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(USA Today)   NRA and ACLU join together in suit against NSA   (usatoday.com) divider line 32
    More: Hero, NRA, NSA, ACLU, gun registry, joint, telephone tapping, Jameel Jaffer, Jim Sensenbrenner  
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7487 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Sep 2013 at 4:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-09-05 02:48:44 AM  
5 votes:

Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.


This.
2nd Amendment rights are civil rights, same as the rest. Both organizations actively work to uphold civil rights.
Yes, the NRA is awful for having a ludicrous right-wing bias (in many cases endorsing R candidates with virtually identical gun rights stances as their D opponents), supporting right wing initiatives that have nothing to do with gun control (such as anti abortion efforts), and giving Nugent's stupid ass another pulpit to spew his idiocy from.
By the same token, the ACLU is known for having a very pronounced left wing political bias as well.
That being said, the NRA the only organization with power to affect the legislative process in the interest of preserving 2nd Amendment rights, which is the one aspect of the Bill of Rights that the ACLU is usually reluctant to fight for.
Ultimately, the ACLU and the NRA are counterparts in the same effort. I'm a card-carrying member of both.
The Second Amendment Foundation (which I'm also a member of) wins court battles, but that only goes so far when new anti-civil rights efforts take place every day, and the NRA together with the ACLU actively fight these infringements becoming possible in the first place.
2013-09-05 02:09:04 AM  
5 votes:

Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?


Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.
2013-09-05 12:34:41 AM  
4 votes:
Why not? Aren't they both trying to stop threats against our liberties both foreign and domestic?
2013-09-05 05:25:53 AM  
3 votes:

cc_rider: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?
Believe it or not, the ACLU has even defended that oxy-eating turd, too.
https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/aclu-asks-court-protect- co nfidentiality-rush-limbaughs-medical-records
Even assholes have rights.


"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H. L. Mencken
2013-09-05 08:41:39 AM  
2 votes:

MREbomber: Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.

This.
2nd Amendment rights are civil rights, same as the rest. Both organizations actively work to uphold civil rights.
Yes, the NRA is awful for having a ludicrous right-wing bias (in many cases endorsing R candidates with virtually identical gun rights stances as their D opponents), supporting right wing initiatives that have nothing to do with gun control (such as anti abortion efforts), and giving Nugent's stupid ass another pulpit to spew his idiocy from.
By the same token, the ACLU is known for having a very pronounced left wing political bias as well.
That being said, the NRA the only organization with power to affect the legislative process in the interest of preserving 2nd Amendment rights, which is the one aspect of the Bill of Rights that the ACLU is usually reluctant to fight for.
Ultimately, the ACLU and the NRA are counterparts in the same effort. I'm a card-carrying member of both.
The Second Amendment Foundation (which I'm also a member of) wins court battles, but that only goes so far when new anti-civil rights efforts take place every day, and the NRA together with the ACLU actively fight these infringements becoming possible in the first place.


When the ACLU states publicly that the Second Amendment guarantees individual rights, I will support them financially. I've told them so many times but they continue to beg me for money.
2013-09-05 07:38:50 AM  
2 votes:
"The defendants attempt to justify their practice of collecting the records of every telephone call made to or from the United States, including purely domestic calls, by claiming that Congress intended to authorize precisely such a program," Sensenbrenner's brief argues. "But Congress intended no such thing."

Then, I don't know, how about you change the law to remove any and all ambiguity, and make it perfectly farking clear what you intend!
2013-09-05 06:59:29 AM  
2 votes:

Nofun: "I wrote the bill, but it's not REALLY what I intended to write."


Um... No.

The legal term, "relevance", has a real meaning.

Records seized under the Patriot Act must be relevant to a terrorism investigation.

What the Obama administration is doing instead is ignoring the law and seizing everybody's records.
2013-09-05 06:40:42 AM  
2 votes:

Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.


