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(BBC)   How are things going in those other countries we liberated again?   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 73
    More: Obvious, Baghdad, Sadr, car bombs  
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7568 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Aug 2013 at 12:08 PM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-28 11:40:11 AM
Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-
South Korea: B+
former East Germany: B+
former USSR: anywhere from A- (Estonia) to F (Belarus)
Poland: B
Czech Republic / Slovakia: B
Romania: C
Bulgaria: wait, where?
Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+
 
2013-08-28 12:00:08 PM
Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.
 
2013-08-28 12:01:39 PM

Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-


You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
www.mishalov.com
 
2013-08-28 12:06:17 PM
Well, the Navajo, Apache and Piman indians aren't doing too well. They are tenacious, however. The Hopi look like they are holding their own, but when water is withheld by the Government, I am looking at that situation as a slow siege.
 
2013-08-28 12:11:55 PM
More importantly, all of our latest excursions into them has really helped change their opinion of us. Yeah, it's for the worst, but change is good.
 
2013-08-28 12:13:09 PM

Nadie_AZ: Well, the Navajo, Apache and Piman indians aren't doing too well. They are tenacious, however. The Hopi look like they are holding their own, but when water is withheld by the Government, I am looking at that situation as a slow siege.


I am betting on the Blackfeet. Always bet on Blackfeet.
 
2013-08-28 12:14:13 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-

You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
[583x300 from http://www.mishalov.com/images/22gialongstreet.gif image 583x300]


i would have given Vietnam a better grade.  it just took a really long time.

from the state department report on vietnam:

U.S. relations with Vietnam have become increasingly cooperative and broad-based in the years since political normalization. The United States and Vietnam hold an annual dialogue on human rights, which resumed in 2006 after a 2-year hiatus. The economic relationship between the United States and Vietnam is flourishing...

see  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/4130.htm
 
2013-08-28 12:14:49 PM

Gulper Eel: Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-
South Korea: B+
former East Germany: B+
former USSR: anywhere from A- (Estonia) to F (Belarus)
Poland: B
Czech Republic / Slovakia: B
Romania: C
Bulgaria: wait, where?
Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


You left out South Korea: A and North Korea: F
 
2013-08-28 12:16:08 PM

Gulper Eel: Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


In what alternate universe did America liberate England?
 
2013-08-28 12:18:02 PM

Ecaps: Gulper Eel: Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+

In what alternate universe did America liberate England?


Liberated them from Americans....duh!
 
2013-08-28 12:21:36 PM

pute kisses like a man: Marcus Aurelius: Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-

You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
[583x300 from http://www.mishalov.com/images/22gialongstreet.gif image 583x300]

i would have given Vietnam a better grade.  it just took a really long time.

from the state department report on vietnam:

U.S. relations with Vietnam have become increasingly cooperative and broad-based in the years since political normalization. The United States and Vietnam hold an annual dialogue on human rights, which resumed in 2006 after a 2-year hiatus. The economic relationship between the United States and Vietnam is flourishing...

see  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/4130.htm


Surely you would not make the claim that Vietnam's enormous increases in economic liberalization, social freedom, and international friendship are in some way a result of the United States having spent a decade indiscriminately bombing it.
 
2013-08-28 12:22:15 PM
Those aren't car bombs, they're street pinatas...
 
2013-08-28 12:23:44 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-

You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
[583x300 from http://www.mishalov.com/images/22gialongstreet.gif image 583x300]


I'd give it a D+.

Their Tets were HUGE.
 
2013-08-28 12:23:54 PM
Sounds like a typical weekend in Chicago or Detroit.
 
2013-08-28 12:25:03 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.


No, he didn't. Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003. Maliki is allowing this level of violence because he refuses to negotiate with the western tribes the way we did in 2006-2011, but the country's still FAR more prosperous than it was under Saddam. The violence is a tradeoff for not having a Gestapo-like secret police drag you away and murder you for the slightest subversive comment.
 
