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(Slate)   It turns out that transforming schools into money-making ventures may not be in the best interest of the children   (slate.com) divider line 147
    More: Sad, charter schools, money-making, No Child Left Behind Act, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Diane Ravitch, american school system, National Assessment of Educational Progress, Lawrence Katz  
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4206 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Sep 2013 at 5:37 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-04 04:08:13 PM
YOU DON'T SAY!
 
2013-09-04 04:22:49 PM
Political propaganda in the school is only acceptable when its our own propaganda
 
2013-09-04 04:50:48 PM

cman: Political propaganda in the school is only acceptable when its our own propaganda


What exactly do you mean by that? I'm curious.
 
2013-09-04 05:26:32 PM

Cagey B: cman: Political propaganda in the school is only acceptable when its our own propaganda

What exactly do you mean by that? I'm curious.


Hopefully he's commenting on things like what the Texas GOP were trying to do to history class.
 
2013-09-04 05:40:00 PM
LIEberal propaganda!  The market (pbuh) solves EVERY problem - but only if all regulation is removed.
 
2013-09-04 05:40:28 PM
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-09-04 05:41:54 PM
State run and non-profit universities are better than for-profit universities.

State run k-1 schools are the devil.
 
2013-09-04 05:42:18 PM
I've seen tons of charter schools as poorly managed as any public school.

To think that one is better than the other just because it's a charter school is absurd and the reason why more and more shady people are wanting to start their own charter schools.

Florida is real bad with this.
 
2013-09-04 05:43:02 PM

Lionel Mandrake: LIEberal propaganda!  The market (pbuh) solves EVERY problem - but only if all regulation is removed.


Not all the regulations though. Regulations protecting the public interest are bad while regulations limiting market entry are good.
 
2013-09-04 05:44:53 PM
But it worked so well for prisons!
 
2013-09-04 05:45:08 PM

meat0918: Cagey B: cman: Political propaganda in the school is only acceptable when its our own propaganda

What exactly do you mean by that? I'm curious.

Hopefully he's commenting on things like what the Texas GOP were trying to do to history class.


I was intentionally vague
 
2013-09-04 05:45:11 PM
 
2013-09-04 05:45:26 PM
Yeah.  Whatever happened to the good old fashion curriculum which focused on training to pass standardized tests.  At least the school comes out smelling like a rose when it's all said and done.
 
2013-09-04 05:46:15 PM

Mrtraveler01: I've seen tons of charter schools as poorly managed as any public school.

To think that one is better than the other just because it's a charter school is absurd and the reason why more and more shady people are wanting to start their own charter schools.

Florida is real bad with this.


Louisiana too.
 
2013-09-04 05:48:18 PM
We should run schools like business? How many business fail every year?

So we want that many schools failing?

Somethings don't work well for competitive businesses, schools are one of them.
 
2013-09-04 05:48:50 PM
The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.
 
2013-09-04 05:48:54 PM

Cagey B: cman: Political propaganda in the school is only acceptable when its our own propaganda

What exactly do you mean by that? I'm curious.


"Look at me! Everyone look at me!"
 
Ant
2013-09-04 05:49:44 PM
But the free market is infallible!!!!
 
2013-09-04 05:49:48 PM
mcreadyblue:
State run k-1 schools are the devil.

Why?
 
2013-09-04 05:50:05 PM
I read the headline as, "money-making vultures," and strangely, it still makes sense.
 
2013-09-04 05:50:28 PM
A local charter school asked me to come judge their science fair. I spent one weekend morning there, and by the end I was repulsed.

The thing that really stuck out to me was this guy who walked around selling candy. Now, I'm not naive. I know that people sell candy to kids all the time, and they do at school as well, but this guy was a master. He walked up and down the hallways, whooping at kids, goading them. He would shove it in their faces, not once, but three or four times. He got kids to go ask their parents for money. He did this virtually all day (from 9:00 to 12:00), and he didn't have a single healthy option, so some kids literally had three or four candy bars before lunch. It felt far more exploitative than it felt like a service.

