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(Global Post)   Syria: So we were just walking around Damascus and we stumbled upon these rebel tunnels, and wouldn't you know it, we found a whole bunch of chemical weapons just laying there, proving we didn't gas anyone. Funny how that worked out, ain't it?   (globalpost.com) divider line 135
    More: Unlikely, chemical agents, Damascus, Syrians, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel  
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5156 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2013 at 2:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



135 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-24 11:25:08 AM  
Ful scale bomb-the-fark out of them may still be a bit premature, but it may be bomb-them-a-little-until-they-let-the- UN-inpectors-in time.
 
2013-08-24 11:38:38 AM  
Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.
 
2013-08-24 12:05:12 PM  
Kind of goes against witness accounts of a bombardment taking place when people began having symptoms.
 
2013-08-24 01:04:22 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Yeah, the chain of custody is more than a bit suspect.  Still, both sides seem bad here, the Syrian military is almost certainly using chemical weapons, and some of the rebels are Islamic extremists being backed by al-qaeda, we should just pull out and let them take each other out.
 
2013-08-24 01:05:32 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Elements of the Syrian army that defected or captured along with the conventional arms they are using ?


Unlikely but not impossible.
 
2013-08-24 01:15:33 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


They got them from Libya. How did they get them from Libya? Hmm.....

And the Syrian army would be crazy to use them, they're beating the shiat out of the rebels, no need to resort to chemical weapons.
 
2013-08-24 02:28:23 PM  
media2.s-nbcnews.com

You're not fooling anyone, Ass.
 
2013-08-24 02:36:06 PM  
What really pisses me off, though, are people who have a knee-jerk reaction to any thought of intervention in the Middle East. This go around, it wouldn't be based on lies, it wouldn't be an experiment in creating "free economic zones," it wouldn't be a product of American hubris, and it wouldn't be sorting out anyone's daddy issues. In addition, we've learned a great deal from Iraq, like "DON'T DISBAND THE FREAKING ARMY PUTTING THOUSANDS OF VIOLENT MEN OUT OF WORK AND ONTO THE STREETS."

Those familiar with just how much nuance went into Obama's approach to Iran prior to the 2009 elections (at which point Republicans and AIPAC cocksuckers in Congress forced his hand) should feel pretty confident in his ability to finesse the situation.
 
2013-08-24 02:48:53 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.

Yeah, the chain of custody is more than a bit suspect.  Still, both sides seem bad here, the Syrian military is almost certainly using chemical weapons, and some of the rebels are Islamic extremists being backed by al-qaeda, we should just pull out and let them take each other out.


And then we carpet-bomb the survivor. Then everybody wins!
 
2013-08-24 02:49:07 PM  

Ambivalence: That's not suspicious at ALL.


Unlike using chemical weapons just after granting access to the UN inspectors. Got you.
 
2013-08-24 02:49:32 PM  

dj_bigbird: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.

They got them from Libya. How did they get them from Libya? Hmm.....

And the Syrian army would be crazy to use them, they're beating the shiat out of the rebels, no need to resort to chemical weapons.


Exactly.  Looking at the death toll, and the hopelessness of their situation, it makes perfect sense that they would sacrifice some of their own people to get U.S. Military support.  If they've lost 1 million, then sacrificing 1,000 to turn the tide is acceptable collateral damage.
 
2013-08-24 02:50:20 PM  
Assad cannot lose or else the whole region will lose and rebels aka Al Qaeda will actually be in political control of a country. They will try to gain other countries afterwards. Eventually they'll fight to get back Jerusalem. This is just a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Back off USA.
 
2013-08-24 02:50:55 PM  

omnibus_necanda_sunt: What really pisses me off, though, are people who have a knee-jerk reaction to any thought of intervention in the Middle East. This go around, it wouldn't be based on lies, it wouldn't be an experiment in creating "free economic zones," it wouldn't be a product of American hubris, and it wouldn't be sorting out anyone's daddy issues. In addition, we've learned a great deal from Iraq, like "DON'T DISBAND THE FREAKING ARMY PUTTING THOUSANDS OF VIOLENT MEN OUT OF WORK AND ONTO THE STREETS."

Those familiar with just how much nuance went into Obama's approach to Iran prior to the 2009 elections (at which point Republicans and AIPAC cocksuckers in Congress forced his hand) should feel pretty confident in his ability to finesse the situation.


The morons who devoutly supported the last war had fantasies in their mind of cheap oil for their Hummer, took Ann Coulter's speech of "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity" to heart (some of them probably also went to Iraq to try to convert Muslims after the "Mission Accomplished" banner was shown), and actually think the world would be better if it was run like a business (despite it not helping them at all, and hurting them in most cases, unless they have a few thousand shares in Exxon). There is no doubt that this mentality is continuing today, no matter how destructive it is.
 
2013-08-24 02:54:19 PM  

ontariolightning: Assad cannot lose or else the whole region will lose and rebels aka Al Qaeda will actually be in political control of a country. They will try to gain other countries afterwards. Eventually they'll fight to get back Jerusalem. This is just a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Back off USA.


