If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Some Guy)   Too many criminals are paying $500 to a lawyer to establish a trust, then spending $15k more to buy a machine gun, $1k more to buy a silencer, $400 more in tax stamps and waiting 8-10 months to go kill a bunch of people   (blog.princelaw.com) divider line 346
    More: Stupid, rulemaking process, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, law enforcement officer, NICS, FFL  
•       •       •

12698 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Sep 2013 at 9:05 AM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



346 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-09-03 01:40:50 PM

EvilEgg: I know, the GOP would never try to pass laws to combat a problem that didn't exist. That is why they are so down on the anti-voter fraud laws.


"It's ok to suck because you suck too!"

This is why I don't vote.
 
2013-09-03 01:42:05 PM
 
2013-09-03 01:42:26 PM

mbillips: My personal favorite, a "baby machine gun" like the one Babyface Nelson used to kill an FBI agent at Little Bohemia. To be completely accurate, most of the villainy involving commercially available machine guns occurred BEFORE the NFA passed, but that's a technicality that ignores the fact that making full-auto weapons unregulated and easily available ensures that baddies will use them.


They already *DO* that, but it's still rare.

Just like it was pretty rare back in the 1920's, despite the hysterical press and lurid Hollywood movies tell you.

Wait, a moral panic resulted in onerous regulations?  WTF?  That's *UNHEARD OF*!
 
2013-09-03 01:42:31 PM

dittybopper


If the skeletons in your closet are made of metal, you might be a sufficiently advanced cyborg.


Bumper sticker: "My other car is a hyper-alloy combat chassis"
 
2013-09-03 01:43:27 PM

redmid17: This text is now purple: redmid17: Mounties unleashed 25 vats of maple syrup on a local precinct and killed 10 officers.

Hey, syrup floods are no joke.

Great now I have to tell my dad his old saying "slower than molasses in January" is full of shiat. I'd rather be in a beer flood

 
2013-09-03 01:44:15 PM

Giltric: Magorn: Giltric: Magorn: Might not want to talk too loudly about machine guns aren;t used all that often by criminals, gun-nuts.  See what that proves is that gun Control laws DO work, so long as they are federal and not left to the states.  Is that really the argument that you want to make?

Only time NFA items were used in crimes, the perpetrators were cops.

Clyde Barrow's BAR
Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic
And John Dillinger's tommy gun would disagree with you

Predates NFA.

There is maybe a month overlap between the NFA and Dillingers death.

He pulled a revolver when they tried taking him outside the theatre.


Nope, a Colt 1908 pocket automatic in .380. Assuming that wasn't just a throwdown weapon planted by the FBI; they pretty much were using a "shoot first" policy toward the Dillinger gang by that point. And it may have just been something Hoover made up; the gun he displayed for years as Dillinger's gun was made five months after Dillinger's death. Hoover claimed he gave the original to Red Skelton, but it's since disappeared, if it ever existed.

"The Union Station Massacre" is a great book that documents what a complete tissue of lies the FBI's public statements were during the war on "Public Enemy" armed robbers and kidnappers in 1933-34. Hoover lied and covered up as a matter of course, and succeeded in growing the FBI from an obscure prosecutor's investigative arm to the national secret police.

Not that Dillinger and his ilk didn't deserve it, but the FBI were a bunch of incompetent college kids getting themselves killed until they brought in some veteran gunmen to basically murder the bank robbers. Hoover's BS about scientific investigation was just that; nearly all of the FBI's successes were based on tips developed by actual cops, or through illegal wiretaps and witness torture.
 
2013-09-03 01:44:22 PM

PsiChick: //And thank you so much, gun lobbyists, for stopping the CDC from getting us those statistics.


The studies from the CDC are out.  They didn't go the way the White House was hoping.  So sorry about that.
 
2013-09-03 01:44:51 PM

PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

/We need real statistics on who commits gun killings and why before we try to address the problem.
//And thank you so much, gun lobbyists, for stopping the CDC from  getting us those statistics.


