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(The Atlantic)   George Will has fallen into that old college student trap: failing to read the sources he cites in his political rhetoric   (theatlantic.com) divider line 104
    More: Dumbass, George Will, rhetoric, students, March on Washington, American racism, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, institutional racism, black man  
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4089 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Aug 2013 at 1:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-28 11:18:13 PM  
Subby has fallen into that old elementary school trap of confusing "cites" and "sites."
 
2013-08-28 11:49:32 PM  
I love green typos. Admins are at the bar.
 
2013-08-28 11:57:37 PM  
More likely, he's citing a bad web site instead of citing the study.
 
2013-08-28 11:59:15 PM  

R.A.Danny: I love green typos. Admins are at the bar.


Or admins are back from the bar.
 
2013-08-29 12:12:49 AM  

WelldeadLink: R.A.Danny: I love green typos. Admins are at the bar.

Or admins are back from the bar.


Back where? Does Fark have an office?
 
2013-08-29 12:17:09 AM  
Headline: failing to read the sources he sites

i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-29 01:17:40 AM  
Rotsky'd in the headline. Nice.
 
2013-08-29 01:22:10 AM  

Triumph: Subby has fallen into that old elementary school trap of confusing "cites" and "sites."


See: sights.
 
2013-08-29 01:28:39 AM  

Kevin72: Triumph: Subby has fallen into that old elementary school trap of confusing "cites" and "sites."

See: sights.


Great... another sights seer
 
2013-08-29 01:36:48 AM  
Confusing site with cite is a sight to see.
 
2013-08-29 01:39:06 AM  
Simple Sally sights Susan selling sea cites at the sea shore
 
2013-08-29 01:43:14 AM  
Let's all attack the typo in the headline and not savage Will for TOTALLY misrepresenting Moynihan, shall we?

The point that Will missed, in his haste to pillory blacks for all their single-mom households, which the article made and Farkers have ignored in their chortling over Subby's spelling error, is that Moynihan was quite right to note that racism in America is pretty much directly responsible for black women having to raise kids all on their own while their men are incarcerated or otherwise absent. A fact which Will apparently disregarded or deliberately chose to ignore.

You may now return to feeling superior because you know the difference between "cite" and "site."
 
2013-08-29 01:45:06 AM  
What a strange article.
 
2013-08-29 01:45:46 AM  

ad_rizzle: Rotsky'd in the headline. Nice.


/Needs a "pet peeve" tag.
//Gyrfalcon sounds like subby
 
2013-08-29 02:10:24 AM  

Gyrfalcon: You may now return to feeling superior because you know the difference between "cite" and "site."


Thanks. That part is important to me.
 
2013-08-29 02:20:36 AM  

starsrift: Gyrfalcon: You may now return to feeling superior because you know the difference between "cite" and "site."

Thanks. That part is important to me.


Smart button for one of you, Funny button for the other. I'll leave it to you to figure out who gets which.
 
2013-08-29 02:20:52 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Let's all attack the typo in the headline and not savage Will for TOTALLY misrepresenting Moynihan, shall we?

The point that Will missed, in his haste to pillory blacks for all their single-mom households, which the article made and Farkers have ignored in their chortling over Subby's spelling error, is that Moynihan was quite right to note that racism in America is pretty much directly responsible for black women having to raise kids all on their own while their men are incarcerated or otherwise absent. A fact which Will apparently disregarded or deliberately chose to ignore.
...


Is Will one of the Pat Buchanan types who think the Civil War instantly brought absolute racial equality and any problems thereafter are entirely the fault of blacks and liberals? I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.
 
2013-08-29 03:08:25 AM  
Is Will one of the Pat Buchanan types who think the Civil War instantly brought absolute racial equality and any problems thereafter are entirely the fault of blacks and liberals? I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.

This or that everything was fine as of 1965 are core GOP assumptions.
 
2013-08-29 03:12:34 AM  

eiger: Is Will one of the Pat Buchanan types who think the Civil War instantly brought absolute racial equality and any problems thereafter are entirely the fault of blacks and liberals? I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.

This or that everything was fine as of 196555 are core GOP assumptions.


