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(NYPost)   You might not want to hear this, you overworked miserable wretches, but medieval peasants got more vacation time than us. Now get back to work   (nypost.com) divider line 225
    More: Interesting, vacation time, Greek Prime Minister, John Maynard Keynes  
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9498 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Sep 2013 at 8:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-05 08:02:49 AM  
Their Black Plague benefits were better too.
 
2013-09-05 08:19:48 AM  
And supposedly the hunter-gatherers only worked a few of hours a week - still glad I'm not one of them

-of course, I actually have good vacation benefits (yay Canada!) and take all of it (sometimes rolling over a balance of 2 or 3 days) every year
 
2013-09-05 08:37:17 AM  
This Swiss had a saying: Nine months of winter, three months of hell.
 
2013-09-05 08:50:31 AM  
How many sick days did they get, though?
 
2013-09-05 08:51:05 AM  
The article does make a good point, which is that Americans have so little vacation time that it actually hurts our productivity. If you increased American vacation time right now by one full week, our productivity would skyrocket as a result.

And yet companies continue to cut back on it.
 
2013-09-05 08:51:38 AM  
Well, we could all revert to an almost completely agrarian society and get most of the winter off too..  I for one enjoy the conveniences of a post industrial society.
 
2013-09-05 08:53:54 AM  
Only less than 60% of the working age population has a job.  What you talking about subby?
 
2013-09-05 08:54:20 AM  
The next hard hitting piece from a Murdoch rag rumored to be "Things cost money."
 
2013-09-05 08:54:26 AM  
I'll take a few extra days of work for having some medical benefits beyond leeches thank you
 
2013-09-05 08:56:04 AM  

montreal_medic: And supposedly the hunter-gatherers only worked a few of hours a week - still glad I'm not one of them

-of course, I actually have good vacation benefits (yay Canada!) and take all of it (sometimes rolling over a balance of 2 or 3 days) every year


Yeah, no. I'm Canadian too, and we have shiat compared to Europe.
 
2013-09-05 08:57:32 AM  
This message brought to you by the American Tourism Board.
 
2013-09-05 08:57:47 AM  
But, air conditioning though.
 
2013-09-05 08:58:06 AM  
Be nice to Americas nobility and get back to work!
 
2013-09-05 09:00:39 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: montreal_medic: And supposedly the hunter-gatherers only worked a few of hours a week - still glad I'm not one of them

-of course, I actually have good vacation benefits (yay Canada!) and take all of it (sometimes rolling over a balance of 2 or 3 days) every year

Yeah, no. I'm Canadian too, and we have shiat compared to Europe.


I get a full month's worth.

/American.
 
2013-09-05 09:03:47 AM  
In some sense, it's society's inability to accept that technology-displaced workers should probably be compensated. If you're not working, you're not worth paying, basically.

But if technology is displacing workers and the remaining open positions can't absorb these people, then they slip through the cracks while the machines earn the owners more at less cost.

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?
 
2013-09-05 09:03:48 AM  
53 years old, 2 weeks off a year. 2008 cost me a couple jobs and all accumulated vacation time.
 
2013-09-05 09:10:15 AM  
The workers on Downton Abbey never get a decent vacation.
 
2013-09-05 09:10:47 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: In some sense, it's society's inability to accept that technology-displaced workers should probably be compensated. If you're not working, you're not worth paying, basically.

But if technology is displacing workers and the remaining open positions can't absorb these people, then they slip through the cracks while the machines earn the owners more at less cost.

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?


Um, what?  Pay people for not working? Do you not realize how capitalism works? You get paid for the value you create.  If you aren't creating value, you don't get paid.
 
2013-09-05 09:10:52 AM  

dittybopper: God Is My Co-Pirate: montreal_medic: And supposedly the hunter-gatherers only worked a few of hours a week - still glad I'm not one of them

-of course, I actually have good vacation benefits (yay Canada!) and take all of it (sometimes rolling over a balance of 2 or 3 days) every year

Yeah, no. I'm Canadian too, and we have shiat compared to Europe.

I get a full month's worth.

/American.


Me too (plus ten paid holidays).  Granted, its "PTO" so its for both sick and vacation.
 
2013-09-05 09:11:29 AM  

appclayton: But, air conditioning though.


Refrigerators, too.
 
2013-09-05 09:12:17 AM  
I work for Sears in a non retail position. Did I get vacation days on my one year anniversary? Nope. That's when I started earning them. I won't be able to take a paid week off until my second year. Humans aren't designed for this.
 
2013-09-05 09:12:18 AM  
 
2013-09-05 09:12:47 AM  
As for the modern American worker?  After a year on the job, she gets an average of eight vacation days annually.

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-09-05 09:13:06 AM  
An average of 8 days after a year of work? That is a horrible number.

A bunch of you need to get better at salary negotiation so we can bring that number up...we are looking like chumps.
 
2013-09-05 09:13:52 AM  
Not true.  If you want to live in a 1 room hovel without electricity or water or sanitation, that is still an option today while working very little.
 
