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(Komo)   Health Officials have confirmed a child infected with measles was at a Seattle area restaurant last weekend. EVERYBODY PANIC   (komonews.com) divider line 122
    More: PSA, measles  
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3598 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Aug 2013 at 7:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-25 11:55:39 PM
dogblue: As far as your insinuation that I wasn't taking the situation seriously with my newborn and was relying on the 'luck of the draw' -- WTF? My 'not necessarily a bad thing' was sarcasm that the (now ex-) inlaws couldn't visit. But whatever. I'm glad I could fill your disproportinate internet outrage quota for the day. Come back tomorrow. I'm sure I've had another life experience that you can wiki deny.
 
2013-08-25 11:56:53 PM

halotosis: shtychkn: Isn't it only a threat to others who were not vaccinated?

Depends, there are people out there who have been vaccinated in the past who may no longer have immunity.  For example, I have Lymphoma (blood cancer), at some point, it might be necessary to have a bone marrow transplant.  Essentially that means erradicating my immune system, creating a new one.  This means resetting every single immunity I ever had back to zero and you can't get re vaccinated for at least a year afterward.  Someones little monster could be the death of someone like me.


I am in your boat too (autoimmune disease and my meds shut down my immune system intentionally). My hubby caught whooping cough from another firefighter who was exposed in a call. He had to leave the house for two weeks because I couldn't risk exposure....all because this lady didn't vaccinate her kids and then allowed her relatives from South America to visit. Eleven firefighters were infected.
 
2013-08-25 11:57:20 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: SilentStrider: Get your kids vaccinated dumbfarks.

[i1214.photobucket.com image 400x155]

Get your kids vaccinated, you credulous, arrogant f*ckwits.

 
2013-08-26 12:00:56 AM

ChubbyTiger: ecmoRandomNumbers: If an infant outbreak can be traced to that kid, the parents should be arrested. And sterilized.

I believe that your foremost sail is cut in a manner which is pleasing to my eye.


Yea, verily, I do most heartily concur.
 
2013-08-26 12:20:45 AM
I'm down there all the time -- wasn't there that day, though. I wonder if the kid goes to Salmon Bay? If he does, they're lucky the measles broke out now instead of next week or there could have been a small epidemic -- Salmon Bay is ridiculously undervaccinated.
 
2013-08-26 12:46:56 AM

Gecko Gingrich: ChubbyTiger: ecmoRandomNumbers: If an infant outbreak can be traced to that kid, the parents should be arrested. And sterilized.

I believe that your foremost sail is cut in a manner which is pleasing to my eye.

Dude. This isn't "Casual Encounters".


I think he's from Britland
They talk like that there
Sad really
 
2013-08-26 01:34:23 AM
I say this all the time... Let's pretend for a minute that anti-vaxers are correct and that vaccines cause autism.

The rise in autism rates mostly includes the high functioning variety, like my daughter. Typically these kids will be fine but be a bit overly sensitive to light, sound, touch, etc. They might not have a good understanding of social norms. As a result, crowds are typically not going to be a great place for an autistic child, but most who are high functioning will learn to adapt in time. It might take some effort, but it's possible.

They might also have some trouble with language development. Mine is a bit behind her peers, enough so that she has to have extra help with it, and her handwriting is atrocious, but you should see her math scores. Many autistic children are very bright despite whether or not they might have language development issues. And like above, they might eventually catch up.

Yes, the extreme cases do happen, but that's not the bulk of autism diagnoses today. The bulk of diagnoses would be the high functioning variety that wouldn't have even been diagnosed 10-20 years ago. And if you're correct and vaccines are responsible for all or most of those those high functioning autism cases, then here's what you're telling parents:

You're telling parents that it's better to risk killing your children than to have them be uncomfortable in a crowd. You're telling them that it's better to risk that they have a horrible disability as a result of a preventable illness than for them to have to go to speech and occupational therapy for a few years.

So even if you're right, it'd still be a hard sell to tell me that a risk of death is a better choice for my child than a risk of having to have her placed in a smaller classroom.
 
2013-08-26 01:40:47 AM

MutantMotherMouse: dogblue: MutantMotherMouse: I caught measles from the vaccination.