FTFY

/that liberal Eisenhower f*cked everything up
 
2013-08-29 03:15:17 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: eiger: Is Will one of the Pat Buchanan types who think the Civil War instantly brought absolute racial equality and any problems thereafter are entirely the fault of blacks and liberals? I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.

This or that everything was fine as of 196555 are core GOP assumptions.

FTFY

/that liberal Eisenhower f*cked everything up


Apparently, some people haven't forgiven him for highways.
 
2013-08-29 03:20:12 AM  
One thing I can look forward to during an anniversary of a civil rights milestone - being amused by wealthy white men holding forth on the problems with the black community.
 
2013-08-29 03:32:31 AM  

goatleggedfellow: I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.


Will is a fun one, he has a PhD in political philosophy and was for a time a professor. He was at one time a fairly genial if somewhat rigid commentator. Over the years, especially the last dozen or so he's gotten well a bit derpy.
 
2013-08-29 03:35:22 AM  

WhyteRaven74: goatleggedfellow: I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.

Will is a fun one, he has a PhD in political philosophy and was for a time a professor. He was at one time a fairly genial if somewhat rigid commentator. Over the years, especially the last dozen or so he's gotten well a bit derpy.


Didn't he write a column a few decades ago on the evils of blue jeans?
 
2013-08-29 03:47:20 AM  

Alphax: Didn't he write a column a few decades ago on the evils of blue jeans?


He did.
 
2013-08-29 03:56:56 AM  

WhyteRaven74: goatleggedfellow: I'm curious, but can't suffer to read his tripe.

Will is a fun one, he has a PhD in political philosophy and was for a time a professor. He was at one time a fairly genial if somewhat rigid commentator. Over the years, especially the last dozen or so he's gotten well a bit derpy.


I used to read his stuff occasionally, but I can't take him seriously. I swear he can't actually write about Obama's election without using the phrase "apotheosis of Obama". The world has passed him by.
 
2013-08-29 04:04:07 AM  

goatleggedfellow: he phrase "apotheosis of Obama"


Yeah his word choices make him sound even worse over the last few years. And it's not so much that the world has passed him by so much as he just appears to have never really gained much sense of experience and over the years that builds up. It's as if he decided that only what's in books and academic journals is valid and anything that doesn't fit can just be dismissed.
 
2013-08-29 04:10:12 AM  
Coates is wrong, and it's not debatable.  Racism isn't what produced single-parent households amongst blacks.  Lack of well-paying jobs for uneducated black men is.

The same phenomenon has affected Hispanic families, and now working class white families.  The biggest difference between poor blacks and poor whites is timing.  Working class whites are where poor blacks were 30 years ago, and 30 years from now, working class whites will be where poor blacks are today.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan predicted this decades in advance, with uncanny precision, which is why Ta-Nehisi Coates's inaccurate distortion of his views ("it's racism's fault") is so especially irritating.
 
2013-08-29 04:14:03 AM  
I don't see anything in George Will's quote which is inaccurate, inflammatory, or off-the-mark.  In the year 2013, the breakdown of the black nuclear family, with its attendant effects, is more of a hardship than racism.
 
2013-08-29 04:15:14 AM  

ad_rizzle: Rrotsky'd in the headline. Nice.


/sorry, pet peeve
 
2013-08-29 04:18:11 AM  

WhyteRaven74: goatleggedfellow: he phrase "apotheosis of Obama"

Yeah his word choices make him sound even worse over the last few years. And it's not so much that the world has passed him by so much as he just appears to have never really gained much sense of experience and over the years that builds up. It's as if he decided that only what's in books and academic journals is valid and anything that doesn't fit can just be dismissed.


It's almost the definition of conservatism.
 
2013-08-29 05:00:24 AM  
Alphax:  Didn't he write a column a few decades ago on the evils of blue jeans?

Decades?  Try 2009.

Edmund Burke [...] said: "To make us love our country, our country ought to be lovely." Ours would be much more so if supposed grown-ups would heed St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, and St. Barack's inaugural sermon to the Americans, by putting away childish things, starting with denim.
 
2013-08-29 05:26:21 AM  

Captain Dan: I don't see anything in George Will's quote which is inaccurate, inflammatory, or off-the-mark.  In the year 2013, the breakdown of the black nuclear family, with its attendant effects, is more of a hardship than racism.


