If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NBC News)   Park system now finding out what happens when you never let areas burn periodically as they helplessly get ready to watch The Great Sequoias become charcoal in California   (usnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 52
    More: Sad, Yosemite National Park, Yosemite National Park 15, park system, California Department of Forestry, fire protection, percent contained, wildfires, National Park Service  
•       •       •

13914 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Aug 2013 at 4:49 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-08-26 05:02:01 PM
5 votes:

debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?


Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.
2013-08-26 06:28:45 PM
4 votes:

HeadLever: Add to the fact that many environmental organizations consider logging to be the debil's work and you end up with a logjam in forest management .


The problem is that the logging industry wants to take the tall, healthy trees, not the old dying trees or accumulating dead underbrush. Republicans are trying to use "look, forest fires!" as an excuse to allow loggers to take the exact fraction of the forests we need to preserve, leaving behind the exact fraction of the forests that causes the problems with vast forest fires.

It is just another example of how every Republican populist talking point is fraudulently disingenuous.
2013-08-26 05:05:49 PM
4 votes:

debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?


It's not just that. The trees actually need fire to reproduce.
2013-08-26 05:02:08 PM
4 votes:

abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.


It does not have to 'burn down'.  Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor.  However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path.  Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.
2013-08-26 04:58:32 PM
4 votes:
Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

You sound brown. smart . 

And racist.

ftfy
2013-08-26 04:55:25 PM
4 votes:

vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.


You sound brown.

And racist.
2013-08-26 04:52:15 PM
4 votes:
No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.
2013-08-26 05:26:04 PM
3 votes:
Good the faster we run out of things, because of stupidity, the sooner we'll die off as a species, for the over all betterment of the planet and the universe as a whole.
2013-08-26 08:08:20 PM
2 votes:

Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

You sound brown.

And racist.


and correct, don't forget he is also correct. which is probably why you have all that sand in your vagina.
2013-08-26 05:35:49 PM
2 votes:

fickenchucker: When are going to finally split California into three states so their eco-craziness is clipped?  Being so large they get to dictate nearly every policy in America, oftentimes not for the best.

/It's not good to have one state basically the same population of Canada.


So long as the same thing happens to Texas so they can stop farking with textbooks.
2013-08-26 05:34:53 PM
2 votes:
I don't think there is much reason to believe the native population wouldn't have farked things up nearly as bad as the Europeans did once their population grew large enough. It isn't as if non european cultures have some sort of monopoly on environmental stewardship. See Easter Island.
2013-08-26 05:30:59 PM
2 votes:
Well I bet the Mexican drug cartel is not happy about their bad luck.....
2013-08-26 05:15:16 PM
2 votes:
Aurric: .... Occam's Nailfile's feelings are hurt.  Someone please get him a tissue.

This thread's topic isn't even about racism.  Good grief.


Everything's about race to a RACIST.
2013-08-26 05:11:01 PM
2 votes:

Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.
Let the black man run Detroit.
You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail.  They don't know what the fark they are doing.  Let the black man run Detroit.  He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?


Racism against people of color: wage disparities, income disparities, sentencing and profile disparities, tangible negative effects.

"Racism" against white people: Occam's Nailfile's feelings are hurt.  Someone please get him a tissue.

This thread's topic isn't even about racism.  Good grief.
2013-08-27 02:35:01 AM
1 votes:

Aurric: "Racism" against white people: Occam's Nailfile's feelings are hurt.


My feelings aren't hurt, Aurric.  I just call out racism when I see it.  I agree, the thread isn't about race...or rather, wasn't, until some jackass started spouting off about "the white man", as if that has a farking thing to do with wildfires.  What's odd is that when someone starts blabbing about how something is white people's fault, everyone here on Fark (and just about any public forum) just goes about their business, as if those kinds of statements are just A-OK.

They're not.  They're racially divisive and inflammatory.  A person can't honestly can't claim to be against racism and then ignore statements like that.  It's like the feminists being silent when people make misogynistic comments about conservative women.  If someone can't speak out against all examples of bigotry, then they're just another jackass with an agenda.

