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(Doctors Without Borders)   "...the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events...strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent." The 3600 patients, that is   (doctorswithoutborders.org) divider line 113
    More: Scary, MSF, photos, event planning, medical equipment, Doctors Without Borders, international humanitarian law, health center, Syrian refugees  
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8830 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2013 at 5:24 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-24 02:40:10 PM  
There's very little question here. Assad is too confident in the ability of the fog of war to conceal his hand, and Obama's earlier reticence in response to previous chemical weapon allegations has led him to overplay his hand.

If we can get U.N. inspectors in there, the rest is a foregone conclusion.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-08-24 03:37:54 PM  

omnibus_necanda_sunt: There's very little question here. Assad is too confident in the ability of the fog of war to conceal his hand, and Obama's earlier reticence in response to previous chemical weapon allegations has led him to overplay his hand.

If we can get U.N. inspectors in there, the rest is a foregone conclusion.


What that the UN inspectors will get to experience a chemical attack up close and personal?

If Obama does do anything I hope he limits it to airstrikes or cruise missile attacks or something like that.  I don't think we need to invade Syria.
 
FNG [TotalFark]
2013-08-24 05:12:00 PM  
I guess the only thing I can think of is farkhead is counting on Russia to bail his ass out when we're about to start blasting him and his evil band of crazies.
 
2013-08-24 05:26:09 PM  
Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.
 
2013-08-24 05:34:20 PM  
thegamingliberty.com
Neurotoxin? was it deadly?
 
2013-08-24 05:36:09 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


MSF is not a reliable source?
 
2013-08-24 05:36:12 PM  

omnibus_necanda_sunt: There's very little question here. Assad is too confident in the ability of the fog of war to conceal his hand, and Obama's earlier reticence in response to previous chemical weapon allegations has led him to overplay his hand.

If we can get U.N. inspectors in there, the rest is a foregone conclusion.


even then isnt there the possibility that the rebels or even an allied group accidentally or intentionally set one off ... fog of war and all
 
2013-08-24 05:37:16 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


How is epidemiological evidence from Doctors Without Borders not a reliable source? Sure they said they can't tell for sure, but this isn't the same smoke and mirrors type of argument from Iraq.
 
2013-08-24 05:37:50 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


Did you just call Doctors Without Borders an unreliable source for statistics on numbers of treated patients?

The problem has been defined, the perpetrators have not.
 
2013-08-24 05:38:02 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.

 I'm not sure if you are serious in your assertion of Syria > WMDs.  You are either a very nuanced trouble-maker (troll is too overused) or younger than 25.  WMD-gate was so very transparently bullshiat to instigate our permanent presence for the next century.  This is people dying horrifically.
 
2013-08-24 05:38:28 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


By what definition? This guy is actively slaughtering tens of thousands of people and there is every reason to believe he will continue to do so. Saddam had stopped murder of this scale years before due to a previous invasion and bombing campaign. So it can't be by an ethical or morale metric you are talking about.

I genuinely interested on how acting on this information would be a bigger mistake then believing Iraq had WMDS (and everything that followed that conclusion).
 
2013-08-24 05:39:08 PM  
Only 3600? It's like they're not even trying.
 
2013-08-24 05:40:28 PM  
Do any of Syria's neighbors give a rat's ass? Let's see a show of hands.
 
2013-08-24 05:40:48 PM  
This is your hard earned tax money at work, America. Your masters are funding Al Qaeda in their chemical war on the people of Syria.
 
2013-08-24 05:40:52 PM  
Don't blame me, I was on vacation (again) -  Obama.
 
2013-08-24 05:45:02 PM  

llevrok: Don't blame me, I was on vacation (again) -  Obama.


Nevermind that the President has taken fewer vacation days than any of the last 3 presidents. Don't let those facts stop you.
 
2013-08-24 05:46:15 PM  
I don't care anymore. Let the barbarians butcher each other....
 
2013-08-24 05:48:53 PM  
NOT, OUR, PROBLEM. STAY THE fark OUT OF THIS. Do not invade another middle east disaster on the basis of WMD's again. It did not go well with iraq and it wont go well with syria. How quickly we forget history and desire to repeat it.
 
2013-08-24 05:49:25 PM  
We gotta BANG BANG BANG those drums of war!

We gotta BANG BANG BANG those drums of war!

We gotta BANG BANG BANG those drums of war!


Let's see if Obama gets all indignant and lets slip the dogs of war!

