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(CBS News)   "Clearly fish is meat," said Jeff Kerr, an attorney for PETA. "They have thoughts. They have interests. They have a central nervous system. They are not swimming vegetables"   (cbsnews.com) divider line 39
    More: Stupid, PETA, Dietary Reference Intake, vegetarians, Institutionalized Persons Act, Department of Corrections, Religious Land Use  
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4801 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Sep 2013 at 8:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-09-05 08:42:56 AM  
8 votes:
"They're made out of meat."

     "Meat?"

     "Meat. They're made out of meat."

     "Meat?"

     "There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

     "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"

     "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

     "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

     "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."

     "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

     "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."

     "Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

     "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?"

     "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

     "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through."

     "No brain?"

     "Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."

     "So ... what does the thinking?"

     "You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."

     "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

     "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?"

     "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

     "Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

     "Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"

     "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual."

     "We're supposed to talk to meat."

     "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."

     "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"

     "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

     "I thought you just told me they used radio."

     "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

     "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

     "Officially or unofficially?"

     "Both."

     "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

     "I was hoping you would say that."

     "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

     "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

     "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

     "So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."

     "That's it."

     "Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

     "They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

     "A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

     "And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."

     "Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

     "Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

     "They always come around."

     "And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone ..."
2013-09-05 08:46:07 AM  
3 votes:
Plants also have primitive intelligence and are known to communicate with each other and call for help when being eaten or threatened. The idea that you are morally superior because your food doesn't have a face is laughable.
2013-09-05 08:36:04 AM  
3 votes:
I will say that's something that's always bugged me with the "fish can't feel pain" argument. Anyone who has ever caught a fish knows that it will fight and flail to get away with all it's strength, even if it's bleeding out and dying. That means they have to have some sort of rapid response system aimed at self preservation against dangerous stimuli. Sure it might not be experienced the same way as humans do, but "pain" has to exist in all animals to some degree simply because they have something driving them towards self-preservative behavior.
2013-09-05 08:23:21 AM  
3 votes:
He forgot to mention tasty.
2013-09-05 08:36:08 AM  
2 votes:
I don't understand the mindset where some people draw arbitrary lines and declare that only red meat counts as meat, or only land animals (which adds chicken, turkey, etc) count as meat.

Fish are animals, just like land animals, but they just happen to live in water.  Hell, they're even vertebrates, which puts them a helluva lot closer to land animals we use for food than it puts them to invertebrates like squid or scallops.

They're animals.  Animals are made of meat, for fark's sake.
2013-09-05 08:31:27 AM  
2 votes:
At last I can agree with something someone from PETA says.  I've often found the most ridiculous hypocrisy in those that say, "I don't eat meat, except fish."  That makes you sound like an idiot.  An idiot that is not aware of what fish are made of.
2013-09-05 08:30:18 AM  
2 votes:
Vegans are murderers! They pollute the environment with all the fecal matter they use to raise the crops and the pesticides! The pesticides kill insects, small mammals, and birds! It causes cancers in humans and birth defects in babies! Down with vegans!
2013-09-05 08:26:22 AM  
2 votes:
"They are not swimming vegetables"

Of course not. If they were, I wouldn't be deep frying the suckers.
2013-09-05 08:03:19 AM  
2 votes:
Presumably he'd be OK with raping the fish, however.
2013-09-05 05:41:07 PM  
1 votes:

JungleBoogie: Bag-o-Nugs: My brother does not approve of hunting, but he fishes.  I've made the argument to him before that fishing is every bit as cruel if not more-so than hunting.  The typical kill when hunting is supposed to kill the animal with one shot.  The kill in fishing typically comes from the fish slowly suffocating inside an ice box.  Fish are ugly though.  It's easier to not care about them.  Me personally, I don't care about my meals' feelings, hopes, aspirations, or even species to an extent.  If it's tasty meat, then it's tasty meat.  I was given incisors to chew flesh, and I'm going to use them dammit!

[www.scientificamerican.com image 259x171][images.supportingservices.dk image 259x173][files.myopera.com image 259x194]

Humans don't really have much in the way of incisors canines.