You also have to realize that the Government has thrown out the Patriot Act's explicit requirement that the business records they seize be relevant to a terrorism investigation.

Given the fact that they are already ignoring the law, there is noting to prevent them from seizing the records of all gun sellers and creating a searchable database.

Exactly the sort of thing guaranteed to get the NRA interested in the fight.
2013-09-05 05:19:20 AM  
2 votes:
I wonder how long before some "anonymous tip" gets the leaders of both organizations arrested on suspicion of searching for child porn or aiding turrists?
2013-09-05 05:06:26 AM  
2 votes:
I'm a card carrying member of both the NRA and the ACLU.  Liberty!  Rights!  Beer!

/ I mostly just like to start stupid conversations.
// I'm not a smart man.
2013-09-05 04:44:24 AM  
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-09-05 12:57:02 PM  
1 votes:
Here you go:

img2u.info
We'll need this for the upcoming legal battle. Enjoy!
2013-09-05 10:25:05 AM  
1 votes:
As a card-carrying member of both, I find it funny how similar they are in their fund-raising efforts.

They're coming for our guns, give us money!
They're coming for our abortions, give us money!

Always with the dramatic mailings, too.  And the membership renewals.
2013-09-05 09:16:29 AM  
1 votes:
About damned time.

/fark the NSA
2013-09-05 09:11:23 AM  
1 votes:

Nofun: My point is that the law would appear to be too ambiguously written in this sense, and the guy who helped write it would appear to be trying to shift the blame to an agency taking advantage of the law.


I understand your point.

My point is that you are simply incorrect.

The Obama administration is interpreting this law in a way that ignores the actual text of the law.

The law as written is bad enough since it drops the legal standard from probable cause down to mere relevance.

However, the Obama administration can't even stick within the much lower relevance standard.
2013-09-05 08:52:19 AM  
1 votes:

KrispyKritter: Lawyers with guns.


Now just add money and methinks we've got the makings of a good song.
2013-09-05 08:43:18 AM  
1 votes:
dl.dropboxusercontent.com

/Would be nice if there was one giant group that supported all rights.
/Its tragic that much of the ACLU and NRA base don't realise they're fighting for the same ideal.
/Gun owners aren't a monolithic block anymore than ACLU supporters are.
2013-09-05 08:37:19 AM  
1 votes:

AngryDragon: dittybopper: dv-ous: AverageAmericanGuy: I don't see the NRA's dog in this fight, but the more the merrier.

The NRA is the only group that the NRA thinks should know where all the guns are.

The NRA doesn't want to know where the guns are, other than "everywhere".

[img689.imageshack.us image 379x214]


Ditto.
2013-09-05 08:35:33 AM  
1 votes:

dittybopper: dv-ous: AverageAmericanGuy: I don't see the NRA's dog in this fight, but the more the merrier.

The NRA is the only group that the NRA thinks should know where all the guns are.

The NRA doesn't want to know where the guns are, other than "everywhere".


img689.imageshack.us
2013-09-05 08:30:23 AM  
1 votes:

dv-ous: AverageAmericanGuy: I don't see the NRA's dog in this fight, but the more the merrier.

The NRA is the only group that the NRA thinks should know where all the guns are.


The NRA doesn't want to know where the guns are, other than "everywhere".
2013-09-05 08:25:16 AM  
1 votes:

Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?


The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Seriously though, it's about farking time these two were on the same side since they, supposedly, share a common goal
2013-09-05 08:15:29 AM  
1 votes:

GORDON: I'd send a dollar to his defense fund.


NSA heard that. You gonna get taped.
2013-09-05 07:55:42 AM  
1 votes:

sendtodave: Snowden is a traitor.


I hope he stays free for a long time.
2013-09-05 07:44:09 AM  
1 votes:

No Time To Explain: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

maybe Saddam rose from the grave?

/interestingly odd bedfellows
//waits and sees


It's not all that interesting or odd.  The NRA and ACLU have worked together before.