Sorry for the thread jack though.
2013-08-26 10:39:29 PM
1 votes:
See http://www.inciweb.org/  for the scariest info. CA has nothing on Idaho.

Sort the fires by acres burned.

There are 5 active fires over 100,000 acres. The Rim (CA) and the Pony Complex (ID) are tied neck and neck for first at 149K acres. Two other fires are also in Idaho. So, 3 of the top 5 all in ID. CA is third in size. ID is 14th.
2013-08-26 08:09:58 PM
1 votes:

Norfolking Chance: HeadLever: abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

It does not have to 'burn down'.  Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor.  However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path.  Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.

LEt me guess, wealthy people have built holiday homes in the forests and have activly lobbied for the laws that built up the brushwood?


DING! DING! DING!
 A winnar is you!
2013-08-26 07:44:14 PM
1 votes:

Okieboy: vudukungfu

"The people that have survived" are doing great here in Oklahoma between smoke shops and casinos they are buying up pretty much everything.

/wish I had my Cherokee ID card...


wait, being Cherokee gets one something now somewhere?  I've been out of touch...

I think most of the relatives I had what used to be very active Cherokee-ians are all dead now, but...hey, I'd like to buy up everything too.
2013-08-26 07:41:13 PM
1 votes:

I Like Shiny Things: This is bullshiat.

All we need to do is get some libs in office and this shiat will be taken care of.

God damn farking republicans. They are destroying this country.


Huh???

10/10??
2013-08-26 07:37:04 PM
1 votes:

HeadLever: mtbhucker: I work for an environmental organization and we like what is going on in Montana, particularly what is going on with the practices on the eastern slopes and are trying to convince our government to look at those practices instead of clearcutting which is currently being practiced.

It sounds like you work for a environmental group that is willing to work with land managers and the logging industry.  Good for you.  I agree that the practices of logging always needs to be scrutinized and we do need to attempt to be better stewards.  However, we also need to recognize that logging is a tool that should be utilized and can work for the communities and the forest.

Generalizing loggers into a Republican arm that only wants to destroy everythign in their path is the wrong way to look at this issue.


We do try to work with industry and government, but there is a small contingent of powerful land managers and civil servants in the govt that are holdovers from the 70s and 80s who only see trees as a source of wood fibre and nothing else.  It doesn't help that the lone sawmill in the area has very powerful allies. They push clearcuts as the only way to control fire and pine beetles.  Recently they've added water harvesting as a way to justify clearcuts, which I don't think will go over well in an area that is still cleaning up from the worst flooding In decades.
2013-08-26 07:16:18 PM
1 votes:

AllUpInYa: Betcha, a lot of marijuana grow ops have gone "up in smoke" too


Yep and the cost for it has just gone up...ha, ha
2013-08-26 07:11:39 PM
1 votes:

mtbhucker: I work for an environmental organization and we like what is going on in Montana, particularly what is going on with the practices on the eastern slopes and are trying to convince our government to look at those practices instead of clearcutting which is currently being practiced.


It sounds like you work for a environmental group that is willing to work with land managers and the logging industry.  Good for you.  I agree that the practices of logging always needs to be scrutinized and we do need to attempt to be better stewards.  However, we also need to recognize that logging is a tool that should be utilized and can work for the communities and the forest.

Generalizing loggers into a Republican arm that only wants to destroy everythign in their path is the wrong way to look at this issue.
2013-08-26 07:10:08 PM
1 votes:
Betcha, a lot of marijuana grow ops have gone "up in smoke" too
2013-08-26 07:01:49 PM
1 votes:

HeadLever: Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.

Yeah, because you hear all the republicans in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Arizona excited about wildfire in thier state.

Forest Management is not really a hard issue to solve from a technical stanpoint, however, it is a nighmare from the political perspective.  You either need to reduce the fuels on human terms or let the wildfires run their course.

If you pick the first option, you have only 2 effective ways of doing this - prescribed burns or some type of logging.  Neither one is really attractive to the environmental/nimby community.  Aslo some fuel loads are high enough that prescribed burns are very risky.

If you pick the second option, you are going to see continued loss property and firefighters lives.