The stats are still out there and are better than what the CDC could offer....I mean unless you can show me a report by the CDC that breaks gun violence into two categories.....ie people with previous felonies who commit murder with a firearm and hunters who have killed their own wife in cold blood.


the majority of gun related murders (80+ percent) are committed by people with arrest records, people who have done time for previous felonies etc.

A majority of their victims (80+ percent) are also people with arrest records, people who have served time for previous felonies etc....

Criminals make up the majority of offender and victim lists. It is gangbanger on gangbanger crime, and people involved in the drug trade.

soccer moms and school kids are the outliers.
 
2013-09-03 01:45:35 PM

Giltric: Magorn: Giltric: Magorn: Might not want to talk too loudly about machine guns aren;t used all that often by criminals, gun-nuts.  See what that proves is that gun Control laws DO work, so long as they are federal and not left to the states.  Is that really the argument that you want to make?

Only time NFA items were used in crimes, the perpetrators were cops.

Clyde Barrow's BAR
Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic
And John Dillinger's tommy gun would disagree with you

Predates NFA.

There is maybe a month overlap between the NFA and Dillingers death.

He pulled a revolver when they tried taking him outside the theatre.


I guess one can get super hyper technical too. All three of them were prohibited persons and not able to register their weapons without violating their fifth amendment rights.
 
2013-09-03 01:46:32 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: Making it harder got get guns?
I'm ok with this.


I take it you're a professional criminal.
 
2013-09-03 01:47:38 PM

PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...


You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?
 
2013-09-03 01:47:51 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: And yet at the end of the process you'll still have your toy, so how is your freedom infringed on


"A right delayed is a right denied."
- Martin Luther King Jr.
 
2013-09-03 01:48:53 PM

PsiChick: PsiChick: /We need real statistics on who commits gun killings and why before we try to address the problem.
//And thank you so much, gun lobbyists, for stopping the CDC from  getting us those statistics.


We have that information.  In fact, the CDC has it.  You can find it here:

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

Choose "homicide" in the first section, and "firearms" in the second, and then you can play around with the different demographic groups in the third section to get a pretty good idea where the problem lays.

The older version of the website allows you to break it down by state also, but it only goes up to 2007.

That's what you wanted, right?
 
2013-09-03 01:50:58 PM

utahraptor2: HotIgneous Intruder: Making it harder got get guns?
I'm ok with this.

I take it you're a professional criminal.


Maybe he's just an enthusiastic amateur.
 
2013-09-03 01:51:26 PM

mbillips: Giltric: Magorn: Giltric: Magorn: Might not want to talk too loudly about machine guns aren;t used all that often by criminals, gun-nuts.  See what that proves is that gun Control laws DO work, so long as they are federal and not left to the states.  Is that really the argument that you want to make?

Only time NFA items were used in crimes, the perpetrators were cops.

Clyde Barrow's BAR
Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic
And John Dillinger's tommy gun would disagree with you

Predates NFA.

There is maybe a month overlap between the NFA and Dillingers death.

He pulled a revolver when they tried taking him outside the theatre.

Nope, a Colt 1908 pocket automatic in .380. Assuming that wasn't just a throwdown weapon planted by the FBI; they pretty much were using a "shoot first" policy toward the Dillinger gang by that point. And it may have just been something Hoover made up; the gun he displayed for years as Dillinger's gun was made five months after Dillinger's death. Hoover claimed he gave the original to Red Skelton, but it's since disappeared, if it ever existed.

"The Union Station Massacre" is a great book that documents what a complete tissue of lies the FBI's public statements were during the war on "Public Enemy" armed robbers and kidnappers in 1933-34. Hoover lied and covered up as a matter of course, and succeeded in growing the FBI from an obscure prosecutor's investigative arm to the national secret police.

Not that Dillinger and his ilk didn't deserve it, but the FBI were a bunch of incompetent college kids getting themselves killed until they brought in some veteran gunmen to basically murder the bank robbers. Hoover's BS about scientific investigation was just that; nearly all of the FBI's successes were based on tips developed by actual cops, or through illegal wiretaps and witness torture.


Hah! awesome story, as opposed to cool story.

Think I will be making a request at the library now....

