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(NBC News)   Park system now finding out what happens when you never let areas burn periodically as they helplessly get ready to watch The Great Sequoias become charcoal in California   (usnews.nbcnews.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, Yosemite National Park, Yosemite National Park 15, park system, California Department of Forestry, fire protection, percent contained, wildfires, National Park Service  
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13932 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Aug 2013 at 4:49 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-26 05:28:31 PM  
meat0918:
There are far too many nimbys that claim to be environmentalists just because it gives them a more legitimate leg to stand on besides "I don't want it to ruin my view".

We just got a grant from the California gov't to reduce the fuel on our 20 acres (called CFIP).  They are actually paying homeowners to clear brush, thin out canopies, and generally make large areas of land fire-safe.
When I compare this to what happened in Tahoe a few years back, I shake my head.  In Tahoe (IIRC), they couldn't legally cut down any brush in their own yard, even if it was touching their houses.  In my neighborhood, we can't build a house that isn't almost clear-cut for 100ft around it.
 
2013-08-26 05:28:55 PM  

hailin: I guess they didn't learn from Yellowstone National Park. That part of the park still hasn't grown all the way back yet and that was almost 20 years ago.


And the park ecosystem has improved because of it.
 
2013-08-26 05:29:15 PM  

mcreadyblue: LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.

Wood turns into glass??!!


No. Wood floats too. Do you know what else floats? Tiny rocks.
 
2013-08-26 05:29:30 PM  

patrick767: debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?

Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.


It's kind of like when you forget to trim your pubes. What could have been a weak smolder is now a PUBE FIRE!!
 
2013-08-26 05:29:37 PM  

mcreadyblue: LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.

Wood turns into glass??!!


Dirt is basically sand with some other stuff mixed in. You heat up sand under the right conditions, you wind up with glass.
 
2013-08-26 05:29:51 PM  
JamesSirBensonMum: Can't we just grow new giant Sequoias? yes - they grow back

/ "Sequoias" is the shortest word with all five vowels. interesting - what can't trees do??
// It's not the spotted owl we worry about in the Sierras anymore, it is some stupid frog: in oregon, we are going to shoot other owls who are mean to the spotted owl  http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/environment&id=9145456
// Also, brown man wasn't always a friend of nature:  http://en.wikipedia.org  - natives also own forest land and use clear cut practices /wiki/Native_American_use_of_fire

i get that logging practices were out of control in the states, but that has changed considerably in the last 20 years.
so instead of allowing responsible forestry (i.e. not the practices of south america / africa / s.e. asia) in the states, we ban any of it that would yield anything more than a 4x4 , ruin small towns & flock to plastic substitutes.
the real irony is that they are looking for ways to manage the forests but realize that there are no more mills with head rigs large enough for big trees. so instead, it all burns.
 
2013-08-26 05:30:59 PM  
Well I bet the Mexican drug cartel is not happy about their bad luck.....
 
2013-08-26 05:31:29 PM  

meat0918: I have to head down to Eureka for work soon, this is not good news.


meat0918: Woops, nevermind.  I always though they were closer together.


I was going to ask if you had ever been to the area before LOL
 
2013-08-26 05:32:31 PM  

albatros183: Good the faster we run out of things, because of stupidity, the sooner we'll die off as a species, for the over all betterment of the planet and the universe as a whole.


The planet and universe are just fine with or without: us, sequoias, cows, lions and any other living thing you can mention. If we tipped over the planet to become a toxic Venus-like wasteland, earth would chug right along. In no way do humans effect this planets survival in the least, unless we can figure out a way to jam mars into it.
 
2013-08-26 05:32:53 PM  

Okieboy: vudukungfu

"The people that have survived" are doing great here in Oklahoma between smoke shops and casinos they are buying up pretty much everything.

/wish I had my Cherokee ID card...


Yes about that you can have Oklahoma....


//RUN!!!!
 
