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(Guardian)   Bitcoin representatives patiently explain to the US government that math is hard   (theguardian.com) divider line 33
    More: Followup, digital currency, tax collectors  
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2861 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Aug 2013 at 8:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-08-27 09:04:49 AM  
3 votes:

Crotchrocket Slim: /not ever touching Bitcoins as an investment, that's stupid if it's also currency especially with currency whose value is as historically volatile as Bitcoins


That's the thing. It has some legitimate utility as an alternative to online payment systems like Paypal, but most of the people treating it like an investment have no idea what they're doing. And if they do know what they're doing, they probably deserve a visit from the SEC.
2013-08-27 08:42:37 AM  
3 votes:
Bitcoin is the future. My fellow Herbalife distributors are all heavily invested and my instructors at Trump University had nothing but good things to say about it.
2013-08-27 08:33:42 AM  
3 votes:
Pretty sure everyone involved already understands how Ponzi schemes work.
2013-08-27 10:38:09 AM  
2 votes:

d23: Why would I make another comment?  Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am... heh.

A great way to tell if something is important is to see who it's pissing off.


But it's not important in the way you think it is. It's actually quite useless. The Feds are interested because of potential uses for money laundering (that's why the exchanges have been put on ice) and the amount of btc that certain hoarders investors have accumulated.

BTC is useless because anybody who's "getting rich" off of it is just cashing out to USD or Euros, or was until the exchanges start serving the US again. The only people who are sticking with it are "true believers" who dump their wife's 401K or their life savings, only to get scammed out of 80% of it. Oh, and the guys at BFL who have scammed sold many ASICs and other parts to suckers customers (99% of whom are still waiting.)

Go ahead and dump your wife's 401K into it. You'll get scammed out of it and get back 20%. up, uP, UP!
2013-08-27 10:18:09 AM  
2 votes:
The US government is the largest employer of mathematicians in the world. They don't need to be told math is hard. I'm not saying everyone there can add, but if there's some math that needs to be understood, they can usually do it. And if they can't, they just haul someone in from Berkeley or Princeton for a few days to work on it.
Some farking amateur came up with a protocol, and a bunch of dorks want to pretend that they're the only ones who understand it, and everyone is against them for the usual reasons, that they're so smart and no one understands them. The truth of the matter is much simpler: the dorks have made a market, and someone is going to try to rook the market. Maybe someone has already done it. It's not even about the math, it's about the market.
2013-08-27 09:58:43 AM  
2 votes:
Good farking luck explaining that to Congress. As will be evident in this thread, even people who think they're tech savy have no farking clue how it works, so yeah good luck with Congress.
2013-08-27 08:47:03 AM  
2 votes:
Throw them in jail for tax evasion
2013-08-27 08:42:05 AM  
2 votes:
The whole idea of a bunch of Bitcoin guys sitting down and explaining economics to the government is just absolutely hilarious to me.
2013-08-27 08:39:37 AM  
2 votes:
"Murck said the agenda of the Washington meeting was to "help regulators, policymakers and law enforcement officials better understand the Bitcoin protocol and distributed finance..."

... by transferring large amounts of untraceable cash to them ahead of their policy meeting.
2013-08-27 04:25:29 PM  
1 votes:
Murck said he hoped the Federal meetings would clear up misunderstandings. "We view this as the beginning of a conversation about the appropriate role of government and law enforcement in this emerging space. Our hope is that this is the beginning of an open and transparent dialog between good-faith stakeholders to find common ground and develop public-private partnerships," he said.

You poor, poor, deluded fool.
2013-08-27 04:21:04 PM  
1 votes:

Crotchrocket Slim: There is a viable way for drug dealers to do business- just deal in cold hard cash. Why anyone would even consider buying drugs online- even if we ignore that the government excels at monitoring online communication- when you could be buying product you have tested and confirmed is good from a local buyer is beyond me.


