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(NPR)   Pastor preaching against vaccinations at megachurch, which is now the site of a measles outbreak: "So I'm going to tell you what the facts are and the facts are the facts but then we know the truth, that always overcomes facts"   (npr.org) divider line 354
    More: Followup, Weekend Edition Sunday, vaccinations, outbreaks, measles, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, MMR vaccine, sermons, truth  
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14997 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Sep 2013 at 1:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-01 01:45:22 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: Raw_fishFood: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

Herd immunity works by having everybody who can get vaccinated, well, get vaccinated. By greatly reducing the people who can get sick this protects the people who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like being too young or weak immune systems.

When people don't get vaccinated despite not having any medical reason not to do so it not only makes the people who can't get vaccinated more vulnerable but gives the disease a chance to mutate and infect people who are only vaccinated against the original strain.

Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you.  Perhaps a different god would.


How did you get that from what he wrote? My god that's retarded.
 
2013-09-01 01:45:24 PM  
bigsteve3OOO: Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you. Perhaps a different god would.

I pray to the god of bagel bites, riding mowers, and masturbating with a honey bear. It works.
 
2013-09-01 01:45:31 PM  
Frankly, I'm amazed that TX hasn't earned its own Fark tag yet......
 
2013-09-01 01:45:46 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: Raw_fishFood: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

Herd immunity works by having everybody who can get vaccinated, well, get vaccinated. By greatly reducing the people who can get sick this protects the people who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like being too young or weak immune systems.

When people don't get vaccinated despite not having any medical reason not to do so it not only makes the people who can't get vaccinated more vulnerable but gives the disease a chance to mutate and infect people who are only vaccinated against the original strain.

Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you.  Perhaps a different god would.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-09-01 01:45:48 PM  

theorellior: ThePastafarian: Dinki: So let's get this straight-

Parents refuse vaccinations for their kid, kid doesn't get sick- "See, God protects our children!"

Parents refuse vaccinations for their kid, kid gets sick- "This is Gods will!"

Parents get vaccinations for their kid, kid doesn't get sick- "This is Gods will!"

Parents get vaccinations for their kid, kid gets sick - "It's that evil science!"

Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


And it was said that God created man in his image, and as history has shown, humans can do good and bad things.

Maybe God is just one big human.
 
2013-09-01 01:46:07 PM  
Polio vaccines are off limits too?
 
2013-09-01 01:46:59 PM  

nmrsnr: MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.WRONG.

No, he's right. It has zero affect on the vaccinated population. You pointed out unvaccinated people, though they are unvaccinated by necessity, not by choice.

That's really the point, these parents don't just endanger their children (which is bad enough) but they also endanger people who cannot, for whatever reason, be vaccinated. Their decision has no bearing on me, a healthy vaccinated person. But I'm not so selfish as to only care about myself.


He's not though. Vaccines are not 100% effective. There are people who have been vaccinated but still find themselves susceptible to the disease. They're a minority, but one should never be under the assumption that you cannot get a disease because you've been vaccinated.

There's a reason you need to be revaccinated for many diseases.
 
2013-09-01 01:47:23 PM  

vpb: There actually is a theory called dysgenics that proposes that people are becoming less healthy because harmful mutations don't die out because of modern medicine.


If a species can adopt behaviors that mitigates a mutation's effects, then as far as natural selection is concerned, it isn't harmful.
 
F42
2013-09-01 01:47:27 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: But people who omit vaccinations for whatever reason should only be exposed to vaccinated people therefore no risk.


rtfa
 
2013-09-01 01:48:19 PM  

MithrandirBooga: Benevolent Misanthrope: ThePastafarian: Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

Religion is the pinnacle of circular reasoning.  Since their god is all good, all the good stuff is attributable to him and proof of his goodness.  Since he is all good, all the bad stuff is someone else's fault - usually the victim's, since it's just punishment for their "sins" (i.e., bad decisions and normal imperfection), thus proving their god's goodness.