Uh, no. This is the kind of anecdotal stuff that leads people to give up real science, thus can lead to outbreaks in the first place.

"The booster I had to have before I could be released with our newborn. I couldn't believe I needed a booster as I had traveled extensively and had every immunization under the sun, more than once. Oddly the doctors assured me our baby was immune, but my mother-in-law caught them from me and my pregnant sister-in-law could not visit until we were well. None of which was necessarily a bad thing."

"[T]raveled extensively" --Oh! Really. Interesting. This is just a hypothesis, but, I bet you got it overseas before you showed any signs.  You may be suffering from one of the very rare vaccine failures, or partial vaccine failures. Thus you got it despite everything that an individual could do. Just because you have had vaccines "more than once" does not mean you have been properly immunized. Read the CDC guidelines.

This is why herd immunity is so important.

You cannot catch measles from its vaccine, same for the flu vaccine. Read and educate yourself:   http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/a-look-at-each-v a ccine/mmr-measles-mumps-and-rubella-vaccine.html
It is a very "bad thing" for babies to be exposed to measles, of course. I am glad that *this time* there was no tragedy. Don't rely on luck of the draw and ask your doctor if she thinks the vaccines failed for you.

I'm not sure what of my comment set you off, but I, in fact, had an outbreak of measles due to the vaccine. My OB/GYN had never it had it happen before in her 17+ years of practice, but 5-15% of adults immunized breakout with a measles rash and other measles symptoms (fever, etc). In my early 20's, I was a page away from filling an immunization record book. Obviously, I'm pro-vaccination.

As far as our newborn, I was terrified of transmitting the disease. Especially as I was nursing her. ...


 It's not unheard of for people to get symptoms of diseases they are vaccinated for. I don't know the exact reason behind it,  but I figured that if your body normally has, say, a fever, to deal with Virus X, then if you get a vaccine for Virus X your body might give you a fever because it thinks you have Virus X.

 Also with live viruses there is always the tiny infinitesimal chance that you could actually get sick. MMR is one such vaccine that still uses a live virus I believe.
 
2013-08-26 01:41:50 AM

supayoda: I say this all the time... Let's pretend for a minute that anti-vaxers are correct and that vaccines cause autism.

The rise in autism rates mostly includes the high functioning variety, like my daughter. Typically these kids will be fine but be a bit overly sensitive to light, sound, touch, etc. They might not have a good understanding of social norms. As a result, crowds are typically not going to be a great place for an autistic child, but most who are high functioning will learn to adapt in time. It might take some effort, but it's possible.

They might also have some trouble with language development. Mine is a bit behind her peers, enough so that she has to have extra help with it, and her handwriting is atrocious, but you should see her math scores. Many autistic children are very bright despite whether or not they might have language development issues. And like above, they might eventually catch up.

Yes, the extreme cases do happen, but that's not the bulk of autism diagnoses today. The bulk of diagnoses would be the high functioning variety that wouldn't have even been diagnosed 10-20 years ago. And if you're correct and vaccines are responsible for all or most of those those high functioning autism cases, then here's what you're telling parents:

You're telling parents that it's better to risk killing your children than to have them be uncomfortable in a crowd. You're telling them that it's better to risk that they have a horrible disability as a result of a preventable illness than for them to have to go to speech and occupational therapy for a few years.

So even if you're right, it'd still be a hard sell to tell me that a risk of death is a better choice for my child than a risk of having to have her placed in a smaller classroom.


IT IS! MY CHILD MUST BE PERFECT WITH NARY A FLAW! DEATH IS PREFERABLE TO PEOPLE THINKING MY CHILD IS LESS THAN PERFECTION ITSELF!! I WOULD SOONER SEE MY SNOWFLAKE IN AN EARLY GRAVE THAN LIVE WITH THE NOTION SHE MIGHT BE THE EPITOME OF WONDERFULNESS I EXPECT HER TO BE!!!!

I'm glad your daughter is doing okay. She'll probably be fine by the time she's ready to be an adult.
 
2013-08-26 03:51:44 AM
Why are people who've already been vaccinated worried?

