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(Reuters)   You aren't poor because you are stupid. You are stupid because you are poor   (reuters.com) divider line 160
    More: Unlikely, goal difference, University of Warwick, poverty  
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6965 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Aug 2013 at 5:42 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



160 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-29 05:44:18 PM
No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity
 
2013-08-29 05:45:51 PM
That's a lot of words for "constant stress hurts your decision making capabilities".
 
2013-08-29 05:46:27 PM
And ugly
 
2013-08-29 05:46:53 PM
1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-08-29 05:47:24 PM
Love the URL.
 
2013-08-29 05:48:14 PM
I think people in general and this study in particular over generalizes what causes people to be poor and over estimates the intelligence of rich people.

/not poor
//not rich
///genius IQ
////IQ doesn't mean shiat
 
2013-08-29 05:48:39 PM
Eldar Shafir, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton who worked on the research team, said it was not stress in general, but financial worries in particular, that led to a reduced ability to make sound decisions.

The nice thing about fake science is that when you put credentials behind it, it almost sounds convincing.
 
2013-08-29 05:48:47 PM
Can't I just be poor?

/yay my Boobies on this silly thing
//only took me 11 years
///i'm been waiting to use slashies
 
2013-08-29 05:48:53 PM
Yeah, well the world needs ditch diggers, too.
 
2013-08-29 05:50:24 PM
I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.
 
A7
2013-08-29 05:50:34 PM
Get outta the gene pool!

And don't pee on your way out.
 
2013-08-29 05:50:54 PM
I'm not stupid because I'm not poor, even though I sometimes act stupid enough to be poor if I wasn't already not-poor.

//entirely hypothetical
 
2013-08-29 05:51:10 PM
Hey, I'm depraved on account I'm deprived.
 
2013-08-29 05:51:18 PM
Why not obvious?

If people were smart, they'd be born to rich parents. They weren't, so they must be stupid.

QED.
 
2013-08-29 05:52:03 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Of course, that's not what the study says.
 
2013-08-29 05:52:09 PM
How does this work? Mitt Romney is a dumbass.
 
2013-08-29 05:53:13 PM
And the rich who have never worked are stupid, too. It's about doing things that give the brain a workout.

If you sit on your ass all day long, you will be stupid. Poor, rich, whatever.

Free money doesn't improve people's lot in life.  Free money just keeps people in stasis.  Like a house cat who has never lived outdoors has, for all practical purposes, mind of a kitten. A rich kid who never works, a poor person who never works and lives on handouts/welfare will never have a fully matured brain.
 
2013-08-29 05:53:21 PM

austerity101: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

Of course, that's not what the study says.


Well to be specific the study says being poor drops your IQ by 13 points.  Or are we reading different studies?
 
2013-08-29 05:53:22 PM

Mugato: I think people in general and this study in particular over generalizes what causes people to be poor and over estimates the intelligence of rich people.

/not poor
//not rich
///genius IQ
////IQ doesn't mean shiat


Is this that "humblebrag" thing I keep hearing about?
 
2013-08-29 05:53:57 PM
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

All here? Good. Go f*ck yourselves, this is America.
 
2013-08-29 05:56:23 PM
my rebuttal

lh3.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-08-29 05:57:04 PM
I'm stupid by choice.  It's my party slogan: Choose Stupid!
 
2013-08-29 05:58:09 PM
www.laverdadyotrasmentiras.com
 
2013-08-29 05:58:15 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-29 05:58:48 PM
"The thing about not having much money is you have to take much more responsibility for your life. You can't pay people to watch your kids or clean your house or fix your meals. You can't necessarily afford a car or a washing machine or a home in a good school district. That's what money buys you: goods and services that make your life easier.

The working poor haven't abdicated responsibility for their lives. They're drowning in it." Link
 
2013-08-29 05:58:52 PM

Mager: How does this work? Mitt Romney is a dumbass.


What does that make Al Gore?
076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com


Double Dumbass.
 
2013-08-29 06:00:12 PM
Access to education has more to do with a person's intellect than anything else.
 
2013-08-29 06:00:37 PM
You are not stupid because you are on the Fark Politics Tab, you are on the Fark Politics Tab because you are stupid.
 
2013-08-29 06:01:03 PM
Either way, you're stupid and poor.  And your mama dresses you funny.
 
2013-08-29 06:01:21 PM
After Reagan and Thatcher established the language of the mid-Victorian mill-owner as the rhetoric of political discourse, the 'deserving poor' were going to be marginally better treated by the State than the 'undeserving' poor. This would get people out of the welfare trance and into the economy. Fine. Except the jobs they got were the ones which paid the least and which people needed the most. And they came out of the poverty trance to the realization that since society didn't really give a damn, neither did they. Rise of crime rate, though growing signs of solidarity amongst the outlaw tribes. There is still a class not being addressed and which nobody is successful in repressing. Only in countries which adopted the T/R model have crime, children bearing children and urban and rural poverty risen in such numbers. Countries which pay high taxes, give teeth to their social services, run a humane health service whose first duty is to patients (not 'caring' rhetoric approved by shareholders) and actually feed the hungry as a matter of the social contract between voters and their representatives. For the majority of voters will tell you they don't mind paying taxes so long as that money goes to the places it's supposed to go. If they object, give them the option of opting out of society as some rural communes have successfully done. Not that many are absolutely free of society but some have come close.
And if people lack the imagination to see such realities for themselves, I don't know. If this is going to be no more than a larger quake than the last one after which we can all go back to normal, then I see an increasingly impoverished future. If we can decentralize AND improve social services by encouraging, if you like, an equal distribution of taxes, so much the better. The dream of an America devoted to individual liberty, made up of thousands of small communities, ensuring justice at every level, self-discipline being something worth attaining... is one I've always kept as an ideal, though there now has to be an urban version of that, of course.
The American Dream clashed a bit with the advantages of an enlarged, tax-paying immigrant base which further devalued labor to the advantage of capital. And I think it's likely to worsen now, if people decide to impress the T/R pattern with increased violence. We need flexible thinkers, not monumental institutions restored to us or we ARE done for.

- Moorcock

Beware the Poverty Trance....
 
2013-08-29 06:01:27 PM
studyingsouthpark.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-29 06:02:02 PM

Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity


let's not let science get in the way of a good derp... amirite?
 
2013-08-29 06:03:28 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.
 
2013-08-29 06:04:18 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity

let's not let science get in the way of a good derp... amirite?


I wint tu publick skool.  No sighency stuf wuz teecht tu us
 
2013-08-29 06:04:42 PM

INeedAName: Access to education has more to do with a person's intellect than anything else.


Yep, and it good to see the internet democratizing education. It's all out there for free.

/never underestimate the general ignorance of someone with a deep knowledge in one field.
 
2013-08-29 06:05:50 PM

jst3p: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.


buuuuurn.
 
2013-08-29 06:07:19 PM

jst3p: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.


Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence.  When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.
 
2013-08-29 06:10:55 PM

marsoft: Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence. When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.


I don't think you understand what the article is saying or are giving too much credence to the headline.
It's not that the poor are truly stupid, or even incapable, it's that the mental demands of being poor are taxing their brainpower to such a degree that they have less ability to focus, think, and plan.
 
2013-08-29 06:14:07 PM
If you're so rich, why aren't you smart?
 
2013-08-29 06:14:22 PM

Smeggy Smurf: HindiDiscoMonster: Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity

let's not let science get in the way of a good derp... amirite?

I wint tu publick skool.  No sighency stuf wuz teecht tu us


I'm sorry, but could you translate that into english please?
 
2013-08-29 06:15:03 PM

jst3p: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.


you were quite a bit nicer than I would have been :)
 
2013-08-29 06:15:05 PM

marsoft: austerity101: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

Of course, that's not what the study says.

Well to be specific the study says being poor drops your IQ by 13 points.  Or are we reading different studies?


That's not what it says, either.