I heard they all eat people for breakfast too
 
2013-08-24 02:56:16 PM  
I see the Fark warmongers are already up and running.
 
2013-08-24 02:58:53 PM  

ontariolightning: Assad cannot lose or else the whole region will lose and rebels aka Al Qaeda will actually be in political control of a country. They will try to gain other countries afterwards. Eventually they'll fight to get back Jerusalem. This is just a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Back off USA.


I've come around to that way if thinking. His regime is far from ideal as far as the west is concerned, but his government has maintained stability in the country for several years, and is more tolerant of other religions/world views than most countries in that region and certainly more so than the fundamentalists trying to overthrow him.

In other words, Assad is the lesser of two evils
 
2013-08-24 03:00:36 PM  
That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.
 
2013-08-24 03:02:27 PM  
Have to say the only complaint that I have against the way the Obama Administration has handled this situation was coming several months ago and saying the use of chemical weapons we be crossing a red line and then not doing anything once it was established chemical weapons have been used several times.

That being said, there really does not seem to be a "winning" strategy with this situation.  Assad is a bad, bad dude but the rebels are not the sort of folks I have any confidence in how they would rule should they be successful in taking down Assad.

Sadly, it seems the Syrian people are the big losers regardless of the outcome.
 
2013-08-24 03:05:55 PM  
i860.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-24 03:07:12 PM  
Let them figure it out for themselves. It's a choice between a regime and a bunch of religious fanatics, which really isn't much of a choice. Consider it Darwinian garbage cleanup and stay out.
 
2013-08-24 03:08:02 PM  
who cares, IMHO, if a ruthless dictator can't gas his own people , it's no fun being a ruthless dictator...see Sadam
 
2013-08-24 03:09:41 PM  
"thinly-veiled"

Like Gossamer Wings!, The Syrian Government is like a bunch of privilege teenagers. I bet they would beat up bus driver for writing down their BMW license plate #.
 
2013-08-24 03:10:36 PM  
Laying there? In English only hens and whores lay.
 
2013-08-24 03:10:50 PM  

hitlersbrain: Let them figure it out for themselves. It's a choice between a regime and a bunch of religious fanatics, which really isn't much of a choice. Consider it Darwinian garbage cleanup and stay out.


I agree to a point.  I would also encourage two more things:

1) Inform Syria, both government and rebel leaders, that the U.S. military will be evacuating any and all civilians that want to get out of the line of fire.  Use our influence in Iraq to have them moved across the Iraqi border until the mess blows over.

2) Tomahawks dropped on any confirmed launching point for chem weapon attacks, regardless of source.
 
2013-08-24 03:10:56 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-24 03:11:51 PM  

E_Henry_Thripshaws_Disease: who cares, IMHO, if a ruthless dictator can't gas his own people , it's no fun being a ruthless dictator...see Sadam


You know, as the times change, job descriptions do as well.

Nothing is as fun as the good old days.
 
2013-08-24 03:12:21 PM  
He has political support of the majority of the country. The people protesting at the start where actually the people who are now rebel loyalists and not ordinary Syrians. the whole thing has been hijacked by our media into wanting us to get rid of Assad. 

Pumpernickel bread: ontariolightning: Assad cannot lose or else the whole region will lose and rebels aka Al Qaeda will actually be in political control of a country. They will try to gain other countries afterwards. Eventually they'll fight to get back Jerusalem. This is just a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Back off USA.

I've come around to that way if thinking. His regime is far from ideal as far as the west is concerned, but his government has maintained stability in the country for several years, and is more tolerant of other religions/world views than most countries in that region and certainly more so than the fundamentalists trying to overthrow him.

In other words, Assad is the lesser of two evils

 
2013-08-24 03:13:58 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.

Yeah, the chain of custody is more than a bit suspect.  Still, both sides seem bad here, the Syrian military is almost certainly using chemical weapons, and some of the rebels are Islamic extremists being backed by al-qaeda, we should just pull out and let them take each other out.





I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

So we rattle his cage and let the people on the street can decide what they want from there. Maybe we can get a good foot in the door with the next government, or maybe we don't have to care if they keep their problems to themselves.

Its better than letting the use of WMDs go entirely ignored in a region that's loaded with these things.
 
2013-08-24 03:15:43 PM  
www.mememate.com
 
2013-08-24 03:15:49 PM  

Infernalist: That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.


I don't know, some of the brightest farkers believe Assad
 
2013-08-24 03:17:35 PM  

LewDux: Infernalist: That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.

I don't know, some of the brightest farkers believe Assad


I believe it's far more believable that a country known to have Chem weapons has used them on a rebel force.
 
2013-08-24 03:17:38 PM  

jpo2269: Have to say the only complaint that I have against the way the Obama Administration has handled this situation was coming several months ago and saying the use of chemical weapons we be crossing a red line and then not doing anything once it was established chemical weapons have been used several times.

That being said, there really does not seem to be a "winning" strategy with this situation.  Assad is a bad, bad dude but the rebels are not the sort of folks I have any confidence in how they would rule should they be successful in taking down Assad.