2013-08-26 05:34:40 PM  
When are going to finally split California into three states so their eco-craziness is clipped?  Being so large they get to dictate nearly every policy in America, oftentimes not for the best.

/It's not good to have one state basically the same population of Canada.
 
2013-08-26 05:34:53 PM  
I don't think there is much reason to believe the native population wouldn't have farked things up nearly as bad as the Europeans did once their population grew large enough. It isn't as if non european cultures have some sort of monopoly on environmental stewardship. See Easter Island.
 
2013-08-26 05:35:41 PM  
Whatever you do, don't let any of the slash-and-burn farmers from Central America get hold of it.  That's really bad land management.  And, that practice seems to be ingrained in them.

Forest management isn't a bad idea.  It may just need adjustment.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I wonder if any of these fires are started by some of those drug cartel growers that have set up shop in the California mountains according to news media reports.
 
2013-08-26 05:35:49 PM  

fickenchucker: When are going to finally split California into three states so their eco-craziness is clipped?  Being so large they get to dictate nearly every policy in America, oftentimes not for the best.

/It's not good to have one state basically the same population of Canada.


So long as the same thing happens to Texas so they can stop farking with textbooks.
 
2013-08-26 05:36:13 PM  

Khazar-Khum: And the park ecosystem has improved because of it.


You can argue the opposite in many cases.  Thes large scale fires really increases sediment loads into nearby streams and this really has an impact on native fish.  When you have fires that burn hot enough to sterilze the soil, it can take decades before the ground cover can revegitate and reduce sediment runoff.

We had an episode where I grew up where the runoff had enough black ash and the temps were high enough that the river water temperature almost got high enough to kill the trout and salmon.
 
2013-08-26 05:37:23 PM  

patrick767: debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?

Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.


That's a bingo.  When you immediately stop fires instead of letting areas burn regularly, then you have more intense fires because when they start, they have an abundance of fuel to burn.  Then, in the case when you really need to be able to control a fire and stop it, you can't because you've allowed too much time to pass since the last one.
 
2013-08-26 05:38:28 PM  

Aurric: Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.
Let the black man run Detroit.
You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail.  They don't know what the fark they are doing.  Let the black man run Detroit.  He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?

Racism against people of color: wage disparities, income disparities, sentencing and profile disparities, tangible negative effects.

"Racism" against white people: Occam's Nailfile's feelings are hurt.  Someone please get him a tissue.

This thread's topic isn't even about racism.  Good grief.


Sounds like you're the one who need the tissue. Good grief.
 
2013-08-26 05:38:50 PM  

lockers: The planet and universe are just fine with or without: us, sequoias, cows, lions and any other living thing you can mention.


Correct, it was just looking for platic, right?  Didn't know how to make it.  Needed us.
 
2013-08-26 05:39:06 PM  
What's the big deal? Redwoods are designed to handle fire. They're fairly resistant to fire, which is also necessary to them reproducing.  Educate yourselves before you piss your pants.
 
2013-08-26 05:39:12 PM  
Thank you Eco Idiots
 
2013-08-26 05:40:54 PM  

HeadLever: We had an episode where I grew up where the runoff had enough black ash and the temps were high enough that the river water temperature almost got high enough to kill the trout and salmon.


Sheesh.
 
2013-08-26 05:42:19 PM  
FTA:  still threatens some 4,500 structures as well as the power and water utilities in San Francisco, roughly 200 miles to the west

What?
 
2013-08-26 05:42:46 PM  
If I remember correctly, the coastal Redwoods require forest fires to get their pine cones to open up and start growing new trees. Also (again if I remember correctly) aren't they very fire resistant and don't get burned up by forest fires?

It's been about 15 years or so since I've been out that way, so my memory might be 100%, but I'm still fairly sure that was the case.
 
2013-08-26 05:43:13 PM  
bintherdunthat:
I wonder if any of these fires are started by some of those drug cartel growers that have set up shop in the California mountains according to news media reports.

