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(NPR)   Pastor preaching against vaccinations at megachurch, which is now the site of a measles outbreak: "So I'm going to tell you what the facts are and the facts are the facts but then we know the truth, that always overcomes facts"   (npr.org) divider line 354
    More: Followup, Weekend Edition Sunday, vaccinations, outbreaks, measles, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, MMR vaccine, sermons, truth  
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14982 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Sep 2013 at 1:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-09-01 01:25:53 PM  
The hell with the vaccination issue, how is ANYTHING in the retrograde, flat state of Texas named "mountain" anything?
 
2013-09-01 01:26:04 PM  
and he preaches a prosperity gospel message, why does this not surprise me
 
2013-09-01 01:26:18 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


WRONG.

FTFA:

"Typically, it's the fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR vaccine may have in some way contributed to the epidemic of autism - which has clearly been shown not to be true in study after study," Offit says. He says those who chose to skip vaccines cause serious ripple effects.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the United States who can't get vaccinated because they're undergoing medical treatment or are too young, for example.

 
2013-09-01 01:27:15 PM  

ThePastafarian: Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"


Religion is the pinnacle of circular reasoning.  Since their god is all good, all the good stuff is attributable to him and proof of his goodness.  Since he is all good, all the bad stuff is someone else's fault - usually the victim's, since it's just punishment for their "sins" (i.e., bad decisions and normal imperfection), thus proving their god's goodness.

Seriously, it's the biggest scam in history.  Pretty amazing, actually.
 
2013-09-01 01:27:20 PM  

gilgigamesh: "So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.
I love, love, love that that is an actual quote.
You just can't write self-parody that unconsciously witty, You just can't.


I came in here to see who latched on to that.

You are right. The only other story I heard that came near it was during the debate, years ago, to introduce classes in Spanish at a local school. Some old lady stood up and waved a bible in the air and said, "English was good enough for Jesus and the Prophets. It should be good enough for us."
 
2013-09-01 01:27:38 PM  

ThePastafarian: Dinki: So let's get this straight-

Parents refuse vaccinations for their kid, kid doesn't get sick- "See, God protects our children!"

Parents refuse vaccinations for their kid, kid gets sick- "This is Gods will!"

Parents get vaccinations for their kid, kid doesn't get sick- "This is Gods will!"

Parents get vaccinations for their kid, kid gets sick - "It's that evil science!"

Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
 
2013-09-01 01:28:15 PM  
For reference, here's how creators of vaccines were viewed around a century ago:

farm6.staticflickr.com

It's one of those "it's so effective, people take for granted that it is what's working" phenomena. Like "there's no lead in my water, I guess we don't need a clean water act."
 
2013-09-01 01:29:08 PM  

MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

WRONG.

FTFA:

"Typically, it's the fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR vaccine may have in some way contributed to the epidemic of autism - which has clearly been shown not to be true in study after study," Offit says. He says those who chose to skip vaccines cause serious ripple effects.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the United States who can't get vaccinated because they're undergoing medical treatment or are too young, for example.


But people who omit vaccinations for whatever reason should only be exposed to vaccinated people therefore no risk.
 
2013-09-01 01:29:50 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


If god is effective then a few people not believing in god should have zero effect...
 
2013-09-01 01:30:26 PM  
cause I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says.

I think she may be a worshiper of Khorne.
 
2013-09-01 01:30:33 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


Herd immunity works by having everybody who can get vaccinated, well, get vaccinated. By greatly reducing the people who can get sick this protects the people who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like being too young or weak immune systems.

When people don't get vaccinated despite not having any medical reason not to do so it not only makes the people who can't get vaccinated more vulnerable but gives the disease a chance to mutate and infect people who are only vaccinated against the original strain.
 
2013-09-01 01:31:03 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: ThePastafarian: Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

Religion is the pinnacle of circular reasoning.  Since their god is all good, all the good stuff is attributable to him and proof of his goodness.  Since he is all good, all the bad stuff is someone else's fault - usually the victim's, since it's just punishment for their "sins" (i.e., bad decisions and normal imperfection), thus proving their god's goodness.

Seriously, it's the biggest scam in history.  Pretty amazing, actually.



I personally believe the staying-power of Christiantity over most other religions is the whole "You can still go to heaven no matter how many people you murder, just as long as you say you believe in Jesus before you die" bullshiat.

That makes the religion very attractive to lazy people who aren't at all concerned about being good people.
 