Thats the same argument many people have made against amazon, ebay and other online stores. In the end convenience is king.
2013-08-27 12:53:41 PM  
1 votes:
I admit that I don't really know much about the subject, but based on what little I know it seems to me that bitcoins are to currency as Esperanto is to language.
2013-08-27 12:39:12 PM  
1 votes:

manbart: trotsky: Exactly, and most are finding this out the hard way as the SEC and the Euro equivalent are taking notice of the amount of transactions and the illegal aspects, such as Silk Road. This was, frankly, bound to occur eventually and only a fool or a true believer would think otherwise. For a P-to-p currency to really work, it would have to build itself from the ground up with regulations and laws in mind. This would go a long way towards avoiding any entanglements.

Bitcoin's primary problem is that it was based off drugs and money laundering right off; not a auspicious start for any currency hoping to acquire a foothold as alternative form of payment and exchange. I said it above and I'll repeat myself: the biggest problem with bitcoin is it's user base.

I think this misses the point. BitCoin was created anonymously, and the creator is apparently no longer involved in the project. It always seemed more like an experimental concept more than an actual attempt to create a business. As an experiment in cyberspace, I would say it has been a resounding success.

BitCoin may have been a driving force in things like the Silk Road, but drugs sell themselves and the internet offers anonymity to some extent. Because of these factors, I think online drug sales are here to stay regardless of the method of currency transfer. Once BitCoins cannot be exchanged for real currency, I don't think drug dealers will have any interest in accepting them. They will find a new way to transfer funds, there is enough money at stake in the drug trade for them to figure this out.


There is a viable way for drug dealers to do business- just deal in cold hard cash. Why anyone would even consider buying drugs online- even if we ignore that the government excels at monitoring online communication- when you could be buying product you have tested and confirmed is good from a local buyer is beyond me.
2013-08-27 12:08:06 PM  
1 votes:
The only thing I have to say on BTC: The system can't scale to an economy of any significant size, which makes it worthless for anything EXCEPT supporting a small, fringe grey or black market economy.
2013-08-27 11:43:52 AM  
1 votes:

trotsky: Exactly, and most are finding this out the hard way as the SEC and the Euro equivalent are taking notice of the amount of transactions and the illegal aspects, such as Silk Road. This was, frankly, bound to occur eventually and only a fool or a true believer would think otherwise. For a P-to-p currency to really work, it would have to build itself from the ground up with regulations and laws in mind. This would go a long way towards avoiding any entanglements.

Bitcoin's primary problem is that it was based off drugs and money laundering right off; not a auspicious start for any currency hoping to acquire a foothold as alternative form of payment and exchange. I said it above and I'll repeat myself: the biggest problem with bitcoin is it's user base.


I think this misses the point. BitCoin was created anonymously, and the creator is apparently no longer involved in the project. It always seemed more like an experimental concept more than an actual attempt to create a business. As an experiment in cyberspace, I would say it has been a resounding success.

BitCoin may have been a driving force in things like the Silk Road, but drugs sell themselves and the internet offers anonymity to some extent. Because of these factors, I think online drug sales are here to stay regardless of the method of currency transfer. Once BitCoins cannot be exchanged for real currency, I don't think drug dealers will have any interest in accepting them. They will find a new way to transfer funds, there is enough money at stake in the drug trade for them to figure this out.
2013-08-27 11:43:43 AM  
1 votes:

Muta: Wendy's Chili: most of the people treating it like an investment have no idea what they're doing.

I transferred my 401K to bitcoins.  Who'll be laughing in the post-apocalyptic society?


Me. I transferred all my savings to bottle caps.
2013-08-27 11:27:26 AM  
1 votes:

Crotchrocket Slim: manbart: It seems mostly like a curiosity. Anyone  who invests substantial sums of money into this is probably not the savviest investor. That being said, who cares what people do with their disposable income? If you think BitCoins are stupid, no on is forcing you to get involved. I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the currency.

Making fun of people we think are unsavy investors- especially investors as insufferable as BTC supporters tend to be- is like the entire purpose of Fark. I don't care or get upset when a fool and his money is parted; I actually experience a little schadenfreude. That said these discussions serve to further document issues with the concept of Bitcoins and the occasionally* lackluster way they've been deployed, which admittedly enables rationalized smugness in me. These threads are smug-investments for all involved, really.