Not the most recent ones; they have all been lightning strikes.  Yosemite is expecting another thunder storm on Tuesday.  We can expect a bunch more spot fires to light up.  Most of them burn out quickly or are squashed from the air before they get too big.
August fire maps
California State Fire Map
Federal Fire Map (the "Rim" fire is a USFS fire)
 
2013-08-26 05:44:23 PM  
HeadLever
We had an episode where I grew up where the runoff had enough black ash and the temps were high enough that the river water temperature almost got high enough to kill the trout and salmon.


Don't be knockin' poached salmon!
 
2013-08-26 05:45:14 PM  

Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.
Let the black man run Detroit.
You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail.  They don't know what the fark they are doing.  Let the black man run Detroit.  He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?


But they have done such a great job of making Africa such a wonderful place to live.....NOT...
 
2013-08-26 05:50:02 PM  

Anthracite: meat0918: I have to head down to Eureka for work soon, this is not good news.

meat0918: Woops, nevermind.  I always though they were closer together.

I was going to ask if you had ever been to the area before LOL


Only been as far south as Crescent City.
 
2013-08-26 05:50:24 PM  
I live on 57 acres of land. 30 of that is dense woods. I cut a lot of trails and clear out as much as I can because of all the dead shiat that gathers up. Hedge apple...Lots and lots of hedge apple trees. They grow so thick it creates a natural wall that never rots. It burns like a motherfarker as well. I don't really want some natural event to occur where it all catches on fire, it would be horrific.

It is also nice to be able to walk in those woods without being eaten alive by all the thorns.
 
2013-08-26 05:50:44 PM  

Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.


Quoting the all-knowing Wikipedia:
Wood from mature giant sequoias is highly resistant to decay, but due to being fibrous and brittle, it is generally unsuitable for construction. From the 1880s through the 1920s, logging took place in many groves in spite of marginal commercial returns. Due to their weight and brittleness, trees would often shatter when they hit the ground, wasting much of the wood. Loggers attempted to cushion the impact by digging trenches and filling them with branches. Still, as little as 50% of the timber is estimated to have made it from groves to the mill. The wood was used mainly for shingles and fence posts, or even for matchsticks.

So, probably not for picnic tables. Apparently, though, they are AWESOME for matchsticks.
 
2013-08-26 05:50:46 PM  

Honest Bender: What's the big deal? Redwoods are designed to handle fire.


Not a fire of this magnitude.  Sure, you can replant seedlings after they are gone, but that is not the point here.

http://news.yahoo.com/yosemite-takes-steps-protect-sequoias-fire-1950 5 9969.html
 
2013-08-26 05:51:06 PM  
Well, and the Bay Area up to Cloverdale/Santa Rosa, but it's like  being in two different states.
 
2013-08-26 05:51:06 PM  

ph0rk: fickenchucker: When are going to finally split California into three states so their eco-craziness is clipped?  Being so large they get to dictate nearly every policy in America, oftentimes not for the best.

/It's not good to have one state basically the same population of Canada.

So long as the same thing happens to Texas so they can stop farking with textbooks.


Done--no state should be more than 10,000,000.  Split them all up.

/My state has 5.7 million.
 
2013-08-26 05:52:18 PM  

Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.


Wow, that was retarded. You seriously believe that?
 
2013-08-26 05:54:22 PM  

zipdog: abfalter: I know that we want to preserve the park but our mandate should be to preserve nature from man and not preserve nature from itself.

It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

But not the sequoias. They're special.


How many T-shirts does your picture sell?
 
2013-08-26 05:54:45 PM  

fickenchucker: ph0rk: fickenchucker: When are going to finally split California into three states so their eco-craziness is clipped?  Being so large they get to dictate nearly every policy in America, oftentimes not for the best.

/It's not good to have one state basically the same population of Canada.

So long as the same thing happens to Texas so they can stop farking with textbooks.