The teachers were pathetic. They got paid about 30% less than my wife, who works in the public school system, but were contracted for about 20% more time. They are required to sponsor two after-school clubs, and they have remedial lessons every Saturday. The result was very high turnover, and a very prevalent attitude of "I'll do this for a few years until kids, so screw it." I think they might have had 1 out of 20 teachers who were above the age of 30.

They started their 'business' in about 2007, which was perfect timing to take advantage of a huge glut of unemployed teachers in our local market.
 
2013-09-04 05:51:36 PM

lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.


You've never heard of Liberty University, Bob Jones University, or Oral Roberts University, have you?

They have a separate college and university system with their own bogus accreditation schemes.  They've achieved a nearly impenetrable echo chamber.
 
2013-09-04 05:52:50 PM

lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.


All species have a biological drive to reproduce.  This is just the Tea Party's way of reproducing new Tea Partiers, since nobody will have sex with them.
 
2013-09-04 05:53:12 PM

lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.


They will just found their own universities in the mold of Liberty University and handout degrees to anyone who hates gays enough.
 
Ant
2013-09-04 05:53:56 PM

meat0918: They have a separate college and university system with their own bogus accreditation schemes.


It's a parallel universe.
 
2013-09-04 05:55:01 PM

Mrtraveler01: I've seen tons of charter schools as poorly managed as any public school.


And the only way to prevent that is to regulate them to the point they might as well be public schools.
 
2013-09-04 05:55:08 PM

Mrtraveler01: I've seen tons of charter schools as poorly managed as any public school.


Anecdotes are just anecdotes, but I've never seen a public school run as poorly as some of the charter schools I've seen.

Even in the really bad public schools, the attitude is "Educate the students", but they just fail for various reasons. In the charter schools the attitude is "cost controls".

A friend of mine, no shiat, had to teach her first week of class with no desks and I think the first month with no books. Meanwhile, the school takes the parent's money as though they were a normally functioning school.
 
2013-09-04 05:56:24 PM
The point of charter schools is to waste tax dollars without all that pesky bureaucracy of the public school system.

There's a reason the usual corrupt morons that run most local school districts like the idea of charter schools. Means they can spend the money on whatever the hell they wan without having to justify it to anyone.

You want to know why public education in this country sucks? Graft and corruption and managerial incompetence. School boards are a wasteland of failed "middle-managers" that couldn't get a job doing anything requiring any ability.

Christ, don't get me started.
 
2013-09-04 05:56:31 PM

12349876: Mrtraveler01: I've seen tons of charter schools as poorly managed as any public school.

And the only way to prevent that is to regulate them to the point they might as well be public schools.


And for the religious schools, I would think (not a lawyer) it would amount to excessive entanglement with religion.

Better to just not have vouchers leeching money from the education budget.
 
2013-09-04 05:58:21 PM

clowncar on fire: Yeah.  Whatever happened to the good old fashion curriculum which focused on training to pass standardized tests.  At least the school comes out smelling like a rose when it's all said and done.


Nothing like testing out at a "post high school level" in all subjects when you're only in 8th grade.
 
2013-09-04 05:58:54 PM

FloydA: mcreadyblue:
State run k-1 schools are the devil.

Why?


Local school boards make Congress look like a MENSA convention.
 
2013-09-04 05:59:26 PM

meat0918: lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.

You've never heard of Liberty University, Bob Jones University, or Oral Roberts University, have you?

They have a separate college and university system with their own bogus accreditation schemes.  They've achieved a nearly impenetrable echo chamber.


Oral Roberts has state accredited degrees. Which is a requirement to get board certified as a doctor. I bet dollars to donuts that liberty and jones do too. That isn't to say that they don't offer other degrees, but I am pretty sure you can't offer bachlors, masters, and phds to people if the degree isn't accredited by the state. I know liberty (if I remember right) was in a tussel with texas state when the couldn't get a bachelor in science of creationism past them.
 