Financial stress caused by scarcity causes impairment equivalent to a 13 point drop in IQ. It's distracting, it doesn't somehow leech your brain cells away.

I hope your degree does not require reading comprehension.
 
2013-08-29 06:15:35 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: marsoft: Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence. When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.

I don't think you understand what the article is saying or are giving too much credence to the headline.
It's not that the poor are truly stupid, or even incapable, it's that the mental demands of being poor are taxing their brainpower to such a degree that they have less ability to focus, think, and plan.


Kinda like our Presidents!
 
2013-08-29 06:15:46 PM

Mark Ratner: Yeah, well the world needs ditch diggers, too.


Not really
 
2013-08-29 06:15:56 PM
A lot of poor people are about to double-down on their lottery ticket investments and scrap the whole idea of college savings.
 
2013-08-29 06:16:17 PM
Also, it's well-known that long-term continual stress impairs the hippocampus, which is the key part of the brain for forming memories, crucial to learning.
 
2013-08-29 06:16:55 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: marsoft: Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence. When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.

I don't think you understand what the article is saying or are giving too much credence to the headline.
It's not that the poor are truly stupid, or even incapable, it's that the mental demands of being poor are taxing their brainpower to such a degree that they have less ability to focus, think, and plan.


I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is.  If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.
 
2013-08-29 06:17:20 PM
You can't afford the good channels on your TV service,
therefore you get Jerry Springer and Judge Judy and remain stupid.
 
2013-08-29 06:19:06 PM

kurlumbenus: marsoft: austerity101: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

Of course, that's not what the study says.

Well to be specific the study says being poor drops your IQ by 13 points.  Or are we reading different studies?

That's not what it says, either.

Financial stress caused by scarcity causes impairment equivalent to a 13 point drop in IQ. It's distracting, it doesn't somehow leech your brain cells away.

I hope your degree does not require reading comprehension.


Direct quote from the article in question "The mental strain could be costing poor people up to 13 IQ (intelligence quotient) points "
 
2013-08-29 06:20:00 PM
I did about a decade as an inner city landlord and pretty much all of my tenants were poor (except for the one stripper).

Some of them were "slow", but most of them were as smart as the average person you'd meet.

What did seperate them from stable "not poor" people was their love of partying (drinking and smoking weed / crack / meth) every day.

Making ends meet is not priority one for such people.

This study sounds like just another p.c. acedemic crusade where the conclusion was reached before the study began.
 
2013-08-29 06:20:50 PM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Mark Ratner: Yeah, well the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Not really


We need ditch engineers
 
2013-08-29 06:22:35 PM

marsoft: I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is. If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.


Oh. In that case, it's bullshiat and you're a moron. For all your talk of being poor, you've either never had to worry about where your next meal was coming from or you learned nothing from the experience. Desperation doesn't make people smarter, it makes them irrational.
 
2013-08-29 06:22:46 PM

marsoft: I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.


The mere existence of smart poor people does not refute the findings of this study.  I'm not saying the study is necessarily right, I haven't read it, but your arguments against it are irrelevant.

The study does not say "poor people are dumb".  It says that, "on average, poor people have lower cognitive performance on certain tasks than rich people".  It's a relative comparison between poor and rich people.  You can observe as many poor people as you like, but it's irrelevant if you don't compare them to a "similar" population of rich people, and look for differences.  Also, the study found that cognitive performance improved within the same person as their income increased, so it's not some absolute statement about their native "intelligence".
 
2013-08-29 06:23:45 PM

Super Chronic: Love the URL.


Thanks!

/subby
 
2013-08-29 06:23:48 PM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Mark Ratner: Yeah, well the world needs ditch diggers, too.

Not really


Really.. Who the heck uses SHOVELS these days? Do they still MAKE 'em?

These days you gotta hire a union guy in a backhoe and pay him $50/hour.
 
2013-08-29 06:24:34 PM

marsoft: kurlumbenus: marsoft: austerity101: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

Of course, that's not what the study says.

Well to be specific the study says being poor drops your IQ by 13 points.  Or are we reading different studies?

That's not what it says, either.

Financial stress caused by scarcity causes impairment equivalent to a 13 point drop in IQ. It's distracting, it doesn't somehow leech your brain cells away.

I hope your degree does not require reading comprehension.

Direct quote from the article in question "The mental strain could be costing poor people up to 13 IQ (intelligence quotient) points "


You right now
media4.onsugar.com
 
2013-08-29 06:26:44 PM

marsoft: I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.


But you have given no evidence of this claim.  It's just an assertion.  You haven't systematically compared the average ability of poor people to focus, think, or plan to a similar population of rich people.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is.  If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.

That's irrelevant to the findings of this study, which asked poor and rich people to focus on the same tasks.  It's not a comparison of poor people with focus to rich people without focus.
 
2013-08-29 06:29:27 PM
I lost my mittens.
 
2013-08-29 06:29:46 PM

marsoft: In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is.  If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.


Also, if you read the article, it says "'The poor are often highly effective at focusing on and dealing with pressing problems,' [Shafir] said. 'But they don't have leftover bandwidth to devote to other tasks.  So, if you live in poverty, you're more error prone and errors cost you more dearly -- it's hard to find a way out.'"
 
2013-08-29 06:31:28 PM

Mugato: I think people in general and this study in particular over generalizes what causes people to be poor and over estimates the intelligence of rich people.

/not poor
//not rich
///genius IQ
////IQ doesn't mean shiat


True.  I think it is a combination of both though.  Your parents are not all that brilliant.  One of them went to college back when it wasn't ridiculously expensive and has a decent job.  They have you.  You are pretty average also.  You do okay in school but your parents really don't push you hard intellectually because they are pretty average.  You get a HS diploma and are unable to get any grants or scholarships.  A little research happens and you realize college is ridiculously expensive and decide not to go.  You have a kid.  You are not destitute but you are not as well off as your parents were at your age.  Your kid is average.........
 
2013-08-29 06:31:43 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: marsoft: I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is. If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.

Oh. In that case, it's bullshiat and you're a moron. For all your talk of being poor, you've either never had to worry about where your next meal was coming from or you learned nothing from the experience. Desperation doesn't make people smarter, it makes them irrational.


Yes. I notice your use of the word "them".  Desperation makes you focus.  How do I know? 2 years living on the street from age 16 to age 18.

Never had to worry about where my next meal was coming from?  Seriously, from age 8 I always wondered that.

Being poor does not make you irrational, being desperate does not make you irrational.

Please provide actual evidence to back up your position rather than one study which does not provide (from the article anyway) a set of numbers to substantiate it.
 
2013-08-29 06:33:00 PM

TomD9938: I did about a decade as an inner city landlord and pretty much all of my tenants were poor (except for the one stripper).

Some of them were "slow", but most of them were as smart as the average person you'd meet.

What did seperate them from stable "not poor" people was their love of partying (drinking and smoking weed / crack / meth) every day.

Making ends meet is not priority one for such people.

This study sounds like just another p.c. acedemic crusade where the conclusion was reached before the study began.


So you're saying poor people engage in activities that reduce stress?
 
2013-08-29 06:33:19 PM
I personally know several wealthy people. They are idiots.

Luck and being an asshole make you rich. Rich people are the "fatties" of economics: gluttonous beings who consume more than they need just because can.
 
2013-08-29 06:35:07 PM

marsoft: Please provide actual evidence to back up your position rather than one study which does not provide (from the article anyway) a set of numbers to substantiate it.


You first. You're the one disagreeing with the article.

Though I'm tempted just to use you as evidence, since if you're telling the truth about being poor, it kicked the shiat out of your brain.
 
2013-08-29 06:35:28 PM
Actually people tend to perceive successful people as smart. The more successful you are the more outlandish your ideas can be and people will believe them. Take Elon Musk - it took just a dozen poorly researched pages about a transportation system he has no interest in creating to have people demanding the bullet train cease so work on the hyperloop could begin, despite the inherent ludicrousness of the proposal.
 
2013-08-29 06:36:16 PM

Prophet of Loss: I personally know several wealthy people. They are idiots.

