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(The Week)   Your company offers unlimited vacation time. Do you take it? Are you sure?   (theweek.com) divider line 44
    More: Interesting, vacation time, Boston magazine, quartz  
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1299 clicks; posted to FarkUs » on 04 Sep 2013 at 9:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-04 08:38:21 AM  
A former boss of mine did away with time sheets. He said "In the long run I get more than 40 hours a week out of each of you anyway, so, as long as the work is done and there's someone always around to keep the lights on, keep track of your own time."

Of course, he was also a sociopath who required 24/7 blackberry access and once demanded a conference call at 11AM on Thanksgiving morning, so...
 
2013-09-04 08:42:48 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: A former boss of mine did away with time sheets. He said "In the long run I get more than 40 hours a week out of each of you anyway, so, as long as the work is done and there's someone always around to keep the lights on, keep track of your own time."

Of course, he was also a sociopath who required 24/7 blackberry access and once demanded a conference call at 11AM on Thanksgiving morning, so...


I think time sheets are kind of necessary evil.  Not for paying you, but for me bidding the next job.  The more data I have on how long it actually takes you to do a job the more accurate quote I can give a customer.
 
2013-09-04 08:57:35 AM  
Everyone gets four weeks here, some a week more. Seems about right.
 
2013-09-04 09:18:02 AM  
Didn't we just have a thread about this last week?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-09-04 09:18:39 AM  
I had an employer which offered vague vacation time, as much as your manager allowed with a suggestion of about three weeks a year as a starting point. I think one state's branch office had to go with a strict limit due to labor laws. I did not last long enough to abuse the system.
 
2013-09-04 09:19:37 AM  
 
2013-09-04 09:26:47 AM  
The elephant in the room that the article barely touched directly was that you can show up at the office any amount you want, but you still have to get X amount of work done. Procrastinate until 2 days before the project is due, then crank out 10,000 lines of code in that time. If you can do that, you should probably start your own consulting firm and bid the projects as fixed cost.
 
2013-09-04 09:39:45 AM  
FTA:

There is also no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one comes to work naked.


*checks for clothing policy*


Well, I'll be damned.

SCREW YOU, PANTS!
 
2013-09-04 09:42:09 AM  

Rev.K: FTA:

There is also no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one comes to work naked.


*checks for clothing policy*


Well, I'll be damned.

SCREW YOU, PANTS!


Sad, my company has a dress code policy that includes pants.
 
2013-09-04 09:43:50 AM  
Interesting idea and I think in some cases it may even work.

Then again, when I think about instituting that type of policy here, it doesn't take much foresight to see that the system would pretty quickly break down. Summer holidays would be the most prized and a lot of people would be competing to take that time off, but someone has to be here to keep things going, so it would quickly deteriorate into finger-pointing over who had taken more vacation last year or up to that point of the year.

Basically, there has to be some sort of base standard that everyone can agree to.
 
2013-09-04 09:58:55 AM  

EvilEgg: Rev.K: FTA:

There is also no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one comes to work naked.


*checks for clothing policy*


Well, I'll be damned.

SCREW YOU, PANTS!

Sad, my company has a dress code policy that includes pants.


Here the men's code specifies pants and no jeans.
The women's code allows pants and skirts and no jeans.

In hot weather, since I can't wear shorts, I wonder if skirts would be more thermally appropriate.
 
2013-09-04 10:22:31 AM  

EvilEgg: Mr. Coffee Nerves: A former boss of mine did away with time sheets. He said "In the long run I get more than 40 hours a week out of each of you anyway, so, as long as the work is done and there's someone always around to keep the lights on, keep track of your own time."

Of course, he was also a sociopath who required 24/7 blackberry access and once demanded a conference call at 11AM on Thanksgiving morning, so...

I think time sheets are kind of necessary evil.  Not for paying you, but for me bidding the next job.  The more data I have on how long it actually takes you to do a job the more accurate quote I can give a customer.


The more time you spend filling out timesheets, the less time you spend doing billable work.  Or, if you bill for time spent filling out timesheets, say hello to your competitors who get shiat delivered faster and cheaper because they don't waste their time with that crap.

CSB: I work on a product team that doesn't have to keep track of billable hours or anything, but our management has decided we need better time estimates.  So we spend 3 weeks in meetings to come up with time estimates for a 4 week project, then cancel the project because we don't have 4 weeks to spend working on it.
Also, we have to report a separate set of timesheets to the accounting people due to the amortization of some work as expenses and other work as capital investments or some bullshiat.
Really, I wish I could just do some farking work every once in a while.
 
