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(The New York Times)   Russia: No. China: No. UK: No. Democrats: no. Republicans: no. Rest of American people: no. Obama: What?   (nytimes.com) divider line 340
    More: Asinine, Michigan Republicans, Russia, Democrats, Tomahawk Cruise Missile, Secretary of State John Kerry, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, United Nations Security Council  
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4318 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Aug 2013 at 9:40 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-30 03:09:44 PM  

Surool: mrshowrules: Surool: mrshowrules: Surool: F*ck 'em all. Let the rest of the people in the world slaughter each other. They don't need our help to do it.

[tomjsteel.files.wordpress.com image 270x270]

We are never responsible for their sh*t. Everyone else is willing to let them all die, why do we want to do this alone and draw everyone's attacks for trying to "help"?

Listen to Spidey up thread.

I just said that "spidey graphic" isn't an excuse. You are just going to abdicate the debate then? Okay.


Is it true though?  Does the US have a responsibility to do something by virtue of being so rich and powerful?

It is a philosophical question.  I wish this was handled as a NATO matter.  Why aren't they invoking Article 4 as this is clearly a threat to Turkey?  I would prefer this.  In any case, Obama has to proceed.  Maybe he shouldn't have drawn the red line but he has.  He has the authority which he will use but it will be short of putting boots on the ground.

In retrospect, the red line should have been drawn by NATO not Obama.  That was his mistake.  To the extent it was a mistake to commit the US, it was done several months ago and now you are stuck with it.
 
2013-08-30 03:11:12 PM  

mpirooz: I do not think we should do anything in Syria alone. I seem to be in agreement with pretty much everybody else.

But I have to admit, if Obama was completely against action in Syria the GOP would more than likely be all for it and would be calling Obama weak and a bad leader. Doesn't really matter though, we'll find out if he backs down and then gets jumped in an all to predictable flip by the GOP.


He's not backing down.  No matter what Fartbongo does, the GOP will say it was the wrong thing.
 
2013-08-30 03:16:16 PM  

mpirooz: I do not think we should do anything in Syria alone.


Won't be. Any action will have the backing of at least France and Turkey.
 
2013-08-30 03:21:50 PM  

Granny_Panties: And if he doesn't bomb Syria, these same people will say Obama is weak for not sticking to his Red Line.

And if a chemical bomb that originated in Syria goes off in downtown NY, these same people will ask why didn't Obama do anything.

The same type of people that make these political cartoons are the same people that are criticizing him for acting. This isn't about Syria or chemical weapons, it's about making Obama and America look bad.

[www.wnd.com image 590x421]

[img.allvoices.com image 609x608]


Using your thinking we should attack Iran as well.
 
2013-08-30 03:23:02 PM  

mrshowrules: mpirooz: I do not think we should do anything in Syria alone. I seem to be in agreement with pretty much everybody else.

But I have to admit, if Obama was completely against action in Syria the GOP would more than likely be all for it and would be calling Obama weak and a bad leader. Doesn't really matter though, we'll find out if he backs down and then gets jumped in an all to predictable flip by the GOP.

He's not backing down.  No matter what Fartbongo does, the GOP will say it was the wrong thing.


He's the real victim in all of this mess.
 
2013-08-30 03:25:45 PM  
www.washingtonpost.com
 
2013-08-30 03:34:06 PM  

Kiriyama9000: [www.washingtonpost.com image 850x664]


Edward Tufte is rolling in his grave.
 
2013-08-30 04:00:42 PM  

somedude210: /seriously guys, why the fark do you compare this to Iraq?
//if anything, compare to Libya


Because Libya was successful, more or less, and probably the right thing to do under the circumstances. Iraq was a total clusterfark and was obviously all Obama's fault. Benghazi! IRS? ... [mutters] Fillibuster.
 
2013-08-30 04:01:37 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: The United States of Heroes used WHITE PHOSPHORUS in Iraq.
Where's the indignation?


There, but ignored.
 
2013-08-30 04:01:56 PM  
Look Syria is a farking shiat sandwich that only one man has the balls to eat, that's right Barack Obama champion shiat sandwich eater since 2008. Syria is is the biggest shiattiest sandwich in the world, even shiattier and bigger then the Iraq, even shiatter and bigger then the Afghanistan, even bigger and shiattier then the sequester, even bigger and shiatter then Quantitative Easing and we know there is only one man capable of eating such a sandwich.