+1
 
2013-09-03 01:53:55 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: dittybopper

If the skeletons in your closet are made of metal, you might be a sufficiently advanced cyborg.


Bumper sticker: "My other car is a hyper-alloy combat chassis"


Think of the possibilities of a sexbot made from mimetic polyalloy:  Any shape you want, any size you want, and a hole or weener where ever you want it.
 
2013-09-03 01:54:48 PM

redmid17: Magorn: Giltric: Magorn: Might not want to talk too loudly about machine guns aren;t used all that often by criminals, gun-nuts.  See what that proves is that gun Control laws DO work, so long as they are federal and not left to the states.  Is that really the argument that you want to make?

Only time NFA items were used in crimes, the perpetrators were cops.

Clyde Barrow's BAR
Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic
And John Dillinger's tommy gun would disagree with you

Difficulty factor: Kind of hard to qualify as NFA weapons when the owners died before the NFA came into affect and was actually enforced


Well they are still the weapons covered under the NFA, and they are, more or less WHY there is an NFA.   Automatic weapons were cheap and plentiful and easy to get before that and used regularly in crimes.   After that they were expensive and very hard to obtain and suddenly more or less disappaeared from the hands of criminals.  Even during the Mob wars fo the 60's or even the crack territory wars in the 90's when DC was seeing 500 murders a year,  exactly zero were by NFA-covered weapons
 
2013-09-03 01:55:39 PM

Giltric: The only reason I was applying for a can is because I shoot on my property. My neighbors are a mile away but are NY transplants


NYC, or NYS?  Because there can be a very, very big difference.
 
2013-09-03 01:56:30 PM

dittybopper: mbillips: My personal favorite, a "baby machine gun" like the one Babyface Nelson used to kill an FBI agent at Little Bohemia. To be completely accurate, most of the villainy involving commercially available machine guns occurred BEFORE the NFA passed, but that's a technicality that ignores the fact that making full-auto weapons unregulated and easily available ensures that baddies will use them.

They already *DO* that, but it's still rare.

Just like it was pretty rare back in the 1920's, despite the hysterical press and lurid Hollywood movies tell you.

Wait, a moral panic resulted in onerous regulations?  WTF?  That's *UNHEARD OF*!


Aside from organized criminals using them to massacre each other, machine guns were mostly useful as crowd control. Bank robbers in the Midwest used tommy guns as noisemakers to cause panic and suppress fire from police, because in many cases, they would basically take over a small town until they'd finished robbing the bank. The Barrows and other armed robbers used Monitors and military surplus BARs to outgun cops on occasion, including taking out an armored car in Barrow's case, but tommy guns weren't considered useful for that, because of their lack of range and penetrating power in car pursuits.

According to a (very dubiously sourced) biography of Lester "Baby Face Nelson" Gillis, Gillis switched from a tommy gun to a semi-auto .35 Winchester rifle after he was mortally hit in the Battle of Barrington, and then walked into pistol and shotgun fire in order to kill two FBI agents with it. Again, tommy guns were mostly useless if you had cover behind a car.
 
2013-09-03 01:57:13 PM

redmid17: This text is now purple: redmid17: Mounties unleashed 25 vats of maple syrup on a local precinct and killed 10 officers.

Hey, syrup floods are no joke.

Great now I have to tell my dad his old saying "slower than molasses in January" is full of shiat. I'd rather be in a beer flood

i87.photobucket.com

/Now with preview
//Hotlinking is hard
 
2013-09-03 01:59:05 PM

Giltric: mbillips: Giltric: Magorn: Giltric: Magorn: Might not want to talk too loudly about machine guns aren;t used all that often by criminals, gun-nuts.  See what that proves is that gun Control laws DO work, so long as they are federal and not left to the states.  Is that really the argument that you want to make?

Only time NFA items were used in crimes, the perpetrators were cops.

Clyde Barrow's BAR
Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic
And John Dillinger's tommy gun would disagree with you

Predates NFA.

There is maybe a month overlap between the NFA and Dillingers death.

He pulled a revolver when they tried taking him outside the theatre.