2013-09-04 10:37:29 AM  
We get something like 6 hours of vacation added to the tally every two weeks. Not sure what that works out to. But I am pretty sure I have somewhere just north of 400 hours built up, and I'm equally sure I'll probably get a payout rather than a vacation when I finally leave.
 
2013-09-04 11:05:18 AM  
More commonly known as forced early retirement.
 
2013-09-04 11:35:47 AM  

EvilEgg: I think time sheets are kind of necessary evil.  Not for paying you, but for me bidding the next job.  The more data I have on how long it actually takes you to do a job the more accurate quote I can give a customer.


Pretty much.  Our company didn't start time sheets, but we have a time tracking system for projects.  They don't expect you to account for every minute you're working, but if you work on a project they want to keep a tally of how much time everyone is dedicating to it.

I thought I'd hate it when we began, but it's actually helped us out because upper management can't try to force through a year-long project in 3 months and we have the data to back it up.
 
2013-09-04 11:59:06 AM  
This would be great if you decided to leave the company.  Just leave and not tell them you have quit.  Start another job somewhere else (preferably in another town) and see how long you can keep receiving two paychecks.
 
2013-09-04 12:04:55 PM  
With my nebulous job situation over the last 5 years, I'm back to 2 weeks a year.
 
2013-09-04 12:33:35 PM  
I own my own business, so for me it is unlimited vacation time.  But I own my own business, so I rarely take it because I'd rather get work done than just sitting around on my arse.  Usually my vacations rotate around my wife's vacation time.  If it weren't for here, I'd probably never take much more than a week off per year.

/not including business trips
 
2013-09-04 02:03:09 PM  
I get 3 weeks for sick or vacation time. 18 or so days a year get used.  I like taking a week off during summer to attend the kid's rodeo competitions and a week in November because fark Christmas.
 
2013-09-04 02:08:36 PM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: A former boss of mine did away with time sheets. He said "In the long run I get more than 40 hours a week out of each of you anyway, so, as long as the work is done and there's someone always around to keep the lights on, keep track of your own time."

Of course, he was also a sociopath who required 24/7 blackberry access and once demanded a conference call at 11AM on Thanksgiving morning, so...


I'm not sure what state you're in, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster on his part.   The chances that you were on call 24/7 and were correctly categorized as an except employee are very, very small.   That, coupled with the fact that the burden to document hours worked is on the employer means that you or anyone in your situation could sue your former employer and he would have to prove that, one, you were correctly exempt from overtime, and two, that you weren't working sixty hour weeks the whole time.

It sounds like he would be completely defenseless against a legal claim.  Not that I'm a lawyer or anything.
 
2013-09-04 03:37:01 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: I get 3 weeks for sick or vacation time. 18 or so days a year get used.  I like taking a week off during summer to attend the kid's rodeo competitions and a week in November because fark Christmas.


Kwaanza is my favorite week at work.  Everybody is gone, and I can finish up tons of loose ends.
 
2013-09-04 03:57:23 PM  

show me: The elephant in the room that the article barely touched directly was that you can show up at the office any amount you want, but you still have to get X amount of work done. Procrastinate until 2 days before the project is due, then crank out 10,000 lines of code in that time. If you can do that, you should probably start your own consulting firm and bid the projects as fixed cost.


The math for striking out on your own as an independent contractor isn't quite so simple. Even ignoring the likelihood of burnout and the overhead of non-billable hours trying to get the next contract, the contractor can't crank out 10,000 lines of code every two days, because for most projects, there isn't that much code to be cranked out before the project is done.

Assume a hypothetical salaried grunt getting $120K/year.
Assume an equivalent contractor gets $120/hour, which, if the contractor is working 40h/week * 50week/y nets out to $240K/year.

Wage slave slacks off for three weeks, puts in three or four 12-hour days during the last month, but basically gets $10,000 for reading Fark, drinking coffee, and eating donuts in the cafeteria.
Consultant starves unless he gets the contract, puts in 30-40 hours of work, gets $3,600-4,800 and then starves until he or she can find a new contract.