Luck and being an asshole make you rich. Rich people are the "fatties" of economics: gluttonous beings who consume more than they need just because can.


Those that inherited money, not working for it, tend to be idiots.  Tommy boys
 
2013-08-29 06:36:42 PM

marsoft: Sergeant Grumbles: marsoft: Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence. When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.

I don't think you understand what the article is saying or are giving too much credence to the headline.
It's not that the poor are truly stupid, or even incapable, it's that the mental demands of being poor are taxing their brainpower to such a degree that they have less ability to focus, think, and plan.

I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is.  If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.


And while you were all focused on how to get your next meal, you just ran a red light and got a ticket for $100. 

 Had you not been stressing about food, you  would not have missed the red light and not cost yourself $100. 

 The equivalent "mental drain" on being poor is about the same as having a lousy night's sleep. You can still get through the day, but your odds of making simple mistakes go up and cost you. 

. While I'm sure you were uncool (wearing hand me downs) and hungry. You weren't the one scrambling to make ends meet like your guardian. You weren't responsible for putting food on the table for everyone, responsible for other people having a place to live, and basically having the entire welfare of the family riding on your every decision where one mistake was going to royally screw everyone.

  That's a big farking difference than being a kid and being hungry (as sucky as that is.).
 
2013-08-29 06:36:55 PM
The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.

Then when they get into some money they spend it as quickly as possible on a brand new car or house, etc. that they obviously can't afford to maintain.  Gotta buy a brand new dining-room set to impress the cousins!  It's about not having impulse control or the ability to plan, not about IQ-type intelligence.

For instance there was that girl who got about 700k for falsely accusing Brian Banks of rape and then suing her school.  Just a few years later... she's a single mother on welfare.  Couldn't spend any of that money on birth control, or a college education, or starting a business, but that is not unusual at all.  So many poor people like to shat out babies all over the place and then complain about being poor.  But nevermind that, we always have to paint poor people as helpless victims.
 
2013-08-29 06:39:36 PM
Direct quote from the article

In the mall study, they gathered dozens of low and middle-income shoppers and subjected them to a battery of tests to measure IQ and impulse control.

In India, the researchers found that farmers had diminished cognitive performance before getting paid for their harvest compared to afterwards, when their coffers have been replenished.

So in the US they asked dozens of people in a mall, in India there is no mention of how many people were in the study.

An this is the science you want me to debunk, seriously?
 
2013-08-29 06:40:49 PM
Of course rich people can look smart when their always asking their employees for the answers. Ever worked for a business owner - honestly I think rich people are generally stupid - the only thing that separates us is they have money and I don't.

I need a good lottery ticket or someone rich to die.  Then I can join the club.
 
2013-08-29 06:41:15 PM

marsoft: Direct quote from the article

In the mall study, they gathered dozens of low and middle-income shoppers and subjected them to a battery of tests to measure IQ and impulse control.

In India, the researchers found that farmers had diminished cognitive performance before getting paid for their harvest compared to afterwards, when their coffers have been replenished.

So in the US they asked dozens of people in a mall, in India there is no mention of how many people were in the study.

An this is the science you want me to debunk, seriously?


simpsonsscreenshots.com
 
2013-08-29 06:42:34 PM

Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.

Then when they get into some money they spend it as quickly as possible on a brand new car or house, etc. that they obviously can't afford to maintain.  Gotta buy a brand new dining-room set to impress the cousins!  It's about not having impulse control or the ability to plan, not about IQ-type intelligence.

For instance there was that girl who got about 700k for falsely accusing Brian Banks of rape and then suing her school.  Just a few years later... she's a single mother on welfare.  Couldn't spend any of that money on birth control, or a college education, or starting a business, but that is not unusual at all.  So many poor people like to shat out babies all over the place and then complain about being poor.  But nevermind that, we always have to paint poor people as helpless victims.


Funny thing about all those things you mentioned...they are by and large cheaper than eating healthy regularly (esp for a family). Even the cigarettes. 

/great times we live in, eh? 
//yes, I do know poor people who do not spend lots of money on those things you mention (they might get a six pack on in a while for a social gather or something). They still don't have enough to eat well.
 
2013-08-29 06:42:55 PM

Prophet of Loss: marsoft: Direct quote from the article

In the mall study, they gathered dozens of low and middle-income shoppers and subjected them to a battery of tests to measure IQ and impulse control.

In India, the researchers found that farmers had diminished cognitive performance before getting paid for their harvest compared to afterwards, when their coffers have been replenished.

So in the US they asked dozens of people in a mall, in India there is no mention of how many people were in the study.

An this is the science you want me to debunk, seriously?

[simpsonsscreenshots.com image 768x576]


you post pictures coz you know I am right.

When has dozens of people ever been a good sample for a scientific study?
 
2013-08-29 06:42:59 PM
Explains why Americans are so dumb.


Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.


bullsheet.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-29 06:44:22 PM

INeedAName: TomD9938: I did about a decade as an inner city landlord and pretty much all of my tenants were poor (except for the one stripper).

Some of them were "slow", but most of them were as smart as the average person you'd meet.

What did seperate them from stable "not poor" people was their love of partying (drinking and smoking weed / crack / meth) every day.

Making ends meet is not priority one for such people.

This study sounds like just another p.c. acedemic crusade where the conclusion was reached before the study began.



So you're saying poor people engage in activities that reduce stress?


It's more about getting high than reducing stress.

The stress, of say, paying the rent, only comes into play at the last moment of the thirty day cycle.  Every day up until then is about the self.

Again, not stupid, but a shared blase attitude over the consequences of not taking action earlier.
 
2013-08-29 06:44:33 PM
The fact something like 85% of the worlds wealth is held by 5% of the population is just semantics, really.
 
2013-08-29 06:46:16 PM

J. Frank Parnell: The fact something like 85% of the worlds wealth is held by 5% of the population is just semantics, really.


I think you are a few years out of date on that.  Readjust your percentages in the bad direction.
 
2013-08-29 06:46:18 PM

marsoft: Direct quote from the article

In the mall study, they gathered dozens of low and middle-income shoppers and subjected them to a battery of tests to measure IQ and impulse control.

In India, the researchers found that farmers had diminished cognitive performance before getting paid for their harvest compared to afterwards, when their coffers have been replenished.

So in the US they asked dozens of people in a mall, in India there is no mention of how many people were in the study.

An this is the science you want me to debunk, seriously?


seriously... I mean they should have gotten them from the people farm instead.
 
2013-08-29 06:50:33 PM

FlashHarry: [1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 510x319]


Came here to post this. *shakes tiny fist*
 
2013-08-29 06:51:27 PM

marsoft: Direct quote from the article

In the mall study, they gathered dozens of low and middle-income shoppers and subjected them to a battery of tests to measure IQ and impulse control.

In India, the researchers found that farmers had diminished cognitive performance before getting paid for their harvest compared to afterwards, when their coffers have been replenished.

So in the US they asked dozens of people in a mall, in India there is no mention of how many people were in the study.

An this is the science you want me to debunk, seriously?


According to the research article, here were 101 subjects in the mall study, and 464 subjects in the India study.

Exercise:  what is the statistical power of this study to detect a ~13 point difference in samples of this size (given an assumed 15-point standard deviation in the general population)?

Also, some quotes from the article:

"The data reported here suggest a different perspective on poverty: Being poor means coping not just with a shortfall of money, but also with a concurrent shortfall of cognitive resources. The poor, in this view, are less capable not because of inherent traits, but because the very context of poverty imposes load and impedes cognitive capacity. The findings, in other words, are not about poor people, but about any people who find themselves poor."

