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(Opposing Views)   Master debater tells 78-year-old woman that he disagrees with her position on abortion, but respects her right to express it. Either that or he punches her. I forget which one   (opposingviews.com) divider line 363
    More: Dumbass, The Blaze, University of Iowa  
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12414 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Aug 2013 at 10:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-26 01:38:28 PM  

hardinparamedic: HeadLever: As I said, it is the beginning to a unique human life.  Just because some of them do not reach term (either by choice or chance) does not disqulifiy that statement.

So is ovulation and spermatogenesis, if you want to argue from this point.

So, every man and woman on earth is guilty of mass murder.


Wait, I thought Jesus did what he did so we wouldn't have to feel bad about this kind of shiat until the last second.
 
2013-08-26 01:38:52 PM  

hardinparamedic: So is ovulation and spermatogenesis, if you want to argue from this point.

So, every man and woman on earth is guilty of mass murder.


Not necessarily as these two halves need to be combined in order to get the 'unique human life' thing going.  By themselves , they are not a unique human life.

The real argument of the issue is when do you feel you need to apply protections on this 'unique human life'.  Some say at ony at birth and others say before.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-26 01:42:02 PM  

HeadLever: hardinparamedic: You'll never convince them that a bundle of cells is not a child. That's what their whole dogma in this fight depends on.

Strawman.  The 'dogma' depends that the item you are discussing is the beginning of a unique human life.


Wrong.  You're accepting your own definition of when life starts as being handed down by God instead of being an item up for human debate.  Sorry... I don't automatically accept the premises you do.
 
2013-08-26 01:42:14 PM  
Not only should he have punched her and knocked her down, he should have kicked her while she was down too! That's what she was doing, kicking those women while they were down. No woman I know goes skipping happily into an abortion clinic, and I've known a few. It's the toughest decision of their lives, and by the time they get to the clinic the choice is made. These people do nothing but make a horrible day worse. Some pro-life people would say that's great, maybe then these women will think twice before having unprotected sex, but that's the thing...there tends to be two types of women. The first type who genuinely has no other option, and will be wracked with guilt for life (these protesters maybe don't know that God will forgive them if they ask him too?). The second type (like my friends daughter) who have had like 7-8 abortions, and could give a rats ass about signs. Either way, the protesters are not helping.
 
2013-08-26 01:48:59 PM  

HeadLever: Not necessarily as these two halves need to be combined in order to get the 'unique human life' thing going.  By themselves , they are not a unique human life.


No sell. They're the "beginning of a human life", remember? And yeah, they are unique, as each contains 23 chromosomal combinations that are completely different than another.

HeadLever: The real argument of the issue is when do you feel you need to apply protections on this 'unique human life'.  Some say at ony at birth and others say before.


The "some" that you refer to take a 3500 year old book as the canon dogma of our Universe. There are very few people who completely oppose abortion on grounds that are not religious, either overtly or underlying.  And stop trying to confuse the issue with "before birth and after birth". It's more complex than the disingenuous statement you tried to boil it down to pretends.
 
2013-08-26 01:49:11 PM  

d23: You're accepting your own definition of when life starts as being handed down by God instead of being an item up for human debate.


Not necessarily as 'life starting' and the 'beginning of a unique human life' are two different things.  The issue of when does life start is a very complex and hotly debated topic in where there is no clear answer.  The 'beginning of a unique human life' is pretty clear cut.

Not saying that this has to be the metric in determining the chance/choice seperation, but it does need to be understood when discussing this issue.
 
2013-08-26 01:50:42 PM  

letrole: Abortion is Murder.


So you're against the death penalty as well?
 
2013-08-26 01:53:54 PM  
I'd love to stay in this thread longer but I've got to make like a fetus and head out
 
2013-08-26 01:54:08 PM  

INeedAName: letrole: Abortion is Murder.

So you're against the death penalty as well?


Death penalty? I think he's against omelets.
 
2013-08-26 01:57:09 PM  

hardinparamedic: No sell. They're the "beginning of a human life", remember?

And yeah, they are unique, as each contains 23 chromosomal combinations that are completely different than another.
 
No, it is 1/2 the possible beginning of an unique human life.  You are trying to creat a strawman agument.

The "some" that you refer to take a 3500 year old book as the canon dogma of our Universe.