2013-09-01 01:31:09 PM  

rohar: The hell with the vaccination issue, how is ANYTHING in the retrograde, flat state of Texas named "mountain" anything?


you've not looked at a topology map of the state have you.

now north Texas,I could argue mt anything is a misnomer, but Texas as a state does have mountains.
 
2013-09-01 01:31:17 PM  

Gergesa: cause I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says.

I think she may be a worshiper of Khorne.


MORE BLOOD FOR MY KHORNE FLAKES.
 
2013-09-01 01:31:46 PM  

rohar: The hell with the vaccination issue, how is ANYTHING in the retrograde, flat state of Texas named "mountain" anything?


I don't know about the area the church is in, but there are mountains in the El Paso area.
 
2013-09-01 01:31:55 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.


You know measles isn't the only disease out there, right?  You know people still get bubonic plague, right?
 
2013-09-01 01:32:00 PM  
Things will really get interesting when we start to take matters into our own hands at the design level, DNA-wise.  Tons of fairly simple DNA mods are just waiting to be made, I'm betting.  Turn on all sorts of suppressed traits.  Muscle growth/density alone should be an easy one to crack, future humans should all be at least as strong as chimpanzees.
 
2013-09-01 01:32:15 PM  
ThePastafarian:
Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"


this is why I completely lost my faith, after seeing a family member battle ovarian cancer for 4 years. no one should have to go through that level of suffering, regardless of the final outcome.
 
2013-09-01 01:32:25 PM  

MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.WRONG.


No, he's right. It has zero affect on the vaccinated population. You pointed out unvaccinated people, though they are unvaccinated by necessity, not by choice.

That's really the point, these parents don't just endanger their children (which is bad enough) but they also endanger people who cannot, for whatever reason, be vaccinated. Their decision has no bearing on me, a healthy vaccinated person. But I'm not so selfish as to only care about myself.
 
2013-09-01 01:32:51 PM  
The truth is that you got your facts wrong.
 
2013-09-01 01:33:20 PM  
It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.
 
2013-09-01 01:33:29 PM  
It's almost like Someone is trying to tell them something.

And that something is likely "modern medicine".
 
2013-09-01 01:34:34 PM  

lokis_mentor: It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.


90% of this crowd won't get your reference without googling Janet Reno.
 
2013-09-01 01:35:56 PM  
Clinicians 1:18

For the teaching of the facts are to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of science.
 
2013-09-01 01:36:22 PM  
On the one hand, this is farking hilarious. Enjoy your preventable diseases, you stupid pieces of shiat.

On the other hand, if my kid got measles because some Jesus-freaks decided not to vaccinate, I might be inclined to exercise my second amendment rights at their next congregation.
 
2013-09-01 01:37:08 PM  

dumbobruni: ThePastafarian:
Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

this is why I completely lost my faith, after seeing a family member battle ovarian cancer for 4 years. no one should have to go through that level of suffering, regardless of the final outcome.


Sorry it took that. But welcome to reality.
 
2013-09-01 01:37:11 PM  

MithrandirBooga: Benevolent Misanthrope: ThePastafarian: Something good happens: "This was the work of God"

Something bad happens: "The Lord works in mysterious ways"

Religion is the pinnacle of circular reasoning.  Since their god is all good, all the good stuff is attributable to him and proof of his goodness.  Since he is all good, all the bad stuff is someone else's fault - usually the victim's, since it's just punishment for their "sins" (i.e., bad decisions and normal imperfection), thus proving their god's goodness.

Seriously, it's the biggest scam in history.  Pretty amazing, actually.


I personally believe the staying-power of Christiantity over most other religions is the whole "You can still go to heaven no matter how many people you murder, just as long as you say you believe in Jesus before you die" bullshiat.

That makes the religion very attractive to lazy people who aren't at all concerned about being good people.


the lazy people usually miss the boat as well, if there was an actual repentance yea, that's biblical, I mean look at the thieves on the other crosses with Jesus. but a person who does a conversion for a chance to get our of trouble, look at their life afterwards, sadly they usually didn't change, they just started using a bible as a new tactic
 
2013-09-01 01:37:19 PM  
Infernalist: lokis_mentor: It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.

90% of this crowd won't get your reference without googling Janet Reno.


90% of this crowd will fail to see how a dance party will help.
 
2013-09-01 01:37:33 PM  

Tigger: Ideas as stupid as these eventually eliminate the individuals who support them. It just takes too farking long.