Barack Obama he eats shiat sandwiches because we deserve it.
 
2013-08-30 04:25:42 PM  

mrshowrules: There is a broader war of modernity versus traditionalism.  For too often the US has done the wrong thing for the right political reasons.  Perhaps the US need to do the right thing for the sake of being the right thing.

Play a longer game if you will.  Helping groups (including Al Qaeda) and standing by the Arab people against Assad might have longer term benefits.


Either you have the two sides confused here, or I do:  I thought the government was somewhat secular (at least by middle eastern standards) and one of the reasons the people were so pissed was because the government wasn't sharia enough for them.  Hence the support for the rebels from Al Qaeda.  If we support the rebels, we are supporting theocracy and traditionalism.  Something that you would think Republicans would get behind, except that the theocracy they are striving for isn't a Christian one.
 
2013-08-30 04:37:48 PM  
For the most part, the middle east is something the middle east is going to have to work out for themselves. We know, we've always known (or damn well should have) that sticking our western noses in it just makes them dig in further.

For the most part. Chemical weapons, however...
 
2013-08-30 05:05:25 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: LargeCanine: This isn't going to work.

Thank you for your very well-reasoned and explained post showcasing the entirety of your argument Mr. totally not an alt for  Canis.Noir etc.


I don't have an alt. But thank you for your comment allowing me to properly categorize your alt.
 
2013-08-30 05:21:22 PM  

mpirooz: But I have to admit, if Obama was completely against action in Syria the GOP would more than likely be all for it and would be calling Obama weak and a bad leader. Doesn't really matter though, we'll find out if he backs down and then gets jumped in an all to predictable flip by the GOP.


There's nothing to flip. He drew his red line but didn't get congress on board about what to do if it was crossed. Now he wants to attack without any consensus, the rest of the world see us as belligerent, and if he backs down we still look belligerent and he looks weak, making the US look weak. It doesn't matter what party he is or what he does at this point - it's a farkup.
 
2013-08-30 05:23:23 PM  

mrshowrules: Does the US have a responsibility to do something by virtue of being so rich and powerful?


No, we do not. All we do is breed more hatred against us, and the fighting is never over.
 
2013-08-30 05:41:31 PM  

USP .45: There's nothing to flip. He drew his red line but didn't get congress on board about what to do if it was crossed. Now he wants to attack without any consensus, the rest of the world see us as belligerent, and if he backs down we still look belligerent and he looks weak, making the US look weak. It doesn't matter what party he is or what he does at this point - it's a farkup.


Here's the thing.. you can call the whole "red line" thing a mistake.. and there are valid points to that, but what were the other options at that point (in regards to deterring the use of chemical weapons)? UN resolutions were going absolutely nowhere thanks to Russia and China, none of the other major powers were speaking very loud so what better option than to bluff and hope you don't get called on it? It's not like it was a weak bluff either; it came not long after the US took very real action in Libya.

As for Congress, Syria was barely even on their minds at the time and as for the present, for all the bluster you're hearing out of a select handful, you're still not seeing many of them hopping a flight back to DC ASAP, are you?
 
2013-08-30 06:37:27 PM  
Don't do it!  We gain nothing but more enemies, and we have enough of those.  Doesn't matter who wins the USA loses in Syria.
 
2013-08-30 06:37:52 PM  
Sigh. There's no good out for Obama here, and no matter which way he goes, it's going to damage our reputation some. He's already painted into the corner.

This is one of those instances when it's very clear that we elected a rookie. Tons of raw talent, good ability, but lacking the experience and seasoning required in the big leagues. He flubbed an important play.
 
2013-08-30 06:41:32 PM  

Weaver95: Nobody wants us to bomb Syria...nobody will help us bomb Syria....so what are we gonna do? Bomb Syria. Because reasons!

I really hope we don't do this. Enough with the bombings already.



What are you - Mr. thread-first guy?  Get a life, dude.

Oh, by the way... I'm having flashbacks.
 
2013-08-30 07:30:46 PM  

vygramul: Kiriyama9000: [www.washingtonpost.com image 850x664]

Edward Tufte is rolling in his grave.


He'll be surprised to hear that.
 
2013-08-30 07:52:47 PM  

VogonPoet: vygramul: Kiriyama9000: [www.washingtonpost.com image 850x664]

Edward Tufte is rolling in his grave.

