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(USA Today)   Atheists sue to rescue children from the boringest part of the school day   (usatoday.com) divider line 211
    More: Hero, Pledge of Allegiance, mess, Humanist associations, atheists, American Humanist Association, religious laws, Boston College Law School, court officer  
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3449 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Sep 2013 at 1:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-05 08:15:44 AM  
in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.
 
2013-09-05 09:07:01 AM  
Subby obviously wasn't in my 11th grade physics class.
 
2013-09-05 09:09:16 AM  

ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.


In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.
 
2013-09-05 09:12:11 AM  
lol, written by a self-proclaimed chritian socialist, to boot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
 
2013-09-05 09:35:10 AM  

Lurking Fear: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.


I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.
 
2013-09-05 09:51:13 AM  

doglover: Lurking Fear: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.

I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


Religious folk have to be tolerant of of their Atheism, but they don't have the be tolerant of anyone's Religion.
 
2013-09-05 10:19:16 AM  

ManateeGag: Religious folk have to be tolerant of of their Atheism, but they don't have the be tolerant of anyone's Religion.


Exactly. You want to see a good atheist? Look at Penn Jillette. He's charismatic, honest, and respectful and most of the time he's not even talking about atheism.
 
2013-09-05 10:30:12 AM  

doglover: I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


There's a great deal of merit to that idea. But then there's this from the article:

What's more, they said, reference to "one nation under God" does not necessarily affirm theistic belief.

With the disclaimer that I'm not getting worked up about whether it's actually there or not as long as the kids aren't required to recite it:
If these folks are going to argue in favor of keeping the reference to God, at least they shouldn't try to farking lie about what it is. If you have the word "God" in there, it's referring to a theistic belief. In view of what 100 percent of the population understands the word "God" to mean in any kind of context that doesn't imply a joke, there's no other interpretation if you're trying to discuss it honestly. You can't have it both ways. And the kids aren't going to benefit from a line like that.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-05 10:34:49 AM  
When I was a kid we had to recite the Lord's Prayer too.  Of course, that was in Alabama.
 
2013-09-05 10:38:02 AM  
I have less of a problem with the reference to God than I do about the mindless indoctrination of the Pledge in the first place. Get kids to say it every day, starting from before they are capable of understanding it, and it simply becomes meaningless words recited daily until graduation.
 
2013-09-05 10:48:42 AM  
But having said what I said above, I would be in full support of revising it to say "One nation under a groove."
 
2013-09-05 10:52:19 AM  
I wonder what these sorts of folks would think about having school kids memorize the Declaration of Independence or the Gettysburg Address. Obviously, no one has to say those every day, but both of those make reference to a supreme being.

Secret Agent X23: But having said what I said above, I would be in full support of revising it to say "One nation under a groove."


Oh, you know I can dig it.
 
2013-09-05 11:13:18 AM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: I have less of a problem with the reference to God than I do about the mindless indoctrination of the Pledge in the first place. Get kids to say it every day, starting from before they are capable of understanding it, and it simply becomes meaningless words recited daily until graduation.


Yep. Have you ever just watched people saying the pledge? Zombies. They're just mouthing the words. They don't care, the words don't mean anything, yet they will stand there saying it automatically.
 
2013-09-05 11:17:32 AM  

doglover: I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


How about if they used the lawyers to argue the law and then the law of the land gets upheld? Would it be okay if kids lived in that country?
 
2013-09-05 11:53:05 AM  
Why the hell are children being asked to pledge their allegiance to things anyway
 
2013-09-05 11:55:42 AM  
I think they should add the words, "And to boldly go where no one has gone before" to the end of it.
 
2013-09-05 11:56:41 AM  
Pledge advocates hit back. No one has to say the pledge, they noted, citing a court ruling that confirms the pledge must always be voluntary. What's more, they said, reference to "one nation under God" does not necessarily affirm theistic belief.

"It's not an affirmation of religion?" asked Associate Justice Barbara Lenk.

"It's a statement of our political philosophy," answered Geoffrey Bok, attorney for the defendants. "It's the founding thing upon which our country was founded. That's why it wasn't added to the pledge until 1954, when our country was truly founded as an anti-communist Christian Republic. Accordingly, and particularly with the 50th birthday of our country next year, we believe this case should be dismissed."
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-05 12:00:47 PM  

Relatively Obscure: Why the hell are children being asked to pledge their allegiance to things anyway


I think it's called "civics".  They used to teach that.
 
2013-09-05 12:01:19 PM  
Attorney David Niose, representing anonymous atheist parents

Don't they have something better to do like picketing Scientology or sending pizzas to someones house?
 
2013-09-05 12:04:10 PM  

vpb: When I was a kid we had to recite the Lord's Prayer too.  Of course, that was in Alabama.


When the hell was that?  Please tell me you are Fark's official Octogenarian.
 
2013-09-05 12:05:17 PM  

ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.


And if they didn't stay quiet, you throttled them with your onion belt, right?