If he dOESN'T, he's not a MAN.
 
2013-08-24 05:50:47 PM  

mark12A: I don't care anymore. Let the barbarians butcher each other....


Don't act like you ever cared in the first place. We know your stance.
 
2013-08-24 05:52:54 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Derp, extra nutty flavor.


Oh shut up. I'm the first one to say we need to take action against a dictator using chemical weapons against his people in a genocidal manner, but the LAST thing the US needs to do is invade a country with ground troops, and occupy it for ANOTHER 10 years in the Middle East.

Let the EU and African Union pull some farking police actions for a while.
 
2013-08-24 05:53:15 PM  

mark12A: I don't care anymore. Let the barbarians butcher each other....


I really can't help but agree.
All my life, it's been the same old crap.

I might even approve of a walking nuclear bombardment across numerous cities in that region, just to get everyone's attention.
 
2013-08-24 05:54:49 PM  
A bunch of groups who hate us are fighting each other. Take out whatever chemical weapons stores we have intel on, but otherwise stay the living fark out of it.
 
2013-08-24 05:55:06 PM  
Does Syria have a lot of oil? The screw 'em.

USA
USA
USA
 
2013-08-24 05:55:45 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: I might even approve of a walking nuclear bombardment across numerous cities in that region, just to get everyone's attention.


hehe...

That would definitely be an attention getter.
If you're gonna go, go big.
 
2013-08-24 05:57:13 PM  

talkertopc: MSF is not a reliable source?


MSF could not determine who released the chemical agents. Until we can be sure of who did this it would be very foolish to make any assumptions one way or the other. Assad has no reason to gas those people considering his army's position in the civil war right now. The rebels however do have some motivation to make Assad look as bad as possible and get some outside assistance. The view is too muddy right now to get entangled in someone else's civil war, especially when both sides are not exactly paragons of virtue.
 
2013-08-24 05:57:42 PM  

vpb: omnibus_necanda_sunt: There's very little question here. Assad is too confident in the ability of the fog of war to conceal his hand, and Obama's earlier reticence in response to previous chemical weapon allegations has led him to overplay his hand.

If we can get U.N. inspectors in there, the rest is a foregone conclusion.

What that the UN inspectors will get to experience a chemical attack up close and personal?

If Obama does do anything I hope he limits it to airstrikes or cruise missile attacks or something like that.  I don't think we need to invade Syria.


Like in Lybia? I hope so too. Best way to intervene, IMO.
 
2013-08-24 05:59:37 PM  
Assuming you are just targeting enemy soldiers, what is the difference between shooting them and gassing them? Same end result.
 
2013-08-24 06:01:46 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: mark12A: I don't care anymore. Let the barbarians butcher each other....

I really can't help but agree.
All my life, it's been the same old crap.

I might even approve of a walking nuclear bombardment across numerous cities in that region, just to get everyone's attention.


Who would be the barbarians then?

/agreed that we don't need another ground war, lob some tomahawks at some key targets, and enforce a no fly zone, it's the least we could do.
//incirlik turkey is close, let our flyboys get some stick time.
 
2013-08-24 06:02:12 PM  
MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX: "OMG! We almost have no wars to fight! How will we continue rape the American taxpayers to support our lavish war profiteering lifestyles??? Quick, get the Senators we've bought-and-paid-for to get us a war in Syria!"

AMERICAN CITIZENS: "Why don't you get into the business of building American bridges, schools, alternative energy, and other infrastructure here at home?"

MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX: "Socialist traitors!"
 
2013-08-24 06:03:55 PM  
Just what you'd want. Russia & Chinese military aggression in response. Yep. Won't happen. US can't do anything militarily.
 
2013-08-24 06:05:29 PM  
The Administration can't even decide if Eygpt had a coup.
 
2013-08-24 06:05:46 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


img802.imageshack.us
 
2013-08-24 06:14:11 PM  
Something they ate?
 
2013-08-24 06:16:50 PM  

Radioactive Ass: . The view is too muddy right now to get entangled in someone else's civil war, especially when both sides are not exactly paragons of virtue.


It is.  They are not.

Radioactive Ass: Assad has no reason to gas those people considering his army's position in the civil war right now


Other than that he hates their guts, of course.  He has killed civilians many times over the past two years using conventional weapons.