He'll be surprised to hear that.


Oh? I take that as proof that he has not seen that graphic yet.
 
2013-08-30 07:56:18 PM  

ArkPanda: Attention world:  Apparently, we don't give a shiat if you want to use chemical weapons.  Go ahead and gas whoever you want.


We didn't care when Sadaam was gassing Kurds and Iranians in the 80s, hell we were on his side! There's nothing new here.
 
2013-08-30 08:03:03 PM  

TheJoe03: ArkPanda: Attention world: Apparently, we don't give a shiat if you want to use chemical weapons. Go ahead and gas whoever you want.

We didn't care when Sadaam was gassing Kurds and Iranians in the 80s, hell we were on his side! There's nothing new here.


We only care if you use chemical weapons after we SPECIFICALLY told you not to!
 
2013-08-30 08:45:55 PM  

TheJoe03: ArkPanda: Attention world:  Apparently, we don't give a shiat if you want to use chemical weapons.  Go ahead and gas whoever you want.

We didn't care when Sadaam was gassing Kurds and Iranians in the 80s, hell we were on his side! There's nothing new here.


It's almost as if a different generation with different values is in charge now.
 
2013-08-30 09:14:42 PM  

skozlaw: Kangaroo_Ralph: Where do y'all think Syria got their WMDs?

We've had this discussion as well. They received them from numerous sources, including Egypt and Iraq. Nobody has ever claimed Iraq never had WMDs, they had a very large cache of them in the 80s and they used them on several occasions. This has nothing to do with Iraq in 2003 which had none.

Any more inane questions?


And they made them, which is a capability they've had (and the US has known about) since the 1980s.
 
2013-08-30 09:15:33 PM  

InmanRoshi: Wouldn't a nerve gas manufacturing facility have to be manually infiltrated and over-taken?    Seems like just dropping a bomb on a nerve gas facility kinda defeats the purpose of trying to contain it.


That's what I keep thinking. I wish an ordnance expert would come in and discuss that piece of the puzzle. A better target for a cruise missile might be something Assad really likes. Maybe a yacht or something.
 
2013-08-30 09:20:51 PM  

Tyee: Don't do it!  We gain nothing but more enemies, and we have enough of those.  Doesn't matter who wins the USA loses in Syria.


whoever loses the u.s. wins. they should smile on as whoever is doing it continues to deliver deliver decent ATGMS and watch the place burn for a few years. the only way we could fark this up is getting involved.
 
2013-08-30 09:23:06 PM  

vygramul: It's almost as if a different generation with different values is in charge now.


LOL, really? Good luck with supporting another clusterfark though.
 
2013-08-30 09:30:35 PM  

somedude210: You think we're damned if we get involved, what happens 10 years from now when we get attacked by pissed off Syrian survivors who begged for some help to stop the usage of chemical attacks and we did nothing?


yea, they are gonna focus in on the US as the sole reason they are pissed.  Sure.  Not assad or anything.  The US.  And what happens in 10 years time when the survivor of a wayward tomahawk missile comes home to roost?  you know, someone for whom the US is the actual real cause of their suffering?  As opposed to a geopolitical axe to grind that you suggest?

hey, why don't you go sign up to fight, big guy.  Or send your kids or your neices or nephews.  Go on.  You know, to keep us all safe from that eventuallity you outlined up there, cuz it makes a lot of sense and is clearly worth putting your life on the line for. right?
 
2013-08-30 10:09:27 PM  

The_Forensicator: The great uniter has united everyone against us taking action in Syria.  His incomprehensible foreign "policy" looks like he uses the magic 8-ball to make decisions.


I thought the "uniter, not a divider" stopped being President about five and a half years ago.
 
2013-08-30 10:49:19 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Sigh. There's no good out for Obama here, and no matter which way he goes, it's going to damage our reputation some. He's already painted into the corner.

This is one of those instances when it's very clear that we elected a rookie. Tons of raw talent, good ability, but lacking the experience and seasoning required in the big leagues. He flubbed an important play.


Yeah, I really wish we had someone with a wealth of foreign policy experience like Romney making the decisions right now.
 
2013-08-30 10:56:49 PM  

Kiriyama9000: [www.washingtonpost.com image 850x664]


There's no arrow between Assad and Syria Rebels.
 
2013-08-30 10:57:07 PM  

1derful: Obama needs to take people's attention from all the evil shiat he's been caught at home, so it's bombing time!