Sadly, it seems the Syrian people are the big losers regardless of the outcome.


The winning strategy is what we did with Japan during WWII. Crush everything with overwhelming force, and then spend the next 25 years or so rebuilding it until power is passed to the hands of a new generation.
 
2013-08-24 03:18:05 PM  

LewDux: Infernalist: That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.

I don't know, some of the brightest farkers believe Assad


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-24 03:20:15 PM  
way south:

In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Killing Assad is the same thing as backing AQ. You're killing Assad for them. You must be way south in Florida because your thinking skills suck.
 
2013-08-24 03:20:38 PM  
Can't americans figure out they are being played for chumps again?

It's all a damn set up so the people with power in the USA can make their next move in their real life game of risk. Meanwhile the military industrial complex gets another war to profit from.

For crying out loud many of the rebels in Syria are of the same group american taxpayers are paying the bill to fight in Afghanistan. These rebels are killing anyone not of their religion in Syria. They aren't good people. They are being funded and supported because they achieve a higher political goal for the powers that be. Never mind what happens to regular people in the process.

If you don't think a chemical weapons attack would be launched or staged to convince the american people into supporting yet another war where the US federal government has no business being in the first place you're naive and ignorant of history. Americans have been falling for bullshiat like this for about 150 years now. Then decades later they learn they were lied to but then it happens again. Remember the Maine. Gulf of Tokin. Germans killing babies, Iraq's military killing babies.... on an on. Chumps falling for it every time.

Americans are chumps and being played for chumps, again.
 
2013-08-24 03:22:15 PM  

Infernalist: That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.


Well you are.  Well, maybe not retarded but stupid enough not to realize that there are several rebel factions and none of them particularly like each other.  Gassing an opposing faction knowing that the idiot in the American White House is itching to get into the mess and will blame anything on the Syrian government is far more logical than the government gassing them when 1) they are winning, 2) have Russian advisors on the ground with more Russian equipment on the way, 3) have already let the UN in, and 4) have pretty much proven that the last gas attack was done by rebels (or at least proved it well enough to get everyone to back off for a while).
 
2013-08-24 03:22:35 PM  
way south ,
I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.
So we rattle his cage and let the people on the street can decide what they want from there. Maybe we can get a good foot in the door with the next government, or maybe we don't have to care if they keep their problems to themselves.
Its better than letting the use of WMDs go entirely ignored in a region that's loaded with these things.


Who knows, maybe the US could have CIA agents on the ground aiming lasers if they don't already.  Communist forces used WWI in Russia and WWII in China to take power, and I would not put Al Queda past this.  Obama could try to do everything right, it could fall from a democracy to an Islamic theocracy and it would still be Obama's fault.  However St Reagan still had nothing to do with the fall of  Afghanistan.

The word WMD concern is being overplayed though.  Poison gas has been used since WWI and probably earlier.
 
2013-08-24 03:23:59 PM  

leadmetal: Can't americans figure out they are being played for chumps again?

It's all a damn set up so the people with power in the USA can make their next move in their real life game of risk. Meanwhile the military industrial complex gets another war to profit from.

For crying out loud many of the rebels in Syria are of the same group american taxpayers are paying the bill to fight in Afghanistan. These rebels are killing anyone not of their religion in Syria. They aren't good people. They are being funded and supported because they achieve a higher political goal for the powers that be. Never mind what happens to regular people in the process.

If you don't think a chemical weapons attack would be launched or staged to convince the american people into supporting yet another war where the US federal government has no business being in the first place you're naive and ignorant of history. Americans have been falling for bullshiat like this for about 150 years now. Then decades later they learn they were lied to but then it happens again. Remember the Maine. Gulf of Tokin. Germans killing babies, Iraq's military killing babies.... on an on. Chumps falling for it every time.

Americans are chumps and being played for chumps, again.


I think you're freaking out over nothing.

Nothing that's done in Syria is going to provoke the US into getting physically involved.  We might send in covert agents and work in diplomatic ways....we might even try to arrange some help for the civilian population, but that's it.

Satan himself could materialize in Damascus, fifty feet tall, and start rampaging like some Godzilla figure and the US would send a stern letter of disapproval to the Embassy of Hell.

We're not getting involved.
 
2013-08-24 03:25:16 PM  
Can we stop with the idea that it is only jihadists who oppose assad? It's nonsense to anyone with even the slightest idea of what is going on, yet i keep hearing people repeating takes on it.
 
2013-08-24 03:26:13 PM  

GranPuro: Infernalist: That is some brass-balls level audacity.  They find the chem weapons in rebel tunnels near a region held by the rebels, thus throwing the blame on the rebels AND giving them more reason to bomb the living shiat out of the rebel region.

Because if you're a bunch of rebels and you've gassed your own fellow rebels in order to make the Syrian government look bad, then you're going to leave the evidence of it 'outside' your region of control in some tunnels that are near patrolling government forces.

The Syrian government sincerely thinks that the rest of the world is farking retarded.