Isn't the whole point of the vaccination to help your body resist infection. Doctors work with sick people all day and they stay pretty healthy thanks to basic hygiene and their shots. Why wouldn't the same be true of you?
 
2013-08-26 05:04:47 AM
 
2013-08-26 07:47:28 AM

doglover: Why are people who've already been vaccinated worried?

Isn't the whole point of the vaccination to help your body resist infection. Doctors work with sick people all day and they stay pretty healthy thanks to basic hygiene and their shots. Why wouldn't the same be true of you?


If you read the whole thread, you'd know your question was asked and answered already. A few times.
 
2013-08-26 09:45:34 AM

Gyrfalcon: She'll probably be fine by the time she's ready to be an adult.


She should be. We've worked with her a lot over the summer and so far she's doing okay in school this year. The worst that happened last year is that she would break down into tears (read: not a tantrum, just crying) if they unexpectedly changed the schedule on her. The teacher would explain that they had to move on to something else, but she didn't quite understand that they'd come back to whatever she was doing. That was corrected once the teacher figured out how to reword her explanations. Kiddo has a hard time grasping time concepts in particular, but that's easily fixed by showing her when something will happen on a calendar or a checklist-style schedule.
 
2013-08-26 10:34:26 AM
Isn't it only a threat to others who were not vaccinated?

Anit-vaxx bullshiat alert. ^^^^

Dude, getting vaccinated is like buying a fire extinguisher. It can help you put out _a_ fire, but it cannot help you put out _every_ fire _every_ time. Vaccination doesn't confer "immunity" it confers "resistance" -- e.g. an anthrax vaccination doesn't cause the white powder to bound from your skin or flee the room when you enter.

An unvaccinated person gets sicker and spews more pathogens than a vaccinated person because they had "several days to burn" before their immune system could mount an effective response. So vaccinations "prevent dis ease" by letting someone fight off the infection before becoming communicable or noticeably symptomatic.

But say someone brought their kid into a restaurant spewing diseases. [Their vaccinated parents are also probably lightly infected but not symptomatic because _they_ have the protection they are denying their kids.] And say this disease fountain sits next to a guy who is taking a break from tending to his infant son whom he will return to in moments and infect directly with the spume of the burning disease monger...? Or say he's about to walk back across the street to see his cancer afflicted loved one, or say he has HIV and doesn't know he's got no T-Cells left?

This movie will explain all this so simply even a child could understand it -- the guy's voice is pretty annoying, but he's not wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRclbfK5q08
 
2013-08-26 10:50:18 AM
On "Boosters". Vaccinations don't confer "immunity" they confer "resistance". They do so by exposing your body to something "very like" a particular disease pathogen. Sometimes this is the weakened disease itself and sometimes its just some proteins the pathogen it has on its surface.

The goal is to get your body to recognize the "bad thing" and so trigger a full immune response to the "very like" substance. Your body will collect up the disease, compute and antibody and some of the "B cells" that were involved in that antibody creation will end up memorizing that anti-body and then just hanging around.

When those B cells finally die your body has forgotten how to make that antibody and its like you never had the vaccine. So we give boosters to cause those B cells to wake up and rush off to make more antibodies _and_ brand new B cells with the blueprint in them.

Some people just wont respond to a vaccine, and different people lose those B cells at different rates.

In all cases the vaccine doesn't "prevent" the disease, it allows your body to fight off the disease from day one instead of giving the disease free reign to multiply for all the time it takes your body to detect the pathogen, compute an antibody, and manufacture the B cells -- all of which must happen before the first T cell can kill the first copy of the pathogen.

So vaccinations are like fire extinguishers. They let you put the fire out while its small, as opposed to having to wait around for the fire department because you couldn't get your garden hose hooked up and too the fire before it was too big for a garden hose to put out. But that extinguisher can only do so much. Repeated exposures and really serious exposures can overwhelm the extinguisher. An extinguisher that's too old will not have much, if any, charge left.

One of the many ways that anti-vaccine people damage the world is their faulty logic based on magical thinking. They use the "if it didn't work like magic it must not work at all" line of "reasoning" to make a lot of really improper and anti-factual observations.