Nope, a Colt 1908 pocket automatic in .380. Assuming that wasn't just a throwdown weapon planted by the FBI; they pretty much were using a "shoot first" policy toward the Dillinger gang by that point. And it may have just been something Hoover made up; the gun he displayed for years as Dillinger's gun was made five months after Dillinger's death. Hoover claimed he gave the original to Red Skelton, but it's since disappeared, if it ever existed.

"The Union Station Massacre" is a great book that documents what a complete tissue of lies the FBI's public statements were during the war on "Public Enemy" armed robbers and kidnappers in 1933-34. Hoover lied and covered up as a matter of course, and succeeded in growing the FBI from an obscure prosecutor's investigative arm to the national secret police.

Not that Dillinger and his ilk didn't deserve it, but the FBI were a bunch of incompetent college kids getting themselves killed until they brought in some veteran gunmen to basically murder the bank robbers. Hoover's BS about scientific investigation was just that; nearly all of the FBI's successes were based on tips developed by actual cops, or through illegal wiretaps and witness torture.

Hah! awesome story, as opposed to cool story.

Think I will be making a request at the library now....

+1


Also highly recommend William Helmer's "Public Enemies." The Johnny Depp movie did a great job of relaying the overall story of the era, but you can't trust any of the details it shows; they combined a lot of events/characters to make a better movie.
 
2013-09-03 02:02:11 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: BraveNewCheneyWorld: That's like saying that "free speech zones" aren't an inherent infringement on your free speech rights, even though you can say whatever you want in some abandoned parking lot where nobody will hear you.

If we want to take it literal, but fact remains the law as written has been interpreted that regulation does not violate your constitutional rights.


And if someone pisses on you and tells you it's raining, do you listen to common sense, or their "interpretation" of the liquid raining down on you?  Do you honestly think the founding fathers, when they wrote "shall not be infringed" would say that it's completely within their intent to allow the government to force you to wait for nearly a year in every instance where you wanted to exercise a right?

Let's take that argument to free speech again, would it be completely ok for a sitting president to suppress all negative reports about him, as long as he allowed the reports to be published after his presidency?  According to your logic, you still have the right of free speech.. it's just delayed.  Are you actually defending that?  Or do you see some rights as more breakable than others?
 
2013-09-03 02:04:07 PM

Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?


No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

/Hunh, apparently the CDC report is out. Well, egg on my face there...
 
2013-09-03 02:06:14 PM

PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

/Hunh, apparently the CDC report is out. Well, egg on my face there...


Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?
 
2013-09-03 02:13:52 PM

PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.


I am certain, then, that the policy change can be justified through demonstration that felons frequently obtain NFA-restricted devices through trusts of which they are members. I am also certain that demonstration will be made that this policy change will physically prevent individuals from obtaining NFA-restricted devices and physically handing them to felons.
 
2013-09-03 02:14:34 PM

PsiChick: No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.


Straw purchasers are rarely prosecuted.

Even when felons fill out a 4473 and fail a background check they are rarely prosecuted.

One of the states claimed 73000 denied purchases due to one reason or another from peoples 4473/nics check...yet only 13 prosecutions.

Start enforcing the laws on the books.....why make every transfer of a firearm subjected to a background check (the proposed UBC) when the denied purchasers aren't even prosecuted as per the current background check system?
 
2013-09-03 02:16:50 PM

Magorn: Automatic weapons were cheap and plentiful and easy to get before that and used regularly in crimes.   After that they were expensive and very hard to obtain and suddenly more or less disappaeared from the hands of criminals.  Even during the Mob wars fo the 60's or even the crack territory wars in the 90's when DC was seeing 500 murders a year,  exactly zero were by NFA-covered weapons


This is not really true. Automatic weapons were used before and after 1934 by criminals, but they were never in common use. (This is partly due to the fact that there were very few automatic weapons capable of being used by a single person prior to this date.)

We still do have crimes committed with fully-automatic weapons- one very high profile is the North Hollywood Shootout. The difference with this and prior to 1934 is that those weapons were not acquired legally. Practically, getting an automatic weapon for crime in this day and age means that the would-be gunman must have the knowledge how to convert a weapon to fire fully automatically, or they must be able to steal it, or they must pay another criminal to acquire it for them. Any one of these three things represents a steep barrier to entry for a criminal using a fully automatic weapon.