Well you are.  Well, maybe not retarded but stupid enough not to realize that there are several rebel factions and none of them particularly like each other.  Gassing an opposing faction knowing that the idiot in the American White House is itching to get into the mess and will blame anything on the Syrian government is far more logical than the government gassing them when 1) they are winning, 2) have Russian advisors on the ground with more Russian equipment on the way, 3) have already let the UN in, and 4) have pretty much proven that the last gas attack was done by rebels (or at least proved it well enough to get everyone to back off for a while).


And for all their intellect and deviousness, they're going to leave evidence of it behind.  Oh sure, I can believe that they're smart enough to do it and frame the government, but still stupid enough to leave behind blatant evidence.

Seems legit to me.
 
2013-08-24 03:28:49 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Well you can find how to make them online
/Or so I heard
 
2013-08-24 03:29:35 PM  

LewDux: brightest farkers


Talk about damning with faint praise.
 
2013-08-24 03:30:52 PM  
The BS crap about Syria being reported by the mainstream media needs to stop. They clearly have an agenda.

All Arabs are the most peaceful people on the planet and anyone who says otherwise is just a racist.
 
2013-08-24 03:31:30 PM  

ontariolightning: way south:

In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Killing Assad is the same thing as backing AQ. You're killing Assad for them. You must be way south in Florida because your thinking skills suck.




Who said we have to kill him?
We level the playing field as a punishment for him using banned weapons against civilians. His people are more than ready to decide his fate. As a bonus, We let everyone in the region know that WMDs are not toys and their use won't be overlooked.
With a dozen nations near the boiling point over there, its an important message to send before this sort of thing repeats itself yet again.

/and for the record, I live much farther south than Florida.
 
2013-08-24 03:31:57 PM  

Infernalist: We're not getting involved.


No we aren't getting involved.
The US federal government is already involved and may get more involved.
We won't be. We'll just pay the bill.
 
2013-08-24 03:35:15 PM  
The Ba'th Party has been in power since 1963. During all of that time Syria has been placed under a state of emergency, effectively destroying any notion of freedom. The uprising is the result of this.
 
2013-08-24 03:35:41 PM  

leadmetal: Infernalist: We're not getting involved.

No we aren't getting involved.
The US federal government is already involved and may get more involved.
We won't be. We'll just pay the bill.


Okay?  Who cares as long as we don't get stuck in a quagmire like Syria?

Sure, throw money at people over there if that means we don't get our military involved.  I'm very okay with that.  It's just 'money' and compared to what else we could lose over there, 'money' is the least valuable thing.
 
2013-08-24 03:36:53 PM  
way south:
, its an important message to send before this sort of thing repeats itself yet again.

The only message you'd be sending is "get your hands on chemical agents, release it, blame the government, and NATO will come running to help you.
 
2013-08-24 03:37:03 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


No, but you used to could order your very own tank that looks like a dalek but named after Kim Kardashian's ass.
 
2013-08-24 03:39:22 PM  

way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.


Okay, let us see what would happen if the West went and put their weight behind your "lesser" of two evils.

We would help oust Asad, who is relatively moderate, and thus make room for Al Queda to take control. Or at least destabilise things enough that they will get regions under their control. Individual liberties, as much as there are, will go down the drain. Women will lose even the vestiges of rights they have because Al Queda isn't big on those. Locals will either be bullied in helping/supporting Al Queda or be hunted down.

Just how is Al Queda the lesser evil? Because they didn't use a chemical weapon? That is a very simplistic way of looking at things and will hurt the population at large far more than a few gas canisters. Just let them figure their own shiat out and steer away from this clusterfark. There is no good ending and if "we" are getting blamed either way ("You could have helped!" vs "You were the ones who ousted Assad, things were better then!"), then it is better to be blamed after not losing resources and lives of our own.
 
2013-08-24 03:42:03 PM  

ontariolightning: way south:
, its an important message to send before this sort of thing repeats itself yet again.

The only message you'd be sending is "get your hands on chemical agents, release it, blame the government, and NATO will come running to help you.


So, lemme see if I understand the reality that would be required for your premise:

In the reality where that could happen, the Syrian government would have horribly lax control over their WMDs to the point of being criminally bad...

And when they lose them, no one realizes it or contacts their superiors to let them know that WMDs are on the loose...

And the Syrian government doesn't contact the UN to let them know that rebels have stolen their WMDs...

And finally, the rebels are both smart enough, talented enough and wise enough to both steal and use the weapons...but leave blatant proof of it being 'them' and not the Syrian government, thus ruining their plan at the very last stage.

Is that what you're suggesting happened?
 
2013-08-24 03:42:12 PM  
How will the Middle-East ever figure out that their priorities are dumb if we bail their asses out every time they decide that they'd rather ruin their country and put millions of lives at risk than let Shi'ites rule over Sunnis or vice versa?
 
2013-08-24 03:44:51 PM  

DerAppie: way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Okay, let us see what would happen if the West went and put their weight behind your "lesser" of two evils.