Well, he just cited a study (which is fifty years old, but okay) as evidence for his position that black Americans are messed up because of the breakdown of the family unit.  The conclusion of the study he cited (which is still very old and it's weird for him to not know anything more recent) is that racism is a major cause of that breakdown, a conclusion which he appears to reject without explanation.  It's nonsensical to say that racism is less important than "the breakdown of the black nuclear family," as they're interlinked.
 
2013-08-29 05:30:30 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Let's all attack the typo in the headline and not savage Will for TOTALLY misrepresenting Moynihan, shall we?

The point that Will missed, in his haste to pillory blacks for all their single-mom households, which the article made and Farkers have ignored in their chortling over Subby's spelling error, is that Moynihan was quite right to note that racism in America is pretty much directly responsible for black women having to raise kids all on their own while their men are incarcerated or otherwise absent. A fact which Will apparently disregarded or deliberately chose to ignore.

You may now return to feeling superior because you know the difference between "cite" and "site."


So basically everything Will said was correct, his error was in omitting the "because", as in because of the  abuses of African Americans in American history.

In other words, there was no error at all, just more stupid liberals interested in who to blame for a problem as opposed to how their "solutions" are making the problem worse.

Because of slavery, somehow the number of stable nuclear black families has declined precipitously since 1960.  It has nothing to do with idiot liberals and their idiot policies that encourage single motherhood and marginalize fatherhood.  It has nothing to do with putting leaders like Al Sharpton on a pedestal, leaders who  don't really care what the real problem is or how to promote individual responsibility.
No sir.

What a bunch of dumbasses.
You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.
 
2013-08-29 05:44:34 AM  

Animatronik: It has nothing to do with idiot liberals and their idiot policies that encourage single motherhood and marginalize fatherhood.


Could you be more specific?
 
2013-08-29 05:47:21 AM  
i915.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-29 05:48:31 AM  

Animatronik: It has nothing to do with idiot liberals and their idiot policies that encourage single motherhood and marginalize fatherhood.


You realize television sit-coms are only partly based on fact?
 
2013-08-29 06:39:17 AM  
People still read that cretin and care what he has to say about anything?

Been a resurgence of old white men publicly telling black folks what their problems are, it seems.
 
2013-08-29 06:51:15 AM  

Animatronik: You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.


How can you solve a problem without knowing its cause?
 
2013-08-29 06:52:29 AM  
That's really not any more of a stretch than most academic citations and references.  I don't think he's intending to put words in the other dude's mouth, he's citing a particular fact from the study and adding his own conjecture.

There's plenty of reasons to think Will is a stupid farker, but this isn't really one of them.  At worst he's guilty of the separation between the reference and his extrapolation being somewhat unclear, which is always an issue when you're not footnoting and sometimes when you are.

//Grabbing conclusions from an article and using them to claim something very close to opposite what the paper was actually getting at is better than 99% of science reporting, because at least you're actually generally talking about the correct field of science.
 
2013-08-29 06:54:40 AM  

TFerWannaBe: Animatronik: You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.

How can you solve a problem without knowing its cause?


Tax cuts?
 
2013-08-29 06:56:21 AM  

Animatronik: Gyrfalcon: Let's all attack the typo in the headline and not savage Will for TOTALLY misrepresenting Moynihan, shall we?

The point that Will missed, in his haste to pillory blacks for all their single-mom households, which the article made and Farkers have ignored in their chortling over Subby's spelling error, is that Moynihan was quite right to note that racism in America is pretty much directly responsible for black women having to raise kids all on their own while their men are incarcerated or otherwise absent. A fact which Will apparently disregarded or deliberately chose to ignore.

You may now return to feeling superior because you know the difference between "cite" and "site."

So basically everything Will said was correct, his error was in omitting the "because", as in because of the  abuses of African Americans in American history.

In other words, there was no error at all, just more stupid liberals interested in who to blame for a problem as opposed to how their "solutions" are making the problem worse.

Because of slavery, somehow the number of stable nuclear black families has declined precipitously since 1960.  It has nothing to do with idiot liberals and their idiot policies that encourage single motherhood and marginalize fatherhood.  It has nothing to do with putting leaders like Al Sharpton on a pedestal, leaders who  don't really care what the real problem is or how to promote individual responsibility.
No sir.

