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(The New York Times)   World economy growing unevenly. Great, now we have to flatten out the air bubbles in the market   (nytimes.com) divider line 89
    More: Interesting, global economy, advanced economies, structural unemployment, current accounts, Organization for Economic Cooperation, emerging markets, consumer confidence  
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1455 clicks; posted to Business » on 03 Sep 2013 at 9:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-03 04:07:38 PM  

FarkedOver: Take a look at the sad state of the infrastructure in this country. We could benefit from a massive public works project.


No, there is a place for public work and goverment, but they also work within the confines of our regulated capitalist system.  They oftentimes buy thier designs and labor from private companies for this work.  All of the materials come from the private sector.
 
2013-09-03 04:09:54 PM  

FarkedOver: Please see the Big Dig in Boston.


So the one project that went south negates the thousands of successful projects?  Quit cherry picking.
 
2013-09-03 04:10:04 PM  

HeadLever: No, there is a place for public work and goverment, but they also work within the confines of our regulated capitalist system. They oftentimes buy thier designs and labor from private companies for this work. All of the materials come from the private sector.


Which is why we get shoddy equipment.  Anything to save a buck.
 
2013-09-03 04:10:46 PM  

FarkedOver: I got better.


That is an opionion that you may have of yourself.  Others may disagree.
 
2013-09-03 04:11:01 PM  

zeroman987: GoldSpider: FarkedOver: Neither is a society where people are forced to sell their labor in order for their basic needs.

So you think people should be able to sit on their asses and have their every need fulfilled by people who work and pay taxes, if they so choose?

You mean like the investor class that was born into wealth and never worked a day in their lives?


I'm no fan of stagnant wealth but that's hardly the same thing as people on permanent public assistance.
 
2013-09-03 04:12:52 PM  

HeadLever: So the one project that went south negates the thousands of successful projects? Quit cherry picking.


That is one off the top of my head, I highly doubt its "the one project that went south".  Ye have way too much faith in capitalism.
 
2013-09-03 04:14:17 PM  

FarkedOver: Which is why we get shoddy equipment.


Then you had better fire you specification writer or spend more time doing your damn job.  If you want the the good stuff, spec it out appropriatly.  If you are too lazy to adequatly review the design and specifications, don't complain when you get shait.
 
2013-09-03 04:15:39 PM  

HeadLever: FarkedOver: I got better.

That is an opionion that you may have of yourself.  Others may disagree.


The fact that you think regulating capitalism, is going to solve the problem and you think you have it figured out is why I believe I got better.  The rights of the working class are being stripped back every single year.  If you think that labor is better off than it was in the 50s through the early 80s you're on crack.

By regulating capitalism you only treat one symptom of a dreadful system of exploitation.
 
2013-09-03 04:16:42 PM  

HeadLever: Then you had better fire you specification writer or spend more time doing your damn job. If you want the the good stuff, spec it out appropriatly. If you are too lazy to adequatly review the design and specifications, don't complain when you get shait.


Quit cherry pickin' it ain't always the fault of the spec writer! Some times the owner is just an asshole.

/wow your game is fun to play :) Thanks for teaching me.
 
2013-09-03 04:16:50 PM  

FarkedOver: That is one off the top of my head, I highly doubt its "the one project that went south".


No, there are a fair number that have gone south.  However, there are many more that have gone fine.  Naming one that went south and then pretending that all or most infrastructure projects are like that is a fine example of cherry picking.
 
2013-09-03 04:19:50 PM  

HeadLever: No, there are a fair number that have gone south. However, there are many more that have gone fine. Naming one that went south and then pretending that all or most infrastructure projects are like that is a fine example of cherry picking.


Those projects went great 50 years ago, now they need to be fixed.  They need to be fixed correctly.  I'd rather use the army corp of engineers than any private enterprise to solve the problem.
 
2013-09-03 04:20:13 PM  

FarkedOver: Some times the owner is just an asshole.


That is not a problem with the system.  That is a problem with the owner.   I thought that the indictment was on the system, not crappy personnel.
 
2013-09-03 04:21:34 PM  

HeadLever: FarkedOver: Some times the owner is just an asshole.

That is not a problem with the system.  That is a problem with the owner.   I thought that the indictment was on the system, not crappy personnel.


I was just being snarky.... but apparently that was lost on you. I apologize.
 
2013-09-03 04:24:00 PM  

FarkedOver: HeadLever: Then you had better fire you specification writer or spend more time doing your damn job. If you want the the good stuff, spec it out appropriatly. If you are too lazy to adequatly review the design and specifications, don't complain when you get shait.

Quit cherry pickin' it ain't always the fault of the spec writer! Some times the owner is just an asshole.

/wow your game is fun to play :) Thanks for teaching me.