Fixed that for you, and in fact, the short canines in humans is NOT a sign that we're herbivores (in fact, the gorilla--which you showed as one of your exhibits--IS a great ape that IS exclusively herbivorous, and has the long-ass intestinal tract and big gut to go with it).

Short canines in Homo and Australopithecus are actually thought to be a neotenous trait--basically, young apes don't have huge canine teeth, and the australopithecine/human line doesn't either.  The thing is, canines in great apes are as much a sexual trait (particularly with male hominin apes, and often used in territorial fighting for mates) as anything used for hunting down prey; sexual competition of the sort that dominates chimpanzee and gorilla cultures wasn't as strong in the sub-clade that led to humans.

Chimpanzees actually have longer canines than the great ape that is closest to the Most Recent Common Ancestor of chimpanzees, bonobos and australopithecines (good old Ardipithecus)--there's some evidence to suggest that the long canines in chimps are due to social aggression.  (Bonobos, which are not as aggressive physically as chimpanzees, tend to have smaller canines in the Ardipithecus range.  In this case it may well be a reversion to the old type, as bonobos speciated from chimpanzees after chimps split from ardipithecines.)

To throw even more of a monkey wrench (pun intended) into things--there IS a known line of australopithecines that DID pretty much go to gorilla-style herbivory (Paranthropus spp., which would look a hell of a lot like Sasquatch if you ever met one face to face).  They developed big jaws and big sagittal crests (for big jaw muscles) and big guts (we can tell from their pelvises)--rather different than the line of australopithecines that eventually led to Homo (and which we do have some good evidence indicating omnivory).

Even worse, even those apes that HAVE big canines tend to NOT use them for hunting.  Chimpanzees are the one ape known to actively hunt for prey (besides man)...and, well, chimpanzees, just like us, use TOOLS to do this (the use of thrown stones and sticks has been documented, and most recently chimpanzees have been documented making primitive wooden spears).  Interestingly, hunting with chimpanzees is closely connected to sexual courting behaviour--he who brings home the bacon brings home the lovin', so to speak.

If we go beyond primates...there are a number of other species that have large canines but are completely herbivorous--musk deer (a rather basal deer clade that are damn near sabertoothed--again, it's all a sexual thing, these are not meat-eating deer) are a fun example.

On the other end, the closest living sister group to primates (the rodent/lagomorph clade) has a number of species that engage in frank omnivory but do not have hueg canines (and in some cases lack canine teeth at all); rats, in particular, are quite opportunistic omnivores (and will happily take down birds and mice if they can get hold of them; hell, anything you can eat, they can eat, for the most part).

Hence one has to be VERY careful at trying to associate canine size with predatory behaviour, especially in omnivorous species.  A better guide is either a long intestinal tract (longer than that of humans, comparatively--think more "length of gorilla intestinal tract") and/or evidence of primary or secondary ruminant behaviour (either something chews its cud--like cows--or passes "cud stool" and eats that (lagomorphs).
2013-09-05 02:46:44 PM  
1 votes:

Lusebagage: If you've ever wondered why heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer are rampant in our culture, you only need look to a food thread on fark, where they vehemently defend that which is unhealthy to their body and soul like a chorus of computers lacking compunction.


I looked and looked for this video clip, but I could not find it. I am fairly certain it's from "Through the Wormhole", which is about the only documentary series I regularly watch anymore.

The scene opens. A scientist is sitting at a table in the middle of a field. The table is set for dinner. There are sheep grazing behind him. His kitchen help sets down a small serving of some type of greens on his plate. He begins to eat.

Morgan: (paraphrased, obviously) Our brains need energy to think and function. We get that energy from food. Sheep
get their energy grazing in the meadow. How much grass would it take to power a human brain?

The server returns to the table pulls the cover off of a plate containing about a three foot ball of grass.

Morgan: The time it would take for a human to eat this much to power their bodies is prohibitive. All humans would do is eat. How are we to get the protein needed to power our bodies?