What a bunch of dumbasses.
Youworrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.


As opposed to you, who just want to blame everything on LIBSLIBSLIBS, and the only solution for anything is tax breaks for the wealthy and blaming victims?
 
2013-08-29 06:57:04 AM  

TFerWannaBe: Animatronik: You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.

How can you solve a problem without knowing its cause?


Invade Iraq?
 
2013-08-29 07:03:00 AM  
Go back to ranting about how the DH will destroy western civilization, Goerge
 
2013-08-29 07:11:08 AM  

Captain Dan: Coates is wrong, and it's not debatable.  Racism isn't what produced single-parent households amongst blacks.  Lack of well-paying jobs for uneducated black men is.


You should read the comments under the article. Denying the importance of racism as a factor is itself a form of racism. Will and his ilk are, consciously or not, pushing the idea that black Americans are the source of their own problems.

Do you really believe that the lack of education among black men had absolutely nothing to do with racism? Or that discriminatory hiring practices had nothing to do with the fact that uneducated white men still fared better than uneducated black men?
 
2013-08-29 07:13:28 AM  

Captain Dan: Coates is wrong, and it's not debatable.  Racism isn't what produced single-parent households amongst blacks.  Lack of well-paying jobs for uneducated black men is.

The same phenomenon has affected Hispanic families, and now working class white families.  The biggest difference between poor blacks and poor whites is timing.  Working class whites are where poor blacks were 30 years ago, and 30 years from now, working class whites will be where poor blacks are today.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan predicted this decades in advance, with uncanny precision, which is why Ta-Nehisi Coates's inaccurate distortion of his views ("it's racism's fault") is so especially irritating.


Why the 30 year discrepancy between blacks and people of other skin pigmentation if not racism?  Your'e saying that young black men, who first learn how to respond and react to authority before even learning how to read and thus obviously at fault for failing to meet education standards, lacking employment opportunities that offer livable wages, opportunities, and successes, 30 years earlier than the rest of society, isn't because of racism?  

Along with focusing on a typo, this thread is also missing the part of the actual findings (not Will's misinterpretation) that's going to catch up to a lot more people real soon:  our culture (for some reason) still clings to the idea of male domination, of work and home, and even though women have made a lot of progress in the workplace, they've been running homes and families much longer, and yet somehow their children are considered disadvantaged.  While fewer in occurrence, single fathers are commended, and you'd never hear "the problem is no mother around for a woman's influence" (unless it was in regards to some sexist stereotype like domestic skills)
 
2013-08-29 07:17:37 AM  

Animatronik: You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.


Or you could do both, but then you have nothing left to do during the weekend.
 
2013-08-29 07:20:02 AM  

TFerWannaBe: Animatronik: You can spend your life worrying about "because" and who to blame without solving a single problem.

How can you solve a problem without knowing its cause?


I'd rather spend my whole life worrying about 'because' than waste my whole life assuming liberalism is the cause of every bad thing in the universe when, in fact, 'liberalism' is the only mindset in the entirety of human history that has ever actually solved a problem and/or advanced civilization.

Animatronik, your entire post is based on the wholly-unfounded assumption that American blacks have ever had a history of significant percentages of 'stable households'. You're confusing an increase of reporting with an increase in actuality, man.
 
2013-08-29 07:20:34 AM  
anyone notice that subby said "sites" instead of "cites"?

/pet peave
 
2013-08-29 07:22:38 AM  
Will quoted moynihan's accurate comments regarding the problem of illegitimacy and single parenthood, while ignoring moynihan's incorrect assessment of why the problem occurred. At least in Will's opinion.

I don't see the problem.
 
2013-08-29 07:28:40 AM  

Gyrfalcon: is that Moynihan was quite right to note that racism in America is pretty much directly responsible for black women having to raise kids all on their own while their men are incarcerated or otherwise absent.


Moynihan claiming that it's so doesn't make it so. Maybe racism is responsible. Maybe it's not, and black men are incarcerated or otherwise absent because many of them want to lead lifestyles which are ill-adapted to fatherhood in western democracies. Maybe it's both.
 
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