There are plenty of secular pro-life organizations out there.  You can do a quick internet search if you want. Quit trying to stereotype the discussion into talking points.
 
2013-08-26 01:58:11 PM  

mooseyfate: JDAT: Children want you to hold their hand,

Not take their life.

Who has been murdering children wholesale and not batting an eye?


www.toomanyaborted.com

 
2013-08-26 02:02:35 PM  
letrole: Abortion is Murder.

INeedAName: So you're against the death penalty as well?

If by death penalty, you mean the unilateral decision to end an innocent human life based upon pragmatic rationalisations, then yes.
 
2013-08-26 02:04:08 PM  
Typical cowardly liberal.  Doesn't even have the guts to punch an old lady from the front.  He had to sucker punch her from behind.  But I've come to expect this from the party of "tolerance" and "diversity".

As for the lady and her sign, she believes that abortion is murder.  If you believed the same way and were not doing something to stop the slaughter of millions of innocents, well, you just don't have the conviction to do anything but eat that tofu burger in front of you.

And standing there with a sign is of course protected freedom of speech....
 
2013-08-26 02:04:33 PM  
Ah, I see the anti-abortionists have shown up to derail any possibility of rational discussion.
Carry on.
 
2013-08-26 02:04:43 PM  

JDAT: mooseyfate: JDAT: Children want you to hold their hand,

Not take their life.

Who has been murdering children wholesale and not batting an eye?


[610x273 from http://www.toomanyaborted.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/half_bubble_p lannedParenthood.png image 610x273]


Holding the hand of a fetus in utero will more than likely kill it.
 
2013-08-26 02:05:25 PM  

JDAT: Some children die by chance

No child should die by choice


Agreed. And no child has ever died from abortion.
 
2013-08-26 02:06:38 PM  
thechive.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-08-26 02:07:05 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Phinn: Abortion is great.  It depopulates the Democrats' core constituency.

They keep winning the popular vote.



That's why abortion needs to be fully subsidized, and free-to-the-customer, no-appointment-necessary service centers need to be opened wherever Powerball tickets are sold.
 
2013-08-26 02:08:09 PM  

HeadLever: No, it is 1/2 the possible beginning of an unique human life.  You are trying to creat a strawman agument.


Oh, for the love of God, shut up with this retort.
 
2013-08-26 02:08:43 PM  
letrole:

Isn't it time to retire this alt and try a new one?  You're really boring.
Oh, look, it's bevets.
Yawn.
 
2013-08-26 02:10:57 PM  

HeadLever: hardinparamedic: No sell. They're the "beginning of a human life", remember? And yeah, they are unique, as each contains 23 chromosomal combinations that are completely different than another.
 
No, it is 1/2 the possible beginning of an unique human life.  You are trying to creat a strawman agument.

The "some" that you refer to take a 3500 year old book as the canon dogma of our Universe.

There are plenty of secular pro-life organizations out there.  You can do a quick internet search if you want. Quit trying to stereotype the discussion into talking points.


Dude, no. You've been on fark long enough to know how this works, you make the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

Now, do you have a citation for this? Or did you pull that out of your ass without looking into it first and are trying to get us to do the research for you?
 
gja
2013-08-26 02:11:35 PM  

Carth: gja: Relatively Obscure: realmolo: The biatch DID deserve it. That doesn't mean she should get punched. We live in a civilized society. Violence is against the rules.

But come ON. Anti-abortion protesters are pieces-of-shiat. Wouldn't you punch one if there weren't any consequences? I know I would.

There aren't too many things that are going to make me want to punch a stupid old lady.  A strong disagreement probably isn't on that list.  If it wasn't just not in my nature to want to do that kind of thing, then the fact that once I started I'd be busy punching people for the rest of my life would deter me.

There is only 1 thing any woman could do to provoke me to strike her.
Waving a weapon at me is it. If a woman were to point a gun, or come towards me with a knife, with the clear intent to do deadly harm she will be waking up on the ground disarmed and likely hogtied. That is MY tipping point.

So you don't think it is acceptable to resort to violence to eliminate a greater evil?


Never said that. I merely established the tipping point for myself. Try to follow along.
 
2013-08-26 02:12:18 PM  
ReverendJasen: letrole: Isn't it time to retire this alt and try a new one? You're really boring.
Oh, look, it's bevets.


My surname is Le Trôle.