We would help oust Asad, who is relatively moderate, and thus make room for Al Queda to take control. Or at least destabilise things enough that they will get regions under their control. Individual liberties, as much as there are, will go down the drain. Women will lose even the vestiges of rights they have because Al Queda isn't big on those. Locals will either be bullied in helping/supporting Al Queda or be hunted down.

Just how is Al Queda the lesser evil? Because they didn't use a chemical weapon? That is a very simplistic way of looking at things and will hurt the population at large far more than a few gas canisters. Just let them figure their own shiat out and steer away from this clusterfark. There is no good ending and if "we" are getting blamed either way ("You could have helped!" vs "You were the ones who ousted Assad, things were better then!"), then it is better to be blamed after not losing resources and lives of our own.


Why support either of them?  If AQ knocks over and kills Assad, then we'll deal with AQ when they give us reason to deal with them in Syria.

If Assad finishes off AQ, then we'll deal with him when he gives us reason to.

Either way, we have no reason to support either of them, even to the point of one of them winning.
 
2013-08-24 03:45:00 PM  

DerAppie: way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Okay, let us see what would happen if the West went and put their weight behind your "lesser" of two evils.

We would help oust Asad, who is relatively moderate, and thus make room for Al Queda to take control. Or at least destabilise things enough that they will get regions under their control. Individual liberties, as much as there are, will go down the drain. Women will lose even the vestiges of rights they have because Al Queda isn't big on those. Locals will either be bullied in helping/supporting Al Queda or be hunted down.

Just how is Al Queda the lesser evil? Because they didn't use a chemical weapon? That is a very simplistic way of looking at things and will hurt the population at large far more than a few gas canisters. Just let them figure their own shiat out and steer away from this clusterfark. There is no good ending and if "we" are getting blamed either way ("You could have helped!" vs "You were the ones who ousted Assad, things were better then!"), then it is better to be blamed after not losing resources and lives of our own.


Ousting Assad does not mean we are making room for Al Qaeda to take control. Allowing the situation to continue as is is what is facilitating Al Qaeda
 
2013-08-24 03:45:38 PM  

Infernalist: Okay? Who cares as long as we don't get stuck in a quagmire like Syria?

Sure, throw money at people over there if that means we don't get our military involved. I'm very okay with that. It's just 'money' and compared to what else we could lose over there, 'money' is the least valuable thing.


First it was money... then it's advisers... then there's the gulf of tokin and next thing ya know there's a draft and 50,000 americans and millions of other people are dead.

But let's say it stays at the money and arms. who is being funded and armed? The same group that is the reason we have to be body scanned and/or groped at airports because of. They have always been a tool to achieve political goals. They were so a dozen years ago, 30 years ago, and today. And of course there are the people who are being killed by weapons paid for by the US taxpayer getting pissed off and perhaps seeking revenge.
 
2013-08-24 03:48:03 PM  
Hey Infernalist, the Rebels had raided many chemical weapon storage facilities in Libya, when NATO did their thing.
Also this is war and the Syrian military has lost a few battles. It's not that unlikely that the military would not be able to protect all chemical weapon storage facilities.And the UN does know. The whole world knows. Israel is especially worried about it.
 
2013-08-24 03:49:08 PM  

leadmetal: Infernalist: Okay? Who cares as long as we don't get stuck in a quagmire like Syria?

Sure, throw money at people over there if that means we don't get our military involved. I'm very okay with that. It's just 'money' and compared to what else we could lose over there, 'money' is the least valuable thing.

First it was money... then it's advisers... then there's the gulf of tokin and next thing ya know there's a draft and 50,000 americans and millions of other people are dead.

But let's say it stays at the money and arms. who is being funded and armed? The same group that is the reason we have to be body scanned and/or groped at airports because of. They have always been a tool to achieve political goals. They were so a dozen years ago, 30 years ago, and today. And of course there are the people who are being killed by weapons paid for by the US taxpayer getting pissed off and perhaps seeking revenge.


Okay, it's not 1950-whatever.  It's 2013 and if you want a closer analogy to what's happening, you only have to look back to Libya.

Like him or hate him, this President knows how to do foreign policy.  So stop being terrified of us ending up in a new Vietnam and start realizing that the guys in charge 'right now' are not retards and aren't going to get us into another Vietnam.
 
2013-08-24 03:50:19 PM  

leadmetal: Infernalist: Okay? Who cares as long as we don't get stuck in a quagmire like Syria?

Sure, throw money at people over there if that means we don't get our military involved. I'm very okay with that. It's just 'money' and compared to what else we could lose over there, 'money' is the least valuable thing.

First it was money... then it's advisers... then there's the gulf of tokin and next thing ya know there's a draft and 50,000 americans and millions of other people are dead.

But let's say it stays at the money and arms. who is being funded and armed? The same group that is the reason we have to be body scanned and/or groped at airports because of. They have always been a tool to achieve political goals. They were so a dozen years ago, 30 years ago, and today. And of course there are the people who are being killed by weapons paid for by the US taxpayer getting pissed off and perhaps seeking revenge.