Radioactive Ass: The rebels however do have some motivation to make Assad look as bad as possible and get some outside assistance


Assuming that the patients seen at the three hospitals DWB supports were sickened by the same chemical agent at the same time (a justifiable assumption I think) and assuming that that chemical agent was a toxic chemical intended by whoever released it to kill people, I think it would be quite an achievement for the rebels to bring into Syria (without being detected) enough of that toxic chemical to sicken 3600 people at once (and to kill 355 of them), to train their personnel how to handle and deliver that toxic chemical without endangering themselves (so that they could get away with their cunning plan undetected), and to resist the temptation to use that same toxic chemical against the forces of the Syrian government.  In short, I think the chances that the rebels did this are infinitesimal.
 
2013-08-24 06:28:53 PM  

talkertopc: Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.

MSF is not a reliable source?


Of course not!

1) French in origin, therefore cheese-eating surrender monkey liberal
2) International, therefore liberal
C) Doctors who volunteer to work in Third World hellholes instead of making tons of money, therefore liberal
4) Nonprofit, therefore liberal
 
2013-08-24 06:33:50 PM  

tirob: Other than that he hates their guts, of course. He has killed civilians many times over the past two years using conventional weapons.


So has the US. Sorry you had to find out your government hates your guts this way.

There are some things in this awful day and age it's best to not throw stones about, because everyone is in glass houses. To try and hold one person up as the only evil in the world just doesn't work anymore.
 
2013-08-24 06:34:24 PM  
The problem is that this report can't say who used the chemical weapons, only that they were used.  It's probably that they were used by Assad, but then again some of the jihadist AQ type groups operating in Syria are crazy enough to do this in an attempt to get Assad out.

Even if the US did attack Syria and remove Assad, the only thing we guarantee is a civil war between the jihadists and the secular groups for power.
 
2013-08-24 06:36:26 PM  

ourbigdumbmouth: The Administration can't even decide if Eygpt had a coup.


Probably because that country doesn't exist?
 
2013-08-24 06:36:32 PM  
I have put on my tinfoil hat.
A small group of medical staff, seeking an end to war, conspire to send falsified data to MSF.
MSF, having only this information to act on, declare it appears someone has used WMD.

Taking off my tinfoil hat I shall now escape to the kitchen.
 
2013-08-24 06:38:05 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: tirob: Other than that he hates their guts, of course. He has killed civilians many times over the past two years using conventional weapons.

So has the US. Sorry you had to find out your government hates your guts this way.

There are some things in this awful day and age it's best to not throw stones about, because everyone is in glass houses. To try and hold one person up as the only evil in the world just doesn't work anymore.


Put words in my mouth much?
 
2013-08-24 06:40:58 PM  
sweet-daddy-2:  falsified data .
MSF, having only this information to act on, declare it appears someone has used WMD.
.


MSF has made no such declaration.
 
2013-08-24 06:44:44 PM  

tirob: Assuming that the patients seen at the three hospitals DWB supports were sickened by the same chemical agent at the same time (a justifiable assumption I think) and assuming that that chemical agent was a toxic chemical intended by whoever released it to kill people, I think it would be quite an achievement for the rebels to bring into Syria (without being detected) enough of that toxic chemical to sicken 3600 people at once (and to kill 355 of them), to train their personnel how to handle and deliver that toxic chemical without endangering themselves (so that they could get away with their cunning plan undetected), and to resist the temptation to use that same toxic chemical against the forces of the Syrian government. In short, I think the chances that the rebels did this are infinitesimal.


First off, AQ has shown no issue with murdering thousands of people in a very short period of time using suicide methods and there is no doubt at all that AQ is firmly embedded within the rebels so your assertion is flawed in that regard in that there has been martyrs willing to go to great personal risk, including death, to harm others. Secondly there is no guarantee at this time that the rebels hadn't stolen or otherwise acquired some of Assad's chemical munitions which would make it much easier. That aside Iran hasn't had a whole lot of problems shipping weaponry to the rebels so I would suspect that others may be able to do so as well. This kind of shoots down that line of thought as well.

In other words there is no way that I know of at this time, short of someone coming forward and making a positive declaration that they intentionally used these weapons on these people, that will have any chance of convincing most of the world (at least those who haven't already picked sides) who did it. As such we should be staying out of it by attacking neither one side or the other.

Put some forces in place to contain it? Sure, that sounds pretty prudent to me. All that will cost is some fuel to tool around just outside of their territorial waters. It's not like we aren't already feeding and paying those guys anyway. But not one piece of US munitions should be crossing their borders given what little we know. They haven't attacked us or or allies, only themselves.There are other major nations that are more vested in the outcome than we are by far and they should be the ones dealing with it.
 