Seriously, it's the biggest scam in history.  Pretty amazing, actually.


I personally believe the staying-power of Christiantity over most other religions is the whole "You can still go to heaven no matter how many people you murder, just as long as you say you believe in Jesus before you die" bullshiat.

That makes the religion very attractive to lazy people who aren't at all concerned about being good people.


They do not want to learn or live like Christ, they just want to have good seats in Heaven; not make the world a better place for everyone but to make their afterlife better.
 
2013-09-01 01:48:44 PM  

Mentat: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

You know measles isn't the only disease out there, right?  You know people still get bubonic plague, right?


And let's not forget that measles may be an uncomfortable but ultimately non-serious disease for most children, if you contract it as an adult you run a MUCH higher risk of serious, permanent damage, like blindness and sterility.
 
2013-09-01 01:49:01 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.


1) Nobody is pretending that it's the plague.

B) Lethality is not the point at all. The point is, it's a stupidly easy disease to not get. The vaccine is so effective now you basically have a choice of getting measles or not getting measles. They chose... poorly.
 
2013-09-01 01:50:04 PM  

NeverDrunk23: And it was said that God created man in his image, and as history has shown, humans can do good and bad things.

Maybe God is just one big human.


Pastor Copeland obviously believes God is just one big Texan.
 
2013-09-01 01:50:15 PM  

Mentat: vpb: Tigger: The rate of human evolution actually appears to be accelerating. Despite the well-argued claims of a cult comedy's opening credits.

No, It's actual biology, despite the fact that some guy used the idea to make a movie.

Besides, it's not too hard to figure out that someone with a fatal genetic flaw who is able to survive and breed because of modern medicine will pass on his genetic condition instead of becoming a genetic dead end.

You're arguing two completely separate things.  The rate of evolution in the human population has increased, but technology and civilization has also changed the evolutionary parameters under which selection and genetic drift operate.  Natural selection is most definitely still occurring and would actually be predicted to get stronger as the various world populations increasingly intermingle.


And you are missing the point.  No one ever said natural selection (which I think is the wrong term for what humans practice) had to be good for the population.  For every existent animal on earth, there are dozens of extinct ones.  If we assume the classic definition of natural selection, then the strongest "most successful" BREEDERS are the ones pushing evolution.  In many populations, that isn't the one most capable of surviving, as evidenced by extinction.  Furthermore, if we are talking about humans, the people who have the most kids are not necessarily the most adapted to survival.  In point of fact, if you want to go by socio-economic station, they are the least adapted.

I farking hate that movie, because it essentially turns what was an entirely logical conclusion into a dick and fart joke, which makes it very easy for people to dismiss it.  Despite the FACT that it's not inaccurate.

Is evolution happening faster in humans, yes because we are breeding faster, this isn't difficult to understand.  The part you seem to be missing is, evolution isn't necessarily a good thing.  The name implies getting better, but that's not the reality.
 
2013-09-01 01:50:38 PM  

F42: vpb: There actually is a theory called dysgenics Naziism that proposes that people are becoming less healthy because harmful mutations don't die out because of modern medicine.

The phrase "life unworthy of life" (in "Lebensunwertes Leben") was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanized" title="Euthanized" class="mw-redirect">euthanized". The term included people with serious medical problems and those considered grossly inferior according to the [1] The euthanasia program was known as


In the long run, I believe the worst thing the Nazis did may have been to destroy the nascent eugenics movement.

Divorced from ideas of racial superiority, eugenics makes sense. But suggest anything having to do with improving the genetic fitness of our species, even based on purely objective criteria like stamina or immune function, and everyone screams "OMG HITLER!!1!1!"
 
2013-09-01 01:50:46 PM  

olderbudnoweiser: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 634x640]


Came for this.
 
2013-09-01 01:50:49 PM  

lokis_mentor: It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.