The 1934 NFA has been effective at stopping *legally acquired* machineguns from being used in crime. It hasn't eradicated their use. As to what the rate of usage is before and after, I have no idea.
 
2013-09-03 02:16:55 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

/Hunh, apparently the CDC report is out. Well, egg on my face there...

Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?


I will make a guess of "zero".

That way, if everyone else guesses to high, I win by default.

/It works on The Price is Right.
 
2013-09-03 02:19:42 PM

PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.


Except that is won't stop anything, but make it more annoying for law abiding folks. Let us look at different ways the NFA item could be acquired by a felon:

1) Felon fills out Form 4. Denied by ATF. Doesn't get item
2) Family member of felon fills out Form 4. Approved. Gives NFA item to Felon --> Felony committed
3) Felon establishes trust. A copy of the trust with all Trustees and Beneficiaries are listed on the paperwork. Could be denied as the felon is listed on the trust. Assuming that the Form 4 gets approved, Felon goes to pick up item, fills out 4473 and then fails NICS check. Doesn't get item.
4) Same as 3, except other trustee goes to pick up item. Fills out 4473 and then passes NICS. Gives item to Felon --> Felony committed.
5) Same as 4 except the felon isn't list on the Trust. Trustee passes NICS and gives item to Felon --> Felony committed.

As you can see, no matter how you slice it, it there is a willing straw purchaser, the felon can get the item that way. A felon cannot, without assistance, create a trust and then get an NFA item transferred to themselves.
 
2013-09-03 02:23:38 PM

Magorn: Automatic weapons were often used in lurid crime movies cheap and plentiful and easy to get before that and seldom used  regularly in crimes.


FTFY
 
2013-09-03 02:24:54 PM
mbillips:

1. It often decreases accuracy. Most suppressors make it impossible to see the front sight, and quick-detach models in particular can change your zero. This is just another silly thing the gun/accessory industry wants to sell to you, and the NRA is about nothing but industry marketing these days, so of course they're promoting it.

2. The amount of shooting anyone is ever likely to do outside a range is so insignificant as to not be worth thinking about. Your ears can handle a few unprotected gunshot sounds in a lifetime. My dad ...


Spoken like a Call of Duty warrior without any expertise. Suppressor frequently increase accuracy and will even increase velocity a tiny bit. A few unprotected gun shots can absolutely damage your hearing.

Frankly, once I shot suppressed, I decided never to go back. It is so much more pleasant to shoot suppressed firearms, and I still use hear protection.
 
2013-09-03 02:25:35 PM

Magorn: Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic


This is not what we call a machinegun. In that usage, 'automatic' is a jargon term that means 'self-loading and extracting'... in other words, it's what we'd call a semi-automatic weapon today. At the time, it was used to distinguish that type of weapon from something like a revolver, bolt-action, or lever-action gun. (The revolver doesn't extract casings after use, the bolt action and the lever action both loads and extracts, but the action must be operated manually.)

Case in point: Colt didn't make any machineguns at that time, other than the M1895 machinegun, which is definitely *not* a crime gun. It's a tripod-mounted, belt-fed machine gun.
 
2013-09-03 02:25:37 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

/Hunh, apparently the CDC report is out. Well, egg on my face there...

Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?


Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

Giltric: PsiChick: No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

Straw purchasers are rarely prosecuted.

Even when felons fill out a 4473 and fail a background check they are rarely prosecuted.

One of the states claimed 73000 denied purchases due to one reason or another from peoples 4473/nics check...yet only 13 prosecutions.

Start enforcing the laws on the books.....why make every transfer of a firearm subjected to a background check (the proposed UBC) when the denied purchasers aren't even prosecuted as per the current background check system?


I'd be a-okay with that. Better use of our time then going after potheads.

Dimensio: No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

I am certain, then, that the policy change can be justified through demonstration that felons frequently obtain NFA-restricted devices through trusts of which they are members. I am also certain that demonstration will be made that this policy change will physically prevent individuals from obtaining NFA-restricted devices and physically handing them to felons.