(can you tell that this is a pet peeve of mine?)
 
2013-08-26 11:05:58 AM
As to why you can get some of the symptoms of the disease from a vaccine has to do with some very simple things.

(1) the vaccine triggers your immune system. That's what it's for. It is your immune system that is responsible for many/most effects of most diseases. So the shot is doing the same thing to your immune system -- but not your tissues -- as the disease. So for instance the flu shot might raise your temperature but it _wont_ go destroying your lung tissue like the real flu.

(2) we give small repeated doses of things that your immune system really hates so that the symptoms remain "sub clinical" (unnoticeable) in most people.

(3) diseases actually do _damage_ when they _eat_ (in the case of bacteria), _shiat_ (also bacteria), or when they _reproduce_ (in the case of viruses). Since the stuff in vaccines do not eat, shiat, or reproduce -- or in the case of attenuated viral pathogens they do very little reproduction, the vaccine cannot do the damage that the disease does.

The normal observable result of a vaccine is a crying child and some soreness at the site of the injection because that's where the immune system is doing all its learning. Sometimes the vaccinated person gets a fever or overall blech because their body over-reacts a little.

All of this is desirable because if your body didn't react it the vaccine would be about as useful as tap water (or homoeopathic solvents as the kids have taken to calling tap water these days).
 
2013-08-26 01:09:38 PM

Zemog: FrancoFile:
I've never been asked for proof of vaccination when traveling to Europe...

The Europeans used to assume the this was a first-world country.

/whether they LIKED us was a different matter entirely


Europe has terrible vaccination rates now.  Herd immunity is basically gone from there.  Measles epidemics now happen on a regular basis.
 
2013-08-26 01:15:07 PM

Shazam999: Zemog: FrancoFile:
I've never been asked for proof of vaccination when traveling to Europe...

The Europeans used to assume the this was a first-world country.

/whether they LIKED us was a different matter entirely

Europe has terrible vaccination rates now.  Herd immunity is basically gone from there.  Measles epidemics now happen on a regular basis.


Andrew Wakefield is a direct, proximate cause of this. The fact they haven't charged him with negligent homicide for his falsified research and intent to defraud the European Community boggles my mind.
 
2013-08-26 01:25:39 PM

hardinparamedic: Shazam999: Zemog: FrancoFile:
I've never been asked for proof of vaccination when traveling to Europe...

The Europeans used to assume the this was a first-world country.

/whether they LIKED us was a different matter entirely

Europe has terrible vaccination rates now.  Herd immunity is basically gone from there.  Measles epidemics now happen on a regular basis.

Andrew Wakefield is a direct, proximate cause of this. The fact they haven't charged him with negligent homicide for his falsified research and intent to defraud the European Community boggles my mind.


What we need is a nice large polio epidemic to rid the world of their brethren.
 
2013-08-26 01:35:17 PM

Shazam999: What we need is a nice large polio epidemic to rid the world of their brethren.


Whelp, time to go buy shares in CareFusion and Airon USA
 
2013-08-26 02:20:34 PM

shtychkn: Isn't it only a threat to others who were not vaccinated?


I'm no Dr. but my understanding is that vaccination is not 100%.  That is, they improve your chances of survival by training your immune system how to fight it off.  But that doesn't mean you wouldn't get infected.
 
2013-08-26 05:57:27 PM

Wrencher: On the subject of autism, I ran across this recently.

MIND Institute, Yale study finds abnormalities in the placentas of children at risk for autism


This--time to trot out the New Obligatory Statement Re Autism and Vaccines:

Vaccines don't cause autism.  It is pretty much in fact IMPOSSIBLE for vaccines to cause autism unless you give certain live vaccines to mom VERY early in pregnancy, and they don't DO that (pretty much all live vaccines are very explicitly contraindicated for pregnant and possibly-pregnant women).

What causes autism (that is not definitively linked to some OTHER genetic disorder--there are a number of genetic diseases that can cause an ASD-like syndrome) is what is referred to as a "neuronal differentiation disorder".  Basically what this means in layman's terms is that the layers of the brain don't separate out quite right and there's too much linkage between neurons (which causes a whole lot of crosstalk and feedback, which explains why the kid gets overstimulated when going out to eat and having a meltdown because he's pretty much literally having a sensory BSoD at that point).