We have to get rid of high concentrations of lunatics and child molesters somehow. If the Janet Reno method is the best, let's use it.
 
2013-09-01 01:51:21 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


Vaccinated people are less likely than unvaccinated people to become infected once exposed. If that likelihood dropped to zero, then bigsteve3000's statement would be true. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

/ I apologize for responding straight, instead of making a joke answer to what may well have been a joke post
 
2013-09-01 01:51:31 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you.  Perhaps a different god would.


Pretty sure this story is evidence against "praying to god" being an effective alternative to vaccination.
 
2013-09-01 01:51:36 PM  

Infernalist: lokis_mentor: It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.

90% of this crowd won't get your reference without googling Janet Reno.


I did. Lol'd too.
 
2013-09-01 01:54:32 PM  
Ban these people from all public services immediately.  There is no reason to compromise herd immunity for the sake of these people's self-destructive beliefs.  It's not worth the deaths of innocent children just to avoid hurting the easily-bruised feelings of the Faithful.

Let them form a leper colony and pray away the measles if they like, but contain them and keep everyone else safe.
 
2013-09-01 01:54:42 PM  
fark you, you stupid, mouth breathing, moronic, yearning-for-the-dark-ages dipshiat. Seriously. I hope you die from a horrific disease.

Now that I've let off some steam, I'd like to note that I first read Dr. Jason Terk's name as Dr. Jason Twerk. *shakes fist at media*
 
2013-09-01 01:55:51 PM  

Raw_fishFood: bigsteve3OOO: Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you.  Perhaps a different god would.

Pretty sure this story is evidence against "praying to god" being an effective alternative to vaccination.


It's as effective as rich ass NIMBY anti-vaccers who abstain so their precious snowflakes don't get autism.
 
2013-09-01 01:57:07 PM  

Tigger: If you're actually interested this article provides a very superficial overview of the complex interplay between genetic cultural and environmental interplay that is positively affecting the rate of human evolution.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=culture-speeds-up-h um an-evolution


There goes any hope I might have that comments on the Scientific American site would not be dumb as fark. Interesting read, though.
 
2013-09-01 01:58:37 PM  
The thing that gets me is that these people are all too happy to put their trust in the "science" that vaccines cause autism, while ignoring the actual science that says otherwise. Just like with the Bible, they pick and choose only the parts they like.
 
2013-09-01 01:58:50 PM  
Dear Christians:

Immunization prevents more diseases than prayer ever will.  Insulin treats more diabetes than prayer ever will.  Chemotherapy has cured more cancers than prayer ever will.

Please, please, please educate yourselves for the sake of your own children.
 
2013-09-01 02:00:34 PM  
Pray to God but row to shore.
 
2013-09-01 02:00:36 PM  
When a liberal celebrity does it: "Ooh lets examine the science, it's good to question big Pharma!"

When a pastor does it: "Haha, dumb hillbillies, they dont bieve in science and modern medicine, what a bunch of rubes!"
 
2013-09-01 02:00:44 PM  

Lachwen: And let's not forget that measles may be an uncomfortable but ultimately non-serious disease for most children, if you contract it as an adult you run a MUCH higher risk of serious, permanent damage, like blindness and sterility.


I think it can blind or deafen the young also.
 
gja
2013-09-01 02:01:10 PM  

Tigger: Benevolent Misanthrope: Earlier this week crowds flooded in for regular services. Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand, and said she's not worried.
 

"Because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says. "There's no place for fear."

"The concerns we have had are primarily with very young children who have family history of autism and with bundling too many immunizations at one time," she [the pastor] said.
 

"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he [pastor's father, noted nutbag Kenneth Copland] said.

And Christians wonder why the rest of us think of them as a bunch of servile f*ckwits.

Ideas as stupid as these eventually eliminate the individuals who support them. It just takes too farking long.