Yes and when the product does not meet the required specs under a proper contract the jerk owner would probably lose their livelyhood and probably face jailtime for fraud.  Cost plus ruined govt contracting.
 
2013-09-03 04:25:34 PM  

Saiga410: FarkedOver: HeadLever: Then you had better fire you specification writer or spend more time doing your damn job. If you want the the good stuff, spec it out appropriatly. If you are too lazy to adequatly review the design and specifications, don't complain when you get shait.

Quit cherry pickin' it ain't always the fault of the spec writer! Some times the owner is just an asshole.

/wow your game is fun to play :) Thanks for teaching me.

Yes and when the product does not meet the required specs under a proper contract the jerk owner would probably lose their livelyhood and probably face jailtime for fraud.  Cost plus ruined govt contracting.


No necessarily.  If you have enough money you can make any charge go away :)
 
2013-09-03 04:28:30 PM  

FarkedOver: Those projects went great 50 years ago, now they need to be fixed.  They need to be fixed correctly.  I'd rather use the army corp of engineers than any private enterprise to solve the problem.


They are fixed correctly.  Why do you think that ASTM, AWWA, AISC, NSF, andsimliar entities exist?  Why do you think that regulations exist on these works?

Also, don't forget that ACoE uses privatte enterprise all the time for thier projects.  They also never do that actual construction, only the Construction Management.
 
2013-09-03 04:30:52 PM  

FarkedOver: No necessarily. If you have enough money you can make any charge go away :)


You don't know how these public works project work, do you? This type of argument (even if done in a joking fashion) shows how far detached you are from how these projects are done.
 
2013-09-03 04:32:57 PM  

FarkedOver: The fact that you think regulating capitalism, is going to solve the problem and you think you have it figured out is why I believe I got better.


Any system is going to have its problems.  The fact that you think that some other system will be all unicorn farts and rainbow skittles is not living in reality.
 
2013-09-03 04:35:48 PM  

HeadLever: FarkedOver: Please see the Big Dig in Boston.

So the one project that went south negates the thousands of successful projects?  Quit cherry picking.


While we're at it, I'd just like to send a big ol' "FARK YOU!" to Boston once again for screwing up the Big Dig so badly.
 
2013-09-03 04:44:44 PM  

FarkedOver: If you have enough money you can make any charge go away :)


Another point here is that many municipalites don't have an unlimited amount of funds.  They have to work within a *gasp* BUDGET, just like the rest of us average joes.  They get to choose on things like 1) do we want to replace 3 of our old bridges with new ones that are plain-jane and that maybe cuts a few corners, or just 2 that are done with flair 2) should we replace that leaky sewer line down by the river that no one knows about or extend the greenbelt bike path that will be done with ribbon cuttings and much fanfare.
 
2013-09-03 05:33:06 PM  

HeadLever: FarkedOver: That is one off the top of my head, I highly doubt its "the one project that went south".

No, there are a fair number that have gone south.  However, there are many more that have gone fine.  Naming one that went south and then pretending that all or most infrastructure projects are like that is a fine example of cherry picking.


Okay, here's another anecdote: when I was in high school in Phoenix in the early 80s, annual flooding of the Salt River routinely damaged or destroyed one or more of the city bridges that had been built by the private sector.  The several bridges that had been built in the 50s by the Army Corps of Engineers never had problems.
 
2013-09-03 06:31:51 PM  

El Pachuco: Okay, here's another anecdote: when I was in high school in Phoenix in the early 80s, annual flooding of the Salt River routinely damaged or destroyed one or more of the city bridges that had been built by the private sector. The several bridges that had been built in the 50s by the Army Corps of Engineers never had problems.


Again, the ACoE does not build the bridges.  They may design and manage the construction, but they almost always contract out the actual construction to private construction companies.  I am pretty sure that is the same as the city bridge as the city likely did the design themselves (or maybe had a private 3rd party do the engineering).

This sounds like more of a design issue as the city bridge appears to not have enough clearance during flood events.  Also, it could be because the stream characteristics have changed since when the bridge was designed.  Urbanization usually means more runoff and increasted peak flows during heavy rains.
 
2013-09-03 08:45:31 PM  

Barfmaker: ajgeek: The problem of long-term joblessness is best addressed by better training policies, as well as stronger demand, as well as tax reforms to increase work incentives, the organization said.

Absolutely, yes, and aw hell naw! I, for one, am tired of getting (not) trickled on because everything at the top is dammed up and reinforced with security guards posted every square foot.

The tax reforms can refer to useful and smart things such as giving some kind of break to the employer's share of the worker's costs such as health care, employment insurance...I have no idea if you guys even have this stuff.

Anyway, the point being that it's not a stand alone tax break, it's simply a reduction on the hit if they hire someone full time.