"How large are these effects? Sleep researchers have examined the cognitive impact (on Raven's) of losing a full night of sleep through experimental manipulations (38). In standard deviation terms, the
laboratory study findings are of the same size, and the field findings are three quarters that size. Put simply, evoking financial concerns has a cognitive impact comparable with losing a full night of sleep. In addition, similar effect sizes have been observed in the performance on Raven's matrices of chronic alcoholics versus normal adults (39) and of 60- versus 45-year-olds (40). By way of calibration, according to a
common approximation used by intelligence researchers, with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15 the effects we observed correspond to ~13 IQ points. These sizable magnitudes suggest the cognitive impact of poverty could have large real consequences."
 
2013-08-29 06:52:15 PM

Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.


People today (at least those under 50-60) probably really have no concept of what being "Poor" means, and as bad as it is (today) at least it's nothing like what it used to be.  My parents used to tell me stories about what being poor used to mean. Being poor meant your mother made your clothes out of old potato sacks, and yes, you actually had to wear them to school. Being poor meant if you didn't chop enough wood for your family, you froze that winter.  Being poor meant if you didn't grow your own food (garden, chickens, etc.) your family didn't eat. Only the well-to-do had cows (which meant they got to eat beef).  I consider myself very lucky that I didn't grow up during that time.
 
2013-08-29 06:52:15 PM

Dion Fortune: For instance there was that girl who got about 700k for falsely accusing Brian Banks of rape and then suing her school.  Just a few years later... she's a single mother on welfare.


And Donald Trump was born a millionaire and declared bankruptcy 4 times through various companies he owned. There are at least a dozen multi-millionaire celebrities I could name who are thousands or millions in the hole from taxes. CEOs, bank executives either under indictment or in prison for screwing over thousands of people and not being smart enough not to get caught. Then there are the PHDs who make $40,000/year. There is no coherent generalization between intellect and net worth.
 
2013-08-29 06:52:17 PM

marsoft: Now? I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Yeah, but just think of what your life would have been like if your brain hadn't have been crippled by poverty.
 
2013-08-29 06:52:19 PM

marsoft: When has dozens of people ever been a good sample for a scientific study?


When the effect size is large enough that you don't need a larger sample to detect significant differences.
 
2013-08-29 06:56:07 PM
There's a difference between someone who's poor by choice (who squanders their money on addictions, bad life decisions, and willfully stays that way) and someone who's poor due to circumstance (lack of work despite education or experience, high living expenses, difficult life circumstances).

The problem with society is we're too busy discriminating against the poor as a whole, while the very wealthy have successfully pointed the finger away from their direction, and continue to leech their way of life off of the hard word and ignorance of the majority.

The weak, stupid, and vulnerable in society are the rich who manipulate and misdirect our collective efforts. Next time you point your finger at a homeless man for collecting his welfare check, look into the pockets of the administrative heads who run the local charity, the businesses and organizations who are subsidized by government incentives that were created to control the situation (employment agencies, food bank initiatives, government established operations and divisions), and the growing number of corporation heads who refuse to sustain well-paid jobs in your country while they outsource work opportunities, effectively increasing their absurd wealth while impoverishing the rest of society. You'll find the majority of your money there.

The poor aren't a disease, they're the commodity the very rich use to deceive you into looking in the other direction while they profit off of you, an affirmation that the system is broken and our treatments of these issues are ineffective. The proper cure for poverty: The elimination of an upper ruling class and the fairer distribution of wealth and opportunity among all members of society.  Affordable and widely available education and healthcare. Higher wages, less outsourcing, and more work opportunities. Ethical business practice and the 100% transparency of government associated funds. The elimination of political organizations and government incentives whose main reason for existing is the misappropriation of public funds. Affordable property and living opportunities that are equally distributed as opposed to being exclusively maintained in one area of our communities where desperation and depression can fester. The reduction of crime labelled offenses and introduction of rehabilitative programs as opposed to prisons. I could go on and on, but you get the point...

/Or just keep on biatching while ignoring the collective picture. It's what the rich elite want and will continue to hope for, right up until your own ass and that of your family is on the street as well.
//Rant
 
2013-08-29 07:00:25 PM

blacksharpiemarker: There's a difference between someone who's poor by choice (who squanders their money on addictions, bad life decisions, and willfully stays that way) and someone who's poor due to circumstance (lack of work despite education or experience, high living expenses, difficult life circumstances).

The problem with society is we're too busy discriminating against the poor as a whole, while the very wealthy have successfully pointed the finger away from their direction, and continue to leech their way of life off of the hard word and ignorance of the majority.

The weak, stupid, and vulnerable in society are the rich who manipulate and misdirect our collective efforts. Next time you point your finger at a homeless man for collecting his welfare check, look into the pockets of the administrative heads who run the local charity, the businesses and organizations who are subsidized by government incentives that were created to control the situation (employment agencies, food bank initiatives, government established operations and divisions), and the growing number of corporation heads who refuse to sustain well-paid jobs in your country while they outsource work opportunities, effectively increasing their absurd wealth while impoverishing the rest of society. You'll find the majority of your money there.

The poor aren't a disease, they're the commodity the very rich use to deceive you into looking in the other direction while they profit off of you, an affirmation that the system is broken and our treatments of these issues are ineffective. The proper cure for poverty: The elimination of an upper ruling class and the fairer distribution of wealth and opportunity among all members of society.  Affordable and widely available education and healthcare. Higher wages, less outsourcing, and more work opportunities. Ethical business practice and the 100% transparency of government associated funds. The elimination of political organizations and government incentives whose main reason for existing is the misappropriation of public funds. Affordable property and living opportunities that are equally distributed as opposed to being exclusively maintained in one area of our communities where desperation and depression can fester. The reduction of crime labelled offenses and introduction of rehabilitative programs as opposed to prisons. I could go on and on, but you get the point...

/Or just keep on biatching while ignoring the collective picture. It's what the rich elite want and will continue to hope for, right up until your own ass and that of your family is on the street as well.
//Rant


Well...I uh...hmmm.

This?
 
2013-08-29 07:04:55 PM
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play
 
2013-08-29 07:06:06 PM

Ambitwistor: marsoft: When has dozens of people ever been a good sample for a scientific study?

When the effect size is large enough that you don't need a larger sample to detect significant differences.


Incorrect, as there is always a chance that the effect is only present in your sample.  The larger and more diverse the sample the less this chance is.

I will give you an example.  If we interviewed people in Afganistan and asked if Islam was evil we would get a different answer than in the USA..

There is always bias in samples, but the larger and more diverse the samples, the lesser the degree of bias.
 
2013-08-29 07:07:41 PM

Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.

Then when they get into some money they spend it as quickly as possible on a brand new car or house, etc. that they obviously can't afford to maintain.  Gotta buy a brand new dining-room set to impress the cousins!  It's about not having impulse control or the ability to plan, not about IQ-type intelligence.

For instance there was that girl who got about 700k for falsely accusing Brian Banks of rape and then suing her school.  Just a few years later... she's a single mother on welfare.  Couldn't spend any of that money on birth control, or a college education, or starting a business, but that is not unusual at all.  So many poor people like to shat out babies all over the place and then complain about being poor.  But nevermind that, we always have to paint poor people as helpless victims.



So, poor people don't actually live miserable lives of constant menial labor but instead pursue modest human escapes and are even generous to their friends, despite their poverty.  For shame!

But that guy who bought a yacht or a $200,000 car or his 5th house that he's never at... definitely a better person and more worthy of our respect.
 
2013-08-29 07:08:24 PM
I bet I'd be wealthier if I didn't waste so much time on this site.
 
2013-08-29 07:08:45 PM

Southern100: Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.  Poor people always have a smart phone, they can get their hair/nails done every week, they buy christmas presents for all their friends.

People today (at least those under 50-60) probably really have no concept of what being "Poor" means, and as bad as it is (today) at least it's nothing like what it used to be.  My parents used to tell me stories about what being poor used to mean. Being poor meant your mother made your clothes out of old potato sacks, and yes, you actually had to wear them to school. Being poor meant if you didn't chop enough wood for your family, you froze that winter.  Being poor meant if you didn't grow your own food (garden, chickens, etc.) your family didn't eat. Only the well-to-do had cows (which meant they got to eat beef).  I consider myself very lucky that I didn't grow up during that time.


