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(Think Progress)   News: Violent felon neo-Nazi arrested for amassing personal arsenal of 18 guns and 40000 rounds. Fark: Was originally busted for trafficking in counterfeit sports apparel   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 331
    More: Scary, Nazis, voluntary manslaughter, Jewish Federation  
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4345 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Aug 2013 at 2:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-30 02:07:11 PM
We take our sports serious here
 
2013-08-30 02:08:02 PM
Responsible gun owner.
 
2013-08-30 02:08:34 PM
"Arsenal" != 18 guns
 
2013-08-30 02:09:16 PM
I'd grow to hate the world too if I lived in Ohio.
 
2013-08-30 02:09:43 PM
Eighteen is an "arsenal" now?

Also, this is absolutely false:

they can obtain guns through a straw purchaser that law enforcement cannot track because any records revealing the purchaser's activities would have been destroyed.

All firearms purchased though an FFL must have a Form 4473 filled out, and the dealer *MUST* keep that form, and the dealer also has to keep a record of the transaction in a "bound book" (so that pages ripped out are noticeable).  If the dealer destroys those records, he's guilty of a federal felony himself.

They can absolutely find out the original retail source of all of those guns.  Period.
 
2013-08-30 02:09:54 PM

MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns


For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?
 
2013-08-30 02:11:22 PM
40k rounds?  That's it?  I think I have that just in my trunk.  Oh well.  Whatever the media needs to say to whip people into a terrified anti-gun frenzy, I guess.
 
2013-08-30 02:11:54 PM

dittybopper: Eighteen is an "arsenal" now?


For one violent racist felon? Yes.

they can obtain guns through a straw purchaser that law enforcement cannot track because any records revealing the purchaser's activities would have been destroyed.

All firearms purchased though an FFL must have a Form 4473 filled out, and the dealer *MUST* keep that form, and the dealer also has to keep a record of the transaction in a "bound book" (so that pages ripped out are noticeable).  If the dealer destroys those records, he's guilty of a federal felony himself.

They can absolutely find out the original retail source of all of those guns.  Period.


You should totally email the prosecutor, apparently this is an easy investigation.
 
2013-08-30 02:12:40 PM

tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?


I just looked it up.  The usage is wrong.  An "arsenal" is a government storage facility for weapons, arms and armor.  It would be like having a 18 books and saying you have a "textbook distribution center".
 
2013-08-30 02:13:00 PM
...any connected to the crime are still scratching their heads over how an ex-felon with ties to white supremacist groups was able to get his hands on so many guns...

It's no mystery. Private sales and gun shows avoid the background checks intended to rob freedom-loving Nazis of their Constitutional rights.

The NRA and the GOP work very hard to preserve the 2nd Amendment rights of this oppressed minority.
 
2013-08-30 02:14:24 PM

dittybopper: Eighteen is an "arsenal" now?

Also, this is absolutely false:

they can obtain guns through a straw purchaser that law enforcement cannot track because any records revealing the purchaser's activities would have been destroyed.

All firearms purchased though an FFL must have a Form 4473 filled out, and the dealer *MUST* keep that form, and the dealer also has to keep a record of the transaction in a "bound book" (so that pages ripped out are noticeable).  If the dealer destroys those records, he's guilty of a federal felony himself.

They can absolutely find out the original retail source of all of those guns.  Period.


That would require actually exerting an effort to actually investigate.
 
2013-08-30 02:14:54 PM
in before the gun fetishists,,oops too late.
 
2013-08-30 02:15:20 PM

tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?


Arsenal - where firearms are manufactured.

Armory - where firearms are stored.

"Arsenal" is one of those buzz words used by politicians, journalists, and other dishonest folk to provoke an emotional reaction.

See also:

www.unc.edu
 
2013-08-30 02:15:38 PM
Who the hell cares if he has 18 guns or 500? You can only shoot one at a time or maybe two at a time if you don't care about hitting anything.
 
2013-08-30 02:16:52 PM

Hobodeluxe: in before the gun fetishists,,oops too late.


He's a felon. Felon's can't have guns. Therefore he's not a responsible gun owner. There, I've destroyed your strawman.
 
2013-08-30 02:16:55 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Who the hell cares if he has 18 guns or 500? You can only shoot one at a time or maybe two at a time if you don't care about hitting anything.


Totally, and this is why people should only ever be allowed to own one.
 
2013-08-30 02:17:38 PM

tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?


You need at least 50 guns and 150,000 rounds on you at all times to be a real man.
 
2013-08-30 02:17:45 PM

tetsoushima: tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?

I just looked it up.  The usage is wrong.  An "arsenal" is a government storage facility for weapons, arms and armor.  It would be like having a 18 books and saying you have a "textbook distribution centerinin

you need a better dictionary. Every one I check says "any store of weapons" as an alternative usage.
 
2013-08-30 02:17:47 PM

dittybopper: Eighteen is an "arsenal" now?


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arsenal

I'm pro-gun ownership, but come on! 18 doesn't qualify in your book? What would you consider an arsenal?

