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(USA Today)   NRA and ACLU join together in suit against NSA   (usatoday.com) divider line 90
    More: Hero, NRA, NSA, ACLU, gun registry, joint, telephone tapping, Jameel Jaffer, Jim Sensenbrenner  
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7469 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Sep 2013 at 4:34 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-05 08:41:11 AM

Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?


When is he not?
 
2013-09-05 08:41:39 AM

MREbomber: Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.

This.
2nd Amendment rights are civil rights, same as the rest. Both organizations actively work to uphold civil rights.
Yes, the NRA is awful for having a ludicrous right-wing bias (in many cases endorsing R candidates with virtually identical gun rights stances as their D opponents), supporting right wing initiatives that have nothing to do with gun control (such as anti abortion efforts), and giving Nugent's stupid ass another pulpit to spew his idiocy from.
By the same token, the ACLU is known for having a very pronounced left wing political bias as well.
That being said, the NRA the only organization with power to affect the legislative process in the interest of preserving 2nd Amendment rights, which is the one aspect of the Bill of Rights that the ACLU is usually reluctant to fight for.
Ultimately, the ACLU and the NRA are counterparts in the same effort. I'm a card-carrying member of both.
The Second Amendment Foundation (which I'm also a member of) wins court battles, but that only goes so far when new anti-civil rights efforts take place every day, and the NRA together with the ACLU actively fight these infringements becoming possible in the first place.


When the ACLU states publicly that the Second Amendment guarantees individual rights, I will support them financially. I've told them so many times but they continue to beg me for money.
 
2013-09-05 08:41:44 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: sendtodave: Snowden is a traitor.

Did he break laws, sure yes he did.

But sometimes one must work outside the law to shame it's existence or inadequacy.


That's the joke.
 
2013-09-05 08:43:18 AM
dl.dropboxusercontent.com

/Would be nice if there was one giant group that supported all rights.
/Its tragic that much of the ACLU and NRA base don't realise they're fighting for the same ideal.
/Gun owners aren't a monolithic block anymore than ACLU supporters are.
 
2013-09-05 08:49:34 AM

BullBearMS: Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.

You also have to realize that the Government has thrown out the Patriot Act's explicit requirement that the business records they seize be relevant to a terrorism investigation.

Given the fact that they are already ignoring the law, there is noting to prevent them from seizing the records of all gun sellers and creating a searchable database.

Exactly the sort of thing guaranteed to get the NRA interested in the fight.


IIRC previous privacy lawsuits over secret spying got tossed due to standing - the people bringing suit couldn't prove they'd been harmed - because secret program is secret - so they were found to have no standing to bring the action. It seems this is similar - is there any evidence that the gov. is creating such a list? Just because they have the ability to do something illegal, doesn't mean they are actually
doing it (meaning specifically the alleged gun registry ).
 
2013-09-05 08:52:19 AM

KrispyKritter: Lawyers with guns.


Now just add money and methinks we've got the makings of a good song.
 
2013-09-05 08:57:30 AM
MREbomber: Fark It: Brontes: I, uh, wow.  Has the Middle East frozen over?  Is Limbaugh flying?

Believe it or not, the NRA and ACLU have a working relationship when it comes to court battles.  There is significant overlap between the 2nd and 4th Amendment, as well as privacy and HIPAA concerns, that leads to the ACLU and NRA jumping on board each others ships when it comes to certain gun legislation.

This.
2nd Amendment rights are civil rights, same as the rest. Both organizations actively work to uphold civil rights.
Yes, the NRA is awful for having a ludicrous right-wing bias (in many cases endorsing R candidates with virtually identical gun rights stances as their D opponents), supporting right wing initiatives that have nothing to do with gun control (such as anti abortion efforts), and giving Nugent's stupid ass another pulpit to spew his idiocy from.
By the same token, the ACLU is known for having a very pronounced left wing political bias as well.
That being said, the NRA the only organization with power Money to affect the legislative process in the interest of preserving 2nd Amendment rights, which is the one aspect of the Bill of Rights that the ACLU is usually reluctant to fight for.
Ultimately, the ACLU and the NRA are counterparts in the same effort. I'm a card-carrying member of both.
The Second Amendment Foundation (which I'm also a member of) wins court battles, but that only goes so far when new anti-civil rights efforts take place every day, and the NRA together with the ACLU actively fight these infringements becoming possible in the first place.

better more truthier -  because after all, at a certain point, isn't that what money is all about?  Power?
Not quibbling with alliances either.  Struggles make odd bedfellows.  The IRA and the Nazi party is one that comes to mind.
 
2013-09-05 09:11:23 AM

Nofun: My point is that the law would appear to be too ambiguously written in this sense, and the guy who helped write it would appear to be trying to shift the blame to an agency taking advantage of the law.


I understand your point.

My point is that you are simply incorrect.

The Obama administration is interpreting this law in a way that ignores the actual text of the law.