The server returns yet a third time. This time with a lambchop.

oh yes...


Preach all you want my sanctimonious brother. I ain't buying your schtick.
2013-09-05 01:47:53 PM  
1 votes:

Lusebagage: As Cardinal John Henry Newman wrote "...there is something so dreadful, so satanic, in tormenting those who have never harmed us, and who cannot defend themselves, who are utterly in our power."


Sort of like how the Christian God did to Job?
2013-09-05 01:35:40 PM  
1 votes:

BetterMetalSnake: Why are vegans fine killing plants? A life is a life. What makes animal life so special that killing thousands of innocent broccoli can be done with some sort of moral superiority?

Life feeds on life.


This, este, etc.

You can't even legitimately use the "But plants don't feel pain" excuse, either--it's actually been found that plants (including a lot of the common food species like tomatoes and brassica-family veggies like lettuce and broccoli and the like) as well as a surprising number of trees DO "scream" chemically when injured or under predation, and other plants within the vicinity increase levels of natural insecticides and/or bitterants depending on the particular nature of the chemical "scream" and its intensity.  This is pretty much directly analgous to how insects, particularly eusocial insects, communicate threats.

(This isn't even touching on plants that have hydrodynamic analogues to muscle systems and try to actively either get away from humans (touch-me-nots) or interpret human touch as a prey response (Venus flytraps and a few other predatory plants).  Venus flytraps and other predatory plants even have an analogue to our touch sensory system (despite not having a clear analogue to the nervous system proper)...)

And nope, can't even get out of it with fungi either; if eating plants is dubious because they can chemically scream, fungi may be even MORE dubious as the fungi are the sister group to animals within the unikonts.  (Yes, it sounds weird as hell, but in the actual big division within eukaryotes--unikonts (which tend to use mitochondria to produce energy thanks to endosymbiosis between early unikont eukaryotes and rickettsia) and bikonts (which tend to use chloroplasts to produce energy thanks to the same kind of endosymbiosis early in their evolutionary history--only with cyanobacteria)--actually tends to place animals and fungi as a sister group, just as it tends to place most "green things" (not just plants but plant-like living things) together.)

We won't even get into how Jains are more moral in a sense than the average vegan if the whole worry is "killing a living thing".  (Jains, of note, will not eat anything with a live culture or which involves the killing of a live bacterial or fungal culture--out of a sense of ahimsa or not knowingly killing other living beings.  Yes, this means beer (actually, pretty much all alcohol) is out as well as yogurt, cheese, and Quorn is RIGHT the fark out.)

Interestingly, Jains do NOT seem to have issues with consuming milk or eggs as long as the critters involved are treated humanely (as it is not taking life from a living being).  They also won't eat root vegetables (because the harvesting of them will kill the plant), only harvest those parts of plants that will not kill or otherwise severely injure the plant, and pretty much are ovo-lacto-leaf-eating-fructivores in practice.

/not Jain
//more recognising that life feeds on life and I do in my own way thank the life that sacrificed itself so I can live
///not a fan of fundamentalism of any stripe, including militant vegans who don't realise that some folks may actually need to consume animal-origin foods to remain healthy (yes, it happens, there are folks who HAVE to eat meat or become seriously anemic who CANNOT absorb iron from supplements or the usual vegetable sources--everyone's metabolism is different)
2013-09-05 01:23:05 PM  
1 votes:

THX 1138: Animals are made of meat, for fark's sake.


Yes, an immediate trigger to the Bisson story
  

THX 1138: You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other.


I love that story, and this line still makes me laugh, even after more than twenty years
2013-09-05 01:17:46 PM  
1 votes:

Lee Jackson Beauregard: If he'd practiced that Buddhist life of nonviolence, perhaps he wouldn't be in the pokey.