We have also found out the same problems with cell differentiation and layer-separation that occur in the brains of people with autism also occur in the placentas of infants that are diagnosed with autism (and the correlation is strong enough that this may in future be an Early Intervention Test).

The placenta is the FIRST organ that develops in an embryo, and if something shows up in the placenta it's showing up everywhere (which is why some kids with autism also have gastrointestinal issues and the like).  This also means that whatever has gone sideways is something genetic.

We also know that the same problems in the placentas of infants ultimately diagnosed with autism also occur in certain chromosomal disorders, and we know that there is a definite correlation of increase of autism rates in children conceived by fathers over the age of 40--just as there's a higher rate of chromosomal disorders in women who have babies after the age of 40.

Put more bluntly: It's not the vaccines, it's your own scrambled eggs and swimmers that cause autism.  Don't want autistic kids?  Aim for becoming Teen Pregnant and try to avoid the radon and nuclear fallout.  Failing that, consider putting some funds in prenatal diagnosis and viable tactics in gene therapy.

And just to fark with antivaxxers even MORE--one of the whole reasons we vaccinate kids against childhood illnesses is to build up herd immunity so that the moms (who CAN'T get the jab when they're pregnant) won't risk catching rubella or measles or other diseases that can essentially cause severe prenatal brain damage in their fetuses.  Severe prenatal brain damage, I'll note, that tends to manifest a lot like something we'd classify as autism as well as other fun things like deaf-blindness, general farkage of sensory awareness, and intellectual disabilities...

We also vaccinate kids against some diseases to keep them from getting postnatal brain damage that can manifest a lot like something we'd classify as autism.  It used to be until quite recently that there was a major risk that babies would contract meningitis--what used to be known as "brain fever"--and would end up essentially autistic AND Counting To Potato if they were very, very lucky (and just as often would end up dead OR less counting to potato and more being potato, as in "babby would end up in a persistent vegetative state").  We've knocked the hell out of the most common causes of meningitis in kids thanks to routine vaccination (not just for chickenpox and MMR, but HIb in particular--a common bacterial form of meningitis--and many countries have introduced vaccination for other types of meningitis as well).

There's also the whole "There is shiat that can kill a babby too young to get the jab and can kill even adults" stuff, too.  Whooping cough, of all things, is making one hell of a comeback thanks to parents who don't get the jab because they're scared the kid will react poorly to the pertussis component of the DTaP vaccine...and, well, whooping cough is starting to kill babies again like it did in the 1920s and 1930s, and it's starting to throw folks with respiratory conditions like asthma in hospital ICUs.  Whooping cough still sucks ass even if you're a healthy, non-asthmatic adult; the Chinese call it the "hundred-day cough" because that's how long it sticks around, and you basically get to experience the same sorts of gasping, wheezing, coughing-till-you-spew goodness us asthmatics get to experience during a bad asthma attack--with the difference that (unlike us LUCKY motherfarkers with asthma) you can't knock out a bad whooping cough hacking-jag with albuterol or other rescue inhalers.  Nope, you just get to cough until you wheeze or puke or piss yourself or pass out.  But hey, the shiat can't cause autism if it makes you cough yourself into incontinent unconsciousness or kills babby, can it?

/srsly, folks, vaccinate your kids.  Yes, even the autistic ones.  You only get exemptions if there's an actual doctor-confirmed medical reason to defer the shots (and there ARE some of those).  Not philosophy.  Not "I don't want to accept that my swimmers are gerfickt and that's why my kid has teh autism".  Not "Jeebus will prevent us from getting sick and will heal us miraculously if we give half our pre-tax income to the megachurch". 
//if any of you non-vaxxing acolytes of Nurgle give me something I end up in hospital for because I have asthma and the drugs that let me farking BREATHE also cause a mild immunocompromise, I reserve the right to send you farkers the part of the bill my insurance won't pay.  Best hope it's not during the full-cost donut-hole! :D
 
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