Clinton tactic... cya ....
 
2013-08-30 11:49:25 PM  

TheJoe03: vygramul: It's almost as if a different generation with different values is in charge now.

LOL, really? Good luck with supporting another clusterfark though.


It's almost as if this will be another Iraq.
 
2013-08-31 12:06:09 AM  
I've heard the sane, honest and concerned opinions of most important politicians across the globe. But what did the UN inspectors that left Syria find out?

Also, what red lines-blue lines? There is an all out war going on there since 2011, tens of thousands murdered, millions on the run, and the "civilized world" suddenly gets a fit about it today?
 
2013-08-31 12:09:13 AM  

vernonFL: So you are all okay with chemical weapons? Are they not taboo anymore? Because if we do nothing, that is the message we're sending.


Why do we have to be the world police? Why did we not respond when 100,000 have died, yet we suddenly do when they use chemical weapons?

Plus, aiding the rebels will bite us in the ass. They are as bad as Assad AND have Al Qaeda ties.

We should stay the fark out
 
2013-08-31 02:54:54 AM  

machoprogrammer: vernonFL: So you are all okay with chemical weapons? Are they not taboo anymore? Because if we do nothing, that is the message we're sending.

Why do we have to be the world police? Why did we not respond when 100,000 have died, yet we suddenly do when they use chemical weapons?

Plus, aiding the rebels will bite us in the ass. They are as bad as Assad AND have Al Qaeda ties.

We should stay the fark out


It's just amazing to me that a useless/potentially volatile limited strike that shouldn't even happen will be just as damaging to the US as the posturing and belligerent threats of useless action that we back away from. To get yourself into a position where both options are equally embarrassing failures really takes some skill.
 
2013-08-31 06:22:55 AM  

vygramul: TheJoe03: vygramul: It's almost as if a different generation with different values is in charge now.

LOL, really? Good luck with supporting another clusterfark though.

It's almost as if this will be another Iraq.


Doubtful, but it's a whole can of worms I'm not sure we should get into. More like 1980s Afghanistan and our support of "freedom fighters" that ended up being our current enemies. No one has even offered a military plan that would actually work in a nation like Syria to topple or cripple Assad and we have no idea what would happen if Assad was gone. We really need to stay out of this, it's not our fight and I fail to see how it helps the US or even the Middle East in the long term.
 
2013-08-31 11:14:59 AM  

USP .45: It's just amazing to me that a useless/potentially volatile limited strike that shouldn't even happen will be just as damaging to the US as the posturing and belligerent threats of useless action that we back away from. To get yourself into a position where both options are equally embarrassing failures really takes some skill.


Again I have to ask, back when chemical weapon use by Assad was hinted at a year ago, what would you have done different as a deterrent?
 
2013-08-31 08:31:00 PM  
   In a rational sort of way, I think Russia should join with the rest of the world to go in and remove the chemical weapons from Syria so that they can be destroyed.  However, I think the
Russians think of the chemical weapons as being safely contained as long as they are under the control of Assad and his regime, and fear that the weapons may find their way to Dagestan, or points north, and be used there, if he falls and the weapons come under the control of the somewhat motley crew now arrayed in opposition to Assad.  The problem with that approach is that the chemical weapons will still be there, if Assad maintains control by demolishing the opposition.  If the chemical weapons were removed they would no longer be a problem, and would not turn up somewhere else.
   Unfortunately, with the telegraphing of our punches in advance, as well as, the necessity of getting enough various countries on board with an intervention, selling an intervention to democratic legislative bodies and the peoples they represent, and coordinating the various militaries to be able to act in unison, the element of surprise has been lost.  Assad and his minions have had time to regroup, disperse, and take cover, http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/30/uk-syria-crisis-barracks-idU K BRE97T0N720130830?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews , thus complicating and creating a hodgepodge of pitfalls for the intended strike against Assad's forces.
   Assad and company's crimes are numerous, and many of them are equally as bad as the poison gas attack, http://www.france24.com/en/20130830-incendiary-bomb-dropped-syria-sch o ol-children-assad .
   War, like life, can be complicated and it is difficult to discern the correct action to pursue at the correct time.  However, as Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."  And, one would do well to remember Confucius, "If a man takes no thought about what is distant, he will find sorrow near at hand."

/...for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.--J. R. R. Tolkien
 
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