2013-08-24 06:52:33 PM  
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-220813.html

 In sum, the compass of the "regime change" project in Syria has shifted in favor of the Salafists. Besides, these are still early days in Egypt and what happens on the Nile banks would ultimately rewrite Middle eastern politics. In the present situation, Assad will negotiate from a position of unassailable strength at the "Geneva 2" negotiating table, which is untenable.

This is where the chemical weapons controversy and the opening of a Syrian file at the UN Security Council offers a breather to break the momentum of Assad's army and the swagger of the Hezbollah and Iran and end the look of smug satisfaction on the Russian face.

so in effect the use of chemical weapons is a blow to assad who was winning
 
2013-08-24 06:54:46 PM  

ontariolightning: Just what you'd want. Russia & Chinese military aggression in response. Yep. Won't happen. US can't do anything militarily.


You think there would be a Russian or Chinese military response to western support to topple Assad? No chance
 
2013-08-24 06:56:00 PM  

Rhino_man: llevrok: Don't blame me, I was on vacation (again) -  Obama.

Nevermind that the President has taken fewer vacation days than any of the last 3 presidents. Don't let those facts stop you.


And when a president is on vacation, it's not likes he's cut off from the world and refuses to do any work at all.  "Mr. President, Secretary Kerry is on the phone.  He says Assad just gassed several thousand people."  "Tell him to fark off!  "I'm 8 beers deep and about to level up my Elementalist.  Tell him I'll call him when I'm back in DC on Monday.  Maybe Tuesday 'cuz Biden wants to play golf on Sunday and we'll probably be all shiattyfaced till the middle of Monday."
 
2013-08-24 07:01:16 PM  

tirob: Put words in my mouth much?


Not really. Just ran with your reasoning. If your reasoning can't be applied to an identical situation, then there's something faulty about it. Or you're being disingenuous.

Since you're so concerned about innocent civilians being killed by their governments i'm genuinely curious why this doesn't bother you as much.
 
2013-08-24 07:05:05 PM  

Radioactive Ass: First off, AQ has shown no issue with murdering thousands of people in a very short period of time using suicide methods


AQ's suicide attacks have up to now targeted its perceived enemies.  I wrote the part about resisting the temptation to use the toxic chemical against Syrian forces with AQ in mind.

Radioactive Ass: AQ is firmly embedded within the rebels


I would say that some of the rebel groups are AQ sympathizers, and that there are some AQ members among these sympathizing groups, but what you write is fair enough, I think.

Radioactive Ass: Secondly there is no guarantee at this time that the rebels hadn't stolen or otherwise acquired some of Assad's chemical munitions which would make it much easier


No guarantee but unlikely I think.  If Assad has chemical weapons, I would think that he would guard them with his most loyal and trusted forces, and that they would be the last asset he lost.

Radioactive Ass: Iran hasn't had a whole lot of problems shipping weaponry to the rebels


Iran has shipped no weapons to the rebels AFAIK.  Teheran is Assad's ally.  I think you mean Saudi Arabia.

Radioactive Ass: we should be staying out of it


I agree.  So far.

Radioactive Ass: There are other major nations that are more vested in the outcome than we are by far and they should be the ones dealing with it.


I suggested Turkey on another thread here.  Probably unrealistic given all the historical and geopolitical factors, though.
 
2013-08-24 07:06:08 PM  

Copper Spork: Unfortunately, this isn't from a reliable source. Acting on this would be even more of a mistake than believing that Iraq had WMDs.


i28.photobucket.com


MSF is absolutely a reliable source. Note that they are not making any claims as to what specific toxin or agent may have caused this, nor are they making any claim as to who is responsible. They are simply reporting on a mass-casualty incident from a medical point-of-view.
 
2013-08-24 07:11:04 PM  

cc_rider: MSF is absolutely a reliable source. Note that they are not making any claims as to what specific toxin or agent may have caused this, nor are they making any claim as to who is responsible. They are simply reporting on a mass-casualty incident from a medical point-of-view.


Yeah, i don't think there's any doubt something was used, but everyone talking about who gains the most by it is completely correct.

Assad might be the biggest asshole ever. Lets say he even does hate his citizens and delights in killing them. But it's highly unlikely he'd so eagerly give the US and others justification to roll tanks into his country by using chemical weapons. He had the FSA under control. There was no reason for him to get desperate.
 
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