If "other people suffered more" makes you feel better you are a literal monster.
 
2013-08-29 07:11:04 PM

marsoft: I think you are a few years out of date on that. Readjust your percentages in the bad direction.


I'm afraid to look.
 
2013-08-29 07:13:11 PM

dchurch0: "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play



There's a lot of truth to this if you look at financial products.  If you have enough money in an account, your banking is far cheaper because the bank earns enough interest on the float.  Loans are extremely cheap.

If you are poor however, and only have small amounts at any time, no bank will give you an account and you have to rely on expensive check cashing or pay-per-debit systems just to buy goods.  Then for unexpected expenses you are forced to payday or title loans with exorbitant interest rates.
 
2013-08-29 07:13:40 PM
The bottom line is that rich people are smart and better and poor people are dumb and just bad people. The guy who was almost President spent his inherited millions in a career that involved buying companies, destroying them, selling them off piece by piece for profit while the employees of those companies lost their retirement. He's awesome and better than the rest of us. But as a nation, it's those welfare mothers who are bleeding us dry!
 
2013-08-29 07:13:44 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


You would have finished your PhD by now if you weren't so poor.
 
2013-08-29 07:14:58 PM

the_chief: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

You would have finished your PhD by now if you weren't so poor.


Naaa. I have PhDs working for me now. Not worth the effort.
 
2013-08-29 07:17:02 PM

dchurch0: "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play


I've heard that put a different way: "I'm to poor to shop at Wal-Mart and always end up having to replace things".
 
2013-08-29 07:23:38 PM

marsoft: the_chief: marsoft:

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

You would have finished your PhD by now if you weren't so poor.

Naaa. I have PhDs working for me now. Not worth the effort.


So you're poor and lazy? It's just a vicious cycle of poverty for you.
 
2013-08-29 07:25:24 PM

That guy on the bike: Can't I just be poor?

/yay my Boobies on this silly thing
//only took me 11 years
///i'm been waiting to use slashies


11 years and still got filter pwned.
 
2013-08-29 07:30:38 PM

jst3p: It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.


He wasn't attempting a statistical analysis, he was offering a counter-example. A single counter-example is sufficient to disprove a claim.

/ If you're ever certain enough of your position to accuse others of stupidity, you're probably wrong
 
2013-08-29 07:37:06 PM

the_chief: marsoft: the_chief: marsoft:

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

You would have finished your PhD by now if you weren't so poor.

Naaa. I have PhDs working for me now. Not worth the effort.

So you're poor and lazy? It's just a vicious cycle of poverty for you.


You got me there :)
 
2013-08-29 07:38:48 PM
I grew up in a trailer house, and my mom has been disabled since I was 8. She was a nurse and got hurt on the job. An extremely obese man fell on her and screwed up her back to the point that she can no longer walk. My mom's only 5' 2" tall, and weighs about 100 lbs. My father was a mechanic and didn't make much money. All we had was his meager income to support a family of four, and pay for my mom's medical bills.

I remember one year all I got was an alarm clock and a robe for Christmas, and I could tell that my parents struggled just to make that happen.

I got tired of not having enough money to go skating with my friends, or go to the arcade with my friends. Do you know what it's like to watch all of your friends having a blast, but only having 50 cents at an arcade with over 50 games, and having to choose the ONE game you want to play ONCE... knowing it will be a month before you can do it again?

I hated it, so I started mowing lawns in the summer, cleaning gutters/raking leaves in the fall, scooping snow in the winter, and got a paper route when I was 11. I'd make about $10 an odd job ($20 if it was a large lawn or driveway). I got to know all of the people in our trailer park, especially the older folks who couldn't do those jobs themselves. I would basically do all their yard-work for them year round. Mow once a week, gutters twice a year, scoop the driveway when it snowed, and occasionally raking leaves (but I really hated that job). I had about 10 lots that I did that for on a regular basis, and it paid me pretty good.

I got my work permit when I was 14 so I could get a job as a dishwasher at a truck stop working 20 hours a week after school, and the day I turned 16, I started working 40 hours a week.

I bought my first car when I was 14 to learn to drive on (learners permit), then sold it and bought a '77 Monte Carlo when I was 16. I sold the datsun wagon I had previously bought and got new tires for the Monte Carlo. I miss that car...

I worked full time in restaurants (cook, server, busboy, whatever) thru high school, and put myself thru college a year after I graduated.

I'm 33 now and have an awesome career IT. I am nowhere near rich, but I can honestly say I don't really worry about money anymore.

Hopefully I will never have to live like I did when I was a child again. I don't think this article applies to me. The one thing I cherished most growing up was my library card. I loved to read and learn things, and the fact that it never cost my anything was farking fantastic.

/I'm probably just weird.
//No bootstraps here. I'm the libbiest lib that ever libbed.
///Three slashies!
 
2013-08-29 07:47:35 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Masters in what? I assume its not in anything that required learning the concept of a Gaussian distribution.
 
2013-08-29 07:51:55 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Smeggy Smurf: HindiDiscoMonster: Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity

let's not let science get in the way of a good derp... amirite?

I wint tu publick skool.  No sighency stuf wuz teecht tu us

I'm sorry, but could you translate that into english please?


I wint to publick skool.  No trans late ur trans un tym wuz teecht tu us
 
2013-08-29 07:53:44 PM

marsoft: jst3p: marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.

It made you too stupid to understand that a single anecdote isn't a valid sample size from which meaningful conclusions about complex issues can be drawn.

Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence.  When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.



I grew up dirt-farking-poor, too, and I agree with the conclusions of this study.  So my anecdotal experiences cancel out your anecdotal experiences.

By the way, there *may* be a difference between being poor in England and being poor in America (e.g., differences in access to health care, public transportation to get to work).

/earned a PhD
//not even close to being poor now
 
2013-08-29 07:57:24 PM
 After working customer service for DirecTv I realized that there is very little correlation between wealth and intelligence, in fact if there is a correlation it may be in the other direction.
"wait you can afford 5 hddvr receivers and with large screen hd flat screens and you're freaking out at me because you can't figure out how to turn them on?"
 
2013-08-29 07:59:15 PM

marsoft: austerity101: marsoft: Being poor does not make you stupid.

Of course, that's not what the study says.

Well to be specific the study says being poor drops your IQ by 13 points.  Or are we reading different studies?


FTFA:

Far from signaling that poor people are stupid, the results suggest those living on a tight budget have their effective brain power, or what the researchers called "mental bandwidth", dramatically limited by the stress of making ends meet.
 
2013-08-29 08:02:12 PM

marsoft: Ambitwistor: marsoft: When has dozens of people ever been a good sample for a scientific study?

When the effect size is large enough that you don't need a larger sample to detect significant differences.

Incorrect, as there is always a chance that the effect is only present in your sample.  The larger and more diverse the sample the less this chance is.


You know how I know you don't understand anything about statistics?

Yes, there is always a chance that the effect is only present in your sample.   That's what "statistical significance" means:  that chance is below some threshold (typically 5%).  Yes, larger sample sizes give better statistics.  No, that doesn't mean that "dozens" of samples can't achieve statistical significance.  As I said, significance is a function of both effect size and sample size.  You can detect a difference in populations either if the effect is large, or you have a lot of samples, or both.
 
2013-08-29 08:03:48 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Yep, my foster daughter came from a household that routinely had no electricity, running water and, lots of times, no food. Yet, she's an honor student in AP classes and taking college classes, as well.

Now, if I could just get her to quit being such a high school drama queen.
 
2013-08-29 08:07:17 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


The thing is, they're not talking about you, you were the child of people with the 'decision fatigue' to use a term from the Romney article linked by someone else. You didn't have to suffer the major stressors that cause the issue at hand. I'm sure you had some referred stress from being poor that you managed to overcome, but you weren't running the family finances and having to make the call that there were only jam sandwiches for your children's dinner and owning the stress and shame that comes with that.