2013-09-04 05:59:53 PM
I wasn't aware that people in charge actually cared about the children anymore, unless of course they were still inside a womb.
 
2013-09-04 06:00:29 PM
i255.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-04 06:01:10 PM

max_pooper: They will just found their own universities in the mold of Liberty University and handout degrees to anyone who hates gays enough.


But it won't be a bachlors, masters or phd. Because doing so without accreditation is fraud.
 
2013-09-04 06:02:19 PM
Or insurance. Or prisons.
 
2013-09-04 06:06:56 PM

realmolo: The point of charter schools is to waste tax dollars without all that pesky bureaucracy of the public school system.

There's a reason the usual corrupt morons that run most local school districts like the idea of charter schools. Means they can spend the money on whatever the hell they wan without having to justify it to anyone.

You want to know why public education in this country sucks? Graft and corruption and managerial incompetence. School boards are a wasteland of failed "middle-managers" that couldn't get a job doing anything requiring any ability.

Christ, don't get me started.


Surely the market will sort this out? :)
 
2013-09-04 06:14:53 PM

lockers:  I am pretty sure you can't offer bachlors, masters, and phds to people if the degree isn't accredited by the state.


Nope.  You can buy a PhD in Divinity Studies online from Universal Life Church for about 30 bucks; you'll be a Doctor in just a few clicks of the mouse.

You can offer any degrees you like.  A degree from an unaccredited institution isn't worth much, because nobody will accept it as proof that you know what you're doing, but it's perfectly legal to offer them.

If I declared myself a university and filled out the proper paperwork and business licences, I could issue degrees too.
 
2013-09-04 06:16:07 PM

regindyn: FloydA: mcreadyblue:
State run k-1 schools are the devil.

Why?

Local school boards make Congress look like a MENSA convention.


Fat, unwashed, pimply, and covered in cheeto dust?
 
2013-09-04 06:16:14 PM

lockers: meat0918: lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.

You've never heard of Liberty University, Bob Jones University, or Oral Roberts University, have you?

They have a separate college and university system with their own bogus accreditation schemes.  They've achieved a nearly impenetrable echo chamber.

Oral Roberts has state accredited degrees. Which is a requirement to get board certified as a doctor. I bet dollars to donuts that liberty and jones do too. That isn't to say that they don't offer other degrees, but I am pretty sure you can't offer bachlors, masters, and phds to people if the degree isn't accredited by the state. I know liberty (if I remember right) was in a tussel with texas state when the couldn't get a bachelor in science of creationism past them.


I was under the impression that, at least for a while, those with an educational degree with a focus on science from one of those universities was near guaranteed to have learned to teach creationism as well as enough evolution to pass any state teacher's accreditation.

I assume that accreditation standards mostly test what knowledge you must demonstrate you have in order to pass, not bar certain knowledge.

So they teach them enough evolution to "pass the test", but in their hearts they're still creationists.
 
2013-09-04 06:18:32 PM
How does lubienski account for the charter schools in newark nj?

They get picked by lottery and none of the students fall into the well to do category....
 
2013-09-04 06:21:29 PM

Giltric: How does lubienski account for the charter schools in newark nj?

They get picked by lottery and none of the students fall into the well to do category....


I don't think anyone is saying charter schools can never do well. It's just that there's nothing in place to make sure they are doing well, and a significant amount of the time no one cares because profit, not education, is the point of the exercise.
 
2013-09-04 06:24:44 PM

meat0918: lockers: meat0918: lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.

You've never heard of Liberty University, Bob Jones University, or Oral Roberts University, have you?

They have a separate college and university system with their own bogus accreditation schemes.  They've achieved a nearly impenetrable echo chamber.