Done--no state should be more than 10,000,000.  Split them all up.

/My state has 5.7 million.


We have over 7 million in our state that are here illegally and adding people every day in the baby wards, do we count them??
 
2013-08-26 05:56:39 PM  

ga362: Don't be knockin' poached salmon!


Yeah, but many of these are ESA listed 'endangered salmon'.   They go best on a cedar plank*.

*the wild fish are listed as endangered, you can still generally fish for (and keep) the hatchery-raised salmon.
 
2013-08-26 06:03:07 PM  
at least they will have something to run the furnaces if there is no coal on the map
 
2013-08-26 06:06:16 PM  

LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.


You and your wife (Morgan Fairchild! - Yeah, that's right...) were watching that show together, I'll bet.
 
2013-08-26 06:08:50 PM  

images1.wikia.nocookie.net

This mean I finally might get to carve out
the world's first drive-through humidor?

Yee-Haw!

 
2013-08-26 06:10:07 PM  

vudukungfu: No no no no.
Let the white man steward the land.
he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.
You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.


Like a few tribal assholes knew the difference.
 
2013-08-26 06:11:55 PM  

meat0918: Woops, nevermind.  I always though they were closer together.



Oh, thank goodness!  I wasn't sure if I was going to have time to pray for you and Omarion.
 
2013-08-26 06:12:08 PM  
One big fire instead of a whole bunch of little ones, subby?  That's called efficiency!
 
2013-08-26 06:14:35 PM  

noitsnot: LeroyBourne: I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass?  I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade.  They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land.  Crazy stuff.

You and your wife (Morgan Fairchild! - Yeah, that's right...) were watching that show together, I'll bet.


lol wut?  If I was married to that dime piece we wouldn't be sitting around watching documentaries on pbs, well we could, but I would need sex later.
 
2013-08-26 06:14:44 PM  
Ya think Sequoia and Redwood have already thought of fire, once or twice, in thousands of years? Answer C: (they have very fire proof bark)   I would worry more about the Bristlecone, so old it is not even in the dictionary.
 
2013-08-26 06:20:00 PM  

abfalter: I know that we want to preserve the park but our mandate should be to preserve nature from man and not preserve nature from itself.

It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.


Man is nature.  We are natural.
 
2013-08-26 06:21:10 PM  

HeadLever: ga362: Don't be knockin' poached salmon!

Yeah, but many of these are ESA listed 'endangered salmon'. They go best on a cedar

Sequoia  plank*.

Window seat please.
 
2013-08-26 06:22:50 PM  

JamesSirBensonMum: Federal Fire Map (the "Rim" fire is a USFS fire)


Check out "Mississippi" a fire in Alaska.  Wow...

Also, other fires to date: 838k acres out of a total of a total of 926k.

At times it seemed like the whole state was on fire.  Even miles away the smoke was so thick it was like fog.
 
2013-08-26 06:24:35 PM  

hailin: I guess they didn't learn from Yellowstone National Park. That part of the park still hasn't grown all the way back yet and that was almost 20 years ago.


uh, last I knew it takes about 100-250 years for a typical lodgepole pine to be considered mature.  http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_rn029.pdf
So unless you want to replant Yellowstone with Poplars, you're just going to have to wait a bit.
 
2013-08-26 06:27:27 PM  
I demand we smother this fire with old bacon grease.

/Because fried woodland critters can be tasty
 
2013-08-26 06:28:45 PM  

HeadLever: Add to the fact that many environmental organizations consider logging to be the debil's work and you end up with a logjam in forest management .


The problem is that the logging industry wants to take the tall, healthy trees, not the old dying trees or accumulating dead underbrush. Republicans are trying to use "look, forest fires!" as an excuse to allow loggers to take the exact fraction of the forests we need to preserve, leaving behind the exact fraction of the forests that causes the problems with vast forest fires.

It is just another example of how every Republican populist talking point is fraudulently disingenuous.
 
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