Your parents obviously managed to do a good thing by raising you to escape the poverty, but did they escape it themselves?
 
2013-08-29 08:10:49 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: "The thing about not having much money is you have to take much more responsibility for your life. You can't pay people to watch your kids or clean your house or fix your meals. You can't necessarily afford a car or a washing machine or a home in a good school district. That's what money buys you: goods and services that make your life easier.
The working poor haven't abdicated responsibility for their lives. They're drowning in it." Link


I like that. I can work on my computer, I don't eat out, I exercise at home instead of at a gym. I cook, clean, sew my clothes, paint my house, do repairs and maintenance to it, change the oil in my car, fix flat tires and do minor repairs. You know why I"m so damn talented? I'm farking poor.
 
2013-08-29 08:11:36 PM
Thread is full of amateur psychologists, science deniers, and trolls.
 
2013-08-29 08:23:16 PM

marsoft: Sergeant Grumbles: marsoft: Ah, now this is where I can provide some evidence. When I was a younger and went on what in the UK was called "Employment Training", I ended up very quickly as a tutor for the long term unemployed. I specialised in IT skills and adult numeracy and literacy.

I can extend my sample set to several hundred people who were very intelligent but had little or no formal education, but had been written off as stupid poor people.

Many of my students went on to hold down good, well paying jobs, that usually required a degree.

I think I DO know what I am talking about, and have a decent set of numbers to back it up.

I don't think you understand what the article is saying or are giving too much credence to the headline.
It's not that the poor are truly stupid, or even incapable, it's that the mental demands of being poor are taxing their brainpower to such a degree that they have less ability to focus, think, and plan.

I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is.  If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.


"it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan"

Good job! That was a lot of effort you put into coming around to agree with the study's conclusion that poverty causes continual stress against education.
 
2013-08-29 08:33:12 PM

p0nk: Eldar Shafir, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton who worked on the research team, said it was not stress in general, but financial worries in particular, that led to a reduced ability to make sound decisions.

The nice thing about fake science is that when you put credentials behind it, it almost sounds convincing.


Chicken, egg, etc.
 
2013-08-29 08:37:25 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.




Infants can eat jam sammiches?
 
2013-08-29 08:38:51 PM

BMFPitt: p0nk: Eldar Shafir, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton who worked on the research team, said it was not stress in general, but financial worries in particular, that led to a reduced ability to make sound decisions.

The nice thing about fake science is that when you put credentials behind it, it almost sounds convincing.

Chicken, egg, etc.


Nah, it's just up to you to know what the "credentials" mean.

Buyer beware.
 
2013-08-29 08:50:22 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-29 08:52:46 PM

That guy on the bike: Can't I just be poor?

/yay my Boobies on this silly thing
//only took me 11 years
///i'm been waiting to use slashies


You got filterpwned on your 1st comment after lurking for 11 years?

www.personal.psu.edu
 
2013-08-29 09:00:57 PM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


No.... but you are not as smart as you could have been.
 
2013-08-29 09:01:29 PM
This is wonderful.   I have to say, I've never seen such a great URL: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/29/us-poverty-brain-idUSBRE97S 1 0W20130829?noreallyyoureamoron
 
2013-08-29 09:06:05 PM

bearded clamorer: That guy on the bike: Can't I just be poor?

/yay my Boobies on this silly thing
//only took me 11 years
///i'm been waiting to use slashies

You got filterpwned on your 1st comment after lurking for 11 years?

[www.personal.psu.edu image 400x233]




lulz
 
2013-08-29 09:22:45 PM

TomD9938: I did about a decade as an inner city landlord and pretty much all of my tenants were poor (except for the one stripper).

Some of them were "slow", but most of them were as smart as the average person you'd meet.

What did seperate them from stable "not poor" people was their love of partying (drinking and smoking weed / crack / meth) every day.

Making ends meet is not priority one for such people.

This study sounds like just another p.c. acedemic crusade where the conclusion was reached before the study began.


Meanwhile I did a two year volunteer stint in Africa where virtually none of my neighbors had a sixth grade education and the vast majority could neither read nor write. Yet virtually all spoke three languages, built their own house, and raised their own food.

/some liked to party, done didn't.

// I find your anecdote in general about equal to Trading Places in its sociological validity.
 
2013-08-29 09:38:03 PM

JohnBigBootay: // I find your anecdote in general about equal to Trading Places in its sociological validity.


Eight units over ten years with an average stay of a year, so about 70 to 80 families.

Pretty decent sized sample.

/ there was always money for beer and smokes
 
2013-08-29 09:45:32 PM
TomD9938:
/ there was always money for beer and smokes

Beer and smokes are cheap. TVs, iPhones and Xboxes are cheap. Refrigerators are cheap.  Getting rid of these things won't get people out of poverty because it takes much more to get out of poverty. It does, however, make poverty pass more amicably.
 
2013-08-29 09:51:18 PM
"I'm not sure how I'm going to feed my kids this week, and my power just got disconnected, and my spouse just had a heart attack and we have no insurance... But, sure! I'll just drop all those silly cares and put every bit of my brain matter into taking your little pretend quiz for your school project, College Boy."

Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.
 
2013-08-29 09:56:33 PM

WordyGrrl: Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.


There are myriad types of idiots, but at least one thinks only in black and white.
 
2013-08-29 10:05:42 PM

WordyGrrl: "I'm not sure how I'm going to feed my kids this week, and my power just got disconnected, and my spouse just had a heart attack and we have no insurance... But, sure! I'll just drop all those silly cares and put every bit of my brain matter into taking your little pretend quiz for your school project, College Boy."

Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.




You forgot those without rhythm.
 
2013-08-29 10:06:50 PM

Mugato: ////IQ doesn't mean shiat


It can mean you're not a complete moran, it seems.
 
2013-08-29 10:17:51 PM
So the financial stress that the rest of us middle- and upper-middle class working joes endure doesn't cause us the same issue? I don't even understand that premise....poor people have a govt safety net stretched out below them to save them from their bad mistakes or "stress-induced" shiatty life choices. What about us? We make a bad decision or lose a job and the stress just rolls off us? Oh please, dumb people make dumb choices and don't learn from them. This is not related to IQ.
 
2013-08-29 10:20:23 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: TomD9938:
/ there was always money for beer and smokes

Beer and smokes are cheap. TVs, iPhones and Xboxes are cheap. Refrigerators are cheap.  Getting rid of these things won't get people out of poverty because it takes much more to get out of poverty. It does, however, make poverty pass more amicably.



I provided every refrigerator for my units.  If one failed, I replaced it at no charge.

My point was that while I had to wait beyond the due date to get paid, there was always $20.00 for bullshiat.

Then they'd get all indignant when id file a u.d. against them.
 
2013-08-29 10:28:15 PM
Awesome, another scientific study debunked by Farkers' anecdotes.  I don't understand why the government doesn't just fund Fark directly to do research.
 
2013-08-29 10:41:54 PM

TomD9938: My point was that while I had to wait beyond the due date to get paid, there was always $20.00 for bullshiat.


Unless the rent was $20.00, you haven't exactly refuted my point. Saving that $20 may not make a difference in whether or not the rent gets paid.

It's just that your anecdote sounds like every other tired argument that the poor are just one cancelled cable subscription away from clawing themselves out of poverty when the money saved isn't enough to do anything with. The cost of meaningful things, the cost of getting out of poverty, is much greater than the $20 for bullshiat.
 
2013-08-29 10:53:12 PM
no, you're poor because you're smart and hence went to college.
 
2013-08-29 10:53:13 PM

Deedeemarz: I don't even understand that premise...


You don't need to be poor to be stupid.

Having a job with sufficient income to cover necessities and then some frees you up from considerable worry. Knowing you actually have some scratch to take care of emergencies, even more. Yes, you may be concerned with these things on some level, but they do not often occupy your mind.