Not all of us who identify as Christian are so universally idiotic. Please don't voice your opinion and facts too loudly, though.
The reasonable bunch of us are standing by hoping the ignoramus-oriented lot will eventually kill themselves off due to their stupidity and lack of vision.
If you make too much sense or too much noise they may catch on.......OK, probably not but still.
I say:
enemiesofreason.co.uk
 
2013-09-01 02:01:19 PM  

i upped my meds-up yours: NeverDrunk23: And it was said that God created man in his image, and as history has shown, humans can do good and bad things.

Maybe God is just one big human.

Pastor Copeland obviously believes God is just one big Texan.


I doubt there is any possible way to insult God worse than that.
 
2013-09-01 02:01:21 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Mister Peejay: 150-200 years ago, I probably wouldn't have lived past childhood, or if I did, I would have been labeled a moron or something because I can't see six inches in front of my face.

/happy little cyborg

You do realize that 150-200 years ago, glasses did exist, right? They aren't necessarily a modern invention.


You do realize that, 150-200 years ago, the vast number of people who'd need glasses could never afford them.
 
2013-09-01 02:02:48 PM  

Mentat: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

You know measles isn't the only disease out there, right?  You know people still get bubonic plague, right?


Is your point that the Bubonic Plague can be prevented with the Measles vaccin? Or is your point that the Bubonic Plague is treated with antibiotics these days? If you have a point, I'd like to know about it.
 
2013-09-01 02:03:05 PM  

r1niceboy: It's like tying my dog up to a fire hydrant, made of bacon, next to a busy highway. It'll be all happiness, but will still all end in tears.


sunglasses.name
 
2013-09-01 02:03:24 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: When a liberal celebrity does it: "Ooh lets examine the science, it's good to question big Pharma!"


Who is embracing this argument?  I've never seen anyone defend an anti-vaxxer celebrity other than another anti-vaxxer.  You're just making stuff up so you can complain about being persecuted.
 
2013-09-01 02:03:46 PM  

Tigger: Benevolent Misanthrope: Earlier this week crowds flooded in for regular services. Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand, and said she's not worried.
 

"Because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says. "There's no place for fear."

"The concerns we have had are primarily with very young children who have family history of autism and with bundling too many immunizations at one time," she [the pastor] said.
 

"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he [pastor's father, noted nutbag Kenneth Copland] said.

And Christians wonder why the rest of us think of them as a bunch of servile f*ckwits.

Ideas as stupid as these eventually eliminate the individuals who support them. It just takes too farking long.


"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right." - Mark Twain
 
2013-09-01 02:06:03 PM  

limeyfellow: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

That is because we have vaccines. Before then it had a 5% death rate. There was a 33% rate of complications including pneumonia, very deadly before antibiotics, hearing loss, and seizures.


Yeah, because in those days, there were no other complicating factors to the death rate of Measles. The truth is, we don't know what the death rate of Measles is in the modern day Western world, because we hardly see it. But I would bet dollars to donuts that it's not going to be 5%. We're just too good for that, nowadays.
 
2013-09-01 02:06:28 PM  

MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

WRONG.

FTFA:

"Typically, it's the fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR vaccine may have in some way contributed to the epidemic of autism - which has clearly been shown not to be true in study after study," Offit says. He says those who chose to skip vaccines cause serious ripple effects.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the United States who can't get vaccinated because they're undergoing medical treatment or are too young, for example.


I'm one of those folks who keeps getting MMR boosters, but my titers keep saying I'm not immune to measles (which is why I keep getting boosters).  I'd be pissed as hell if some Fundie inbred gave me measles despite my best efforts to prevent it from happening.
 
2013-09-01 02:07:35 PM  
Wait til they get their wave of pertussis and they have babies dying horrific deaths. That'll learn 'em. Or maybe diphtheria. Diphtheria's pretty farking biblical.

If you've got any concerns about vaccines, do a GIS for diphtheria and then re-consider the validity of your concerns. Also be prepared to be haunted by the image of a "pseudomembrane" forever after.
 