The argument is to arm some of those groups fighting Assad - not all of them. I haven't seen anyone argue that we should arm the Al Qaeda affiliated groups. The argument is that we could supply arms that we could prevent falling into the hands of al qaeda affiliated groups

Enough with the strawmen
 
2013-08-24 03:50:23 PM  

ontariolightning: Hey Infernalist, the Rebels had raided many chemical weapon storage facilities in Libya, when NATO did their thing.
Also this is war and the Syrian military has lost a few battles. It's not that unlikely that the military would not be able to protect all chemical weapon storage facilities.And the UN does know. The whole world knows. Israel is especially worried about it.


And those chem weapons are both numbered and inventoried, so if a chem weapon attack happened, they'd know for certain who did it, wouldn't they?
 
2013-08-24 03:51:11 PM  
Goddamn, there's a lot of scared little girls in this thread.
 
2013-08-24 03:53:42 PM  

Infernalist: ontariolightning: Hey Infernalist, the Rebels had raided many chemical weapon storage facilities in Libya, when NATO did their thing.
Also this is war and the Syrian military has lost a few battles. It's not that unlikely that the military would not be able to protect all chemical weapon storage facilities.And the UN does know. The whole world knows. Israel is especially worried about it.

And those chem weapons are both numbered and inventoried, so if a chem weapon attack happened, they'd know for certain who did it, wouldn't they?


I'm not going to pretend that I know Syria or Libya's protocol for their chemical weapons cache.
 
2013-08-24 03:54:37 PM  
Put me in the rebels are lying group. Every time we open our mouth or support one of these groups someone from said group smacks the shiat out of us 20 years later
 
2013-08-24 03:54:53 PM  

ontariolightning: Infernalist: ontariolightning: Hey Infernalist, the Rebels had raided many chemical weapon storage facilities in Libya, when NATO did their thing.
Also this is war and the Syrian military has lost a few battles. It's not that unlikely that the military would not be able to protect all chemical weapon storage facilities.And the UN does know. The whole world knows. Israel is especially worried about it.

And those chem weapons are both numbered and inventoried, so if a chem weapon attack happened, they'd know for certain who did it, wouldn't they?

I'm not going to pretend that I know Syria or Libya's protocol for their chemical weapons cache.


You can't sincerely believe that they just shoved a bunch of chem weapons into a facility and didn't keep track of which ones were there....
 
2013-08-24 03:57:32 PM  
Infernalist:
You can't sincerely believe that they just shoved a bunch of chem weapons into a facility and didn't keep track of which ones were there....

The U.S military doesn't know the number of nuclear warheads that they have lost. Bureaucracies are incompetent. Especially government ones.,
 
2013-08-24 03:58:39 PM  

Infernalist: DerAppie: way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Okay, let us see what would happen if the West went and put their weight behind your "lesser" of two evils.

We would help oust Asad, who is relatively moderate, and thus make room for Al Queda to take control. Or at least destabilise things enough that they will get regions under their control. Individual liberties, as much as there are, will go down the drain. Women will lose even the vestiges of rights they have because Al Queda isn't big on those. Locals will either be bullied in helping/supporting Al Queda or be hunted down.

Just how is Al Queda the lesser evil? Because they didn't use a chemical weapon? That is a very simplistic way of looking at things and will hurt the population at large far more than a few gas canisters. Just let them figure their own shiat out and steer away from this clusterfark. There is no good ending and if "we" are getting blamed either way ("You could have helped!" vs "You were the ones who ousted Assad, things were better then!"), then it is better to be blamed after not losing resources and lives of our own.

Why support either of them?  If AQ knocks over and kills Assad, then we'll deal with AQ when they give us reason to deal with them in Syria.

If Assad finishes off AQ, then we'll deal with him when he gives us reason to.

Either way, we have no reason to support either of them, even to the point of one of them winning.


Which was my point. Meddling only leads to more problems.
 
2013-08-24 04:01:25 PM  

ontariolightning: Hey Infernalist, the Rebels had raided many chemical weapon storage facilities in Libya, when NATO did their thing.
Also this is war and the Syrian military has lost a few battles. It's not that unlikely that the military would not be able to protect all chemical weapon storage facilities.And the UN does know. The whole world knows. Israel is especially worried about it.


Put your faith in the President, coward. What are you some kind of terrorist or something?? We've always been allied with al-qaida.
 
2013-08-24 04:01:50 PM  

ontariolightning: Infernalist:
You can't sincerely believe that they just shoved a bunch of chem weapons into a facility and didn't keep track of which ones were there....

The U.S military doesn't know the number of nuclear warheads that they have lost. Bureaucracies are incompetent. Especially government ones.,


Wow, okay, lol  Nevermind, you go ahead and continue posting whatever you like.  lol

you go ahead with your bad self.  lol
 
2013-08-24 04:01:50 PM  
farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2013-08-24 04:04:25 PM  

DerAppie: Infernalist: DerAppie: way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

Okay, let us see what would happen if the West went and put their weight behind your "lesser" of two evils.