Having a job with barely sufficient income?
What's that sound coming from my engine? Should I get it looked at? It's wasted money if nothing is wrong, but the repair bill could be huge unless I catch a problem in time. If I take it to a mechanic, I'll be short some money this paycheck. I'll have to make it up somewhere, but where? I suppose I can cut some food out... maybe turn the AC up to 78 to try and squeeze a little more out of the electric bill, but it's farking 101 degrees down here in summetime.
My tooth has been hurting. I don't know if I need to go to a dentist. I have insurance, but it's not that good. Going to be a copay. If I get my car checked I can't afford the copay at all. And I have to get a day off of work... Which is more important, my tooth or my car? If I don't have my car, I can't get to work, but a tooth is like.... permanent.
God, these glasses are hurting my eyes. I know I need a new prescription. I'd have to get another day off work to go to the eye doctor. How much even is that...? I don't have vision insurance. Glasses are insane. I guess I can just wear these some more... better than being nearsighted as all hell.
And on, and on, and on..... on top of your job and personal drama.
 
2013-08-29 11:08:48 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: TomD9938: My point was that while I had to wait beyond the due date to get paid, there was always $20.00 for bullshiat.

Unless the rent was $20.00, you haven't exactly refuted my point. Saving that $20 may not make a difference in whether or not the rent gets paid.

It's just that your anecdote sounds like every other tired argument that the poor are just one cancelled cable subscription away from clawing themselves out of poverty when the money saved isn't enough to do anything with. The cost of meaningful things, the cost of getting out of poverty, is much greater than the $20 for bullshiat.



The argument is tired because it's true.   Sorry

That's $20.00 / day, BTW.  The rent might have been that much (this was mid 90s to mid 2000s).  If a case of beer and two packs of smokes is worth losing the roof over your kids head, because boo hoo, twenty dollars isnt a thousand, so why should I try?, then all is lost for that family anyway, so sign up for section 8 and wait and pray for that ship to come in.

Not every poor family that I worked with was disfunctional either.  The failures followed definate patterns though, of wastefull spending, the worst of which was feeding their kids fast food every day.

These  (the disfunctional ones) were households lead by children, in effect.
 
2013-08-29 11:20:13 PM

Dion Fortune: The elephant in the room is that poor people LOVE to waste their money.  Everyone always talks about  "Healthy food is expensive, so poor people can't buy healthy food."  But I've NEVER seen a poor person not have enough money to spend on booze, cigarettes.  I remember reading a statistic somewhere that poor smokers spend a full 1/3rd of their income on cigarettes.


Years ago I was involved in a sketchy sales racket and encountered folks daily in similar rackets.  I remember talking to this older black guy in NYC who was selling jewelry on the street and asked him how much he made...it was some ridiculous amount...like several thousand per week.  But he looked like a bum and I said to him something along the lines of  'that is epic money, why are you such a mess'. His answer was basically that he spent almost every cent on drugs.  He absolutely did not seem like he loved it; he came across as good natured, but honest and sad about what he'd become.
 
2013-08-29 11:25:09 PM

TomD9938: The argument is tired because it's true.


If it were true, it wouldn't be an argument. Sorry.
 
2013-08-29 11:30:42 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: WordyGrrl: Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.

There are myriad types of idiots, but at least one thinks only in black and white.

Exactly, my dear. Life is never, ever, black and white. It's all gray areas. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you realize that life is a bit more complicated than you thought and requires you to think.
 
2013-08-29 11:31:00 PM

uber humper: And the rich who have never worked are stupid, too. It's about doing things that give the brain a workout.

If you sit on your ass all day long, you will be stupid. Poor, rich, whatever.

Free money doesn't improve people's lot in life.  Free money just keeps people in stasis.  Like a house cat who has never lived outdoors has, for all practical purposes, mind of a kitten. A rich kid who never works, a poor person who never works and lives on handouts/welfare will never have a fully matured brain.


All this.  correlation =\= causation

The exception to your post though, people can be educated to the point where they don't take what they have for granted.  It does have to be learned at some point, but it is possible, ruling out your absolute at the end.

On top of the obvious exception, people who choose to be lazier and stress free, to live with less because it is easier.  A matter of personal priorities, which varies widely in each individual, can influence both wealth and intelligence, instead of each influencing the other.  In fact, aside from places where education is impossible or difficult to attain, it's the norm.  Its also not always a conscious choice, and therefore irrelevant to intelligence.

You could tie self-reflection(and how intelligently it's done) with the ability to succeed.(IE setting realistic goals).

Any way you look at the topic though, it's over simplification.  Not everyone has the same potential. The "If they work hard enough, they can be filthy rich." premise is false.  You need the drive(mindset is not a part of intelligence)  and the ability.

Same thing with fat people or drug addicts.  You need a specific education(plus the intelligence to absorb it) AND psychological drive to be successful in achieving any goal.  Many people are genetically predisposed to not be able to reach X goal, as in how their brain works. (IE not the fat because of gene's argument, though that does hold some water.....it just not the only contributing factor)

/lengthy rambling concept
//tl;dr  Intelligence =\= psychological ability
 
2013-08-29 11:37:41 PM

StoPPeRmobile: WordyGrrl: "I'm not sure how I'm going to feed my kids this week, and my power just got disconnected, and my spouse just had a heart attack and we have no insurance... But, sure! I'll just drop all those silly cares and put every bit of my brain matter into taking your little pretend quiz for your school project, College Boy."

Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.

You forgot those without rhythm.

That would be a sub-class of Group 2: chicks who can spin around a pole. If they are genuinely Class 2, they will use that cash to earn a degree that gets them a job waaaay the hell away from where they danced. If they're Class 1, they'll dance until they marry the customer who got them preggers, and live off whatever benefits they get.
 
2013-08-29 11:52:53 PM
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but why does it seem like half the people in this thread read the headline but not the relatively short article?

As others have pointed out this article has nothing to do with any anecdote you have about smart or stupid rich or poor people. The article describes a relatively simple study which showed that when a person was made to think about a financial worry they did not perform as well in cognitive tests. Being poor doesn't "make you stupid" but it distracts you and exhausts you. Some people of course will do better or worse under the stress and some people will naturally start out with more or less brain power to use so there will be a variety of responses to poverty. What the study shows is just one potential aspect affecting people with financial issues. Obviously education level, personality traits, access to support and a million other things will come into play for a given individual.
 
2013-08-30 12:00:50 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: TomD9938: The argument is tired because it's true.

If it were true, it wouldn't be an argument. Sorry.


Call it a cliche, then.
 
2013-08-30 12:00:59 AM
Eh, they could've saved themselves some time and just asked me... totally been there.  I could drop 13 IQ points and MENSA would still take me; I have two jobs in space science and a third in writing and editing, but between not-so-high pay and the latter two jobs being part-time, it's a real struggle to pay off debt and feed my family.  My beloved wife doesn't quite understand why someone with my brains, skills, experience and work ethic isn't capable of prioritizing all the things she wants prioritized - I just tell her that I'm focusing on survival right now, and those things are going to have to wait.
 
2013-08-30 12:02:17 AM

tiamet4: I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but why does it seem like half the people in this thread read the headline but not the relatively short article?

As others have pointed out this article has nothing to do with any anecdote you have about smart or stupid rich or poor people. The article describes a relatively simple study which showed that when a person was made to think about a financial worry they did not perform as well in cognitive tests. Being poor doesn't "make you stupid" but it distracts you and exhausts you. Some people of course will do better or worse under the stress and some people will naturally start out with more or less brain power to use so there will be a variety of responses to poverty. What the study shows is just one potential aspect affecting people with financial issues. Obviously education level, personality traits, access to support and a million other things will come into play for a given individual.


It doesn't surprise you because you're used to normal conversation that ebbs and flows around headlines as well as article content, and people taking discussion cue's of others posts without regard to the article.

/the article/headline is a spur, not the limit, of the thread
 
2013-08-30 12:23:23 AM

omeganuepsilon: uber humper: And the rich who have never worked are stupid, too. It's about doing things that give the brain a workout.

If you sit on your ass all day long, you will be stupid. Poor, rich, whatever.