The only thing that has traditionally prevented that isn't the NRA, but the institutional belief in the ACLU  was that the Second Amendment didn't protect an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Even today, they are very uncomfortable with the idea of people having a substantive right to own guns.

What they tend to work with the NRA on, though, is privacy matters, and they've done it before.  For odd bedfellows, they should be comfortable with each other by now on stuff like this.
2013-09-05 07:26:33 AM  
1 votes:

Nofun: FTFA:

Republican Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin filed supporting briefs. Sensenbrenner is a co-author of the 2001 Patriot Act, which the NSA has cited as the basis of the surveillance.  "The defendants attempt to justify their practice of collecting the records of every telephone call made to or from the United States, including purely domestic calls, by claiming that Congress intended to authorize precisely such a program," Sensenbrenner's brief argues. "But Congress intended no such thing."

I read this as:

"I wrote the bill, but it's not REALLY what I intended to write."

Oh really?  That's how it works.  So next time I don't want to pay a client, I can go to court and say, "Well I sign a contract for these rates, but that's not REALLY what I intended to pay them."


Depends on the ambiguity of the wording on the contract. Or the bill.
2013-09-05 07:14:53 AM  
1 votes:

KeatingFive: BullBearMS: ...Given the fact that they are already ignoring the law,...

Nope, they're paying attention to a lousy law.


Even if used as written it is a lousy law.

However, the law does not allow you to seize business records that are not relevant to a terrorism investigation.

That is exactly what Obama is doing , though.

That's why Senators Wyden and Udall have been warning us for years of what Obama was doing.

For more than two years, a handful of Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee have warned that the government is secretly interpreting its surveillance powers under the Patriot Act in a way that would be alarming if the public - or even others in Congress - knew about it.

Under Obama's secret interpretation of the Patriot Act, he just ignores the legal meaning of the word "relevant".
2013-09-05 05:18:00 AM  
1 votes:
Maybe it's just the cider talking, but I wonder why nobody has brought the Third into play.

Yeah, the Third Amendment, the one everyone forgets about. The state has no right to demand - on pain of whatever may or may not have happened to the CEO of Qwest - that the state's routers be quarted in civilian datacenters without the consent of said civilians. Civilian owners of datacenters are free to co-operate with the government, and I'll even accept that the government has the right to do whatever it wants without the consent of the civilians to the bits of wire exiting the civilian-owned datacenter, but the government doesn't have a right to demand such co-operation.

A very drunk version of me might even suggest that CALEA is an infringement of the Third, but the drunken strict constructionist in me reminds me that the "LEA"s in CALEA are still technically civilians, and not soldiers, so that's going to get laughed out of the courts. NSA, on the other hand, is an arm of DoD, and a service provider that really wanted to play hardball (and which was willing to get shut down for non-cooperation regardless of the outcome of the court case) just might have a legal angle on this.

tl;dr: if I had a billion dollars or owned a startup that was threatened by this sort of thing and was already willing to shut down the company as a matter of principle (difficulty factor: that first bit about "if I had a billion dollars"), hiring some lawyers to mount a third-amendment challenge would be lulzy.
2013-09-05 04:56:31 AM  
1 votes:
Good. Could be a step toward sanity in this country. In other words, fark yeah!
2013-09-05 04:51:02 AM  
1 votes:

Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?


Believe it or not, the ACLU has even defended that oxy-eating turd, too.

https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/aclu-asks-court-protect- co nfidentiality-rush-limbaughs-medical-records

Even assholes have rights.
2013-09-05 04:47:11 AM  
1 votes:
If you re-arrange the letters you can create one group: ANAL CRU

/got nothing
2013-09-05 04:36:45 AM  
1 votes:
I don't see the NRA's dog in this fight, but the more the merrier.
2013-09-05 12:44:51 AM  
1 votes:
I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?
 
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