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(Opposing Views)   Lando Calrissian lives. NASA scientist want to build sky cities hovering over Venus where the climate is really nice. Really, it is   (opposingviews.com) divider line 89
    More: Cool, NASA scientists, NASA, Venus, Life on Venus, pounds per square inch, earthlings, interstellar travel, climate  
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2765 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Aug 2013 at 5:50 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-28 05:47:50 PM
Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.
 
2013-08-28 05:55:02 PM
So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?
 
2013-08-28 06:03:25 PM

simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.


If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.
 
2013-08-28 06:04:16 PM

Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?


We should just stay on Earth like God intended.
 
2013-08-28 06:04:16 PM
img822.imageshack.us

Will it be called Bluthton?
 
2013-08-28 06:09:41 PM
Columbia in space?
 
2013-08-28 06:10:11 PM

TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.


Easy peasy. Our planet's magnetosphere extends a mere 65,000 km towards the sun. Inside that is our ionosphere, a region of the upper atmosphere from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude including the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is distinguished because it is ionized by solar radiation. But a strong enough magnet should do it.
 
2013-08-28 06:13:14 PM

simplicimus: TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.

Easy peasy. Our planet's magnetosphere extends a mere 65,000 km towards the sun. Inside that is our ionosphere, a region of the upper atmosphere from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude including the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is distinguished because it is ionized by solar radiation. But a strong enough magnet should do it.


I was thinking it would be easier just to build a giant dome out of some transparent but radiation blocking material.

As for flotation, maybe an upsized variant of what they did in Doctor Who with the Valiant:

i58.photobucket.com

You'd just need many more turbofans for something city-sized, and probably a few nuclear plants to drive them all, but by the time we build this we'll likely have fusion figured out, so that will help.
 
2013-08-28 06:14:01 PM

simplicimus: TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.

Easy peasy. Our planet's magnetosphere extends a mere 65,000 km towards the sun. Inside that is our ionosphere, a region of the upper atmosphere from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude including the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is distinguished because it is ionized by solar radiation. But a strong enough magnet should do it.


3.bp.blogspot.com

/Oblig.
 
2013-08-28 06:14:22 PM

Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?


36,000 repulsorlift engines and tractor beam generators, just like every other floating city. Jeez.
 
2013-08-28 06:16:23 PM

TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.

Easy peasy. Our planet's magnetosphere extends a mere 65,000 km towards the sun. Inside that is our ionosphere, a region of the upper atmosphere from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude including the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is distinguished because it is ionized by solar radiation. But a strong enough magnet should do it.

I was thinking it would be easier just to build a giant dome out of some transparent but radiation blocking material.

As for flotation, maybe an upsized variant of what they did in Doctor Who with the Valiant:

[640x368 from http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g265/jmsprovan/1.png image 640x368]

You'd just need many more turbofans for something city-sized, and probably a few nuclear plants to drive them all, but by the time we build this we'll likely have fusion figured out, so that will help.


Oh, and your dome needs to be resistant to sulfuric acid. Like really resistant.
 
2013-08-28 06:19:40 PM
I'm of the opinion that we're still too primitive to consider colonizing other planets. The desire of visiting other planetary bodies is necessary for our growth and sustainability as a species, but not when our current societies and earth environment are continuing their steadfast degradation and collapse.
 
2013-08-28 06:19:46 PM

simplicimus: TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.

Easy peasy. Our planet's magnetosphere extends a mere 65,000 km towards the sun. Inside that is our ionosphere, a region of the upper atmosphere from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude including the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is distinguished because it is ionized by solar radiation. But a strong enough magnet should do it.

I was thinking it would be easier just to build a giant dome out of some transparent but radiation blocking material.

As for flotation, maybe an upsized variant of what they did in Doctor Who with the Valiant:

[640x368 from http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g265/jmsprovan/1.png image 640x368]

You'd just need many more turbofans for something city-sized, and probably a few nuclear plants to drive them all, but by the time we build this we'll likely have fusion figured out, so that will help.

Oh, and your dome needs to be resistant to sulfuric acid. Like really resistant.


Wait, I thought the whole reason we were making this city float was to stay above the sulfuric acid.  Are you telling me that the sulfuric acid can still get up there?  This is beginning to sound like a floating domed Venetian city wasn't the most practical idea.
 