Free money doesn't improve people's lot in life.  Free money just keeps people in stasis.  Like a house cat who has never lived outdoors has, for all practical purposes, mind of a kitten. A rich kid who never works, a poor person who never works and lives on handouts/welfare will never have a fully matured brain.

All this.  correlation =\= causation

The exception to your post though, people can be educated to the point where they don't take what they have for granted.  It does have to be learned at some point, but it is possible, ruling out your absolute at the end.

On top of the obvious exception, people who choose to be lazier and stress free, to live with less because it is easier.  A matter of personal priorities, which varies widely in each individual, can influence both wealth and intelligence, instead of each influencing the other.  In fact, aside from places where education is impossible or difficult to attain, it's the norm.  Its also not always a conscious choice, and therefore irrelevant to intelligence.

You could tie self-reflection(and how intelligently it's done) with the ability to succeed.(IE setting realistic goals).

Any way you look at the topic though, it's over simplification.  Not everyone has the same potential. The "If they work hard enough, they can be filthy rich." premise is false.  You need the drive(mindset is not a part of intelligence)  and the ability.

Same thing with fat people or drug addicts.  You need a specific education(plus the intelligence to absorb it) AND psychological drive to be successful in achieving any goal.  Many people are genetically predisposed to not be able to reach X goal, as in how their brain works. (IE not the fat because of gene's argument, though that does hold some water.....it just not the only contribu ...


tl;dr -- that why god invented absolutes

/sometimes drives are physiological, that's when things really get done
 
2013-08-30 01:19:56 AM

Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity


Clumsy generalizations don't say much for your intellect either.
 
2013-08-30 01:44:46 AM

Agent Smiths Laugh: Smeggy Smurf: No, you're poor because you're lazy.  You're stupid because you are too lazy to overcome your stupidity

Clumsy generalizations don't say much for your intellect either.


You're boring because you lack a sense of humor.
 
2013-08-30 01:59:37 AM

Deedeemarz: So the financial stress that the rest of us middle- and upper-middle class working joes endure doesn't cause us the same issue? I don't even understand that premise....poor people have a govt safety net stretched out below them to save them from their bad mistakes or "stress-induced" shiatty life choices. What about us? We make a bad decision or lose a job and the stress just rolls off us? Oh please, dumb people make dumb choices and don't learn from them. This is not related to IQ.



Nutrititon.
 
2013-08-30 02:00:13 AM

WordyGrrl: i


lulz
 
2013-08-30 02:41:53 AM

WordyGrrl: StoPPeRmobile: WordyGrrl: "I'm not sure how I'm going to feed my kids this week, and my power just got disconnected, and my spouse just had a heart attack and we have no insurance... But, sure! I'll just drop all those silly cares and put every bit of my brain matter into taking your little pretend quiz for your school project, College Boy."

Two types of poor people:
1) Those who believe they are powerless, and that their lives will never improve, no matter what they do. These are the binge spenders, non-savers, frivolous types who get $20 manicures and buy $50 in lottery tickets every month. Chances are, their parents told them "Live for today, 'cause it won't get no better than this."

2) Those who seek power to improve their lives, and actively strive to find opportunities to do so in order to rebel against the poverty they were born into. They'll be way more stressed out than Group 1, and they may not actually reach that "good life" status, but some of them will. And that's enough hope to keep going.

You forgot those without rhythm.
That would be a sub-class of Group 2: chicks who can spin around a pole. If they are genuinely Class 2, they will use that cash to earn a degree that gets them a job waaaay the hell away from where they danced. If they're Class 1, they'll dance until they marry the customer who got them preggers, and live off whatever benefits they get.




Oh, there you go bringing class into it again.
 
2013-08-30 04:50:10 AM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Luxury! I had to walk up hill both ways etc..
 
2013-08-30 05:34:53 AM

marsoft: I am saying that is bullshiat. I am saying that being poor does not make you less able to focus, think or plan.

In fact I am saying the opposite can be true. It just depends on where the focus is. If you are for instance so poor you cannot afford food, it basically forces you to focus, think, and plan on how to get enough money to eat.


I'm saying that it is not bullshiat. If you are, for instance, so poor that you cannot afford food, it basically forces you focus, think, and plan on how to get food. For those who are really that poor, it has little or nothing to do with getting money to purchase food. It has a lot to do with where to find food. Behind food selling places is a good start. Their products reach a certain point in which they are still edible, yet too old to sell. Committing fraud in an attempt to cash checks is another good way. Stealing food from grocery or convenience stores often works.  I knew a guy that ate for months on items he stole from food rollers in various convenience stores when the clerks weren't looking, supplemented by stuff he found in various dumpsters.
 
2013-08-30 07:09:08 AM
we don't HAVE poor in america.
I've seen poor, and it's farking debilitating

in america for some reason
we now see being born in a lower class as a life sentence
perpetuated by 'leaders' of certain groups and communities

..foster kid born with heroin withdrawals in farking TEXAS thinks people need a bit more bootstrappyness
 
2013-08-30 07:18:32 AM
Both my parents were smart. I am smart. I am also lazy. Being smart lets me be lazy and not poor.

win-win.
 
2013-08-30 08:19:23 AM
Basically they are saying if you are stressed or preoccupied (in this case the source of the stress is money) then it affects your cognitive functioning. People of any SES can be preoccupied or feel stressed and suffer the same deficit.   Something everyone already knew.  They aren't saying that being poor actually causes you to lose IQ points,
 
2013-08-30 08:27:35 AM

dready zim: Both my parents were smart. I am smart. I am also lazy. Being smart lets me be lazy and not poor.

win-win.




static.giantbomb.com
 
2013-08-30 08:47:13 AM

marsoft: I call bullshiat.

I was born in a "poor" family.  Both of my parents were in prison until I was aged 8 (don't ask).  I grew up wearing my older brothers out grown clothes. I don't mean some of my clothes used to be his I mean all of them until I was 15, when I got a job and started buying my own.

I am talking eating jam sandwiches for dinner poor (if you got dinner).

Now?  I have a good job, a good degree, and am studying for a masters degree.

Being poor does not make you stupid.


Seconded.
Though my parents weren't in prison, just poorly paid government workers.
 
2013-08-30 10:56:10 AM

Pumpernickel bread: Basically they are saying if you are stressed or preoccupied (in this case the source of the stress is money) then it affects your cognitive functioning. People of any SES can be preoccupied or feel stressed and suffer the same deficit.   Something everyone already knew.  They aren't saying that being poor actually causes you to lose IQ points,


While true for some, stress being a roadblock, it's not an unbreakable golden rule.  Plenty of people use that stress as a motivator and end up better than when they started.
 
2013-08-30 12:43:18 PM
Some more generalities:

Many people (not all, but many) people are rich merely because their parents were rich.

Poor people are less likely to be treated for life-impairing mental illnesses like depression than rich people; they can't afford the medication or their problems are misdiagnosed as personal deficiencies.

Poor people can raise themselves out of their circumstances, but the bar is set much higher for them. They don't have the right connections or financial or familial support, and they often don't have the safety net of those supports when they're starting out or when hard times strike.

Parents of both the rich and the poor often don't do a good job in preparing their kids for the real world.  Rich kids can go to a prestigious school or another vaunted institution that will fill in the gaps that the parents can't or won't provide.  Poor kids are far less likely to have those options open to them.

Malcolm Gladwell explains some of this better in Outliers.  To sum up, hard work is important, but there are other factors out of your control that can make or break you.
 
2013-08-30 03:28:38 PM
To put it more simply: wealth is a buffer between your mistakes and the impact of those mistakes.  The wealthier you are, the more mistakes or the larger the mistakes you can make without being adversely affected by the consequences.

When you're poor, every roll is a saving throw vs. socioeconomic disaster.

/Mom was the first person from either side of her family to go to college; worked her way through a state school as a checker at Safeway
//The fact that I can pull 6 figures without a degree is more a tribute to how awesome she is than how awesome I am
 
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