Good luck with that.

/I said that was the point. Never said it made any sense in the real world.
 
2013-09-03 02:28:47 PM

PsiChick: redmid17: PsiChick: Dimensio: PsiChick: Zane256: Of course the Obama administration ignores that whomever is picking up the NFA item still fills out a 4473 and has to under go a NICS check.

Sure, they could still hand them to a felon, but then so could someone who fills out the Form 4 as an individual. The felon still can't possess the item. This just makes it more difficult for all members of a family to legally possess the NFA item.

That might be the point...

You are saying, then, that the actual purpose is not to reduce criminal possession of such devices, and that the claim of such a motive is a lie?

No, the purpose is to reduce criminal possession--by stopping the criminals from getting their sister\brother\parent\relative from buying it for them.

/Hunh, apparently the CDC report is out. Well, egg on my face there...

Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?

Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.


I don't normally bet with dead criminals. However if he did take that bet, I daresay he (and you) would be disappointed with the results.
 
2013-09-03 02:31:59 PM

PsiChick: Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.


Adam Lanza didn't use an NFA firearm.
 
2013-09-03 02:40:16 PM

Fubini: This is not what we call a machinegun. In that usage, 'automatic' is a jargon term that means 'self-loading and extracting'... in other words, it's what we'd call a semi-automatic weapon today. At the time, it was used to distinguish that type of weapon from something like a revolver, bolt-action, or lever-action gun. (The revolver doesn't extract casings after use, the bolt action and the lever action both loads and extracts, but the action must be operated manually.)


No, that gun is modified to fire fully automatic.  That's why it's got the front grip on it, and the extended magazine.  Google "Colt 1911 machine pistol".

I've had a Colt 1911 go cyclic on me, and you *NEED* a grip like that just to keep it pointing in the general direction of whatever you are shooting at.  Trust me.
 
2013-09-03 02:43:29 PM

Click Click D'oh: PsiChick: Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

Adam Lanza didn't use an NFA firearm.


And yet, that same principle applies--while he was not allowed to own firearms, his mother, who was, let him use those firearms and was unwitting source of firearms for his rampage.

redmid17: Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?

Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

I don't normally bet with dead criminals. However if he did take that bet, I daresay he (and you) would be disappointed with the results.


Scroll up. I'm referring to the principle, not the weapon type--gun crime isn't really something that depends on the type of gun, the attacker will use what's available.
 
2013-09-03 02:44:47 PM

Fubini: Magorn: Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic

This is not what we call a machinegun. In that usage, 'automatic' is a jargon term that means 'self-loading and extracting'... in other words, it's what we'd call a semi-automatic weapon today. At the time, it was used to distinguish that type of weapon from something like a revolver, bolt-action, or lever-action gun. (The revolver doesn't extract casings after use, the bolt action and the lever action both loads and extracts, but the action must be operated manually.)

Case in point: Colt didn't make any machineguns at that time, other than the M1895 machinegun, which is definitely *not* a crime gun. It's a tripod-mounted, belt-fed machine gun.


Pretty Boy Floyd's criminal career was in the early '30s. Colt manufactured the Maxim/Vickers and the Browning M1917 under license during WWI. They also manufactured 15,000 Thompson submachine guns.

But what he's referring to is the "baby machine gun," which a certain San Antonio gunsmith made from the Colt 1911 and supplied to gangsters and bank robbers, including Floyd.
 
2013-09-03 02:56:59 PM

mbillips: Two kinds of people need suppressors. Special forces and assassins.


Just because you can't think of another reason (or refuse to acknowledge the other reasons given to you) doesn't mean they don't exist or are not valid. It just means you are unimaginative and/or ignorant.
 
2013-09-03 03:00:33 PM

Click Click D'oh: PsiChick: Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

Adam Lanza didn't use an NFA firearm.


Adam Lanza could have used a lever action deer rifle and killed just as many people.

He started shooting at 9:35am, and stopped no earlier than 9:46am and perhaps as late at 9:49am  That's 11 to 14 minutes, or 660 to 840 seconds.  During that time, he shot 154 times.