I reckon the problem here is that I'm simply expressing opinions that cannot be disputed without ad hominem and shout-downs and plain old histrionics. That does not make those opinions right. But, it certainly shows that they may not be wrong.
 
2013-08-26 02:14:00 PM  

hardinparamedic: HeadLever: No, it is 1/2 the possible beginning of an unique human life.  You are trying to creat a strawman agument.

Oh, for the love of God, shut up with this retort.


So I take it you have the inability to discern the difference between ovulation and spermatogenesis and the 'begining of a unique human life'.  If so, then I guess you were really not cut out for understading the other side of this issue.

/just trying to help you understand
//looks like you really don't want to
 
gja
2013-08-26 02:15:57 PM  

rga184: gja: Relatively Obscure: realmolo: The biatch DID deserve it. That doesn't mean she should get punched. We live in a civilized society. Violence is against the rules.

But come ON. Anti-abortion protesters are pieces-of-shiat. Wouldn't you punch one if there weren't any consequences? I know I would.

There aren't too many things that are going to make me want to punch a stupid old lady.  A strong disagreement probably isn't on that list.  If it wasn't just not in my nature to want to do that kind of thing, then the fact that once I started I'd be busy punching people for the rest of my life would deter me.

There is only 1 thing any woman could do to provoke me to strike her.
Waving a weapon at me is it. If a woman were to point a gun, or come towards me with a knife, with the clear intent to do deadly harm she will be waking up on the ground disarmed and likely hogtied. That is MY tipping point.

I think any woman who struck me with intent to harm me confident that her gender would protect her from getting struck back would test my self control.

But I think I could fark up her life worse by pressing charges for assault, so a cooler head would prevail and after her arrest, I would notify her employer of her behavior and her arrest.


Of course I would go the civil route first, but as I specified, if I felt it was clear the intent was to do DEADLY harm that changes the rules a bit.
It's tough to bring suit and level charges from the grave, and I am in no rush to find out the answer to the celestial questions of the universe.
 
2013-08-26 02:16:14 PM  

glmorrs1: Now, do you have a citation for this?


First result in a search

Also see pro-life feminist if you want more
 
2013-08-26 02:19:09 PM  

HeadLever: So I take it you have the inability to discern the difference between ovulation and spermatogenesis and the 'begining of a unique human life'.  If so, then I guess you were really not cut out for understading the other side of this issue.

/just trying to help you understand
//looks like you really don't want to


No. You're being a pedantic ass who, every time his argument is pointed out to be silly, resorts to the "Omg fallacy!" route rather than explain why that particular retort is not a good example.

You're not going to "help me understand" anything, and you're doing a piss-poor job of anything resembling promoting your beliefs on abortion. All you're doing is trying to defend the belief that "human life", not JUST the biological life processes, begin upon fertilization of egg, and you're arguing it from the ethical point of a potential human life.

Again. Why are you not out there, if this is true, campaigning for IVF clinic administrators to be charged with mass murder when they destroy fertilized cells after five years in the deep freeze?
 
2013-08-26 02:20:19 PM  

letrole: My surname is Le Trôle.

I reckon the problem here is that I'm simply expressing opinions that cannot be disputed without ad hominem


More copy-paste, Bevets?  What, you think there are some virgins here that don't know your surname joke already?
Time for a new alt name, your shtick is old and tired, trole-bot.  Anyone who's seen more than one thread with you already knows everything you will ever say.
 
2013-08-26 02:21:20 PM  

HeadLever: glmorrs1: Now, do you have a citation for this?

First result in a search

Also see pro-life feminist if you want more


See their child support page. SecularProLife is a Men's Rights Front. And they also spend a suspicious amount of time at religious events.
 
2013-08-26 02:29:27 PM  
letrole: My surname is Le Trôle.

ReverendJasen: More copy-paste, Bevets? What, you think there are some virgins here that don't know your surname joke already?


I find your petulence to be endearing, and your simplicity to be quite engaging.
 
2013-08-26 02:32:09 PM  
I don't understand why people get upset about the picture of an aborted fetus on protesters' signs. It is the end result of an abortion. If you are pro-choice, then you should be able to accept that reality and live with it. A woman may have a right to an abortion, but there is no right to be free from the knowledge of what an abortion entails and what an aborted fetus looks like.