2013-09-05 09:13:53 AM  

dittybopper: God Is My Co-Pirate: montreal_medic: And supposedly the hunter-gatherers only worked a few of hours a week - still glad I'm not one of them

-of course, I actually have good vacation benefits (yay Canada!) and take all of it (sometimes rolling over a balance of 2 or 3 days) every year

Yeah, no. I'm Canadian too, and we have shiat compared to Europe.

I get a full month's worth.

/American.


Me too, but 6-8 is more usual in Europe, and the US has more statutory holidays than Canada.
 
2013-09-05 09:13:53 AM  

picturescrazy: I work for Sears in a non retail position. Did I get vacation days on my one year anniversary? Nope. That's when I started earning them. I won't be able to take a paid week off until my second year. Humans aren't designed for this.


Until after my second year.
 
2013-09-05 09:14:34 AM  
They also had better grammar than we have, right subby ?
 
2013-09-05 09:14:39 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: In some sense, it's society's inability to accept that technology-displaced workers should probably be compensated. If you're not working, you're not worth paying, basically.

But if technology is displacing workers and the remaining open positions can't absorb these people, then they slip through the cracks while the machines earn the owners more at less cost.

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?


The problem is a lot of CEOs are dicks to people who are poor and want jobs. We got people now who are interviewing and are getting called in for three or more interviews and never hearing if they get the job or not. I applied for a job down state never heard back from them. If I could I would call and ask what's up but I can't really.
 
2013-09-05 09:16:42 AM  

DubtodaIll: AverageAmericanGuy: In some sense, it's society's inability to accept that technology-displaced workers should probably be compensated. If you're not working, you're not worth paying, basically.

But if technology is displacing workers and the remaining open positions can't absorb these people, then they slip through the cracks while the machines earn the owners more at less cost.

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?

Um, what?  Pay people for not working? Do you not realize how capitalism works? You get paid for the value you create.  If you aren't creating value, you don't get paid.


Some factory worker *was* creating value. Then a machine replaced him. The value of that job still exists, but instead of going to a worker, the value is transferred to the company. Now the worker has no job and the remaining employed members of society must contribute more to keep him (and his family) from starving.
 
2013-09-05 09:17:13 AM  

Rincewind53: If you increased American vacation time right now by one full week, our productivity would skyrocket as a result.


The Administration has been looking for ways to kick start the economy for 5 years now...this needs to be a part of any new stimulus initiative. It's so simple.
 
2013-09-05 09:18:45 AM  

picturescrazy: I work for Sears in a non retail position. Did I get vacation days on my one year anniversary? Nope. That's when I started earning them. I won't be able to take a paid week off until my second year. Humans aren't designed for this.


You know we could start doing the evil thing and start striking for a union and paid time off.
 
2013-09-05 09:20:30 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: DubtodaIll: AverageAmericanGuy: In some sense, it's society's inability to accept that technology-displaced workers should probably be compensated. If you're not working, you're not worth paying, basically.

But if technology is displacing workers and the remaining open positions can't absorb these people, then they slip through the cracks while the machines earn the owners more at less cost.

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?

Um, what?  Pay people for not working? Do you not realize how capitalism works? You get paid for the value you create.  If you aren't creating value, you don't get paid.

Some factory worker *was* creating value. Then a machine replaced him. The value of that job still exists, but instead of going to a worker, the value is transferred to the company. Now the worker has no job and the remaining employed members of society must contribute more to keep him (and his family) from starving.


And technically one could argue that perhaps that displaced worker is still creating value. He stays at home with his kids, mentoring them, tutoring them, etc.. creating added value down the road as an investment in those kids. Or maybe he takes up art and creates wonderful pieces for the town or city he lives in, writes a book, etc.. you get the idea.

We need to detach ourselves from the idea that value can only be measured in dollars.
 
2013-09-05 09:21:45 AM  
AverageAmericanGuy:

It's a dilemma. Can we create a paid non-working class without fostering a culture of sloth? Hasn't our experience with the welfare system so far shown how badly that kind of thing can go? How much can we skim off the productive members of society before they stop investing in technical improvements?

They did an experiment on this in Canada in the 70's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome ) - most people want something productive to do. How would it work in the long term? I have no idea.

It is a dilemma though - technology isn't going to stop progressing and almost every advancement in automation makes a set of jobs somewhere a little more uneconomical and skews the wealth distribution a little more towards the top. Once we put everyone out of work through automation - what then?
 
2013-09-05 09:21:50 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: I'll take a few extra days of work for having some medical benefits beyond leeches thank you


[whynotboth.jpg]
 
2013-09-05 09:24:15 AM  
I get 20 days, plus five floating holidays, and three days to do volunteer work.  Oh, and a seven week sabbatical after seven years (at 6...).

I also have no desire to trade my job for tilling a field by hand or some such.
 
2013-09-05 09:25:25 AM  
Ha ha..United States sucks.
 
2013-09-05 09:25:29 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: And technically one could argue that perhaps that displaced worker is still creating value. He stays at home with his kids,

mentoring them, tutoring them beating them, smoking meth, etc.. creating added value down the road as an investment in those kids. Or maybe he takes up art and creates wonderful pieces for the town or city he lives in, writes a book, etc.. you get the idea.