The problem is that, especially with stuff like infectious diseases, these morons put the rest of us at risk.
 
2013-09-01 01:38:33 PM  

sno man: Benevolent Misanthrope: Earlier this week crowds flooded in for regular services. Rose Mwangi had her Bible in hand, and said she's not worried.
 

"Because I know Jesus is a healer, so I know he's covered us with the blood," Mwangi says. "There's no place for fear."

"The concerns we have had are primarily with very young children who have family history of autism and with bundling too many immunizations at one time," she [the pastor] said.
 

"You don't take the word of the guy that's trying to give the shot about what's good and what isn't," he [pastor's father, noted nutbag Kenneth Copland] said.

And Christians wonder why the rest of us think of them as a bunch of servile f*ckwits.

Funny how the take the word of the Pastor, though.


Well, the Pastor offers them truth. The medics just offer pesky, dirty facts.
 
2013-09-01 01:39:30 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


In a small, tightly-knit community like this church? The effectiveness of herd immunity in a community of a thousand is far more greatly impacted by a dozen holdouts than in a population of millions. Ever notice that, where there's a cluster of anti-vaxxers, there also tends to be am outbreak of diseases like this? That's what the breakdown of herd immunity looks like.

The vaccine was so effective that we'd completely eradicated measles in the US. Then the farking anti-vaxxer morons came along and ruined it. Good job, idiots.
 
2013-09-01 01:39:46 PM  

nmrsnr: MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.WRONG.

No, he's right. It has zero affect on the vaccinated population. You pointed out unvaccinated people, though they are unvaccinated by necessity, not by choice.

That's really the point, these parents don't just endanger their children (which is bad enough) but they also endanger people who cannot, for whatever reason, be vaccinated. Their decision has no bearing on me, a healthy vaccinated person. But I'm not so selfish as to only care about myself.



When you're all done feeling superior, you might want to look up how vaccines actually work, and why the bolded part isn't true.
 
2013-09-01 01:39:50 PM  
Okay, let me see if I can get this straight.  In this scenario, the facts are the known knowns, but the truth is the known unknowns.  So until we know the known unknowns, we can't trust the known knowns.  And Pastor Copeland clearly knowns the known unknowns, and he's trying to teach us that he knows what we don't know about the known knowns.   Capisce?

//This has been another episode of Conservative Logic.
 
2013-09-01 01:40:53 PM  
Muthafarking public health, how does it work?

Texas. I knew it before I clicked.
 
2013-09-01 01:40:58 PM  
On the bright side, this would be a great reality show:  "Tard Circus," where several believers test their faith by swimming in infected blood, eating various contaminated bread, and seeing if they can take a bullet to the face to see how much they love God.  And if they catch something/die, then it's their fault and it's some sin that the announcer, safe in a plastic bubble, can make up on the spot.

It's much better than electing these sad idiots to any positions of power, really.
 
2013-09-01 01:41:23 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.


If the anti-vac people were spread evenly throughout the population, it wouldn't be a big deal.  But as shown in the article, when they congregate, they create an incubator population where the disease can thrive and evolve, possibly to the point of becoming resistant to the vaccine.  That puts everyone at risk.
 
2013-09-01 01:41:45 PM  

Raw_fishFood: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

Herd immunity works by having everybody who can get vaccinated, well, get vaccinated. By greatly reducing the people who can get sick this protects the people who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, like being too young or weak immune systems.

When people don't get vaccinated despite not having any medical reason not to do so it not only makes the people who can't get vaccinated more vulnerable but gives the disease a chance to mutate and infect people who are only vaccinated against the original strain.


Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you.  Perhaps a different god would.
 
2013-09-01 01:42:04 PM  

gilgigamesh: "So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.

I love, love, love that that is an actual quote.

You just can't write self-parody that unconsciously witty, You just can't.


What the good Reverend Snotbrains here has done is actually quite cunning. He applied the rules of politics to science. In politics, you can tell people the facts - the verifiable knowledge - without revealing the truth of your intents, goals, motivations, etc. In science, the facts ARE the truth. Everything else is spin.
 
2013-09-01 01:42:30 PM  

gilgigamesh: "So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.

I love, love, love that that is an actual quote.

You just can't write self-parody that unconsciously witty, You just can't.


Maybe God's plan involves using these people as an example for everyone else: 'Don't be this stupid.'
 
F42
2013-09-01 01:42:38 PM  

vpb: There actually is a theory called dysgenics Naziism that proposes that people are becoming less healthy because harmful mutations don't die out because of modern medicine.