2013-08-28 12:27:43 PM

pkjun: pute kisses like a man: Marcus Aurelius: Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-

You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
[583x300 from http://www.mishalov.com/images/22gialongstreet.gif image 583x300]

i would have given Vietnam a better grade.  it just took a really long time.

from the state department report on vietnam:

U.S. relations with Vietnam have become increasingly cooperative and broad-based in the years since political normalization. The United States and Vietnam hold an annual dialogue on human rights, which resumed in 2006 after a 2-year hiatus. The economic relationship between the United States and Vietnam is flourishing...

see  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/4130.htm

Surely you would not make the claim that Vietnam's enormous increases in economic liberalization, social freedom, and international friendship are in some way a result of the United States having spent a decade indiscriminately bombing it.


Winning the Cold War had a lot to do with it. If there were no Western economic model, Vietnam wouldn't have liberalized its economy. No U.S. Navy, no Asian tigers, because Maoist China would have annexed them (in the case of Taiwan) or exported Maoism to them.
 
2013-08-28 12:28:04 PM
image.guardian.co.uk
 
2013-08-28 12:30:32 PM
In other news, former Spanish colony and Mexican state California is doing pretty well. They continue to liberate the water from other regions, however. Great place to grow weed, I hear, but everything is expensive.

Arizona and New Mexico are polar opposites, with one self loathing and the other drying up. Texas is standing there saying 'we liberated ourselves to own slaves and now we can't even do that? WTF?'. Nevada and Colorado wish Utah was somewhere else and Utah wishes it were still under the control of Generalisimo Brigham Young.
 
2013-08-28 12:31:08 PM
Vietnam is actually doing really well.  We probably actually achieved our goal there, blocking China from taking over the country.
Considering what they've done to most other highly religious non-chinese countries that they've taken over, Vietnam is a paradise.
 
2013-08-28 12:32:48 PM

Gulper Eel: Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-
South Korea: B+
former East Germany: B+
former USSR: anywhere from A- (Estonia) to F (Belarus)
Poland: B
Czech Republic / Slovakia: B
Romania: C
Bulgaria: wait, where?
Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


What? No Grenada?
 
2013-08-28 12:47:48 PM
Syriasly?
 
jvl
2013-08-28 12:58:53 PM
You mean leaving a country in haste rather than sticking around in a less intrusive role might lead to instability? Huh, that sounds like a stupid thing to do. Not as stupid as invading, but stupid.
 
2013-08-28 01:00:15 PM

Nadie_AZ: Utah wishes it were still under the control of Generalisimo Brigham Young.


I lived in UT for a couple of years.  They are still under his control.
 
2013-08-28 01:01:34 PM
We can't even liberate our own country, especially when some people in it are doing their damndest to make women and gay people second-class citizens.
 
2013-08-28 01:02:49 PM

Gulper Eel: Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-
South Korea: B+
former East Germany: B+
former USSR: anywhere from A- (Estonia) to F (Belarus)
Poland: B
Czech Republic / Slovakia: B
Romania: C
Bulgaria: wait, where?
Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


Funny how the further back in time you go, the better the rating (generally speaking).  Also seems to vary by region, too.
 
2013-08-28 01:02:53 PM

Gulper Eel: Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-
South Korea: B+
former East Germany: B+
former USSR: anywhere from A- (Estonia) to F (Belarus)
Poland: B
Czech Republic / Slovakia: B
Romania: C
Bulgaria: wait, where?
Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


You might as well include the entire world in the last too:
Earth C-
 
2013-08-28 01:06:31 PM
I thought that the Country that governs least governs best?
 
2013-08-28 01:07:58 PM
On the bright side, it's not American/UN soldiers being blown up anymore (in Iraq, at least).
 
2013-08-28 01:08:11 PM

mbillips: Marcus Aurelius: Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.

No, he didn't. Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003. Maliki is allowing this level of violence because he refuses to negotiate with the western tribes the way we did in 2006-2011, but the country's still FAR more prosperous than it was under Saddam. The violence is a tradeoff for not having a Gestapo-like secret police drag you away and murder you for the slightest subversive comment.