2013-08-28 06:22:57 PM
FTA: Landis is not the first theoretician to propose colonizing Venus. In a 1991 paper in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Paul Birch outlined a plan that would use a system of mirrors to reflect the sun's rays off the surface of Venus, bringing surface temperatures down to livable human levels.

Either they're deliberately avoiding the far simpler possibility of living inside planets, where it's much safer, and probably a much more common place for life throughout the universe, because they don't want the public to know it's common and keep thinking dead surface means no life. Or these people are coming up with these elaborate wiley coyote ideas because they're just that stupid.
 
2013-08-28 06:27:16 PM
In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.
 
2013-08-28 06:32:16 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Wait, I thought the whole reason we were making this city float was to stay above the sulfuric acid.  Are you telling me that the sulfuric acid can still get up there?  This is beginning to sound like a floating domed Venetian city wasn't the most practical idea.


Yep, top layer of the troposphere, 65 km from the surface. I have some thoughts for a solution:

Dump metric buttloads of Carbon into the upper atmosphere. The following might occur (don't know if this will work at the temperatures there):
C + 2 H2SO4 → CO2 + 2 SO2 + 2 H2O.
Or metric buttloads of sulfur:S + 2 H2SO4 → 3 SO2 + 2 H2O.
 
2013-08-28 06:33:25 PM

TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.


How hard could a protective magnetic shield be for people who are build flying cities? On another planet!
 
2013-08-28 06:33:57 PM

Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.


I'm guessing QA will sit this one out. We had the same floating city thing pop up in a different thread yesterday.
 
2013-08-28 06:36:18 PM
You could float a hab of sorts in the venerian atmosphere; to "float" only requires the correct relative displacement, whether the fluid is an ocean or a gas.  The atmosphere on Venus is much denser than Earth's so wings need not be as large to get the same amount of lift, and a gasbag would not have to be as large to float a meaningful payload.  A sphere large enough, yet light and and crush-resistant enough could be made to float in that soup of gasses.  Still, there are the problems of corrosive atmo and high temps, but floating in a Venerian stratosphere is quite preferable to the hell that is the surface.
 
2013-08-28 06:39:26 PM
"No capes."
 
2013-08-28 06:39:43 PM

FunkOut: Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?

We should just stay on Earth like God intended.


Venus' atmosphere is much denser than Earth's. If you pressurized the city to 1 atm of the nitrogen/oxygen mixture we breath then it would float in the much denser CO2 atmosphere of Venus.
 
2013-08-28 06:43:59 PM

Any Pie Left: You could float a hab of sorts in the venerian atmosphere; to "float" only requires the correct relative displacement, whether the fluid is an ocean or a gas.  The atmosphere on Venus is much denser than Earth's so wings need not be as large to get the same amount of lift, and a gasbag would not have to be as large to float a meaningful payload.  A sphere large enough, yet light and and crush-resistant enough could be made to float in that soup of gasses.  Still, there are the problems of corrosive atmo and high temps, but floating in a Venerian stratosphere is quite preferable to the hell that is the surface.


How would atmospheric storms, turbulence, etc, effect a passively floating city though?  You'd need to have some sort of control to keep it level and to keep it from starting to spin too fast.

It seems that the big benefit of Venus, according to the author, is the atmosphere at very high altitudes.  If we build a domed city on the Moon or Mars however we'd have our own atmosphere inside, and we wouldn't have to worry about floating it or corrosive gases (though we'd need some sort of protection against meteors and other falling debris).  If you built it with a large enough interior arboretum it would create its own self sustaining atmosphere.
 
2013-08-28 06:47:23 PM
The best thing that could happen to Venus is to side-swipe it with a small moon and blow away half it's atmosphere.  That would help make it terraformable And of course, be way cool to see.
 
2013-08-28 06:48:34 PM
Dibs on Droxine.
 
2013-08-28 06:54:37 PM

Any Pie Left: The best thing that could happen to Venus is to side-swipe it with a small moon and blow away half it's atmosphere.


I think its atmosphere is produced by volcanic activity. What would be good is if it got sent out beyond Mars, where the heat trapping effect of its atmosphere would balance with distance from the sun making it habitable.
 
2013-08-28 07:03:50 PM

Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?


You can easily get levistones from the ice caverns of Venus
 
2013-08-28 07:09:16 PM

TuteTibiImperes: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

If you can figure out a way to make a city float, I'm sure you could figure out a way to create a radiation shield.


atthebuzzerpodcast.files.wordpress.com
QUANTUM MECHANICS!
 