I work for an environmental organization and we like what is going on in Montana, particularly what is going on with the practices on the eastern slopes and are trying to convince our government to look at those practices instead of  clearcutting which is currently being practiced.
2013-08-26 06:54:43 PM
1 votes:

give me doughnuts: LeroyBourne: mcreadyblue: LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.

Wood turns into glass??!!

No. Wood floats too. Do you know what else floats? Tiny rocks.


And bread.


And witches!!
2013-08-26 06:49:41 PM
1 votes:

Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.


Look how stupid you sound...
2013-08-26 06:49:38 PM
1 votes:
They've known about the value of periodic fires for a while. They've even been doing it on purpose.
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/haase/psw_1998_haase001.pdf
2013-08-26 06:48:20 PM
1 votes:
FTA - We're going to do our best to rebuild it back for the grandkids and great grandkids to enjoy it.
I hate to break the news, but you're gonna need to find some logs to rebuild that log cabin.
2013-08-26 06:36:00 PM
1 votes:

Enigmamf: The problem is that the logging industry wants to take the tall, healthy trees, not the old dying trees or accumulating dead underbrush. Republicans are trying to use "look, forest fires!" as an excuse to allow loggers to take the exact fraction of the forests we need to preserve, leaving behind the exact fraction of the forests that causes the problems with vast forest fires.


The trick to this is that you can easily mandate removal of the underbrush along with the trees the timber industry wants.
2013-08-26 06:24:35 PM
1 votes:

hailin: I guess they didn't learn from Yellowstone National Park. That part of the park still hasn't grown all the way back yet and that was almost 20 years ago.


uh, last I knew it takes about 100-250 years for a typical lodgepole pine to be considered mature.  http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_rn029.pdf
So unless you want to replant Yellowstone with Poplars, you're just going to have to wait a bit.
2013-08-26 06:08:50 PM
1 votes:
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

This mean I finally might get to carve out
the world's first drive-through humidor?

Yee-Haw!

2013-08-26 05:35:41 PM
1 votes:
Whatever you do, don't let any of the slash-and-burn farmers from Central America get hold of it.  That's really bad land management.  And, that practice seems to be ingrained in them.

Forest management isn't a bad idea.  It may just need adjustment.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wonder if any of these fires are started by some of those drug cartel growers that have set up shop in the California mountains according to news media reports.
2013-08-26 05:29:51 PM
1 votes:
JamesSirBensonMum: Can't we just grow new giant Sequoias? yes - they grow back

/ "Sequoias" is the shortest word with all five vowels. interesting - what can't trees do??
// It's not the spotted owl we worry about in the Sierras anymore, it is some stupid frog: in oregon, we are going to shoot other owls who are mean to the spotted owl  http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/environment&id=9145456
// Also, brown man wasn't always a friend of nature:  http://en.wikipedia.org  - natives also own forest land and use clear cut practices /wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire

i get that logging practices were out of control in the states, but that has changed considerably in the last 20 years.
so instead of allowing responsible forestry (i.e. not the practices of south america / africa / s.e. asia) in the states, we ban any of it that would yield anything more than a 4x4 , ruin small towns & flock to plastic substitutes.
the real irony is that they are looking for ways to manage the forests but realize that there are no more mills with head rigs large enough for big trees. so instead, it all burns.
2013-08-26 05:29:37 PM
1 votes:

mcreadyblue: LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.

Wood turns into glass??!!


Dirt is basically sand with some other stuff mixed in. You heat up sand under the right conditions, you wind up with glass.
2013-08-26 05:28:55 PM
1 votes:

hailin: I guess they didn't learn from Yellowstone National Park. That part of the park still hasn't grown all the way back yet and that was almost 20 years ago.


And the park ecosystem has improved because of it.
2013-08-26 05:28:31 PM
1 votes:
meat0918:
There are far too many nimbys that claim to be environmentalists just because it gives them a more legitimate leg to stand on besides "I don't want it to ruin my view".