Meh, yet another case where I am not nearly as outraged as these particular atheists, but since the issue has been raised, I support them.  Much like "God" on money, it shouldn't be there, but I just can't get all that riled up about it.

Although, it might be different if I had kids.

I'm much more bothered by the droning daily recitation of faith to a f*cking flag.
 
2013-09-05 12:05:46 PM  

Relatively Obscure: Why the hell are children being asked to pledge their allegiance to things anyway

^^^This^^^

vpb: I think it's called "civics".  They used to teach that.


Understanding how a government works and how to participate in it is one thing.  Telling kids that they should be taking a loyalty oath every f*cking day before school is another thing entirely.

For one, it devalues the oath itself.  The pledge is an extremely important concept, and taking it should be deeply meaningful.  It's impossible to make it meaningful after you've recited it over 2,300 times.

For another, children should not be asked to take oaths by their government at all.
 
2013-09-05 12:07:40 PM  

ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.


In my 3rd Grade class, we had two Jehovah's Witnesses (or something similar) who sat down silently for the pledge. No one cared or said sh*t about it.

My 2nd Grade teacher told us all to tell our parents to vote for Ronald Reagan and after he was elected made us create a big congratulatory card with jelly beans glued to it to send to the White House (she was clinically insane).

No one cared about that either. Today, there'd already have been a Movie of the Week made about it and the children who went through it would be labelled "survivors."
 
2013-09-05 12:10:56 PM  
Is anyone upset that they changed the salute?


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-09-05 12:11:35 PM  

spongeboob: vpb: When I was a kid we had to recite the Lord's Prayer too.  Of course, that was in Alabama.

When the hell was that?  Please tell me you are Fark's official Octogenarian.


My dad went to a one-room school in rural Oklahoma in the 1930s and 40s.  They NEVER prayed in school, and "God" wasn't in the Pledge - which until he was almost ten was recited with the Bellamy Salute.  To the day he died, he could never remember where the "God part" (as he called it) went in the Pledge.
 
2013-09-05 12:14:05 PM  

vpb: Relatively Obscure: Why the hell are children being asked to pledge their allegiance to things anyway

I think it's called "civics".  They used to teach that.


No, it isn't.
 
2013-09-05 12:17:57 PM  
I love the irony that the insertion of "under God" into the pledge divided "one nation, indivisible".
 
2013-09-05 12:21:57 PM  

vpb: Relatively Obscure: Why the hell are children being asked to pledge their allegiance to things anyway

I think it's called "civics".  They used to teach that.


Boy I remembers kindergarten civics course. Right between nap time and calculus.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-09-05 12:28:00 PM  

spongeboob: vpb: When I was a kid we had to recite the Lord's Prayer too.  Of course, that was in Alabama.

When the hell was that?  Please tell me you are Fark's official Octogenarian.


Early seventies.  I'm not THAT old.
 
2013-09-05 12:29:58 PM  

doglover: Lurking Fear: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.

I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


Oh come on now.  If we did that, what would lawyers do?  They're one of the largest blocs of white-collar professionals in this country.  If all that work suddenly went away, why, there'd be fewer lawyers with their 6-figure (plus) salaries, buying stuff and keeping our economy afloat.  And then we'd just sink into another Super Mega Grand Recession.

Why do you hate America? :(
 
2013-09-05 12:33:44 PM  

sigdiamond2000: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my 3rd Grade class, we had two Jehovah's Witnesses (or something similar) who sat down silently for the pledge. No one cared or said sh*t about it.

My 2nd Grade teacher told us all to tell our parents to vote for Ronald Reagan and after he was elected made us create a big congratulatory card with jelly beans glued to it to send to the White House (she was clinically insane).

No one cared about that either. Today, there'd already have been a Movie of the Week made about it and the children who went through it would be labelled "survivors."


That's some compelling anecdotal evidence you have there. I'm firmly convinced there is no bigotry towards non-christians now!
 
2013-09-05 12:34:12 PM  

doglover: I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


There's no changing minds about reality. Things either exist or they do not. It's not a choice someone can make. They can choose whether to BELIEVE something exists, but that makes no statement at all about what reality actually is. And reality is there is no evidence that any of the more than 1000 gods that humans currently worship actually exist. That includes the god of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph.
 
2013-09-05 12:38:25 PM  
I remember I had a teacher in High school who told us that he did not say the part under God. I shrugged. Didn't matter to me one way or another whether or not he said it. He learned it without it and said it the same way he learned it. He was an athieist as well.

He made us memorize poetry for our final exams.
And we read Ibsen.
Mr Speece. My favorite.
 
2013-09-05 12:49:27 PM  

Barfmaker: doglover: I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.

How about if they used the lawyers to argue the law and then the law of the land gets upheld? Would it be okay if kids lived in that country?


Not to speak for doglover, but I think that all this lawyer stuff should be a last resort. Of course, we can't assume we have anything like the whole story here, and the folks against it may actually be using the court as a last resort, but there's no indication in the story that they tried anything else first.