Most people are in jail for drugs. So he probably smoked a joint once.
2013-09-05 01:02:49 PM  
1 votes:
Another command in Buddhism is to "eat what is given to you" (provided, of course, that it is actually edible). This prevents many itinerant monks from being strict vegetarians, because people (including other Buddhists) will sometimes offer them meat. One could argue that it is admirable for the man to protest, but by the dictates of his own faith, he can and in fact should still eat the fish.
2013-09-05 12:45:44 PM  
1 votes:
DEEP THOUGHTS WITH FISH
2013-09-05 11:09:59 AM  
1 votes:
I kinda like the old classification of 'meat, fish, poultry'.  They cook differently and taste way different after all.

None of these terms are scientific, so people up on their high horse saying it's all meat are just expressing an opinion, there's no "fact" behind it.  We use the term "meat" all the time to refer to the bulk of a piece of metal being machined, as in "make sure you leave enough meat under the hole so that it doesn't break when you put stress on it".
2013-09-05 11:07:13 AM  
1 votes:

Lady Indica: When we see 'flailing' or any type of stimulus response, we assume there has to be thought or discomfort behind it...but there doesn't. (Hot potato). And in much less complex creatures they simply do not have the brain capacity or structure to experience a lot of what we do...on any level.


There have been some recent studies suggesting that crabs feel pain, not just a direct response to the stimulus but a long-term change in behavior to avoid having it happen again.
2013-09-05 10:32:12 AM  
1 votes:

skozlaw: BetterMetalSnake: Why are vegans fine killing plants? A life is a life. What makes animal life so special that killing thousands of innocent broccoli can be done with some sort of moral superiority?

Are you aware that vegetables are not conscious? That is one of several key differences that makes animals and plants fundamentally different things?

/ okay... I'll grant you that there's a lot of evidence on the politics tab that suggests otherwise, but I promise you that despite appearances, those posters are not actually partially literate vegetables


When you get down to the lower levels, you can get some interesting questions about whether or not things like nematophagous fungi, nematodes, sea cucumbers, carnivorous plants, or even pole beans are capable of rudimentary consciousness. You can find plants and fungi capable of basic planning, multiple-member communication, or simple hunting. You can also find animals that function in an almost completely passive manner, and just filter nutrients from their immediate surroundings. They basically live like a mushroom or non-photosynthesizing plants.
2013-09-05 10:25:44 AM  
1 votes:
I've been vegan for years and never needed to eat fish.
It's really not that hard to avoid.

/I do eat cows tho. Since they eat grass they are practically a vegetable.
/God made them slow and delicious for a reason. Who am I to question his wisdom?
2013-09-05 09:43:21 AM  
1 votes:
I think he is within his rights to request a strictly vegetarian diet.

And I think the prison is within its rights to provide a basic vegetarian food bar supplemented with the appropriate vitamins and minerals needed to sustain human life.  That vegetarian food bar can be dry and tasteless, there is no guarantee of your special diet request being tasty or appetizing in any way whatsoever.  And if you get tired of it, then you can reconsider whether or not you want to continue your special food request.
2013-09-05 09:14:18 AM  
1 votes:
2013-09-05 09:13:49 AM  
1 votes:
A story about fish and PETA and no mention of the Sea Kittens? http://features.peta.org/PETASeaKittens/
Fark, I am disappoint. :(
2013-09-05 09:06:23 AM  
1 votes:

Grungehamster: I will say that's something that's always bugged me with the "fish can't feel pain" argument. Anyone who has ever caught a fish knows that it will fight and flail to get away with all it's strength, even if it's bleeding out and dying. That means they have to have some sort of rapid response system aimed at self preservation against dangerous stimuli. Sure it might not be experienced the same way as humans do, but "pain" has to exist in all animals to some degree simply because they have something driving them towards self-preservative behavior.


I struggle with this too, but that doesn't mean they're feeling it.

I'm a big fan of ants. In one of the many, many docs. I've watched on them, I saw some ants in Argentina being killed by fire. The cowboys there do controlled burns. The ants haven't evolved to deal with fire in any way. They simply can't. So they do not respond to it. They continue to work, as the flames are close...and then just shut down. There's no flailing or anything else.

When we see 'flailing' or any type of stimulus response, we assume there has to be thought or discomfort behind it...but there doesn't. (Hot potato). And in much less complex creatures they simply do not have the brain capacity or structure to experience a lot of what we do...on any level.

