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(Slate)   While best known for his crusade to eliminate racial discrimination, Dr. King also had some ideas on how to eliminate poverty; ideas shared by Thomas Paine, John Kenneth Galbraith, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman   (slate.com) divider line 197
    More: Hero, Friedrich Hayek, John Kenneth Galbraith, Thomas Paine, Dr. King, Milton Friedman, March on Washington, life satisfaction, poverty  
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3487 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Aug 2013 at 5:52 PM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-28 02:00:57 PM
A robust public safety net and system of social services is a good thing. Full stop.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-28 02:07:44 PM
Having a basic income would place a limit on how much the wealthy could screw the middle class over.  If they had to pay for people thrown into unemployment they might think before pushing policies that create unemployment.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-28 02:16:28 PM
I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.
 
2013-08-28 02:22:03 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


Or that he created the system of employer withholding from paychecks to pay income taxes.
 
2013-08-28 02:28:04 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


I can't be certain that the loudest amongst them even know who Friedman is.
 
2013-08-28 02:37:13 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


EIC is essential a negative income tax.
 
2013-08-28 02:38:52 PM

Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..


Did you mean Jonathan Swift?
 
2013-08-28 03:18:01 PM

minoridiot: Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..

Did you mean Jonathan Swift?


i105.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-28 03:32:55 PM

FloydA: minoridiot: Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..

Did you mean Jonathan Swift?

[307x511 from http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/floyda/tom_swift_book_cover_01 _zps94cdf640.jpg image 307x511]


I want in on this:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-28 03:39:14 PM

dickfreckle: FloydA: minoridiot: Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..

Did you mean Jonathan Swift?


T Swift.

www.vanityfair.com
 
2013-08-28 03:40:25 PM

dickfreckle: FloydA: minoridiot: Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..

Did you mean Jonathan Swift?

[307x511 from http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/floyda/tom_swift_book_cover_01 _zps94cdf640.jpg image 307x511]

I want in on this:

[220x314 from http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/TomSwiftMotor cycleSmallCropped.jpg/220px-TomSwiftMotorcycleSmallCropped.jpg image 220x314]



Motorcycles are cool and all, but I want one of these:
i105.photobucket.com
And then after a hard day of running down tiny Mongolians, you just want to chill out in front of the tube, Tom's got you covered.


i105.photobucket.com
Just adjust the dials a bit, flip a few switches, and he can tell if there is a television nearby.

Tom Swift: What a guy.
 
2013-08-28 04:01:15 PM

vpb: Having a basic income would place a limit on how much the wealthy could screw the middle class over.  If they had to pay for people thrown into unemployment they might think before pushing policies that create unemployment.


I've been arguing this for years.  Give all adults in the US a basic income cheque every month regardless of wealth, disability, age etc..  etc...  Eliminate all the Government jobs associated with all the various social assistance payments.  No minimum wage.  No unemployment insurance.

One payment, automatic eligibility, no approval process, no requirements other than being over 18 and a citizen.  Any money you make over and above that, you can keep and be taxed on appropriately.   Even rich people can get it and they can't can use it for fancy shoes if they want but they won't be able to look down on poor people who get it.

Libertarians should be happy because you could cut Government in half and remove their control over who gets assistance.
 
2013-08-28 04:03:10 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


If you are going to have only one type of universal social assistance payment, it would just make sense to have the IRS run it as a negative tax approach.
 
2013-08-28 04:44:19 PM
www.slate.com

Caption: People brave light rain as they arrive near at the Lincoln Memorial on Aug. 28, 2013, to commemorate the 50th anniversary on the March on Washington.

Photo by Jewel Samad/AFP/Getty Images

Having just come from there I feel I can honestly say that bravery was not required to be lightly drizzled upon.
 
2013-08-28 04:51:52 PM
And in the Fark Beating a Dead Horse Race, we have Affleck in the clear lead but wait, here comes Miley Cyrus coming in strong and it's Miley in the lead and in the home stretch it's MLK. Cyrus, MLK and Affleck and it's MLK by a nose!
 
2013-08-28 05:06:03 PM
There is only one way to end poverty: abolish capitalism

However, in this world, we still have a problem which is called scarcity.

We have been doing much better at combating it but we are not quite there yet

Until we get some Star Trek like replicators, scarcity will always be a problem.

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms, the replicator could rearrange them into something edible. No more hunger. No more trouble with producing medicine. It would be a technological paradise.

Something like this could be initiated by manned space programs, specifically missions to planets. That would be the motivation needed to get everyone off their ass to solve something like scarcity because it would be in our national interest to send a person to Mars.