It is my personal opinion that the currency will eventually collapse. It only has worth insofar as it can be exchanged for real currency. Once the powers that be strangle that exchange, the currency will go bust.

I agree but not for the reasons you think. People seem to be getting involved with BTC as they think it's a secure way to do illegal business or tax-free business and neither is true or feasible. Once investors realize that even if we establish Bitcoins as a viable long-term digital currency, they are still subject to the laws of the land and this will kill a lot of interest in Bitcoins. Shame- it's a victim of its own marketing in that case.

*usually


Exactly, and most are finding this out the hard way as the SEC and the Euro equivalent are taking notice of the amount of transactions and the illegal aspects, such as Silk Road. This was, frankly, bound to occur eventually and only a fool or a true believer would think otherwise. For a P-to-p currency to really work, it would have to build itself from the ground up with regulations and laws in mind. This would go a long way towards avoiding any entanglements.

Bitcoin's primary problem is that it was based off drugs and money laundering right off; not a auspicious start for any currency hoping to acquire a foothold as alternative form of payment and exchange. I said it above and I'll repeat myself: the biggest problem with bitcoin is it's user base.
2013-08-27 11:12:22 AM  
1 votes:

manbart: It seems mostly like a curiosity. Anyone  who invests substantial sums of money into this is probably not the savviest investor. That being said, who cares what people do with their disposable income? If you think BitCoins are stupid, no on is forcing you to get involved. I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the currency.


Making fun of people we think are unsavy investors- especially investors as insufferable as BTC supporters tend to be- is like the entire purpose of Fark. I don't care or get upset when a fool and his money is parted; I actually experience a little schadenfreude. That said these discussions serve to further document issues with the concept of Bitcoins and the occasionally* lackluster way they've been deployed, which admittedly enables rationalized smugness in me. These threads are smug-investments for all involved, really.

It is my personal opinion that the currency will eventually collapse. It only has worth insofar as it can be exchanged for real currency. Once the powers that be strangle that exchange, the currency will go bust.

I agree but not for the reasons you think. People seem to be getting involved with BTC as they think it's a secure way to do illegal business or tax-free business and neither is true or feasible. Once investors realize that even if we establish Bitcoins as a viable long-term digital currency, they are still subject to the laws of the land and this will kill a lot of interest in Bitcoins. Shame- it's a victim of its own marketing in that case.

*usually
2013-08-27 10:56:47 AM  
1 votes:

trotsky: Hey, d23, do you go to a restaurant and tip the server in bitcoins? Because that's a very popular way of being a douchbag on the forums. Imagine this: you're 21 year old women working at a Applebees as you're going to school. Not only does the creepy guy in the fedora clumsily hit on you but he leaves you a piece of paper with a long string of numbers and letters on it, along with instructions on how to set up a wallet.dat on your school laptop. You do so, why not, but this was a pretty shiatty tip. Even shiattier when you find out the guy only tipped you $0.78 in bitcoins.


Now that is some funny sh*t right there.

/Fedora LOL
2013-08-27 10:54:00 AM  
1 votes:

Crotchrocket Slim: d23: Why would I make another comment?  Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am... heh.

A great way to tell if something is important is to see who it's pissing off.

Well when you leave gems like this static filled post:

d23: warning: don't expect intelligent discussion on this topic on Fark.

Some subjects, yeah, but this is way too complex and there are too many assholes that just want to scream "PONZI!?!?!11" and go away.

... expect not to have an intelligent discussion. If all you've presented is flimsily rationalized pessimism and should someone engage you on what issues they might have with Bitcoins and all you do is get huffy or offer even more flimsy rationalizations (as what I've seen from BTC supporters on Fark about this) why the hell talk to you?

You want intelligent discussion, do your part and bring some intelligent discussion into here. If the whole world is full of crazy people to you, maybe it's you who is not sane.


This is the buttcoin way. He's acting pretty much like a bitcoin forums professional. Any time somebody calls out a blatantly obvious scam they're shouted down with "FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt)!!!!" and that this FUD prevents them from investing their wife's 401K or their life savings into an obvious ponzi scheme. There is no rational discussion on the bitcoin forums. One thread called out Butterfly Labs as an obvious scam only to get regulated to the "German Language" part of the forum. It was a rational OP asking reasonable questions to the shiatbags at BFL.