You do realize that there was an international economic embargo against Iraq the entire period between the two gulf wars?  Of course, that surely had nothing to do with the state of Iraq's economy under Saddam.

-Not that Saddam was a good guy, but there are plenty of bad guys out there we choose to ignore. But most of those guys aren't sitting on a butt load of oil.
 
2013-08-28 01:11:48 PM

pute kisses like a man: Marcus Aurelius: Gulper Eel: Vietnam: C-

You must be grading these efforts on a wicked curve.
[583x300 from http://www.mishalov.com/images/22gialongstreet.gif image 583x300]

i would have given Vietnam a better grade.  it just took a really long time.

from the state department report on vietnam:

U.S. relations with Vietnam have become increasingly cooperative and broad-based in the years since political normalization. The United States and Vietnam hold an annual dialogue on human rights, which resumed in 2006 after a 2-year hiatus. The economic relationship between the United States and Vietnam is flourishing...

see  http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/4130.htm


Imagine then how good they would have been back in 1968 if we hadn't invaded their country and inserted ourselves into their unwinnable civil war!
 
2013-08-28 01:12:28 PM
The former Confederacy hasn't been too bad. A lot of resentment, but they have taken to adopting Friday night High School football as a way of coping. Seeing young men smash into each other at full speed right before getting hammered is a great way of distracting oneself. The US hasn't done half bad with this one, all things considered.

What? Black people? Who? Oh the players? Yeah, they aren't half bad, either.
 
2013-08-28 01:14:35 PM

mbillips: Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003


Are you talking about the 1980's, when we urged Saddam to annihilate most of the young men in the country by fighting Iran, or the 1990's Saddam that was under heavy economic sanctions thanks to our diplomatic disaster vis-a-vis Kuwait?
 
2013-08-28 01:16:32 PM

steffonic: mbillips: Marcus Aurelius: Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.

No, he didn't. Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003. Maliki is allowing this level of violence because he refuses to negotiate with the western tribes the way we did in 2006-2011, but the country's still FAR more prosperous than it was under Saddam. The violence is a tradeoff for not having a Gestapo-like secret police drag you away and murder you for the slightest subversive comment.

You do realize that there was an international economic embargo against Iraq the entire period between the two gulf wars?  Of course, that surely had nothing to do with the state of Iraq's economy under Saddam.

-Not that Saddam was a good guy, but there are plenty of bad guys out there we choose to ignore. But most of those guys aren't sitting on a butt load of oil.


The only reason there were economic sanctions was because Saddam prioritized rebuilding his military over everything else. If he'd abided by the UN resolutions, there would have been no sanctions. I lived in Iraq for a year in 2006-07 and worked closely with Iraqis. Saddam was an absolute disaster in every way -- a sadistic, corrupt, hyper-violent goon with delusions of empire who oppressed the majority of his country's population. That's not why we took him out, but saying he was an efficient dictator is a misstatement. As bad as things are now, they're still not as bad as they were from '91 to '03, unless you were a Baath party member back then.
 
2013-08-28 01:26:15 PM
It would be helpfull if muslims could stop killing each other for a week or 2.
 
2013-08-28 01:26:32 PM

xanadian: Funny how the further back in time you go, the better the rating (generally speaking)


Makes sense; it means that the more time they have to rebuild, the better they do. Western Europe was in economic turmoil for the first decade or so after the war, especially the non-Marshall Plan places.
 
2013-08-28 01:29:03 PM

mbillips: steffonic: mbillips: Marcus Aurelius: Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.

No, he didn't. Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003. Maliki is allowing this level of violence because he refuses to negotiate with the western tribes the way we did in 2006-2011, but the country's still FAR more prosperous than it was under Saddam. The violence is a tradeoff for not having a Gestapo-like secret police drag you away and murder you for the slightest subversive comment.