Unfortunately we are more concerned with other things instead. Its a shame.

/No, I don't want to play the blame game.
//If you reply please don't play the game
 
2013-08-28 05:09:45 PM

mrshowrules: vpb: Having a basic income would place a limit on how much the wealthy could screw the middle class over.  If they had to pay for people thrown into unemployment they might think before pushing policies that create unemployment.

I've been arguing this for years.  Give all adults in the US a basic income cheque every month regardless of wealth, disability, age etc..  etc...  Eliminate all the Government jobs associated with all the various social assistance payments.  No minimum wage.  No unemployment insurance.

One payment, automatic eligibility, no approval process, no requirements other than being over 18 and a citizen.  Any money you make over and above that, you can keep and be taxed on appropriately.   Even rich people can get it and they can't can use it for fancy shoes if they want but they won't be able to look down on poor people who get it.

Libertarians should be happy because you could cut Government in half and remove their control over who gets assistance.


Its an intriguing idea.
 
2013-08-28 05:12:26 PM
cman:

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms


No critique of your general idea, but sand is actually made from silicon and oxygen (silica is SiO4).
 
2013-08-28 05:14:41 PM

FloydA: cman:

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms


No critique of your general idea, but sand is actually made from silicon and oxygen (silica is SiO4).


cman making an idiot out of himself? Must be one of those days that end with "y"
 
2013-08-28 05:57:44 PM
Kibble and paper jump suits for everyone!
 
2013-08-28 05:58:23 PM

cman: There is only one way to end poverty: abolish capitalism

However, in this world, we still have a problem which is called scarcity.

We have been doing much better at combating it but we are not quite there yet

Until we get some Star Trek like replicators, scarcity will always be a problem.

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms, the replicator could rearrange them into something edible. No more hunger. No more trouble with producing medicine. It would be a technological paradise.

Something like this could be initiated by manned space programs, specifically missions to planets. That would be the motivation needed to get everyone off their ass to solve something like scarcity because it would be in our national interest to send a person to Mars.

Unfortunately we are more concerned with other things instead. Its a shame.

/No, I don't want to play the blame game.
//If you reply please don't play the game


Oh, goddamit. I read this whole thing, went back to check the user, and I'm siding with cman?

I've been here to long...

/totes right
//we can do this
 
2013-08-28 06:00:11 PM

cman: FloydA: cman:

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms


No critique of your general idea, but sand is actually made from silicon and oxygen (silica is SiO4).

cman making an idiot out of himself? Must be one of those days that end with "y"


When he's on his meds and not contemplating suicide, he makes sense.
 
2013-08-28 06:01:45 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


Indeed, one could describe Friedman as a proto-Farklib. One would be dead wrong, like subby, but if we ignore all the stuff about doing away with Social Security and privatizing fire depts, I'm sure we could pick and choose factoids from Friedman's works.... did you know he wanted to legalize marijuana?
 
2013-08-28 06:05:30 PM
I'll also point out that Hayek and Friedman would have said that it's a business owner's choice who he wants to do business with.
 
2013-08-28 06:07:52 PM
The Derp of the hour arrives.
 
2013-08-28 06:08:23 PM
Never would have thought King would have anything in common with Milton Friedman other than being a carbon-based life form.
 
2013-08-28 06:09:59 PM
I would prefer a universal hourly wage subsidy paid by the government to all citizens. Make it so that a person working full time would get a check from the government equal to the poverty line, and they can bargain with employers for additional salary and wages on top of it.

Kind of like an EITC on steroids, but without the weird cutoffs, and based on hours work instead of wages earned.

/I vote that Mississippi be the test case.
 
2013-08-28 06:10:30 PM

cman: Unfortunately we are more concerned with other things instead. Its a shame.


You're right, we should concentrate on no other things until we have replicators and the unlimited free energy needed to run them. I bet no pressing issues will pop up between now and when that's reality.

*eyeroll*
 
2013-08-28 06:16:14 PM
I'm generally liberal and would hypothetically be the kind of person who would support this, but wouldn't a guaranteed basic income be purely inflationary? For example, wouldn't rents all rise in tandem with a GBI?
 
2013-08-28 06:20:15 PM

StopLurkListen: I'm generally liberal and would hypothetically be the kind of person who would support this, but wouldn't a guaranteed basic income be purely inflationary? For example, wouldn't rents all rise in tandem with a GBI?