That's the key.  You can't give the reward until the employers have done the good behavior.  The "tax cuts will spur hiring" crowd wants to give employers the tax cuts and then just hope that there will be employment.  But that's just silly.  You have to offer the tax cuts as a carrot (or tax increases as a stick would work too, I suppose).  If companies know they can reduce their tax burden by X% if they hire Y number of people, watch them scramble to throw up the "Help Wanted" signs.
 
2013-09-03 09:15:09 PM  

FarkedOver: There should be a new amendment to the U.S. constitution guaranteeing the right to employment.


OK.  You get to work one hour this month.  Me, I'm working my usual 40 a week.
 
2013-09-03 10:00:49 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: FarkedOver: There should be a new amendment to the U.S. constitution guaranteeing the right to employment.

OK.  You get to work one hour this month.  Me, I'm working my usual 40 a week.


For now ...
 
2013-09-03 10:58:58 PM  

HeadLever: El Pachuco: Okay, here's another anecdote: when I was in high school in Phoenix in the early 80s, annual flooding of the Salt River routinely damaged or destroyed one or more of the city bridges that had been built by the private sector. The several bridges that had been built in the 50s by the Army Corps of Engineers never had problems.

Again, the ACoE does not build the bridges.  They may design and manage the construction, but they almost always contract out the actual construction to private construction companies.  I am pretty sure that is the same as the city bridge as the city likely did the design themselves (or maybe had a private 3rd party do the engineering).

This sounds like more of a design issue as the city bridge appears to not have enough clearance during flood events.  Also, it could be because the stream characteristics have changed since when the bridge was designed.  Urbanization usually means more runoff and increasted peak flows during heavy rains.


No sir.  The construction and maintenance of the bridges and surrounding riverbeds are designated ACoE projects, in the past and continuing.

The ACoE bridges predate the majority of the area's urbanization.  Your theories are exactly backwards, as usual.

Arizona has a great many government  public works projects, with many landmark buildings and structures still in use today.  There is absolutely no truth to the bare assertions that government can't create jobs, and can't build as well as the private sector.
 
2013-09-03 11:23:09 PM  

FarkedOver: Neither is a society where people are forced to sell their labor in order for their basic needs.


Excepting totalitarian societies, where are people forced to sell their labor?
 
2013-09-03 11:29:32 PM  

El Pachuco: The construction and maintenance of the bridges and surrounding riverbeds are designated ACoE projects, in the past and continuing.


I'll make you a bet that the ACoE did not do the construction.  Tell me what bridge it is.  Bet would be they designed the span and possibly the river bed.  They likely did the construction management as well.  However, the ACoE does not have a construction arm that works in the States as I believe they are required to do this per standard government contracts to private companies.  I believe that this is law.
 
2013-09-03 11:32:56 PM  

El Pachuco: The construction and maintenance of the bridges and surrounding riverbeds are designated ACoE projects, in the past and continuing.


Point to one project where ACoE was the actual construction company (operator of excavators, cranes, trucks, provider of concrete, steel and asphalt).  Not the construction manager, design consultant, or inspector.

Yes, they are greatly involved in maintenance as well, however, only as an inspection and technical resource.  Again, I am pretty sure that they don't do the rehabilitation work.
 
2013-09-04 12:07:43 AM  

HeadLever: El Pachuco: The construction and maintenance of the bridges and surrounding riverbeds are designated ACoE projects, in the past and continuing.

Point to one project where ACoE was the actual construction company (operator of excavators, cranes, trucks, provider of concrete, steel and asphalt).  Not the construction manager, design consultant, or inspector.

Yes, they are greatly involved in maintenance as well, however, only as an inspection and technical resource.  Again, I am pretty sure that they don't do the rehabilitation work.


You are desperate - desperate - to somehow prove that government projects can't possibly be as good as private sector projects.  To ignore the fact that there are near-infinite examples of free-market projects that turned out to be junk because somebody tried to save a buck (and thus increase profits).

A few minutes' search doesn't turn up a whole lot of details on who turned which wrench on a bridge project in the 1950s, but it really doesn't matter who specifically held the trowel.  You concede that ACoE probably designed the span and possibly the river bed, and likely did the construction management as well, plus QC inspection afterwards.  That sounds like:

FarkedOver: Direct funding and direct oversight by the government of infrastructure projects is the way to go.


NASA doesn't produce every component of their spacecraft either, but they damn well make sure everything is produced to spec.  Government works, and works well - it's weird how well things can turn out when profit isn't a factor.
 
2013-09-04 03:03:44 AM  
We will one day have to reach an end to this notion of economic growth. It's unsustainable for anything, including the global economy, to grow forever. We can't make 5% more widgets than last year every year. There aren't enough resources on the planet. We should be coming up with plans to navigate the transition to population, wealth, and resource stability. No one ever talks about this.
 
2013-09-04 10:44:54 AM  

El Pachuco: You are desperate - desperate - to somehow prove that government projects can't possibly be as good as private sector projects.