The law as written is bad enough since it drops the legal standard from probable cause down to mere relevance.

However, the Obama administration can't even stick within the much lower relevance standard.
 
2013-09-05 09:16:29 AM
About damned time.

/fark the NSA
 
2013-09-05 09:31:31 AM

Persnickety: KrispyKritter: Lawyers with guns.

Now just add money and methinks we've got the makings of a good song.


To bring this full circle, read the bottom line:

img31.imageshack.us

/Strip ciphers FTW.
 
2013-09-05 09:37:07 AM
Looked up the salaries of the CEOs of both. Guess which one, at $841,000 is paid more than the other $0 (although other affiliates do kick in $320K).?
 
2013-09-05 09:57:30 AM

BitwiseShift: Looked up the salaries of the CEOs of both. Guess which one, at $841,000 is paid more than the other $0 (although other affiliates do kick in $320K).?


And this is significant how?
 
2013-09-05 10:01:43 AM
At the risk of being "that guy", in 2001, I was strongly against the Patriot Act for this exact reason. Guess I'm saying...

wait for it...

I TOLD YOU SO
 
2013-09-05 10:11:17 AM

Krumet: "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
-H. L. Mencken


I had never heard that one before. Love it.
 
2013-09-05 10:25:05 AM
As a card-carrying member of both, I find it funny how similar they are in their fund-raising efforts.

They're coming for our guns, give us money!
They're coming for our abortions, give us money!

Always with the dramatic mailings, too.  And the membership renewals.
 
2013-09-05 10:34:33 AM

jso2897: It's moot anyway - the ACLU never works to restrict or constrict ANY right, so any gun owner who is hostile to them is being led.
Different people need to do different work - if everybody tried to do the same job, the employment lines would be really long


No, but they will choose not to fight for rights they don't agree with - specifically individual gun ownership.
 
2013-09-05 10:38:03 AM

Girl Sailor: At the risk of being "that guy", in 2001, I was strongly against the Patriot Act for this exact reason. Guess I'm saying...

wait for it...

I TOLD YOU SO


Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the ONLY person in the whole country who had any reservations about that law. Good call. If only the rest of us had your foresight....
 
2013-09-05 10:39:13 AM
Everyone involved in the suit is now on the no-fly list and over 1,000 other watch lists...For them, the hills really do have eyes now.
 
2013-09-05 10:40:05 AM
NRACULA?

LUCA RAN

LUNA CAR

LUNAR AC

AL U NARC
 
2013-09-05 10:41:19 AM

mod3072: Girl Sailor: At the risk of being "that guy", in 2001, I was strongly against the Patriot Act for this exact reason. Guess I'm saying...

wait for it...

I TOLD YOU SO

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the ONLY person in the whole country who had any reservations about that law. Good call. If only the rest of us had your foresight....


Yet here we are talking about the fallout from it. I was also against the Iraq war if it counts. So poop on you.
 
2013-09-05 11:31:56 AM
When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.
 
2013-09-05 11:41:01 AM

Oldiron_79: When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.


If you haven't pissed anyone off you aren't trying.
 
2013-09-05 11:42:26 AM
the NRA is awful for having a ludicrous right-wing bias
the ACLU is known for having a very pronounced left wing political bias


Humm, I wonder if he knows his bias is showing as well?
 
2013-09-05 11:52:31 AM

R.A.Danny: Oldiron_79: When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.

If you haven't pissed anyone off you aren't trying.


So you support the actions of the Reichssicherheitsdienst, er um I mean NSA?
 
2013-09-05 11:54:07 AM

Nofun: FTFA:

Republican Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin filed supporting briefs. Sensenbrenner is a co-author of the 2001 Patriot Act, which the NSA has cited as the basis of the surveillance.  "The defendants attempt to justify their practice of collecting the records of every telephone call made to or from the United States, including purely domestic calls, by claiming that Congress intended to authorize precisely such a program," Sensenbrenner's brief argues. "But Congress intended no such thing."

I read this as:

"I wrote the bill, but it's not REALLY what I intended to write."

Oh really?  That's how it works.  So next time I don't want to pay a client, I can go to court and say, "Well I sign a contract for these rates, but that's not REALLY what I intended to pay them."


Why don't you actually read the entire portion of the Patriot Act that Sensenbrenner is referring to. It outright says that the government cannot spy on its own citizens domestically.
Just because the last and the current administrations have badly perverted the law and greatly overstepped its authority doesn't mean that Sensenbrenner didn't know what he wrote.

Do you give Obama and the Dems the same criticism with Obamacare when he keeps delaying and rewriting the law through executive order?
 
2013-09-05 11:54:49 AM

Oldiron_79: R.A.Danny: Oldiron_79: When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.

If you haven't pissed anyone off you aren't trying.

So you support the actions of the Reichssicherheitsdienst, er um I mean NSA?