Despite getting paid half as much per hour, our slacker has gotten paid twice what the contractor earned for the same amount of work. For some companies, this tradeoff is worth it, because the slacker is almost guaranteed to be available for the next project and can leverage his or her memory of what happened last month. For other companies, it's not, and they can make do with a more temporary workforce, as long as they're willing to put up with the overhead of getting this month's contractor up to speed on the project. You pays your money, you takes your chances.
 
2013-09-04 04:37:45 PM  
Combine this policy with one where you have to bid for your vacation slots based on seniority, and managers who knew exactly when to set arbitrary deadlines and you'd have pure Evil Genius.
 
2013-09-04 08:25:51 PM  

Tricky Chicken: EvilEgg: Rev.K: FTA:

There is also no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one comes to work naked.


*checks for clothing policy*


Well, I'll be damned.

SCREW YOU, PANTS!

Sad, my company has a dress code policy that includes pants.

Here the men's code specifies pants and no jeans.
The women's code allows pants and skirts and no jeans.

In hot weather, since I can't wear shorts, I wonder if skirts would be more thermally appropriate.


I've considered wearing a kilt in the summer, if they complain I'll file a discrimination suit.


/part Scotch


//mostly bourbon
 
2013-09-04 11:03:52 PM  
i489.photobucket.com
 
2013-09-04 11:36:22 PM  

Twilight Farkle: show me: The elephant in the room that the article barely touched directly was that you can show up at the office any amount you want, but you still have to get X amount of work done. Procrastinate until 2 days before the project is due, then crank out 10,000 lines of code in that time. If you can do that, you should probably start your own consulting firm and bid the projects as fixed cost.

The math for striking out on your own as an independent contractor isn't quite so simple. Even ignoring the likelihood of burnout and the overhead of non-billable hours trying to get the next contract, the contractor can't crank out 10,000 lines of code every two days, because for most projects, there isn't that much code to be cranked out before the project is done.

Assume a hypothetical salaried grunt getting $120K/year.
Assume an equivalent contractor gets $120/hour, which, if the contractor is working 40h/week * 50week/y nets out to $240K/year.

Wage slave slacks off for three weeks, puts in three or four 12-hour days during the last month, but basically gets $10,000 for reading Fark, drinking coffee, and eating donuts in the cafeteria.
Consultant starves unless he gets the contract, puts in 30-40 hours of work, gets $3,600-4,800 and then starves until he or she can find a new contract.

Despite getting paid half as much per hour, our slacker has gotten paid twice what the contractor earned for the same amount of work. For some companies, this tradeoff is worth it, because the slacker is almost guaranteed to be available for the next project and can leverage his or her memory of what happened last month. For other companies, it's not, and they can make do with a more temporary workforce, as long as they're willing to put up with the overhead of getting this month's contractor up to speed on the project. You pays your money, you takes your chances.


Oh, I agree with you 100%. I was just making a stupid, unreal example. Most people who are "their own boss" work much harder than regular employees, especially if they are really making a go of it.
 
2013-09-05 12:23:49 AM  

show me: Twilight Farkle: show me: The elephant in the room that the article barely touched directly was that you can show up at the office any amount you want, but you still have to get X amount of work done. Procrastinate until 2 days before the project is due, then crank out 10,000 lines of code in that time. If you can do that, you should probably start your own consulting firm and bid the projects as fixed cost.

The math for striking out on your own as an independent contractor isn't quite so simple. Even ignoring the likelihood of burnout and the overhead of non-billable hours trying to get the next contract, the contractor can't crank out 10,000 lines of code every two days, because for most projects, there isn't that much code to be cranked out before the project is done.

Assume a hypothetical salaried grunt getting $120K/year.
Assume an equivalent contractor gets $120/hour, which, if the contractor is working 40h/week * 50week/y nets out to $240K/year.

Wage slave slacks off for three weeks, puts in three or four 12-hour days during the last month, but basically gets $10,000 for reading Fark, drinking coffee, and eating donuts in the cafeteria.
Consultant starves unless he gets the contract, puts in 30-40 hours of work, gets $3,600-4,800 and then starves until he or she can find a new contract.

Despite getting paid half as much per hour, our slacker has gotten paid twice what the contractor earned for the same amount of work. For some companies, this tradeoff is worth it, because the slacker is almost guaranteed to be available for the next project and can leverage his or her memory of what happened last month. For other companies, it's not, and they can make do with a more temporary workforce, as long as they're willing to put up with the overhead of getting this month's contractor up to speed on the project. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. I was just making a stupid, unreal example. Most people who are "their own boss" w ...