No, I am just sure that your assertion that the ACoE constructed the bridge is incorrect. If you would have spent the time to look at my post @ 2013-09-03 04:09:54 PM , you would see that I am defending this type of system goverment based public infrastructure system.  The government does well in many circumstances with identifiying the neeed, dictating the design requirements and criteria, reviwing and specifying equipment needs and sometimes managing the construction.  However, goverment is not really set up do the actual construction very well.  It is not that they couldn't do it, but that they are not as efficient at it as the private sector (plus they don't have to buy all the heavy construction equipment).

To ignore the fact that there are near-infinite examples of free-market projects that turned out to be junk because somebody tried to save a buck (and thus increase profits).

You can find the same issues with government projects as they typically have to stick within a certain budget as well.  This problem is not isloated to just the private sector.


but it really doesn't matter who specifically held the trowel.

For a project to be sucessful, it does matter who held the trowel.  It aslo matters who designed and reviewed the project; it matters who wrote the specifications; it matters who did the inspection; it matters who did the construction.  A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
 
2013-09-04 11:26:29 AM  

HeadLever: Any system is going to have its problems. The fact that you think that some other system will be all unicorn farts and rainbow skittles is not living in reality.


I have never said it would be unicorn farts and rainbow skittles.  The struggle of the working class has NEVER been easy.  But you seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths, so you can believe whatever you will.
 
2013-09-04 11:47:53 AM  

FarkedOver: I have never said it would be unicorn farts and rainbow skittles.


Then why put the words in my mouth that a regulated capitalist system will 'solve the problem'?  You seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths, so you can belive what ever you will.
What I did there.  You didn't see it.
 
2013-09-04 11:54:41 AM  

HeadLever: FarkedOver: I have never said it would be unicorn farts and rainbow skittles.

Then why put the words in my mouth that a regulated capitalist system will 'solve the problem'?  You seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths, so you can belive what ever you will.
What I did there.  You didn't see it.


Well just read your goddamn posts because that is what you espouse in every one of them.
 
2013-09-04 12:23:26 PM  

FarkedOver: Well just read your goddamn posts because that is what you espouse in every one of them.


Strawman.  Go ahead an point out where I said this. I'll wait right here.

I have already agrued the opposite a few post upthread and you even quoted it.  I know that it is shocking that you would choose to ignore this argument so you can continue to prop up that straw filled suit.   I guess that is what I get when I agrue with trolls.
 
2013-09-04 12:49:48 PM  

FarkedOver: GoldSpider: FarkedOver: You want to live in a stable society where people aren't going to guillotine your head, you have to pay for it.

A society where you have to pay to not be killed is not one I'd call "stable".

Neither is a society where people are forced to sell their labor in order for their basic needs.


Hmm maybe the world by its nature is not "stable" and trying to make it so is imposing artificiality no matter how you do it. Maybe "basic needs" naturally need to be earned.

And to the headline, wouldn't the opposite be global communism? Is not the lack of equilibrium what causes economies to exist?
 
2013-09-04 04:08:16 PM  

FarkedOver: HeadLever: FarkedOver: I have never said it would be unicorn farts and rainbow skittles.

Then why put the words in my mouth that a regulated capitalist system will 'solve the problem'?  You seem to enjoy putting words in people's mouths, so you can belive what ever you will.
What I did there.  You didn't see it.

Well just read your goddamn posts because that is what you espouse in every one of them.


You will never ever get HL to admit he was wrong.


i0.kym-cdn.com

I routinely chop him into pieces on Fark, and then he accuses me of running away when I get bored. Like this thread, for instance - he really wants to cling to the idea that, despite admitting that the Army Corps of Engineers indeed gets credit for every important detail in the construction and maintenance of a couple bridges in Phoenix, they don't get that same credit because there's an unproven possibility that private contractors may have been involved at some stage of the construction, even if they were following ACoE designs, supervision and inspections.  What he does there, nobody sees it but him.
 
2013-09-04 06:19:31 PM  

El Pachuco: You will never ever get HL to admit he was wrong.


I am still waiting for him to back his strawman assertion up as I requested.  So far he has been unable or unwilling.  Lets just say that neither one of us should be holding our breath while we wait.


Oh, and don't figure that I am surprised that you also ignored my comment to the contrary.

The really wants to cling to the idea that. . . they don't get that same credit because there's an unproven possibility that private contractors may have been involved at some stage of the construction

Strawman.  Where did I say that they don't (or shouldn't) get the 'same credit'.  I'll wait right here for you to respond.  Again, I won't hold my breath while I wait.

Seems like the only way you two can attempt to argue with me is by propping up strawmen arguments.  If you could change the text in your pic to "STRAWMAN", you would be much more accurate in your braggadocio.
 
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