We would help oust Asad, who is relatively moderate, and thus make room for Al Queda to take control. Or at least destabilise things enough that they will get regions under their control. Individual liberties, as much as there are, will go down the drain. Women will lose even the vestiges of rights they have because Al Queda isn't big on those. Locals will either be bullied in helping/supporting Al Queda or be hunted down.

Just how is Al Queda the lesser evil? Because they didn't use a chemical weapon? That is a very simplistic way of looking at things and will hurt the population at large far more than a few gas canisters. Just let them figure their own shiat out and steer away from this clusterfark. There is no good ending and if "we" are getting blamed either way ("You could have helped!" vs "You were the ones who ousted Assad, things were better then!"), then it is better to be blamed after not losing resources and lives of our own.

Why support either of them?  If AQ knocks over and kills Assad, then we'll deal with AQ when they give us reason to deal with them in Syria.

If Assad finishes off AQ, then we'll deal with him when he gives us reason to.

Either way, we have no reason to support either of them, even to the point of one of them winning.

Which was my point. Meddling only leads to more problems.


Syria is a problem for the world. An internal uprising against a dictator has already become a proxy war. It isn't the case that if the west does nothing the Syrian people will sort it out and come to some sort of resolution.
 
2013-08-24 04:06:10 PM  
It could have been rebel stock pile. They've used saran gas before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKgGRRuuZBY
 
2013-08-24 04:08:55 PM  

InflamedGonads: [i860.photobucket.com image 464x457]


Actually many believe that Iraq's chemical weapons were shipped to Syria.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1595553304
 
2013-08-24 04:09:23 PM  

Sagus: It could have been rebel stock pile. They've used saran gas before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKgGRRuuZBY


RT is Kremlin propaganda. Can't believe you would fall for that. Watch a respectable news channel like MSNBC or Fox News

Man. Some people will believe anything they hear.
 
2013-08-24 04:10:56 PM  
Don't believe a single word your government tells you. You're being manipulated. The press are corporate-owned propaganda rags and government cheerleaders. This is yet another war for Israel's security and the profits of the military-industrial complex.
 
2013-08-24 04:15:00 PM  
Syrian information minister says that his country has never used chemical weapons.

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-regime-never-used-chemical-weapons-mini st er-185932294.html

I hope you're telling the truth, Mr. al-Zohbi.
 
2013-08-24 04:15:14 PM  

Suede head: Don't believe a single word your government tells you. You're being manipulated. The press are corporate-owned propaganda rags and government cheerleaders. This is yet another war for Israel's security and the profits of the military-industrial complex.


Rather, be a responsible consumer of media. I say watch whatever you want and believe what you choose. Trust in logic and critical thinking. DNRTFA.
 
2013-08-24 04:15:26 PM  

Suede head: Don't believe a single word your government tells you. You're being manipulated. The press are corporate-owned propaganda rags and government cheerleaders. This is yet another war for Israel's security and the profits of the military-industrial complex.


There was a popular uprising against an entrenched dictator, who, rather than submitting to the demands of the people, decided to fight them. What the fark does that have to do with western media, Israel, or the military-industrial complex?
 
2013-08-24 04:17:33 PM  

Suede head: Don't believe a single word your government tells you. You're being manipulated. The press are corporate-owned propaganda rags and government cheerleaders. This is yet another war for Israel's security and the profits of the military-industrial complex.


Watch our my Americans. This is a disinfo shill. Probably paid by the Russians and Chinese. Another reason we need to end online anonominity. Hopefully our President is working on that. Put your faith in him, as I have. He keeps us safe from our enemies and gives us freedom.
 
2013-08-24 04:22:35 PM  

ChuDogg: Sagus: It could have been rebel stock pile. They've used saran gas before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKgGRRuuZBY

RT is Kremlin propaganda. Can't believe you would fall for that. Watch a respectable news channel like MSNBC or Fox News

Man. Some people will believe anything they hear.


Ok, then how about this  huff post link for you
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/05/syria-sarin_n_3220502.html
 
2013-08-24 04:23:19 PM  
Been following this story.  Just last week I was driving to Damascus when a sandstorm rose the road disappeared and the axle froze I was low on gas and lower on hope I covered my eyes and I felt for the rope.
 
2013-08-24 04:26:00 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).


Now you're just making work for the NSA and the Amazon recommendation system.
 
2013-08-24 04:34:17 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Well, you can buy bleach and ammonia from them, so in the Faux News realm of things it'd be something like "ZOMG AMAZON SELLS CHEMICAL WEAPONS TO TERRORISTS!!!11"
 
2013-08-24 04:36:23 PM  
I'd believe it was a cover-up if they found a red bandanna in the cave.
 
2013-08-24 04:36:47 PM  

ChuDogg: Suede head: Don't believe a single word your government tells you. You're being manipulated. The press are corporate-owned propaganda rags and government cheerleaders. This is yet another war for Israel's security and the profits of the military-industrial complex.

Watch our my Americans. This is a disinfo shill. Probably paid by the Russians and Chinese. Another reason we need to end online anonominity. Hopefully our President is working on that. Put your faith in him, as I have. He keeps us safe from our enemies and gives us freedom.