We need to detach ourselves from the idea that value can only be measured in dollars.


FTFY

/if only it really happened your way
 
2013-09-05 09:25:37 AM  
What happened?

The productivity gains happened, but the benefits were taken by the rich rather than distributed among society.
 
2013-09-05 09:26:40 AM  

uber humper: Only less than 60% of the working age population has a job.  What you talking about subby?


Um the data I've seen puts us at almost 67% which is higher than every country except most of the northern European ones, Japan, Canada, Australia, Austria, Germany, and Switzerland.

And they, almost all, have more paid leave than we do. Japan is the only country that doesn't AFAIK. Iceland has more than 5 weeks like most of the countries with higher employment than we have. (We have none, BTW. It depends entirely on your contract which can vary a lot.)
 
2013-09-05 09:27:28 AM  

Crewmannumber6: /if only it really happened your way


Some would yes, I would argue however that many would not.
 
2013-09-05 09:28:32 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: And technically one could argue that perhaps that displaced worker is still creating value. He stays at home with his kids, mentoring them, tutoring them, etc.. creating added value down the road as an investment in those kids.


Although if in another generation or so when there are no jobs for those kids as everything but a few niche professions/trades and the sex industry are automated... what happens to them? what does their future look like?
 
2013-09-05 09:31:36 AM  

Rincewind53: a good point, which is that Americans have so little vacation time that it actually hurts our productivity. If you increased American vacation time right now by one full week, our productivity would skyrocket as a result.

And yet companies continue to cut back on it.


No.  No.  It's called "Personal Time"  now.  You get so many personal days to use as you choose.  Of course, if you actually use them, your next performance review will go like this:

Boss:  Harry, you are an excellent employee but you used all your personal days last years.  Why is that?  Do you have personal issues?  Are you excessively ill?  I only ask that because we do have to protect the workforce we've built up here and if you are contagious, we should know about it so we can mitigate our loses. Also, I shouldn't be saying this, but with the upcoming cutbacks, the upper management will be looking at certain metrics in order to decide which assets are released.  Are you following me, Harry?

Harry:  Uh, potato?

/Still waiting for input from an engineer.  Can either Fark or dice dot com.  Keyboard smashing sounds like work.
 
2013-09-05 09:31:37 AM  
Not really sure how "unpaid time doing necessary, difficult household work holed up in a shanty with the farm animals and fleas" is analogous to "vacation" but I guess they weren't technically doing the normal sun-up-to-sun-down backbreaking farm labor so it must've felt comparatively relaxing to instead spend the day trying to whittle crude household implements or cook over the choking smoke of the open flame in the middle of your hut.

Americans get screwed on vacation time, definitely.  But how about we stick to comparing it with the rest of the Western world instead of this apples-to-oranges crap?
 
2013-09-05 09:31:53 AM  
I just started working for Amazon in Germany as a lowly warehouse worker, and I can say that everyone working there starts out with 28 vacation days, which is almost six weeks. Pretty much the standard in Germany. Oh, and our Christmas bonuses are equal to almost one month's pay. Thank you  ver.di
 
2013-09-05 09:32:59 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: AverageAmericanGuy: DubtodaIll: Um, what?  Pay people for not working? Do you not realize how capitalism works? You get paid for the value you create.  If you aren't creating value, you don't get paid.

Some factory worker *was* creating value. Then a machine replaced him. The value of that job still exists, but instead of going to a worker, the value is transferred to the company. Now the worker has no job and the remaining employed members of society must contribute more to keep him (and his family) from starving.

And technically one could argue that perhaps that displaced worker is still creating value. He stays at home with his kids, mentoring them, tutoring them, etc.. creating added value down the road as an investment in those kids. Or maybe he takes up art and creates wonderful pieces for the town or city he lives in, writes a book, etc.. you get the idea.

We need to detach ourselves from the idea that value can only be measured in dollars.


We need to detach ourselves from the idea that we have real capatalism and stop pretending it is bad for the govt to "give" to peopel but ok to give to corporations.
 
2013-09-05 09:34:04 AM  
We Brits get 25 days a year statutary minimum even if working part time from day 1 in the company, but this can include the 8 public holidays. I work for a unionised UK based multinational and get 32 paid days plus the 8 public holidays so 8 weeks. And weekends of course.This is fairly typical for large UK corporations. How can anyone work to their full potential with no proper holiday?
 
2013-09-05 09:34:58 AM  
I hear unemployed people get a lot of vacation time too.
 
2013-09-05 09:35:45 AM  
Society generally uses productivity gains to generate more wealth, not more liesure.  Deal.
 
2013-09-05 09:36:48 AM  

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: IdBeCrazyIf: And technically one could argue that perhaps that displaced worker is still creating value. He stays at home with his kids, mentoring them, tutoring them, etc.. creating added value down the road as an investment in those kids.

Although if in another generation or so when there are no jobs for those kids as everything but a few niche professions/trades and the sex industry are automated... what happens to them? what does their future look like?


Humanity finally freeing itself from the necessity of labour?
 
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