 Also, this is absolutely false:

they can obtain guns through a straw purchaser that law enforcement cannot track because any records revealing the purchaser's activities would have been destroyed.

All firearms purchased though an FFL must have a Form 4473 filled out, and the dealer *MUST* keep that form, and the dealer also has to keep a record of the transaction in a "bound book" (so that pages ripped out are noticeable).  If the dealer destroys those records, he's guilty of a federal felony himself.

They can absolutely find out the original retail source of all of those guns.  Period.


If they're made through a straw purchaser, how?

Felon <---no paperwork---> Straw purchaser <---paperwork---> FFL

Methinks you've gone off the deep end, dude. Reel it back; reasonable gun owners need people like you!
 
2013-08-30 02:19:00 PM

MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns


I was at Dicks Sporting Goods the other day and they had hundreds of rifles and shotguns!!!
 
2013-08-30 02:19:22 PM

OldManDownDRoad: tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?

Arsenal - where firearms are manufactured.

Armory - where firearms are stored.

"Arsenal" is one of those buzz words used by politicians, journalists, and other dishonest folk to provoke an emotional reaction.

See also:

[www.unc.edu image 576x480]


So when the comic books talk about "the Punisher's arsenal" and they refer to the place where he produces and maintains his firearms, this is the correct usage?

Why does this have to be so confusing?
 
2013-08-30 02:19:35 PM
The previous felony appears to be for a murder 20 plus years ago.

One gun or 150, does not matter.
 
2013-08-30 02:19:59 PM

jaytkay: ...any connected to the crime are still scratching their heads over how an ex-felon with ties to white supremacist groups was able to get his hands on so many guns...

It's no mystery. Private sales and gun shows avoid the background checks intended to rob freedom-loving Nazis of their Constitutional rights.

The NRA and the GOP work very hard to preserve the 2nd Amendment rights of this oppressed minority.


Private sales.  End sentence.  The only sales at gun shows that aren't legally subject to background checks (varies by state) are those that are also private sales.  Dealers with stalls at gun shows have to do background checks, as well.  Obviously whoever sold to this dumbass wasn't too concerned that he was a felon...which means that "requiring" background checks wouldn't have made a lick of difference in this case, because someone was going to sell to him anyway.
 
2013-08-30 02:20:32 PM
Cam we all agree on a weapons  cache? That seems to be a nice, accurate term, while still being inflammatory.
 
2013-08-30 02:20:33 PM
Yeah but his guns were all Bugers, Holts, Glicks and Kalaskneecoughs.
 
2013-08-30 02:20:41 PM

OldManDownDRoad: tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?

Arsenal - where firearms are manufactured.

Armory - where firearms are stored.

"Arsenal" is one of those buzz words used by politicians, journalists, and other dishonest folk to provoke an emotional reaction.

See also:

[www.unc.edu image 576x480]


Definition of ARSENAL

1
: an establishment for the manufacture or storage of arms and military equipment
: a collection of weapons


Damn those dishonest folk at Mirriam-Webster! Those gun-grabbers are always using their emotional definitions!

noun: a collection of weapons and military equipment stored by a country, person, or group:

Oh no! They've gotten to Oxford, too! Will they stop at nothing to pull at our heart strings?!
 
2013-08-30 02:21:34 PM
tetsoushima:
I just looked it up.  The usage is wrong.  An "arsenal" is a government storage facility for weapons, arms and armor.  It would be like having a 18 books and saying you have a "textbook distribution center".

No, it's fine.  Second definition on Merriam Webster is simply "a collection of weapons".
 
2013-08-30 02:21:36 PM

MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns


This
 
2013-08-30 02:21:41 PM
A felon; with 18 guns? I think that's 18 charges of a felon possessing a firearm. That's some pretty serious time. Also, bullet-proof body armor isn't a thing; it might be bullet resistant; but, it's not bullet-proof.
 
2013-08-30 02:22:13 PM
TFA: "they can obtain guns through a straw purchaser..."
dittybopper: "All firearms purchased though an FFL..."

Maybe that distinction matters?
 
2013-08-30 02:22:21 PM

gwowen: tetsoushima: tetsoushima: MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns

For one guy?  That's a bit pedantic.  Is there a cutoff number?

I just looked it up.  The usage is wrong.  An "arsenal" is a government storage facility for weapons, arms and armor.  It would be like having a 18 books and saying you have a "textbook distribution centerininyou need a better dictionary. Every one I check says "any store of weapons" as an alternative usage.


Apparently I need to learn how to internet.  That's OK, it's a gun thread, if I make a mistake, everybody will let me know with shocking speed and regularity.
 
2013-08-30 02:22:23 PM

rustyspork: Cam we all agree on a weapons  cache? That seems to be a nice, accurate term, while still being inflammatory.


Such an agreement is not conducive toward arguing for an idiotic ban on owning popular civilian sporting rifles that are rarely criminally misused or arguing for absolutely no restrictions upon firearm ownership and transfer whatsoever, and thus it has no place in this discussion.
 
2013-08-30 02:22:29 PM

tetsoushima: So when the comic books talk about "the Punisher's arsenal" and they refer to the place where he produces and maintains his firearms, this is the correct usage?