You do realize that there was an international economic embargo against Iraq the entire period between the two gulf wars?  Of course, that surely had nothing to do with the state of Iraq's economy under Saddam.

-Not that Saddam was a good guy, but there are plenty of bad guys out there we choose to ignore. But most of those guys aren't sitting on a butt load of oil.

The only reason there were economic sanctions was because Saddam prioritized rebuilding his military over everything else. If he'd abided by the UN resolutions, there would have been no sanctions. I lived in Iraq for a year in 2006-07 and worked closely with Iraqis. Saddam was an absolute disaster in every way -- a sadistic, corrupt, hyper-violent goon with delusions of empire who oppressed the majority of his country's population. That's not why we took him out, but saying he was an efficient dictator is a misstatement. As bad as things are now, they're still not as bad as they were from '91 to '03, unless you were a Baath party member back then.


No, he certainly wasn't an efficient dictator.  A pretty poor one really.

But comparing the mess we left with the mess that was there before is like taking a sledge hammer to a previously totaled car, smashing every inch of it and then putting a new rear bumper on it and declaring 'Mission Accomplished!'.
 
2013-08-28 01:33:15 PM

jaybeezey: It would be helpfull if muslims could stop killing each other for a week or 2.


Yeah, I say the same thing about Americans.
 
2013-08-28 01:39:42 PM
Gulper Eel:

Do broaden your horizons, subby.

Iraq: Incomplete
Afghanistan: D
Libya: D+
Somalia: Incomplete
Kuwait: C
Zimbabwe: F
Vietnam: C-



I'm confused.  Why exactly would we take any credit for Vietnam whether negative or positive?   The regime we supported was The Republic of Vietnam (or South Vietnam), which ceased to exist in April 1975.

The current Vietnam is the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.  If anything, the only countries that should take credit for Vietnam is China and the USSR (or rather the guys who used to run the USSR).
 
2013-08-28 01:41:06 PM

steffonic: mbillips: steffonic: mbillips: Marcus Aurelius: Saddam Hussein sure knew how to make the trains run on time.  I'm still puzzled why we dumped that guy in exchange for complete anarchy.

No, he didn't. Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003. Maliki is allowing this level of violence because he refuses to negotiate with the western tribes the way we did in 2006-2011, but the country's still FAR more prosperous than it was under Saddam. The violence is a tradeoff for not having a Gestapo-like secret police drag you away and murder you for the slightest subversive comment.

You do realize that there was an international economic embargo against Iraq the entire period between the two gulf wars?  Of course, that surely had nothing to do with the state of Iraq's economy under Saddam.

-Not that Saddam was a good guy, but there are plenty of bad guys out there we choose to ignore. But most of those guys aren't sitting on a butt load of oil.

The only reason there were economic sanctions was because Saddam prioritized rebuilding his military over everything else. If he'd abided by the UN resolutions, there would have been no sanctions. I lived in Iraq for a year in 2006-07 and worked closely with Iraqis. Saddam was an absolute disaster in every way -- a sadistic, corrupt, hyper-violent goon with delusions of empire who oppressed the majority of his country's population. That's not why we took him out, but saying he was an efficient dictator is a misstatement. As bad as things are now, they're still not as bad as they were from '91 to '03, unless you were a Baath party member back then.

No, he certainly wasn't an efficient dictator.  A pretty poor one really.

But comparing the mess we left with the mess that was there before is like taking a sledge hammer to a previously totaled car, smashing every inch of it and then putting a new rear bumper on it and declaring 'Mission Accomplished!'.


Except that's not true. Iraq has had an economic boom since 2003. There's a lot MORE infrastructure there now than before. Despite all the stuff we built that the bad guys destroyed, or that the Iraqis broke from ignorance or incompetence, the country has a far more robust economy now. The Iraqis have done a lot more than put a new bumper on the car; they've rebuilt the engine and got it running again.

The war did the U.S. no good at all, but it's been a net positive for the majority of Iraqis. The current violence is part of the bargaining between the government and the Sunni minority over oil revenues. If the Sunnis get the deal they want, they'll stomp on the Takfiris and AQ terrorists, just like they did in 2007.
 