Most people don't know how to budget (and over consume) and put their money to work.  I work about 4-7 months out of the year, more if I want for the sake of it's fun.  Bill for everything onsite regardless, if full remote then lenient on "learning new tech" hours.
 
2013-09-05 12:48:53 AM  

divx88: show me: Twilight Farkle: Despite getting paid half as much per hour, our slacker has gotten paid twice what the contractor earned for the same amount of work.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. I was just making a stupid, unreal example. Most people who are "their own boss" work much harder than regular employees, especially if they are really making a go of it.

Most people don't know how to budget (and over consume) and put their money to work. I work about 4-7 months out of the year, more if I want for the sake of it's fun. Bill for everything onsite regardless, if full remote then lenient on "learning new tech" hours.


I'm okay with (both of) these, and doubly so with the notion that the money's not to be spent as it's earned no matter which path you chose. If you're full-time, it's to be socked away for when, not if, your skills become obsolete as your last employer's software becomes obsolete. If you're a contractor, it's the same thing on a shorter timeframe; it's to pay the rent between gigs.

If you're using the remaining 6 months of the year to keep current (or if keeping yourself current is your hobby and you can do that better without a full time job hanging over your head for eight hours a day), 1099's the way to go. Do the gigs for love, not the money, and if you stumble your way into a startup every few years and want to roll the dice with one, so much the better. Aggregated over a million careers, the expected value of that strategy is probably comparable to that of most full timers. Paying your money and taking your chances applies to employees as well as enterprises.
 
2013-09-05 04:14:10 AM  

unlikely: We get something like 6 hours of vacation added to the tally every two weeks. Not sure what that works out to. But I am pretty sure I have somewhere just north of 400 hours built up, and I'm equally sure I'll probably get a payout rather than a vacation when I finally leave.


Check the contract bud. There is most likely a cap on the amount of time that can be saved. Ask HR, should be a pretty easy answer for them.

/Looking for content/sem/seo work here in town.
//Let me know if you know of anything.
 
2013-09-05 04:25:32 AM  
Where I work at I get up to ten days of vacation plus holidays and I'm not in an union.
 
2013-09-05 05:25:33 AM  

I used to work at a place like this about 10 years ago.  They also had free food, an on-site bar (yes, free!) free massages, and a whole raft of other amazing perks.


That place was hell to work and I lasted less than a year.  The reason they offer so many great extras is because you're expected to work all the hours of the day and night.  Taking time to go grocery shopping or prepare a meal was time you could spend working, so they made sure it was taken care of for you so you had no excuse.  Same with the bar - they legally can't allow you to drive home after you've had a few, you have to stay the night, and if you're going to be there all night, well you might as well get some work done, right?


Now the reason they refused to define work hours or vacation days was so they couldn't be prosecuted for violating the labor laws.  I was working 70-80 hours a week routinely and after about 10 months I burnt out and took about five weeks off to recover my head.  Never heard a peep from my boss during that time, but when I got back I found someone else at my desk, doing my job.  Sure enough, at the end of the month my contract wasn't renewed.


Ended up at a place that offered five weeks, with a use-it-or-lose-it policy and was much happier.


/yeah, yeah, CSB

 
2013-09-05 05:27:36 AM  

ReapTheChaos: Didn't we just have a thread about this last week?


I never understand these people.

While I am impressed with your superhuman ability to remember last week, why cant you just enjoy the thread as presently presented?
 
2013-09-05 08:04:06 AM  

non-racer X: Tricky Chicken: EvilEgg: Rev.K: FTA:

There is also no clothing policy at Netflix, but no one comes to work naked.


*checks for clothing policy*


Well, I'll be damned.

SCREW YOU, PANTS!

Sad, my company has a dress code policy that includes pants.

Here the men's code specifies pants and no jeans.
The women's code allows pants and skirts and no jeans.

In hot weather, since I can't wear shorts, I wonder if skirts would be more thermally appropriate.

I've considered wearing a kilt in the summer, if they complain I'll file a discrimination suit.


/part Scotch


//mostly bourbon


\\CSB - I worked in an office that specifically did not allow kilts due to a previous worker who wore it with no underwear (which he insisted should not be worn with kilts). The women were allowed to wear skirts, but not shorts, however skorts became controversial because they were being worn by several women intentionally to screw with the rules. Another woman who just had poor judgement kept wearing a simple black cocktail dress that had huge gaps between the front closures that left nothing to the imagination when she turned sideways. Other women would comment behind her back, but no one could find anything in the clothing rules that applied to the problem (and they were really looking for a reason to criticize her clothing).