2013-09-01 02:07:47 PM  

Lachwen: Mentat: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

You know measles isn't the only disease out there, right?  You know people still get bubonic plague, right?

And let's not forget that measles may be an uncomfortable but ultimately non-serious disease for most children, if you contract it as an adult you run a MUCH higher risk of serious, permanent damage, like blindness and sterility.


Sure. But that's more of a risk you run in an almost-fully-vaccinated society, than in a hardly-vaccinated-at-all society. Because in the latter environment, you would have had it as a child. So I would contend that you're arguing against yourself here.
 
2013-09-01 02:08:26 PM  
I heard the quote in the headline on NPR this morning... The rest of the family wondered what I was yelling about.
 
2013-09-01 02:08:49 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

1) Nobody is pretending that it's the plague.

B) Lethality is not the point at all. The point is, it's a stupidly easy disease to not get. The vaccine is so effective now you basically have a choice of getting measles or not getting measles. They chose... poorly.


Eh.. which was my point as well?
 
2013-09-01 02:08:52 PM  

Raw_fishFood: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

Herd immunity works by having everybody who can get vaccinated, well, get vaccinated. By greatly reducing the people who can get sick this protects the people who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like being too young or weak immune systems.

When people don't get vaccinated despite not having any medical reason not to do so it not only makes the people who can't get vaccinated more vulnerable but gives the disease a chance to mutate and infect people who are only vaccinated against the original strain.


Thank you so much for posting this. I am always amazed by how many people show up in these threads who don't understand this.

Sure Darwin may take out the stupids, but a lot of undeserving people are gonna suffer too.
 
2013-09-01 02:10:15 PM  
"truth overcomes facts" is about the most perfect encapsulation of religion I could ever imagine.
 
2013-09-01 02:10:19 PM  

Saul T. Balzac: I'd be pissed as hell if some Fundie inbred gave me measles despite my best efforts to prevent it from happening.


The thing is, anti-vac isn't just the Fundies.

I understand why the Fark wants to label anti-vac as such (since Fundies are like Hitlar or whatever), but avoiding vaccines is hardly confined to the retard fringe of the Xian Fundie movement.
 
2013-09-01 02:10:27 PM  

buzzcut73: rohar: The hell with the vaccination issue, how is ANYTHING in the retrograde, flat state of Texas named "mountain" anything?

I don't know about the area the church is in, but there are mountains in the El Paso area.



Those mountains belong to Las Cruces, dammit.  You better be grateful that New Mexico lets you use 'em!
 
2013-09-01 02:12:57 PM  

Gergesa: cause I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says.

I think she may be a worshiper of Khorne.


I used to be, but after Follow the Lheadere they just went to shiat.
 
2013-09-01 02:13:16 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: Lachwen: Mentat: Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.

You know measles isn't the only disease out there, right?  You know people still get bubonic plague, right?

And let's not forget that measles may be an uncomfortable but ultimately non-serious disease for most children, if you contract it as an adult you run a MUCH higher risk of serious, permanent damage, like blindness and sterility.

Sure. But that's more of a risk you run in an almost-fully-vaccinated society, than in a hardly-vaccinated-at-all society. Because in the latter environment, you would have had it as a child. So I would contend that you're arguing against yourself here.


Vaccinated people HAVE had it as a child.
 
2013-09-01 02:13:48 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: Eh.. which was my point as well?


So, what, you just felt the need to chime in to make sure nobody did what nobody was doing (behaving as though this was some sort of Captain Trips outbreak)?
 
2013-09-01 02:15:19 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: When a liberal celebrity does it: "Ooh lets examine the science, it's good to question big Pharma!"

When a pastor does it: "Haha, dumb hillbillies, they dont bieve in science and modern medicine, what a bunch of rubes!"


Pretty sure in both cases the anti-vaccination person is usually labeled a "Dumb motherfarker."
 
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