And with ants, there's no thought at all. They're little robots. They have programming to do what they do, and its very limited. Because of how they process data, the more in a colony you have, the 'smarter' the colony is by virtue of processing power.

Anyhoo the question of agency is pretty important because we (humans) do give a shiat if something is an agent. We can't 'hurt' a rock, so fark rocks we don't have people caring about what happens to rocks. No one cares if you kick a stone. We do give a shiat about things that have agency, and to what degree they have a mind. And there's a lot that is still debated. I personally tend to lean towards anthropomorphizing.
2013-09-05 09:03:22 AM  
1 votes:

starsrift: THX 1138: starsrift: If you're going to copypaste a short story from the 90's, you could at least credit the author, you heathen.

- by Terry Bisson,  Omni, April 1991.  Nominated for the Nebula Award.

Are we good now?

Yup. :)


Seems unnecessary since this is Fark and nothing is obscure here. But citations are always good I guess.
2013-09-05 08:56:24 AM  
1 votes:
24.media.tumblr.com
2013-09-05 08:55:42 AM  
1 votes:

THX 1138: starsrift: If you're going to copypaste a short story from the 90's, you could at least credit the author, you heathen.

- by Terry Bisson,  Omni, April 1991.  Nominated for the Nebula Award.

Are we good now?


Yup. :)
2013-09-05 08:51:39 AM  
1 votes:

starsrift: If you're going to copypaste a short story from the 90's, you could at least credit the author, you heathen.


- by Terry Bisson,  Omni, April 1991.  Nominated for the Nebula Award.

Are we good now?
2013-09-05 08:51:23 AM  
1 votes:
Clearly the warden is an old school Roman Catholic who believes fish is not meat!
2013-09-05 08:49:47 AM  
1 votes:

THX 1138: "They're made out of meat."


If you're going to copypaste a short story from the 90's, you could at least credit the author, you heathen.
2013-09-05 08:44:34 AM  
1 votes:

BetterMetalSnake: Life feeds on life.


These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust!

This is necessary.
2013-09-05 08:44:06 AM  
1 votes:

Grungehamster: I will say that's something that's always bugged me with the "fish can't feel pain" argument.


That's not unique to fish, it's a stupid thing that a lot of people, including a good chunk of biologists, said about all animals at least into the 90s. For a very long time the position was that animals don't feel pain because there's no positive proof that animals feel pain. It was even a "fact" that was used to teach veterinarians to actually ignore discomfort in animals they were treating. It didn't really fall out of favor as a guiding idea until around 20 years ago when people started to think "gee, maybe the odds are a lot better that they do than they don't since they have, you know, nervous systems and display behaviors that appear to be very much like what we know to be human discomfort".
2013-09-05 08:42:18 AM  
1 votes:
Why are vegans fine killing plants? A life is a life. What makes animal life so special that killing thousands of innocent broccoli can be done with some sort of moral superiority?

Life feeds on life.
2013-09-05 08:34:54 AM  
1 votes:

durbnpoisn: At last I can agree with something someone from PETA says.  I've often found the most ridiculous hypocrisy in those that say, "I don't eat meat, except fish."  That makes you sound like an idiot.  An idiot that is not aware of what fish are made of.


"I don't eat meat except for fish" is fine. It's means you do eat meat... fish meat.

It's people who claim they are vegetarians who still eat fish that are the idiots.
2013-09-05 08:32:27 AM  
1 votes:
dilbert.com
2013-09-05 08:28:24 AM  
1 votes:
If he'd practiced that Buddhist life of nonviolence, perhaps he wouldn't be in the pokey.
2013-09-05 08:26:36 AM  
1 votes:
While I've never considered the profound interests of fish, I do agree that they are a type of meat. Tasty, lean and healthy.
2013-09-05 08:22:21 AM  
1 votes:
21- So I guess I should become a vegetarian?
24 - No, everything living has a soul. Even spinach. You can't win.
 
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