There is one nation that dealt with something similar: Japan

Google "Lost decade" for more info
 
2013-08-28 06:20:38 PM

cman: sand is made from carbon atoms


gamersmafia.com
 
2013-08-28 06:21:30 PM

FloydA: silica is SiO4


*SiO2
 
2013-08-28 06:23:34 PM

cman: There is only one way to end poverty: abolish capitalism

However, in this world, we still have a problem which is called scarcity.

We have been doing much better at combating it but we are not quite there yet

Until we get some Star Trek like replicators, scarcity will always be a problem.

Imagine giving a food replicator to the poorest of the poor in Africa. All that is required would be raw material, say something like sand. Since sand is made from carbon atoms, the replicator could rearrange them into something edible. No more hunger. No more trouble with producing medicine. It would be a technological paradise.

Something like this could be initiated by manned space programs, specifically missions to planets. That would be the motivation needed to get everyone off their ass to solve something like scarcity because it would be in our national interest to send a person to Mars.

Unfortunately we are more concerned with other things instead. Its a shame.

/No, I don't want to play the blame game.
//If you reply please don't play the game


We have already seen what would happen when scarcity ends. You need to look no further than the MPAA, the RIAA, and even the DRM-laden e-Book industry to see what happens when you have a valuable commodity that can be reproduced indefinitely. The old-world entities who profited from the scarcity desperately cling to the old model. Not sure how long they'll be able to hang on, but I've been able to copy music for at least 20 years and they're still selling it for outrageous prices on the iTunes store.
 
2013-08-28 06:32:51 PM

cman: StopLurkListen: I'm generally liberal and would hypothetically be the kind of person who would support this, but wouldn't a guaranteed basic income be purely inflationary? For example, wouldn't rents all rise in tandem with a GBI?

There is one nation that dealt with something similar: Japan

Google "Lost decade" for more info


Sorry, disregard this

I meant Argentina

Japanese and Argentines look so much alike that I can't really tell the difference betwixt the two

/Now posted the right thread this time
 
2013-08-28 06:35:20 PM
Never knew Milton Friedman was for such an idea. I saw a video he made where he propagated his pre-Tea Party agenda, and I would have thought the last thing he would have wanted was to see the government giving out free money to anybody.

/guess even a broken clock is right twice a day
 
2013-08-28 06:36:03 PM

CokeBear: I've been able to copy music for at least 20 years and they're still selling it for outrageous prices on the iTunes store.


$10/album is an "outrageous price"?
 
2013-08-28 06:36:51 PM

thurstonxhowell: CokeBear: I've been able to copy music for at least 20 years and they're still selling it for outrageous prices on the iTunes store.

$10/album is an "outrageous price"?


Cant please everyone
 
2013-08-28 06:39:16 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
take care of level one and the world is a better place.
/libertarian
 
2013-08-28 06:42:38 PM

StopLurkListen: I'm generally liberal and would hypothetically be the kind of person who would support this, but wouldn't a guaranteed basic income be purely inflationary? For example, wouldn't rents all rise in tandem with a GBI?


Not necessarily.  There are people much smarter than me who could probably figure out the exact answer, but for the moment I would point to the most current analog which is the minimum wage.  Minimum wage hikes in the US have never correlated to inflation.
 
2013-08-28 06:51:47 PM

mrshowrules: vpb: Having a basic income would place a limit on how much the wealthy could screw the middle class over.  If they had to pay for people thrown into unemployment they might think before pushing policies that create unemployment.

I've been arguing this for years.  Give all adults in the US a basic income cheque every month regardless of wealth, disability, age etc..  etc...  Eliminate all the Government jobs associated with all the various social assistance payments.  No minimum wage.  No unemployment insurance.

One payment, automatic eligibility, no approval process, no requirements other than being over 18 and a citizen.  Any money you make over and above that, you can keep and be taxed on appropriately.   Even rich people can get it and they can't can use it for fancy shoes if they want but they won't be able to look down on poor people who get it.

Libertarians should be happy because you could cut Government in half and remove their control over who gets assistance.


Where does the money come from?
 
2013-08-28 06:53:01 PM

YodaTuna: StopLurkListen: I'm generally liberal and would hypothetically be the kind of person who would support this, but wouldn't a guaranteed basic income be purely inflationary? For example, wouldn't rents all rise in tandem with a GBI?

Not necessarily.  There are people much smarter than me who could probably figure out the exact answer, but for the moment I would point to the most current analog which is the minimum wage.  Minimum wage hikes in the US have never correlated to inflation.