The guy who runs the bitcoin forums has taken in thousands in donations to "upgrade" yet has never did a thing to the forums. Ever.

The professional buttcoiner's response to all this is exactly what we're seeing with Mr. d23. Call everybody else crazy and revel in their perpetual smugness. I find it hilarious and not altogether out of the mainstream for buttcoin.

Any peer to peer currency will have to overcome the hurdle of it's user base in order to become widely accepted.

Hey, d23, do you go to a restaurant and tip the server in bitcoins? Because that's a very popular way of being a douchbag on the forums. Imagine this: you're 21 year old women working at a Applebees as you're going to school. Not only does the creepy guy in the fedora clumsily hit on you but he leaves you a piece of paper with a long string of numbers and letters on it, along with instructions on how to set up a wallet.dat on your school laptop. You do so, why not, but this was a pretty shiatty tip. Even shiattier when you find out the guy only tipped you $0.78 in bitcoins.
2013-08-27 10:50:44 AM  
1 votes:

trotsky: this even makes it's use for drugs suspect


I always thought the whole process of receiving the drugs made its use for drugs suspect. I can't imagine a system where I would feel safe using bitcoin to purchase illegal goods from a remote seller.
2013-08-27 10:49:11 AM  
1 votes:

trotsky: BTC is a fine concept but a terrible idea for practical use. Most of the advantages, like anonymity, are not particularity true( http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.4524 ) and this even makes it's use for drugs suspect. On it's own, it can serve as the base for something bigger, which I'm convinced will come down the pike sooner or later.

The thing that sends it over the top though is the community. LOLibertarians, morons with too much cash (there's idiots on the BTC forums throwing 50K+ as recently as last week into this), scammers and "Sovereign Citizens" types who believe it will enable them to go "off the grid". Pirateat40, the guy who pulled off the funniest scam on the forums so far, is getting his ass prosecuted by the SEC finally. Best part is he only made 150K or so off of it.

Bitcoin!

Other hilarious highlights include:

-The LOLibertarian infiltrating a forum of camgirls to convince them to take BTC. He posed as a women until they outed him, then he got huffy, called them "feminazis and biatches" and left. Comedy gold.

-The various idiots trying to live of bitcoin but who end up cheating or just trading their electronic hashes to people who give them real money to live on. There's a couple right now trying to film a documentary and the way they operate is simply to get other people to purchase items and paying those people a premium to do so.

-The SEC and some EU regulatory agencies are taking steps to crack down on the exchanges and enforce tax payment on larger BTC holders. Go ahead and try to cash out right now. Go to Magic: The Gathering On-Line Exchange and try to cash out. Good luck!

-What somebody mentioned above, most of the BTC isn't even liquid, it's held by hoarders and "investors".

-If you want a good laugh, read up on Butterfly Labs and their scam business to provide ASICs and other equipment to bitcoin miners. 99% of which has never been delivered. No refunds now either.

Essentially bitcoin is like every other internet phenomenon. Supposedly w ...


Basically even if BTC prices stabilized and more people I wanted to do commerce with would accept them, I might consider picking a few up. That said I'd never consider BTC to be a money-generating enterprise in and of itself, and the fact that the community around it has such an idea is enough to sour me on BTC's as they presently are. It's not a Ponzi but it does seem to be structured as a very gameable system that benefits early adopters at the expense of newcomers, so cries of Ponzi are only natural.
2013-08-27 10:44:59 AM  
1 votes:

d23: Why would I make another comment?  Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am... heh.

A great way to tell if something is important is to see who it's pissing off.


Well when you leave gems like this static filled post:

d23: warning: don't expect intelligent discussion on this topic on Fark.

Some subjects, yeah, but this is way too complex and there are too many assholes that just want to scream "PONZI!?!?!11" and go away.


... expect not to have an intelligent discussion. If all you've presented is flimsily rationalized pessimism and should someone engage you on what issues they might have with Bitcoins and all you do is get huffy or offer even more flimsy rationalizations (as what I've seen from BTC supporters on Fark about this) why the hell talk to you?