2013-08-28 01:43:31 PM

Marcus Aurelius: mbillips: Saddam wrecked the Iraqi economy and education system. Iraq's GDP is five times higher today than it was in 2003

Are you talking about the 1980's, when we urged Saddam to annihilate most of the young men in the country by fighting Iran, or the 1990's Saddam that was under heavy economic sanctions thanks to our diplomatic disaster vis-a-vis Kuwait?


The Iran war was 100 percent Saddam's idea (because he thought post-revolutionary Iran was weaker than it was); we just didn't get in his way. We assumed it would be a cakewalk, too. He got a similarly bright idea in 1990, and unfortunately, Bush's people didn't state clearly enough that that was gonna be a problem.
 
2013-08-28 01:49:43 PM
That's it. I'm writing to my congressperson to suggest that we suspect veterans' benefits. If those losers can't even liberate a country properly and keep it liberated they expect me to coddle them and pretend they're heroes for the rest of their lives? Screw that. Time to get a real job, Lynndie England.
 
2013-08-28 01:51:53 PM
mbillips:   Except that's not true. Iraq has had an economic boom since 2003. There's a lot MORE infrastructure there now than before. Despite all the stuff we built that the bad guys destroyed, or that the Iraqis broke from ignorance or incompetence, the country has a far more robust economy now. The Iraqis have done a lot more than put a new bumper on the car; they've rebuilt the engine and got it running again.


I love how everyone on Fark and in the media hated Bush and the Iraqi war so much (and I'm no fan of Dubya either) that everyone predicted doom and gloom for Iraq once we left.    And frankly, I thought it would be fall of Saigon again as well.

But here we are, and frankly no one talks about Iraq.   I haven't really seen any news about them at all.  I think they've had some sectarian violence and some bombings (only negative news sells I guess), but even a buddy of mine who speculated heavily on the Iraqi stock market did well in the last couple of years.  A bit too risky for my blood so I passed on it.

To be fair, the final picture on Iraq is still in the works...
 
2013-08-28 01:51:57 PM
Mission Accomplished: Regional instability, huge jump in arms sales, sectarian violence, and over a decade of free-flowing profits for the military industrial complex.  For the people who truly run our country this has been a monumental success.
 
2013-08-28 01:52:57 PM
So we ate the yellow cake and won the War on Terror, right?
 
2013-08-28 01:53:35 PM

Gulper Eel: Do broaden your horizons, subby.


Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England: A+


Sweden? Ummm...I must of been sick that day at history class. When was this?
 
2013-08-28 01:57:40 PM
KillerAttackParrot:

Germany, Japan, Italy, France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway,  Sweden, England: A+

Sweden? Ummm...I must of been sick that day at history class. When was this?


Forget it.  He's rolling.
 
2013-08-28 01:57:49 PM
24.media.tumblr.com

And yet we keep sticking our wang in the hornet's nest.
 
2013-08-28 02:09:33 PM

The Irresponsible Captain: [330x298 from http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m876oajosD1qi9t6eo1_500.jpg image 330x298]

And yet we keep sticking our wang in the hornet's nest.


You'd think we'd be good at it.
 
2013-08-28 02:15:02 PM
Not to use facts to distract everyone from a fancy graphic, but the years between the war of 1812 and the war of texas independence (1816-1835), and the years between the mexican american war and the spanish american war (1849-1860) alone total 22 years.

There were about 70 years of peacetime before 1900, nevermind the 20th century.

Of course I'm sure whoever made the graph has a very, let's say liberal, definition of wartime;  Or a very, let's say conservative, definition of peacetime.
 
2013-08-28 02:18:22 PM
Right because nobody died violently when Saddam was in charge. Nope, everyone was happy. Certainly no cripplingly maiming torture or anything like that.

It's hardly the US' fault that those sand monkeys insist on blowing each other up.
 
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