Oral Roberts has state accredited degrees. Which is a requirement to get board certified as a doctor. I bet dollars to donuts that liberty and jones do too. That isn't to say that they don't offer other degrees, but I am pretty sure you can't offer bachlors, masters, and phds to people if the degree isn't accredited by the state. I know liberty (if I remember right) was in a tussel with texas state when the couldn't get a bachelor in science of creationism past them.

I was under the impression that, at least for a while, those with an educational degree with a focus on science from one of those universities was near guaranteed to have learned to teach creationism as well as enough evolution to pass any state teacher's accreditation.

I assume that accreditation standards mostly test what knowledge you must demonstrate you have in order to pass, not bar certain knowledge.

So they teach them enough evolution to "pass the test", but in their hearts they're still creationists.


I believe that is absolutely the case. I avoid Oral Roberts doctors for exactly that reason. That and they always ask me if I would like to pray.
 
2013-09-04 06:25:27 PM

Giltric: How does lubienski account for the charter schools in newark nj?

They get picked by lottery and none of the students fall into the well to do category....


Graphs and stuff
 
2013-09-04 06:26:18 PM

lockers: The point of vouchers isn't that the kids will get a better education, it is that they will get a religious education on the public's dime. The good thing will be when a generation of ill educated wing nuts figure out they are unable to get in university, let alone complete a degree. The butthurt will be historic.


That's not the point of the push for vouchers in South Carolina.

Here's, it's just straight-up greed.  People who can already afford, and already are, sending their kids to private schools want a tax break for doing so.  But as for parent's who can't already afford to do so - well, paying $1500 less on state taxes - if they paid that much to begin with - isn't going to be the cover the cost of tuition.
 
2013-09-04 06:27:14 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Giltric: How does lubienski account for the charter schools in newark nj?

They get picked by lottery and none of the students fall into the well to do category....

I don't think anyone is saying charter schools can never do well. It's just that there's nothing in place to make sure they are doing well, and a significant amount of the time no one cares because profit, not education, is the point of the exercise.


Case in point

http://bendoregonnews.blogspot.com/2010/04/failure-of-charter-school s. html

"The charter schools in Sisters struggled anyway to maintain enrollment and therefore ran out of money to operate. The Sisters Early College Academy failed to make tuition payments to colleges on behalf of its students. It owes them more $10,000.
The Academy of Fine Arts was a bogus concept to begin with because the Sisters schools do an adequate job of teaching art. It was a glorified coloring school where the students learned little in the core subjects. When they returned to the public schools, they were way behind their peers. "
 
2013-09-04 06:29:52 PM
Solly, no clickee Slate linky.
 
2013-09-04 06:30:16 PM
Three new books decimate the case for charter schools and vouchers.

So those books destroyed one in ten cases for charter schools? Interesting.
 
2013-09-04 06:30:36 PM

Giltric: How does lubienski account for the charter schools in newark nj?

They get picked by lottery and none of the students fall into the well to do category....


1) FTA:
In fact, the public school students actually fare better on the NAEP math test than their private and charter school counterparts with similar socio-economic backgrounds.

2) Obviously there are going to be exceptions to the rule when the sample size is so big on a nationwide basis.  It will detect overall trends though.

3) The lottery is a level of regulation not seen in many other places and many on the pro voucher/charter/private side would disapprove.
 
2013-09-04 06:30:50 PM
If you REALLY want to fix public schools, you start by dissolving local school boards. When parents get into pissing contests with administrators (who themselves aren't perfect) because Little Bobby failed a class due the teacher being evil (rather than Little Bobby being a window-licker), everyone suffers. In some cases, the school boards approve the budget, and sports get a disproportionate share of extra curricular funding. Make EVERY organization be self-sustaining (the debate teams, foreign language clubs, and JROTC have to do it), and spend a little goddamn money on support staff. A good cafeteria crew will cost a little more, but the efficiency/food savings/better food will be worth it.

School boards are where the local Napoleons go to start an empire.
 
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