You want intelligent discussion, do your part and bring some intelligent discussion into here. If the whole world is full of crazy people to you, maybe it's you who is not sane.
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-27 10:27:02 AM  
1 votes:
Why would I make another comment?  Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am... heh.

A great way to tell if something is important is to see who it's pissing off.
2013-08-27 10:21:31 AM  
1 votes:
BTC is a fine concept but a terrible idea for practical use. Most of the advantages, like anonymity, are not particularity true( http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.4524 ) and this even makes it's use for drugs suspect. On it's own, it can serve as the base for something bigger, which I'm convinced will come down the pike sooner or later.

The thing that sends it over the top though is the community. LOLibertarians, morons with too much cash (there's idiots on the BTC forums throwing 50K+ as recently as last week into this), scammers and "Sovereign Citizens" types who believe it will enable them to go "off the grid". Pirateat40, the guy who pulled off the funniest scam on the forums so far, is getting his ass prosecuted by the SEC finally. Best part is he only made 150K or so off of it.

Bitcoin!

Other hilarious highlights include:

-The LOLibertarian infiltrating a forum of camgirls to convince them to take BTC. He posed as a women until they outed him, then he got huffy, called them "feminazis and biatches" and left. Comedy gold.

-The various idiots trying to live of bitcoin but who end up cheating or just trading their electronic hashes to people who give them real money to live on. There's a couple right now trying to film a documentary and the way they operate is simply to get other people to purchase items and paying those people a premium to do so.

-The SEC and some EU regulatory agencies are taking steps to crack down on the exchanges and enforce tax payment on larger BTC holders. Go ahead and try to cash out right now. Go to Magic: The Gathering On-Line Exchange and try to cash out. Good luck!

-What somebody mentioned above, most of the BTC isn't even liquid, it's held by hoarders and "investors".

-If you want a good laugh, read up on Butterfly Labs and their scam business to provide ASICs and other equipment to bitcoin miners. 99% of which has never been delivered. No refunds now either.

Essentially bitcoin is like every other internet phenomenon. Supposedly what was the "next big thing" has turned into a joke on the very people who shill for it.

And don't forget Bruce and Bitcoin Show. He was the best.
2013-08-27 10:21:02 AM  
1 votes:
I'll be the first to say that I don't know a lot about Bitcoin, but there's an awful lot that doesn't seem right to me.

Unless a vendor accepts Bitcoins, they're useless and have no purchasing power at all. If you transfer money to someone else in the US or Russia, or where ever, what good are Bitcoins to them? Aren't they going to want local currency to buy goods?

Am I completely wrong about the concept of Bitcoins? I'm not ruling that out.
2013-08-27 10:07:19 AM  
1 votes:
I wonder if they bothered to explain the part about how this "miracle currency" has a built-in supply limit designed to create inflation once miners run out of "buttcoins" (as my friends endearingly call them" to mineBut at least they'll always have Germany
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-27 09:07:10 AM  
1 votes:
warning: don't expect intelligent discussion on this topic on Fark.

Some subjects, yeah, but this is way too complex and there are too many assholes that just want to scream "PONZI!?!?!11" and go away.
2013-08-27 08:59:14 AM  
1 votes:
Authorities have expressed concerns about potential money laundering abuses and its use in funding illegal activities including drug purchases.

So, just like U.S. Dollars?
2013-08-27 08:55:34 AM  
1 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Throw them in jail for tax evasion


Only if they fail to pay taxes on their bitcoin income.
2013-08-27 08:46:33 AM  
1 votes:
I get it that sticking it to the man is an appealing port of Bitcoin, but you should keep emotions out of your money decisions.
2013-08-27 08:40:12 AM  
1 votes:

Mjeck: The Government doesn't like competition?


Why? It already tolerates many other things that are de facto currency (frequent flyer miles being an immediate example).

Oh right democratically elected governments- even with flawed election laws- totally have no authority over the individual living in a civil society, man. Also, anyone see my lighter? I totes don't want to break the smoke cypher man.
/love weed myself, just tired of my generation
2013-08-27 08:35:27 AM  
1 votes:
The Government doesn't like competition?
 
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