Why does this have to be so confusing?


I know, right?  That's literally the worst thing I've ever heard!  :D

An arsenal is where weapons are manufactured, an armory is where they're stored.  Those are the original definitions.  There's been so much ignorance and abuse, though, that one bleeds into the other.  Sad, as accuracy in language is a good thing.
 
2013-08-30 02:22:35 PM
the guns are secondary. Federal Investigators knew all about the sports jerseys from China. Your tax dollars at work.
 
2013-08-30 02:23:10 PM

MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns


dittybopper: Eighteen is an "arsenal" now?


Please name the number of guns for writers to have your permission to use the word "arsenal."
 
2013-08-30 02:23:21 PM

dittybopper: They can absolutely find out the original retail source of all of those guns.


They didn't saying tracking those particular guns would be impossible.
  The problem is tracking straw purchasers.

The Federal background check records are destroyed within 24 hours.

Which means nobody will notice some guy bouncing around from store to store, buying dozens of weapons for resale to ineligible buyers..

"As of July 2004, approved purchaser information is no longer kept for ninety days but is instead destroyed within twenty-four hours of the official National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) response to the dealer. "
 
2013-08-30 02:23:32 PM

rustyspork: Cam we all agree on a weapons  cache? That seems to be a nice, accurate term, while still being inflammatory.


Yea but your average public graduate has no clue what "cache" means. "Arsenal" they know though.
 
2013-08-30 02:23:38 PM
FTFA: This fearmongering has also hobbled federal law enforcement agents, who areforbidden from keeping any records of gun purchases.

Horsefeathers. Federal LEOs are not hobbled. They, if anything overstep their bounds.
Yes, they are forbidden from keeping some records. They are also forbidden from harassing innocent people into suicide, and from spying on citizens, and shooting unarmed citizens, etc, etc, ad historicum.
Fearmongering does nothing but contribute to the unchecked reach of the arm of the law.
 
2013-08-30 02:24:29 PM

RollingThunder: tetsoushima:
I just looked it up.  The usage is wrong.  An "arsenal" is a government storage facility for weapons, arms and armor.  It would be like having a 18 books and saying you have a "textbook distribution center".

No, it's fine.  Second definition on Merriam Webster is simply "a collection of weapons".


If knives are weapons then don't most of us have arsenals?
 
2013-08-30 02:24:45 PM
stevarooni:  Obviously whoever sold to this dumbass wasn't too concerned that he was a felon...which means that "requiring" background checks wouldn't have made a lick of difference in this case, because someone was going to sell to him anyway.

Ah the old "laws wouldn't work because criminals just ignore them, so why do we even have laws?" argument.
 
2013-08-30 02:24:47 PM
Did anyone actually read any of the cites?


They tell you nutters how they do it and you still say it's impossible.
 
2013-08-30 02:24:49 PM
We clearly need more laws making it illegaler for convicted felons illegally engaged in illegal activities to acquire illegal guns.
 
2013-08-30 02:25:11 PM
40,000 rounds isn't really thaaaaaat much. I mean, its a lot, but I burn through 1000 rounds at the range with my .22 pretty easily in an afternoon. Ammo prices are so volatile and lately availability has been a problem, so I could see having 40,000 rounds if I had the space and the money. Considering this guy had more firearms, I'm sure they're in different calibers.

To be clear, his crime is being a felon with said firearms, not being a person with "a lot" of ammo and an "arsenal" of guns.
 
2013-08-30 02:26:26 PM

MonoChango: "Arsenal" != 18 guns


Having one is too many for your average gun grabber
 
2013-08-30 02:27:06 PM

tetsoushima


That's OK, it's a gun thread, if I make a mistake, everybody will let me know with shocking speed and regularity.


And half of those people will also be wrong, thus triggering another round of corrections, etc, etc. It should cascade fairly dramatically.

Could this be the inflammatory train-wreck-esque thread for a Friday afternoon before a holiday?
 
2013-08-30 02:27:45 PM
"For a convicted violent felon to amass an arsenal with 40,000 rounds of ammunition with no red flags popping up is problematic," he told the Plain Dealer. "No matter where you stand on the gun issue, it makes you wonder.


Oh, I bet you could find a person or two who believes the government has no business knowing if any particular felon owns 40,000 rounds of ammunition or not.
 
2013-08-30 02:27:50 PM

Dinki: Ah the old "laws wouldn't work because criminals just ignore them, so why do we even have laws?" argument.


right wing extremists want the laws they just don't want any way to enforce the laws.
 
2013-08-30 02:27:54 PM
No comments on the superman shirt and matching hair flip?
 
2013-08-30 02:28:03 PM
images.wikia.com
 
2013-08-30 02:29:19 PM

tothekor: rustyspork: Cam we all agree on a weapons  cache? That seems to be a nice, accurate term, while still being inflammatory.

Yea but your average public graduate has no clue what "cache" means. "Arsenal" they know though.


"Cache" is that stuff earned in Saints Row IV instead of money.
 
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