Why would anything I have said cause you to make that assumption? You can piss people off by doing bad things, and you can piss people off by doing good things. If you aren't pissing anyone off you aren't doing anything though.
 
2013-09-05 11:55:49 AM
It's actually sad that the NRA has to jump in on this given that it means the ACLU continues to support all of our civil liberties except the 2nd amendment. Glad that they're working together, just sad that they have to do so.
 
2013-09-05 12:13:48 PM
First read that as. NHRA and ACLU join together in suit against NSA
Still trying to figure that out.
 
2013-09-05 12:19:27 PM
This is a real tragedy because the NSA is the only government agency that really listens to the people.
 
2013-09-05 12:29:25 PM

Oldiron_79: R.A.Danny: Oldiron_79: When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.

If you haven't pissed anyone off you aren't trying.

So you support the actions of the Reichssicherheitsdienst, er um I mean NSA?


Interestingly enough, there were a multitude of SIGINT/eavesdropping organizations in Nazi Germany, with lots of duplication of effort and stepping on of toes.  Apparently, Hitler liked it that way.
 
2013-09-05 12:31:49 PM
I have a mental clip of giant letters forming some kind of super-alpha Voltron. Keep adding letters to beat down the NSA.
 
2013-09-05 12:57:02 PM
Here you go:

img2u.info
We'll need this for the upcoming legal battle. Enjoy!
 
2013-09-05 01:11:23 PM

dittybopper: Oldiron_79: R.A.Danny: Oldiron_79: When you are doing shiat bad enough to create strange bedfellows to oppose you maybe the problem is with YOU.

If you haven't pissed anyone off you aren't trying.

So you support the actions of the Reichssicherheitsdienst, er um I mean NSA?

Interestingly enough, there were a multitude of SIGINT/eavesdropping organizations in Nazi Germany, with lots of duplication of effort and stepping on of toes.  Apparently, Hitler liked it that way.


When you're running a totalitarian state, I'd imagine it pays to have multiple groups spying on each other. Wouldn't want one organization getting all the dirt without having dirt on them as well. Plus, you know, paranoia.
 
2013-09-05 01:14:40 PM

Molavian: As a card-carrying member of both, I find it funny how similar they are in their fund-raising efforts.

They're coming for our guns, give us money!
They're coming for our abortions, give us money!

Always with the dramatic mailings, too.  And the membership renewals.


To be fair State legislatures all over the country really are "coming for your abortions"
 
2013-09-05 01:18:21 PM
I am firmly convinced that Congress, a large majority of whom are lawyers, write vague laws for the purpose of supporting some lawyer full time employment program.
Then again, even the simplest laws get reinterpreted.
"Thou shall not kill"
"What if I'm defending my life or my families?"
"When, then you can kill."
"What if my country goes to war?"
"When, then you can kill."
What if a person commits a heinous crime?"
"When, then you can kill."
etc.
 
2013-09-05 01:45:36 PM

Girl Sailor: mod3072: Girl Sailor: At the risk of being "that guy", in 2001, I was strongly against the Patriot Act for this exact reason. Guess I'm saying...

wait for it...

I TOLD YOU SO

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the ONLY person in the whole country who had any reservations about that law. Good call. If only the rest of us had your foresight....

Yet here we are talking about the fallout from it. I was also against the Iraq war if it counts. So poop on you.


I'm not really into the poop thing, but I do have a few other ideas....
 
2013-09-05 03:24:21 PM

simplicimus: I am firmly convinced that Congress, a large majority of whom are lawyers, write vague laws for the purpose of supporting some lawyer full time employment program.
Then again, even the simplest laws get reinterpreted.
"Thou shall not kill"
"What if I'm defending my life or my families?"
"When, then you can kill."
"What if my country goes to war?"
"When, then you can kill."
What if a person commits a heinous crime?"
"When, then you can kill."
etc.


Not a Christian, but I always thought that that was "thou shalt not murder", where everything you just suggested wraps around into killing, but not murdering.
 
2013-09-05 04:04:47 PM
 
2013-09-05 04:13:28 PM

simplicimus: I am firmly convinced that Congress, a large majority of whom are lawyers, write vague laws for the purpose of supporting some lawyer full time employment program.
Then again, even the simplest laws get reinterpreted.
"Thou shall not kill"
"What if I'm defending my life or my families?"
"When, then you can kill."
"What if my country goes to war?"
"When, then you can kill."
What if a person commits a heinous crime?"
"When, then you can kill."
etc.


I always heard the the the 'kill' part of that commandment has been mistranslated for eons.
It should say 'murder' not 'kill'.
 
2013-09-05 05:12:32 PM

VeggieDelight: thamike: VeggieDelight: I wonder how long before some "anonymous tip" gets the leaders of both organizations arrested on suspicion of searching for child porn or aiding turrists?

How long has it been up until now?  Multiply that by two and then punch yourself in the dick.

Ooh! So insightful!


You haven't written anything that warrants more than ridicule.  Such is life.
 
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