/reluctantly pro-choice because prohibition doesn't work
//and because I don't have the right to tell you what to do
///can we agree that reducing the number of abortions would be a good thing?
 
2013-08-26 02:33:15 PM  
Who cares whether she is pro-choice or pro-abortion?!
SHE IS 78!! IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE AT THIS POINT!!
 
2013-08-26 02:35:48 PM  
Is it just me, or did anyone notice that there was nothing about where this took place?  I assume Iowa, since the puncher was a U. of Iowa student.  Another proud moment for the Foorth Estaite.
 
2013-08-26 02:36:09 PM  

letrole: Abortion is Murder a choice.

/DERP

 
2013-08-26 02:36:54 PM  

hardinparamedic: route rather than explain why that particular retort is not a good example.


My original statement is pretty much a basic tenant of the pro-life side.  You are trying to make it something that it is not (sperm or egg = beginning of a unique human life) indicates you basic lack of seeing this agrument for what it is.  If you want to argue in good faith, then please continue.  Otherwise, we can leave it at that.

All you're doing is trying to defend the belief that "human life", not JUST the biological life processes, begin upon fertilization of egg, and you're arguing it from the ethical point of a potential human life.

Somewhat yes.  However, I have already discussed the dichotomy of this earlier.  The beginning of a human life is a topic that is not well defined and is very hotly debated.  It is separate from the beginning of a unique human life. However, one must come before the other.

Again. Why are you not out there, if this is true, campaigning for IVF clinic administrators to be charged with mass murder when they destroy fertilized cells after five years in the deep freeze?

I have not indicated where I stand on this issue.  Any pretense of where I stand on this topic is entirely an assumption by you.  Just understanding both sides of the issue does not indicate where my line in the sand is located.
 
2013-08-26 02:38:28 PM  

hardinparamedic: See their child support page

SecularProLife is a Men's Rights Front.

Which has nothing to do with my point about it being secular.
 
2013-08-26 02:42:18 PM  
I'm late to this thread, so don't want to read it all.

For anyone arguing that abortion goes against God's wishes I would just like to say that God is Pro-Choice...
 
2013-08-26 02:54:09 PM  

cman: reillan: cman: cman: 1. He assaulted a woman
2. A senior citizen
3. Who did nothing to him

If there is anyone who should be shunned by society it is this assbag

To elaborate...

I don't give two shiats about why he did it. All I care about is the fact that he did do it. No matter what the circumstances are YOU DONT PUNCH A FRIGGIN SENIOR CITIZEN!

You're right, of course, but I reserve the right to experience Schadenfreude when it happens to someone as repugnant as this woman.

Repugnant? Do you know her personally?


Nope, but protesting to limit women's rights in this matter is enough to know to tell me I think she is repugnant.

She disagrees with you on abortion and she is labeled "repugnant".

Yes.

 This hyperpartisan bullshiat is bullshiat and it needs to stop.


This isn't partisan, it is basic ideology I disagree with. I don't feel she has the right to force others to make very personal decisions regarding their medical care in the case of pregnancy. She thinks she does. That makes her repugnant in my opinion.
 
2013-08-26 02:54:18 PM  

HeadLever: Which has nothing to do with my point about it being secular.


It has everything to do with the fact it has a hidden agenda. And the fact that it spends a lot of time in religious activities leads me to believe it is an example of "The lady doth protest too much".
 
2013-08-26 02:54:23 PM  
One of my issues is that the Pro-Life movement has completely ruined the term. I'm pro-life, in that I want more people to live than to die. I don't want abortions to happen, but if it's better in the long run, who am I to judge?
 
2013-08-26 02:55:21 PM  

EvilEgg: Good lord, you farking idiot.  FOX isn't going to let this one go.  The only thing I will be able to say is some people are idiots.  Then the anti-choice people will feel as though they won the argument.


So someone you agree with did a bad thing and some people you don't agree with (and don't like) reported it. There is nothing you can say about this without coming out looking like a twat. Know when to keep mouth closed.
 
2013-08-26 02:55:48 PM  
How many picketing senior citizens can you punch for it to equal shooting a doctor in the head in church?
What's the exchange rate?
 
2013-08-26 02:56:04 PM  

HeadLever: The beginning of a human life is a topic that is not well defined and is very hotly debated.  It is separate from the beginning of a unique human life. However, one must come before the other.