The phrase "life unworthy of life" (in "Lebensunwertes Leben") was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanized" title="Euthanized" class="mw-redirect">euthanized". The term included people with serious medical problems and those considered grossly inferior according to the [1] The euthanasia program was known as
 
2013-09-01 01:43:05 PM  

Mister Peejay: 150-200 years ago, I probably wouldn't have lived past childhood, or if I did, I would have been labeled a moron or something because I can't see six inches in front of my face.

/happy little cyborg


You do realize that 150-200 years ago, glasses did exist, right? They aren't necessarily a modern invention.
 
2013-09-01 01:43:06 PM  

Tigger: We've known for years that population level genetic variations cannot be sufficiently explained by a simple 'fittest phenotype survives" approach: Kin selection, reciprocal altruism and cooperation all have an impact, and that's just for starters.


This is, therefore, to complex for anyone to understand except for you, which make you the owner of this thread, right?

Get your shots, imbeciles.
 
2013-09-01 01:43:12 PM  
I just look at this as a lifeguard at the gene pool.
 
2013-09-01 01:43:14 PM  

lokis_mentor: It's a church in Texas.  Someone call Janet Reno. She'll fix it.


Hey, did you catch the latest episode of Friends?
 
2013-09-01 01:43:47 PM  

MithrandirBooga: I personally believe the staying-power of Christiantity over most other religions is the whole "You can still go to heaven no matter how many people you murder, just as long as you say you believe in Jesus before you die" bullshiat.

That makes the religion very attractive to lazy people who aren't at all concerned about being good people.


*BING BING BING* We have a winner!
 
2013-09-01 01:44:00 PM  

nmrsnr: MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.WRONG.

No, he's right. It has zero affect on the vaccinated population. You pointed out unvaccinated people, though they are unvaccinated by necessity, not by choice.

That's really the point, these parents don't just endanger their children (which is bad enough) but they also endanger people who cannot, for whatever reason, be vaccinated. Their decision has no bearing on me, a healthy vaccinated person. But I'm not so selfish as to only care about myself.


Vaccines aren't 100% effective. It's possible to contract a disease for which you've been vaccinated, just much less likely. Herd immunity works because even a marginally effective vaccine, if applied to an entire population, will drastically reduce each individuals likelihood of encountering someone carrying the pathogen being vaccinated against.
 
2013-09-01 01:44:23 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: Seems like praying to your god of science has not helped you. Perhaps a different god would.


Seriously?
 
2013-09-01 01:44:24 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: You don't die from Measles. Or well, hardly anyone dies from Measles. I mean, my kids are vaccinated as well, but certain things in modern day medicine are simply luxury, and that's not bad. But at least be so fair as to acknowledge that, and let's not pretend some parents are complicit in causing the Second Plague here.


That is because we have vaccines. Before then it had a 5% death rate. There was a 33% rate of complications including pneumonia, very deadly before antibiotics, hearing loss, and seizures.
 
F42
2013-09-01 01:44:42 PM  

vpb: Besides, it's not too hard to figure out that someone with a fatal genetic flaw who is able to survive and breed because of modern medicine


...does not, therefore, have a fatal flaw. By definition.
 
2013-09-01 01:45:16 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

WRONG.

FTFA:

"Typically, it's the fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR vaccine may have in some way contributed to the epidemic of autism - which has clearly been shown not to be true in study after study," Offit says. He says those who chose to skip vaccines cause serious ripple effects.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the United States who can't get vaccinated because they're undergoing medical treatment or are too young, for example.

But people who omit vaccinations for whatever reason should only be exposed to vaccinated people therefore no risk.



You must be trolling, because nobody can possibly be this stupid.

bigsteve3OOO: MithrandirBooga: bigsteve3OOO: If vaccines are effective then a few people not getting them should have zero effect on the rest of the vaccinated population.

WRONG.

FTFA:

"Typically, it's the fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR vaccine may have in some way contributed to the epidemic of autism - which has clearly been shown not to be true in study after study," Offit says. He says those who chose to skip vaccines cause serious ripple effects.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the United States who can't get vaccinated because they're undergoing medical treatment or are too young, for example.

But people who omit vaccinations for whatever reason should only be exposed to vaccinated people therefore no risk.


0/10. I did not enjoy my trolling experience with this troll at all. I would not utilize his services again. Caveat Emptor.
 
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