We just got a grant from the California gov't to reduce the fuel on our 20 acres (called CFIP).  They are actually paying homeowners to clear brush, thin out canopies, and generally make large areas of land fire-safe.
When I compare this to what happened in Tahoe a few years back, I shake my head.  In Tahoe (IIRC), they couldn't legally cut down any brush in their own yard, even if it was touching their houses.  In my neighborhood, we can't build a house that isn't almost clear-cut for 100ft around it.
2013-08-26 05:22:01 PM
1 votes:

patrick767: debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?

Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.


Yeah, in a healthy forest, a wildfire (with no firefighters) will only take 1/3 of the trees. Plus, the heat germinates the pinecones for the next generation. Live pines don't burn in a fire -- they die when there's enough fuel that it boils them, then they die, then burn. The thing to do is just let them burn.

Bristlecone pines actually produce a resin in their needles that's highly flammable, so they can put fuel on the lesser trees beneath them for the next fire that comes through. The same trees have been burning the hell out of their competition for 1000s of years.
2013-08-26 05:20:49 PM
1 votes:
As far as I can tell, no Sequoias have been even damaged, much less destroyed by this fire.
2013-08-26 05:19:59 PM
1 votes:
I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.
2013-08-26 05:19:46 PM
1 votes:

Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

You sound brown.

And racist.


Brownies cannot be racist.  Morality is found in melanin.
2013-08-26 05:18:06 PM
1 votes:

Norfolking Chance: LEt me guess, wealthy people have built holiday homes in the forests and have activly lobbied for the laws that built up the brushwood?


That is one aspect.  Another is that the public wants to see green forest, not black forest.  Add to the fact that many environmental organizations consider logging to be the debil's work and you end up with a logjam in forest management .

you are probably too young to remember the backlash that Reagan got for the let it burn policy in Yellowstone. In any case, this is not a new debate.
2013-08-26 05:14:33 PM
1 votes:

FunkOut: Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.
Let the black man run Detroit.
You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail.  They don't know what the fark they are doing.  Let the black man run Detroit.  He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?

Black people were living in Detroit for thousands of years?


Yes Andrew Jackson moved them there.

(psst Occam the difference is one of those things actually happened).
2013-08-26 05:12:29 PM
1 votes:

Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.


Yeah, because you hear all the republicans in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Arizona excited about wildfire in thier state.

Forest Management is not really a hard issue to solve from a technical stanpoint, however, it is a nighmare from the political perspective.  You either need to reduce the fuels on human terms or let the wildfires run their course.

If you pick the first option, you have only 2 effective ways of doing this - prescribed burns or some type of logging.  Neither one is really attractive to the environmental/nimby community.  Aslo some fuel loads are high enough that prescribed burns are very risky.

If you pick the second option, you are going to see continued loss property and firefighters lives.
2013-08-26 05:10:29 PM
1 votes:

HeadLever: abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

It does not have to 'burn down'.  Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor.  However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path.  Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.


LEt me guess, wealthy people have built holiday homes in the forests and have activly lobbied for the laws that built up the brushwood?
2013-08-26 05:09:49 PM
1 votes:

HeadLever: abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

It does not have to 'burn down'.  Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor.  However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path.  Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.


Some of those trees even require a fire to open their cones and reseed themselves.  I thought the Park Service learned this about 20 years ago with the big Yellowstone fires.  Fire's been around longer than man, or land management.
2013-08-26 05:02:50 PM
1 votes:
That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.
2013-08-26 05:02:41 PM
1 votes:

vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.


OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.
Let the black man run Detroit.
You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail.  They don't know what the fark they are doing.  Let the black man run Detroit.  He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?
2013-08-26 05:01:40 PM
1 votes:
This was never a problem before man invented fire.
2013-08-26 04:58:21 PM
1 votes:
vudukungfu

"The people that have survived" are doing great here in Oklahoma between smoke shops and casinos they are buying up pretty much everything.

/wish I had my Cherokee ID card...
2013-08-26 04:56:32 PM
1 votes:
I know that we want to preserve the park but our mandate should be to preserve nature from man and not preserve nature from itself.

It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.
2013-08-26 04:56:25 PM
1 votes:
Woops, nevermind.  I always though they were closer together.
2013-08-26 04:55:30 PM
1 votes:
I have to head down to Eureka for work soon, this is not good news.
 
Displayed 52 of 52 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report