I would imagine unlimited vacation would probably be taken advantage of by a handful of people like the clothing rules always are, but the majority would just take the normal 3 weeks or so off every year.
 
2013-09-05 08:33:49 AM  

Freschel: Where I work at I get up to ten days of vacation plus holidays and I'm not in an union.


Fifteen here, and if a shop gets organized, the management had it coming.
 
2013-09-05 08:52:10 AM  
4 weeks annual leave (vacation) soon to be 5, 10 holidays, 13 sick days. Why, yes, I do work for a quasi-government agency.

/We deliver
 
2013-09-05 09:24:31 AM  
I am not sure how those people who only get 2 weeks off stay sane.

In my jobs I've had anywhere between 3-5 weeks off a year and I think I would go insane if I had any less than that.

/Not a type A personality
//Has to take time away to recharge and decompress
///2 vacations a year plus a few days to toss at for family and special events is my minimum
 
2013-09-05 09:34:24 AM  

SearchN: unlikely: We get something like 6 hours of vacation added to the tally every two weeks. Not sure what that works out to. But I am pretty sure I have somewhere just north of 400 hours built up, and I'm equally sure I'll probably get a payout rather than a vacation when I finally leave.

Check the contract bud. There is most likely a cap on the amount of time that can be saved. Ask HR, should be a pretty easy answer for them.

/Looking for content/sem/seo work here in town.
//Let me know if you know of anything.


Vacation Cap is 450 hours. I'd probably hit it in spring if I weren't taking two weeks in Paris next month.

Check jobs.qualcomm.com and see if there's anything appealing. If there is, mail me privately (you've got my real email already) and we'll see if I can't get you through the door...
 
2013-09-05 09:57:01 AM  
17 days PTO, 10 paid holidays, every other Friday off, and unlimited unpaid leave.  Though the last one is something I kind of eked out for myself, and not any sort of company policy.  I'll sometimes send "courtesy emails" to my manager to inform him that I'll be taking a day or week off.  Sometimes I won't.  They know I'm trustworthy to get my job done with no supervision at all and would much rather tolerate my absences than replace me with someone they have to supervise.
 
2013-09-05 10:02:03 AM  
Oh, and when I'm away I always check work email daily.  People will ask me to do something and I'll be like, "Can't get to it right now but I am here to answer any questions," and they'll be like, "Oh I'm so sorry for interrupting your vacation and forcing you to think about work while away," and never take me up on it.  If I didn't want to think about work I could have avoided it by not checking my work email, you know.

Now, if my company wanted to put me on a 24/7 device I would tell them to GTFO.
 
2013-09-05 10:13:04 AM  

Loki009: I am not sure how those people who only get 2 weeks off stay sane.


I don't (stay sane-except via powerful prescription drugs). However, I'm working towards a specific goal and when I hit it, that's my last day, no notice, because fark them.

// God I love Theory X managers
 
2013-09-05 10:41:39 AM  
I've been working for the same boss at a small agency for over 15 years now. He knows and understands that vacation travel is a lifelong passion for me and my wife, and so his general policy is "go ahead, just let me know well in advance and don't take advantage (because we're a small shop and can't afford to be short-handed for long."

If I counted up my total vaca days, it's probably a little over 3 weeks per year. Whatever.

/next trip: Hong Kong in November
 
2013-09-05 10:51:23 AM  
20 days/yr plus acrurral of 1.67 days per month with maximum of 25 days. As long as you keep it under 25 days you keep accruing that 1.67 days/month. It's a biatch to keep up with. THere are some old timers here that accrue 2.50 days per month.
We also get:
3 PTO days/yr
1 Floating Holiday/yr
/non union
 
2013-09-05 11:00:29 AM  

non-racer X: I've considered wearing a kilt in the summer


DOWN WITH PANTS!  UP WITH KILTS!
 
2013-09-05 03:30:15 PM  
When you have a quantitative measure of the vacation time that you've earned, no one can fault you for using it and your manager needs a damn good reason to deny it.

It it's a worthless, infinite commodity, it's not very hard for your manager to shoot down requests and for fellow team members to look down on you for taking time off.
 
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