That is an average of between 4.3 seconds per shot up to about 5.5 seconds per shot.

I was shooting my son's single shot .22 LR rifle over the weekend, and I'm sure I could maintain a rate of 1 shot every 5 seconds, aimed fire.

With a level action rifle, especially one in .357 or .44 Magnum, you could have a capacity of 12 or 13 rounds, and it doesn't take that long to cycle the lever with practice.  You can "top off" the fixed magazine at will, when it's convenient.

The other thing to consider is that he attacked an *ELEMENTARY* school.  All he really had to do was shoot the adults that got in his way first (principal, psychologist, head teacher), then shoot the teacher upon entering a class room, then kill the kids at his leisure, because they won't have the presence of mind, nor the actual strength, to overwhelm him, like a room full of 20 or 30 adults might have.

He could have managed that with a break-open double barrel shotgun, to be quite honest.

People are focused on the gun he used, which is a distraction from the mental health issues.  It's not the hardware that was the problem, in this case it was defective software.
 
2013-09-03 03:03:50 PM

PsiChick: And yet, that same principle applies--


Do you mount your goalposts in a truck to keep them that mobile?  The original question was in regards to how many times a family member has purchased an NFA item to provide to a family member to commit crime.

If you don't know how apples and oranges that is from the Lanza incident, you aren't qualified to talk about NFA transactions.

PsiChick: Scroll up. I'm referring to the principle, not the weapon type--gun crime isn't really something that depends on the type of gun, the attacker will use what's available.


And attackers have used NFA items how many times since 1934?
 
2013-09-03 03:04:23 PM

mbillips: Fubini: Magorn: Pretty Boy Floyd's colt Automatic

This is not what we call a machinegun. In that usage, 'automatic' is a jargon term that means 'self-loading and extracting'... in other words, it's what we'd call a semi-automatic weapon today. At the time, it was used to distinguish that type of weapon from something like a revolver, bolt-action, or lever-action gun. (The revolver doesn't extract casings after use, the bolt action and the lever action both loads and extracts, but the action must be operated manually.)

Case in point: Colt didn't make any machineguns at that time, other than the M1895 machinegun, which is definitely *not* a crime gun. It's a tripod-mounted, belt-fed machine gun.

Pretty Boy Floyd's criminal career was in the early '30s. Colt manufactured the Maxim/Vickers and the Browning M1917 under license during WWI. They also manufactured 15,000 Thompson submachine guns.

But what he's referring to is the "baby machine gun," which a certain San Antonio gunsmith made from the Colt 1911 and supplied to gangsters and bank robbers, including Floyd.


Yeah, this puppy:
www.thefirearmblog.com
Which, whatever else we may believe, I think we can all agree is a sin against God, nature, and John Moses Browning
 
2013-09-03 03:06:39 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: mbillips: Two kinds of people need suppressors. Special forces and assassins.

Just because you can't think of another reason (or refuse to acknowledge the other reasons given to you) doesn't mean they don't exist or are not valid. It just means you are unimaginative and/or ignorant.


It's even worse.  He actually acknowledges a good reason for owning them in the sentence immediately before:

2. The amount of shooting anyone is ever likely to do outside a range is so insignificant as to not be worth thinking about. Your ears can handle a few unprotected gunshot sounds in a lifetime. My dad lost a lot of hearing late in life, but he hunted with a 12-gauge and no ear protection for decades.

Two kinds of people need suppressors. Special forces and assassins.


So it's actually three kinds of people:  Special Forces, assassins, and avid hunters.
 
2013-09-03 03:06:45 PM

PsiChick: redmid17: Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?

Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

I don't normally bet with dead criminals. However if he did take that bet, I daresay he (and you) would be disappointed with the results.

Scroll up. I'm referring to the principle, not the weapon type--gun crime isn't really something that depends on the type of gun, the attacker will use what's available.