I also think that if you're inclined to go bringing lawyers into stuff, maybe it would be more productive to choose your battles so you can use those lawyers to better effect than on a case like this where you have kids reciting something they're not even thinking about. LIke, maybe, find someone who's actually been discriminated against because he or she's an atheist and help him (or her).
 
2013-09-05 01:34:42 PM  

doglover: Lurking Fear: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.

I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.


I agree, those loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma should never have Congress change the pledge to make it conform to their small-minded bigotries.
 
2013-09-05 01:39:59 PM  

ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.


In your day if any kid admitted to being an Atheist the other kids took them out back and beat the shiat out of them.
 
2013-09-05 01:41:17 PM  
While I'm in the "Freedom FROM religion" crowd...I think this is just silly.  You don't want to pray?  Don't'.  You don't wanna "pledge allegiance under god?"  Don't.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Now, if they were docking your grade for omitting the 'under god' part, or something along those lines, I'd agree with the suit.  But this seems just silly.
 
2013-09-05 01:41:19 PM  
Sixty years later, we're still sticking it to those ungodly Commies.
 
2013-09-05 01:42:27 PM  

xanadian: doglover: Lurking Fear: ManateeGag: in my day, if a parent had a problem with their kid saying the pledge, the kid just stood there quietly while everyone else said it.  no one sued anyone.

In my day blah, blah, blah. Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation. It wasn't in there when it was written, it shouldn't have been shoehorned in by christian zealots in the 50's. Kids shouldn't have to make that choice.

I don't think kids should have to live in a country where a bunch of loutish, self-centered people with zero charisma use lawyers to force people to conform to their small minded bigotries by in force instead of actually changing people's minds with intelligent discourse.

Oh come on now.  If we did that, what would lawyers do?  They're one of the largest blocs of white-collar professionals in this country.  If all that work suddenly went away, why, there'd be fewer lawyers with their 6-figure (plus) salaries, buying stuff and keeping our economy afloat.  And then we'd just sink into another Super Mega Grand Recession.

Why do you hate America? :(


America shot my dog.
 
2013-09-05 01:43:25 PM  
Way to prove you have the whole "priorities" thing down, you guys.
 
2013-09-05 01:44:34 PM  

doglover: ManateeGag: Religious folk have to be tolerant of of their Atheism, but they don't have the be tolerant of anyone's Religion.

Exactly. You want to see a good atheist? Look at Penn Jillette. He's charismatic, honest, and respectful and most of the time he's not even talking about atheism.


I was a big fan of his approach until, in an interview, he said that he believes atheist beliefs stem from unconditional love at home, implying that religion is merely filling in for a lack of parental love. I'd have been fine with this if he'd meant that's where HIS atheism came from, but he was using it as a broad, sweeping generalization.

/still a fan of his style and comedy
 
2013-09-05 01:45:43 PM  
Atheists.

Because, vegetarians aren't obnoxious enough.

Now, everyone do what they say. NOW.

Because they said so, that's why.
 
2013-09-05 01:46:46 PM  
In the 90's I was constantly sent to the principle for not saying under god and getting in trouble and recently my small town in Oklahoma had an article in the huffingtonpost about an atheist kid getting a hard time from the same ppl that have me a hard time and the kids little sister being picked on and the school district doing nothing about it.

I contacted him and let him know how I was treated as well.

I would like for it to be taken out to see who is Christian and who. Is Christian Taliban.
 
2013-09-05 01:47:48 PM  
www.atheistmemebase.com
Or parents who have a problem with it could just tell there kids to say the real pledge.
/Just sayin'
 
2013-09-05 01:48:10 PM  
Good, maybe we will have less Tea Tards in the future.
 
2013-09-05 01:48:21 PM  
The pledge is stupid and adding religion into it is just the cherry on top of the stupid.
 
2013-09-05 01:49:05 PM  

vpb: spongeboob: vpb: When I was a kid we had to recite the Lord's Prayer too.  Of course, that was in Alabama.

When the hell was that?  Please tell me you are Fark's official Octogenarian.

Early seventies.  I'm not THAT old.


The Lord's Prayer was still happening in Canada into the 80s. I even remember being given a copy of the New Testament in 5th grade. Eventually got phased out, but not until the late 80s I believe, at least where I was living at the time, which was in a suburb of Toronto, not out in bumfark nowhere. Never had to say a pledge though.
 
2013-09-05 01:49:51 PM  
Look at Penn Jillette. He's charismatic, honest, and respectful and most of the time he's not even talking about atheism.

Like the time he knocked some chick out of winning a beauty pageant on TV (he was a judge) just because she said something about (grab a hold of something) JESUS in answering his judge question to her. And then went on Twitter bragging about it.

So yeah, real respectful. Penn is as pointy headed, closed minded and bigoted as most atheists are.
 
2013-09-05 01:51:36 PM  
Religion doesn't belong in our schools or on our money.
 
2013-09-05 01:54:32 PM  

Lurking Fear: Your "god" has no place in the pledge in a secular nation.


I agree, but more importantly: Coerced recitation of *anything* has no place in a Nation that has Freedom of Speech.
 
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