2013-08-28 07:12:08 PM

Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?


Pretty damn easily when Earth-nominal atmosphere composition and pressure is highly buoyant on Venus. The engineering problems I can see with it are radiation shielding that can withstand gaseous sulfuric acid, and getting ballast there that is equally resistant.
 
2013-08-28 07:15:26 PM
As long as we're talking implausible ideas, based technology that won't exist for 1000 years, why not use a tractor beam to pull the CO2 off Venus and deposit it on Mars. The power of the tractor beam could be used simultaneously to break the molecules apart to create the right balance of CO2 and O2 to warm Mars and support life.
 
2013-08-28 07:17:48 PM
I'll bet ONE MILLION DOLLARS that no one alive in this era lives to see anything like this happen.

This is like the old "flying cars" and moving sidewalks thing they were sure was coming in the 1950's, it may be possible, but it's certainly not probable or currently feasable.

May as well hold your breath for warp drive and molecular transporters while you're at it.

Oh, and those stupid cordless communicators too....wait, wut?
 
2013-08-28 07:25:06 PM

simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.


Just spin that sucker up to a 19 Earth-hour day and let it generate its own magnetosphere.

Meanwhile...

i309.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-28 07:29:01 PM

that bosnian sniper: Fizpez: So... aside from every single other logistical problem, how, exactly would you "float" a city at 31 miles up?  Does gravity not work on Venus?  Is there a special "solid phase" of the atmosphere at that height you could build upon?

Pretty damn easily when Earth-nominal atmosphere composition and pressure is highly buoyant on Venus. The engineering problems I can see with it are radiation shielding that can withstand gaseous sulfuric acid, and getting ballast there that is equally resistant.


They're specifically discussing a region where the pressure is closer to 1 earth atmosphere - you would not have the super buoyancy of something much nearer the surface as the overall density would have to be MUCH lower to produce that little pressure.  Probably possible to have an enclosed oxygen/nitrogen at 1 atm still be buoyant but not enough to float all the infrastructure unless you are enclosing hundreds of cubic miles of air per building.
 
2013-08-28 07:32:11 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: simplicimus: Ok, one more time, Venus does not a magnetic field similar to earth's. People are looking for strange places to die of radiation poisoning: surface of Mars, floating above Venus.

Just spin that sucker up to a 19 Earth-hour day and let it generate its own magnetosphere.

Meanwhile...

[430x520 from http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk383/stsasser/vbsoda_zps0efd5982.j pg image 430x520]


And for a bonus, the Carbon export solves global warming!!!
 
2013-08-28 07:49:16 PM
Given we are decades away from reliable  and reasonable fast trips to other planets , i'd think they would have time to work out how to make the city float.
 
2013-08-28 07:51:44 PM

big pig peaches: As long as we're talking implausible ideas, based technology that won't exist for 1000 years, why not use a tractor beam to pull the CO2 off Venus and deposit it on Mars. The power of the tractor beam could be used simultaneously to break the molecules apart to create the right balance of CO2 and O2 to warm Mars and support life.


Just build a large tube from Venus to Mars. The pressure differential will move the atmosphere from Venus to Mars.
 
2013-08-28 07:56:16 PM
Landis system?
 
2013-08-28 08:01:13 PM

grimlock1972: Given we are decades away from reliable  and reasonable fast trips to other planets , i'd think they would have time to work out how to make the city float.


By then the plans will be several times more ridiculous. We've already gone from gigantic mirrors to inflatable orbital cities in a mere 12 years.
 
2013-08-28 08:14:21 PM
Or 22 years, even.
 
2013-08-28 08:21:23 PM

Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.


Man, this is the kind of absurd BS that makes me empathize with QA. The proposal may be theoretically possible, but it's absurdly expensive, requires technology we're centuries (at least) away from developing and is utterly pointless.

And I'm the kind of pie-in-the-sky type who thinks asteroid mining is completely feasible.
 
2013-08-28 08:22:56 PM

J. Frank Parnell: grimlock1972: Given we are decades away from reliable  and reasonable fast trips to other planets , i'd think they would have time to work out how to make the city float.

By then the plans will be several times more ridiculous. We've already gone from gigantic mirrors to inflatable orbital cities in a mere 12 years.


true enough .
 
2013-08-28 08:23:38 PM

Gunther: Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.

