn't have pulled the merchandise.


I agree with that.  The original strip was a non-controversy, but the way they reacted just added fuel to the fire.  Whenever something like this happens they should step back from the keyboard for a few days instead of reacting like assholes, even if the people accusing them of supporting rape for a non-rape joke are being assholes to them.
 
2013-09-05 06:11:21 PM  

Theaetetus: Thorak: Theaetetus: They're not. Reasonable people who care about their readers and the community would be apologetic, particularly if they never meant offense, but there's no law forcing them to be reasonable. So, it's entirely their option to be assholes.

This is a lesson that a lot of people never learned: it doesn't hurt you to say "I'm sorry".

"I'm sorry" would be an apology.

Yep. And it doesn't hurt you to apologize. This is something you haven't learned. Try it with me - say "I'm sorry". Are your eyes bleeding? No? See, not so bad.

What did they do that they should apologize for?  Are you arguing that the dickwolves comic was inherently offensive?  I'm arguing that it wasn't; that it merely used rape as an example of something-terrible to highlight the point being made; rape was chosen specifically  because of how heinous it is, not despite it.

I'm arguing that people that they allegedly care about said that they were offended. Did Mike intend to offend them? Obviously not. Would saying "gosh, I didn't mean that. Sorry" cause Mike's eyes to bleed? Would saying that mean he could never venture forth in the light of day? Would it lead to an early grave for poor Mike?
Or would it have resolved everything, instantly, and even increase goodwill towards Mike for making an effort to reach out to people he had unintentionally offended?

If it wasn't inherently offensive in and of itself, then the issue is not that they  gave offense, it's that other people unfairly  took offense.  If they'd given offense, I'd say yeah, they should apologize.  If they're being attacked unfairly because some people misread their comic and took offense for no justifiable reason, though?  I don't see why an apology should be expected of them.

Because one assumes that they're reasonable people who didn't intend to offend anyone. But clearly that assumption and expectation was unwarranted.


... have you even read the original comic? Did you even try to understand its underlying point?
 
2013-09-05 06:11:23 PM  

FrancoFile: Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/

To summarize:
I don't regret the original strip.  I think it's good art, it's funny, and it makes a point about the brutality, etc in MMos.
I regret everything that happened after the original strip.  We shouldn't have done followups, we shouldn't have produced merchandise, and then we shouldn't have pulled the merchandise.


I agree that's what he is trying to get across. I think Mike is just human and people want to make him a role model he doesn't want to be. It seems like we have to have a long time after an artist to separate them from their work. I feel bad for him. If you ever watch 4th panel or listen to their podcasts it's very clear he suffers from poor socialization. He's been pretty open about having to be medicated. The guy is a brilliant artist but some people want to try and make him something he's not. Don't put him on a pedestal, he doesn't want it and you'll be disappointed.
 
2013-09-05 06:12:57 PM  
I liked the original strip and thought it was funny.

I never have, nor ever will, give a flying fark about what other people are offended by unless the person causing the offense is in a position of power, not a farking webcomic artist.
 
2013-09-05 06:15:03 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: ... have you even read the original comic? Did you even try to understand its underlying point?


This post was almost half an hour ago:

Theaetetus: Initially, that may have been the point (although, no MMO that I've seen actually has you saving people from rape, and that would probably draw an NC-17 rating anyway).


Please try to keep up, Slim. Next time, when you reply, try to respond to the points in the post you're responding to, rather than ones from much earlier. It throws the flow of the thread off. Kthx.
 
2013-09-05 06:17:37 PM  
I don't get it.
 
2013-09-05 06:17:57 PM  

Theaetetus: There's no such thing as an objective analysis of someone's subjective feelings. Unless you're that person, you literally have no way of telling whether they were disrespected or not. You can certainly determine whether you intended disrespect, and as I said, no one thinks Mike intended it.


Then we're back to the difference between  giving offense and someone  taking offense.  You should apologize for the former.  The latter, often not.


Theaetetus: Saying "hey, I was kinda offended by that thing you said" is not being a dick, unless you say that you're above any and all potential criticism. That the mere act of someone saying they disagree with you is being a dick. And if you believe that, then you're the Emperor of Dicksburg and shouldn't really be complaining about anyone else.


The whole thing wasn't just people saying "hey, I was kinda offended by that 'raped by dickwolves' thing".  They were accusing the PA guys of having offended them and making light of rape.  That's not the same thing.

Someone accusing you of being offensive is an attack.  It's not a barrage of cruise missiles, but it's not innocent, either, and firing back in turn when it's unwarranted is a legitimate response.


Theaetetus: If "I was offended" is equivalent to being punched in the face in your view, then you have a lot of issues to work through and probably should deal with them before you venture out into society where people [gasp] may disagree with you.


That there's what we call "an analogy".  I wasn't saying "A is the same as B".  I was saying "A1 is to A2 as B1 is to B2".  That defending yourself from an attack claiming you were offensive by responding in kind is comparable to defending yourself physically from a physical assault.

That's not saying that someone saying "I find that offensive" is the same as a punch in the face, or that you should punch that guy in the face.  It was a comment about responding in kind to an unwarranted attack.
 
2013-09-05 06:21:34 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: FrancoFile: Abracapocalypse: Krahulik just posted a direct response to this issue on the front page.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/

To summarize:
I don't regret the original strip.  I think it's good art, it's funny, and it makes a point about the brutality, etc in MMos.
I regret everything that happened after the original strip.  We shouldn't have done followups, we shouldn't have produced merchandise, and then we shouldn't have pulled the merchandise.

I agree with that.  The original strip was a non-controversy, but the way they reacted just added fuel to the fire.  Whenever something like this happens they should step back from the keyboard for a few days instead of reacting like assholes, even if the people accusing them of supporting rape for a non-rape joke are being assholes to them.


This. The original comic was misinterpreted by some people, but the creators reacted to that in the worst possible way: by mocking them. Reasonable dialogue with misinterpreters is not impossible, but it is exceedingly difficult: if you're not already a pro, it is better to not engage at all.
 
2013-09-05 06:21:54 PM  
I'm trying to be outraged but still don't really know what I'm supposed to be angry about.
 
2013-09-05 06:22:02 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: parazen: Rape jokes are obviously one of the worst forms of humor. Or at least, they're the one form that most often goes badly. However, puns are the lowest form of humor.

So would rape puns be the ultimate evil in comedy?

Only if they're forced.


28.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-09-05 06:22:48 PM  

parazen: Rape jokes are obviously one of the worst forms of humor. Or at least, they're the one form that most often goes badly. However, puns are the lowest form of humor.


Clearly you have never seen Carrot Top.
 
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