But they didn't cause inflation either. I don't know if giving everyone a check for the same amount every month would cause a lot of inflation, but that's the concern.
 
2013-08-28 06:53:37 PM

thurstonxhowell: CokeBear: I've been able to copy music for at least 20 years and they're still selling it for outrageous prices on the iTunes store.

$10/album is an "outrageous price"?


for mp3's? hell yes
 
2013-08-28 06:53:47 PM
I'm in favor of this, but mainly because it would be a farking death blow to capitalism. If complete poverty and the institutional punishment that goes along with it is no longer a threat, watch one hundred million bullshiat jobs disappear overnight.
 
2013-08-28 06:54:16 PM

vpb: I wonder if the Republicans who are outraged that some people get refunds without paying taxes would have their heads explode if they knew that Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax.


Three trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income
 
2013-08-28 06:55:17 PM

cman: However, in this world, we still have a problem which is called scarcity.

We have been doing much better at combating it but we are not quite there yet


Scarcity of what? We grow enough food today to feed everyone on earth, perhaps even make them all fat. We could easily clothe everyone, and house them. We are churning out metric buttloads of consumer goods (many of them with designed obsolescence), most of them going to the same affluent minority. If we're not already there, then we are at the cusp of being able to satisfy everyone's material needs. The only really scarce thing is energy, but there's people working on that too.

What we're living in is false scarcity; a system set up to encourage and manipulate the global middle class to consumer ever greater amounts of frivolous, luxury goods produced for them by the global underclass. We rich people (globally speaking) buy stuff not because we really need it, but because we are trained to want it, and because social status in our society is linked to income, wealth and consumption. The same technology that creates this amazing abundance also throws people out of work, renders them useless to the capitalist system and excludes them from the socially validating lifestyle of work and consumption.

What capitalism requires to function as a system is for people to consume more and more every single year (growth), while at the same time keeping costs down, which means trying to pay people as little as possible and thereby depriving them of the money they need to buy the goods to fuel the growth. Socially and politically (and probably ecologically) it's a recipe for disaster. I don't know what a post-scarcity, post-capitalist system is going to look like, the technology is there, we just have to figure out how to use it properly.
 
2013-08-28 06:59:12 PM

nmrsnr: [568x345 from http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/08/28/marti n_luther_king_guaranteed_basic_income/178264946.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-la rge.jpg image 568x345]

Caption: People brave light rain as they arrive near at the Lincoln Memorial on Aug. 28, 2013, to commemorate the 50th anniversary on the March on Washington.

Photo by Jewel Samad/AFP/Getty Images

Having just come from there I feel I can honestly say that bravery was not required to be lightly drizzled upon.


Could be worse.  The same picture on Fox is captioned as "Zealot followers of extremist black religious leader storm the National Mall demanding special treatment."
 
2013-08-28 07:01:03 PM

minoridiot: Somaticasual: Unfortunately missing from the list : thomas swift..

Did you mean Jonathan Swift?


He meant Tom Swift, Fano said rotskily
 
2013-08-28 07:01:25 PM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: Where does the money come from?


Same place all the 'quantitative easing' money comes from...the printing presses.

Seriously, deficits don't matter.
 
2013-08-28 07:04:53 PM
"In effect, Trotsky presented forced labor as an inseparable feature of socialism. "One may say that man is rather a lazy creature," he said. "As a general rule, man strives to avoid work.... The only way to attract the labor power necessary for economic tasks is to introduce compulsory labor service."120 Lest some Soviet citizens delude themselves that compulsory labor was only a transitional measure, meant for the "duration" of the crisis, Trotsky put them on notice this was not so. In March 1920, at the Ninth Party Congress, convened after the Whites had been for all practical purposes defeated and the Civil War was virtually over, Trotsky minced no words:
We are making the first attempt in world history to organize labor in the interests of that laboring majority. But this, of course, does not mean liquidating the element of compulsion. The element of compulsion does not disappear from historic accounts. No, compulsion plays and will play an important role for a significant period of history. "

http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Revolution-Richard-Pipes/dp/0679736603 /r ef=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377730809&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Russian+R evolution+richard

as has been proven by every socialist state that has ever existed, your choices are capitalism and nominal freedom combined with manageable inequality along with an ever increasing standard of living, or socialism combined with slavery, stagnation,  and a reasonable quality of life only for the elites. .
 
2013-08-28 07:04:57 PM

jigger: FloydA: silica is SiO4

*SiO2


DOH!  Yes, of course. SiO2.  I was thinking of a single tetrahedron.

Senior moment.
 
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