Your principle is also heavily flawed. Any execution of a crime or possession of an NFA weapon in use of a crime automatically tacks on a *long* time of mandatory prison (ie 30 years for use of a silencer in a crime). There is a very, very small advantage to using an NFA weapon, which has been seriously tracked throughout its life and a $200 kel-tec that has been passed around more than the village bicycle versus all the disadvantages. Criminals aren't always smart but availability is only part of what is going on. Criminals value portable and concealable weapons. That is why handguns are by far the most used weapon in crimes, especially murders. Rifles and shotguns are much easier to get than handguns in many places, especially in cities like NYC and Chicago, and there is no federal requirement for FFLs to register sales of multiple long guns in a short period of time by one person.
 
2013-09-03 03:08:08 PM

Magorn


Which, whatever else we may believe, I think we can all agree is a sin against God, nature, and John Moses Browning


Counterpoint: I think we could also make the case that this is a fairly pure example of hacking (in the traditional sense).
 
2013-09-03 03:08:54 PM
They're Terkin are Gehrns!
 
2013-09-03 03:17:39 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: redmid17: Care to wager how many times a family member has purchased an NFA weapon for a relative who used it in a crime?

Adam Lanza (or however you spell his name) might take that wager.

I don't normally bet with dead criminals. However if he did take that bet, I daresay he (and you) would be disappointed with the results.

Scroll up. I'm referring to the principle, not the weapon type--gun crime isn't really something that depends on the type of gun, the attacker will use what's available.

Your principle is also heavily flawed. Any execution of a crime or possession of an NFA weapon in use of a crime automatically tacks on a *long* time of mandatory prison (ie 30 years for use of a silencer in a crime). There is a very, very small advantage to using an NFA weapon, which has been seriously tracked throughout its life and a $200 kel-tec that has been passed around more than the village bicycle versus all the disadvantages. Criminals aren't always smart but availability is only part of what is going on. Criminals value portable and concealable weapons. That is why handguns are by far the most used weapon in crimes, especially murders. Rifles and shotguns are much easier to get than handguns in many places, especially in cities like NYC and Chicago, and there is no federal requirement for FFLs to register sales of multiple long guns in a short period of time by one person.


Actually, this depends on what state you are in.  For some reason I remember the field agent mentioning this during my interview.

"In August 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) was authorized by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to initiate similar reporting requirements on the multiple sales related to certain rifles for a period of three years. Multiple Sales For Certain Rifles requires all federal firearms licensees in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to submit reports of multiple sales or other dispositions to an unlicensed individual of two or more rifles within five consecutive business days having the following characteristics: (1) semiautomatic; (2) a caliber greater than .22 (including .223/5.56 mm); and (3) the ability to accept detachable magazines. "

www.atf.gov
 
2013-09-03 03:20:44 PM

Click Click D'oh: PsiChick: And yet, that same principle applies--

Do you mount your goalposts in a truck to keep them that mobile?  The original question was in regards to how many times a family member has purchased an NFA item to provide to a family member to commit crime.

If you don't know how apples and oranges that is from the Lanza incident, you aren't qualified to talk about NFA transactions.

PsiChick: Scroll up. I'm referring to the principle, not the weapon type--gun crime isn't really something that depends on the type of gun, the attacker will use what's available.

And attackers have used NFA items how many times since 1934?


Can you prove that the type of gun is an important factor in gun crime, then? Because most of us assume that, if someone wants to kill people, they'll go and use whatever's available.
 
2013-09-03 03:20:53 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: Magorn

Which, whatever else we may believe, I think we can all agree is a sin against God, nature, and John Moses Browning


Counterpoint: I think we could also make the case that this is a fairly pure example of hacking (in the traditional sense).


It has a certain "there, I fixed it!" aesthetic. I'd love to try shooting one.
 
2013-09-03 03:28:35 PM

PsiChick: Can you prove that the type of gun is an important factor in gun crime, then?



The facts as they are:

Non-NFA firearms used in the commission of crimes since 1934:   Eight Billion (roughly)
NFA firearms used in the commission of crimes since 1934:                                          2

The fact that you keep lumping NFA items in with every other gun available mean that either 1) You truly have no clue what you are on about -or- 2) are intentionally conflating the two items to create confusion about what the real scope of the issue.  The truth is that NFA firearms are simply not used to commit crimes on any appreciable scale.

Keep those Goal posts moving.
 
Displayed 50 of 346 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report