Medical and Biological Ethicists have done both for quite some time. The only realm in which it is "very hotly debated" is the realm created by anti-abortion groups and their agenda.
 
2013-08-26 02:56:13 PM  

HeadLever: The beginning of a human life is a topic that is not well defined and is very hotly debated. It is separate from the beginning of a unique human life. However, one must come before the other.


Let me clarifiy this point somewhat just to stave off any digression into semantics.  The beginning of human life is the topic which is not really well known and is hotly debated.  Is it at fertilization?  Is it at embedment?  Is it when the fetus can be viable outside the mother?  is it when it starts to respond to external stimulii?  Is it when natural childbirth takes place.  These are all real questions that cannot be dismissed in an offhand manner.

The beginning of a unique human life is basically fertilization and the biological construction of an embryo (the two halves have come together) and is not necessarily the beginning of human life.
 
2013-08-26 03:02:28 PM  

hardinparamedic: HeadLever: The real argument of the issue is when do you feel you need to apply protections on this 'unique human life'.  Some say at ony at birth and others say before.

The "some" that you refer to take a 3500 year old book as the canon dogma of our Universe.


Actually that 3500 year old book puts more value on a baby that has taken a breath than anything in the womb. The OT gives many example of this. Hell, Adam wasn't a man (just a lump of clay) until the "breath of life" was breathed into him.

Jewish culture seems to differentiate between abortion and murder. To cause a miscarriage in another requires a monetary payment, making it clear it isn't a capital offense.

Modern fundies have equated abortion to murder even though there is no basis in their religion to do so.
 
2013-08-26 03:06:20 PM  

letrole: Abortion is Murder.


Statement is Unsupported And Unnecessarily Capitalized.
 
2013-08-26 03:08:27 PM  

gnosis301: JDAT: mooseyfate: JDAT: Children want you to hold their hand,

Not take their life.

Who has been murdering children wholesale and not batting an eye?


[610x273 from http://www.toomanyaborted.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/half_bubble_p lannedParenthood.png image 610x273]

Holding the hand of a fetus in utero will more than likely kill it.


Plus, most pregnant women seem to freak out a lot when you try it...

hardinparamedic: The "some" that you refer to take a 3500 year old book as the canon dogma of our Universe.


And, they don't seem to do a very good job of even reading/understand it... Because, it's pretty clear that not only are unborn fetuses not people, but even newborns under a month old don't count (presumably due to lots of instances of newborn death being fairly common back then)...

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16


Also, killing an unborn child wasn't considered murder, but just some simple assault you took care of by paying off the husband, as long as it didn't result in the death of the woman too...

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23


For a group that claims to follow that ancient holy book, they sure don't seem to do a very good job of it...
 
2013-08-26 03:11:28 PM  

hardinparamedic: Medical and Biological Ethicists have done both for quite some time. The only realm in which it is "very hotly debated" is the realm created by anti-abortion groups and their agenda.


Show me the consensus of said determination.
 
2013-08-26 03:17:52 PM  

HeadLever: The beginning of a unique human life is basically fertilization and the biological construction of an embryo (the two halves have come together) and is not necessarily the beginning of human life.


I...uh...huh??

I think you're using terms in a very confusing and nonsensical manner... If you contend something is the "beginning of a unique human life", then it also must logically be the "beginning of a human life"... I mean, all you've done is taken the word "unique" out... If the former thing is a "unique" example of X, then it also must logically be an example of X (with unspecified uniqueness)...

I really can't fathom where you're trying to go with this bizarre line of argument...
 
2013-08-26 03:19:53 PM  
Yes, aborting a fetus is killing another person. There is nothing wrong with that. People need to get it through their heads that it is a fact of life and should be done in a safe (for the mother) and clean environment. I don't get the rhetoric about "my body" or "it's just a bug in my uterus, not a person". Hell no, s/he hasn't spoken a word or gone to law school, whatever. But you killed. And that's all well and good. Many, perhaps a majority, of cases it's in the best interest of the parents involved. Men should have a right to force the abortion too (kidding) or at the very least be exonerated from a life of child support if they declare it at the time of conception. Hay, it's your body, you want that kid- have it.

It's not murder, it's a choice. Some cases for it are better than others, but it's a choice.

/really liked the comment about 100% of conceptions end in death
 
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