Man, this is the kind of absurd BS that makes me empathize with QA. The proposal may be theoretically possible, but it's absurdly expensive, requires technology we're centuries (at least) away from developing and is utterly pointless.

And I'm the kind of pie-in-the-sky type who thinks asteroid mining is completely feasible.


I think asteroid mining is feasible, if you use machines rather than humans.
 
2013-08-28 08:26:16 PM
lol...this is the setting of a novel I am writing.
Funny to see the idea on Fark.
 
2013-08-28 08:26:59 PM

Gunther: Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.

Man, this is the kind of absurd BS that makes me empathize with QA. The proposal may be theoretically possible, but it's absurdly expensive, requires technology we're centuries (at least) away from developing and is utterly pointless.

And I'm the kind of pie-in-the-sky type who thinks asteroid mining is completely feasible.


Back in the 60s, we were supposed to be centuries away from computers small enough to hold in the palm of your hand.
 
2013-08-28 08:27:58 PM

Gunther: Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.

Man, this is the kind of absurd BS that makes me empathize with QA. The proposal may be theoretically possible, but it's absurdly expensive, requires technology we're centuries (at least) away from developing and is utterly pointless.

And I'm the kind of pie-in-the-sky type who thinks asteroid mining is completely feasible.


actually...completely doable with current tech...just not with current economic models.
 
2013-08-28 08:33:02 PM
I think the more important question is, why the hell would we WANT to build a floating city on Venus? I mean what's floating up there that would cause somebody to build a city there in the first place? We build our cities because it makes sense to have a community there, cause of natural resources, location on trade routes, etc. What exactly would be the point of placing a city there? Sure you could use it as a base for expeditions to the surface, but it's not like you'd be able to keep anything on the surface long enough to support mining operations or whatnot.

Seems like it'd be best to just write off Venus for anything other than scientific exploration and focus on something like Mars or the moons of Jupiter that would make more sense to build settlements on.
 
2013-08-28 08:41:08 PM

CRtwenty: I think the more important question is, why the hell would we WANT to build a floating city on Venus? I mean what's floating up there that would cause somebody to build a city there in the first place? We build our cities because it makes sense to have a community there, cause of natural resources, location on trade routes, etc. What exactly would be the point of placing a city there? Sure you could use it as a base for expeditions to the surface, but it's not like you'd be able to keep anything on the surface long enough to support mining operations or whatnot.

Seems like it'd be best to just write off Venus for anything other than scientific exploration and focus on something like Mars or the moons of Jupiter that would make more sense to build settlements on.


easy...smelting (asteroids)  or other energy intensive manufacturing. (Or in my novel growing trees)
The high temps closer to the surface (due to high pressure of gas) would run unlimited number of electrical steam generators.
 
2013-08-28 08:46:17 PM

Gunther: Gone to Plaid: In before QA tells us, yet again, how 3D printing is childish wishful thinking.

Man, this is the kind of absurd BS that makes me empathize with QA. The proposal may be theoretically possible, but it's absurdly expensive, requires technology we're centuries (at least) away from developing and is utterly pointless.

And I'm the kind of pie-in-the-sky type who thinks asteroid mining is completely feasible.


My comment was less about how awesome/absurd 3D printing is and more on the fact that QA feels the need to bring it up every time there is a discussion on "what if" technologies of the future.
 
2013-08-28 08:47:10 PM
Would it be better to live on a Jovian or Saturnian moon?
 
2013-08-28 08:48:50 PM

J. Frank Parnell: FTA: Landis is not the first theoretician to propose colonizing Venus. In a 1991 paper in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Paul Birch outlined a plan that would use a system of mirrors to reflect the sun's rays off the surface of Venus, bringing surface temperatures down to livable human levels.

Either they're deliberately avoiding the far simpler possibility of living inside planets, where it's much safer, and probably a much more common place for life throughout the universe, because they don't want the public to know it's common and keep thinking dead surface means no life. Or these people are coming up with these elaborate wiley coyote ideas because they're just that stupid.


I think if they got the technology to somehow do floating cities, why even bother? Wouldn't it be just easier to do a space station colony at that point?
 
2013-08-28 08:50:18 PM

FunkOut: Would it be better to live on a Jovian or Saturnian moon?


not really.....the amount of radiation they throw off would kill a person in a day. However, out of all of them, Europa is the best due to one can hide/be shielded under its water surface.
 
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