Currently given a passing 7/10.  Let's see who bites.
 
2013-08-24 04:38:17 PM  
The US seems to believe every uprising is some triumph of democracy. This is not that, the tree of liberty does not grow in the desert.
 
2013-08-24 04:52:13 PM  

skantea: dj_bigbird: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.

They got them from Libya. How did they get them from Libya? Hmm.....

And the Syrian army would be crazy to use them, they're beating the shiat out of the rebels, no need to resort to chemical weapons.

Exactly.  Looking at the death toll, and the hopelessness of their situation, it makes perfect sense that they would sacrifice some of their own people to get U.S. Military support.  If they've lost 1 million, then sacrificing 1,000 to turn the tide is acceptable collateral damage.


If so, that wasn't their "own people". It was just the people who happened to be living in an area they currently controlled.
 
2013-08-24 04:53:43 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons? It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Captured Syrian weapons.
 
2013-08-24 05:37:24 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons?  It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


The Rebels get the chemical weapons from the exact same stockpiles that the Syrian military got theirs from.  Territorial control has been swapped throughout this civil war and many weapons storage facilities have been in Rebel hands that may contain chemical weapons.  Add to it the fact that chemical weapons have been distributed to Syrian units to maintain some capability and avoid a surgical strike on depots which may eliminate the weapons from the inventory then there are a lot of these weapons floating around.  So if Syrian chemical weapons were used in this rebel held neighborhood, it still doesn't say who fired the weapons.

Now on the face of it, Assad of course wouldn't shed a tear in gassing these enemies. That being said, he doesn't need to do this because his forces (along with Iraqi, Iranian, Hezbollah, as well as Kurdish support in the east) have been pushing back Rebels in many areas and generally winning in a conventional manner using armor, aircraft, and rockets.  Using chemical weapons isn't needed and would only open the door to enhanced western support of rebel units as well as making things more difficult for his financial backers in Russia and Iran.  It doesn't make sense for him to engage this activity unlike 6 months ago when the Rebels held more territory and there was significant doubt about the outcome.  However, just because it didn't make sense doesn't mean  Assad or a commander under his control decided to use the weapons. Given the reluctance of Assad to allow inspectors in the area may suggest guilt, or knowledge that the weapons came from Syria which may tend to point the finger at the government.

Now the rebels on their face would seemingly be reluctant to kill their own.  However, the rebels are not a unitary command structure and there are various factions that are fighting amongst themselves as well as Assad's forces.  Their military situation has been getting more desperate and they are being pushed back in the East, West and South losing key cities and transport routes.  Given this situation, some factions may consider gassing their own people to be acceptable if it works to attract more significant aid to allow them to reverse the trends.  If this nets the forces more advanced weapons, air support, cruise missile strikes, financial assistance, and training, then the sacrifice of a few hundred or thousand women and children may be worthwhile.

I don't know who gassed the neighborhood.  I don't think it is clear cut as many are suggesting even if we find out they are Syrian weapons.  As much as some may want to use this as evidence to get involved, the situation hasn't really changed.  There is no good outcome for this situation and helping the rebels will only cost us blood and treasure while creating a new Afghanistan in the Middle East with various factions ruling a fragmented Syria.
 
2013-08-24 05:42:27 PM  

jpo2269: Have to say the only complaint that I have against the way the Obama Administration has handled this situation was coming several months ago and saying the use of chemical weapons we be crossing a red line and then not doing anything once it was established chemical weapons have been used several times.

That being said, there really does not seem to be a "winning" strategy with this situation.  Assad is a bad, bad dude but the rebels are not the sort of folks I have any confidence in how they would rule should they be successful in taking down Assad.

Sadly, it seems the Syrian people are the big losers regardless of the outcome.


I'm sure a few were happy with the support of The Bear.

Georgia was a test.
 
2013-08-24 06:15:23 PM  
What a rebel tunnel may look like:

coldpost.tv

/amazed no one posted this yet
//maybe because it was surprisingly hard to find a decent Hoth tunnel image
 
2013-08-24 06:33:15 PM  
Both sides are bad, so vote re, kill them, let them kill each other.
 
2013-08-24 06:34:21 PM  

21-7-b: Syria is a problem for the world. An internal uprising against a dictator has already become a proxy war.


The problem with proxy wars is that, even if you win, you end up with nothing. In the grand scale of things nothing is exactly what both parties risk and therefore all that can be won. It is like a soap opera, some people might/will die on either/both sides but at the end of the day all you get is a return to the status quo to make sure that the next episode has a fixed point to start at. Sure, there might be some references down the line ("Remember when X did Y and we responded with Z? Sure showed them.") but the nothing is being advanced.

If we do nothing things will go FUBAR. If we intervene things will go FUBAR. So why invest resources? All we'll end up with is another shiatload of costs with nothing to show for it.

It isn't the case that if the west does nothing the Syrian people will sort it out and come to some sort of resolution.

21-7-b: Ousting Assad does not mean we are making room for Al Qaeda to take control. Allowing the situation to continue as is is what is facilitating Al Qaeda


And if we do something things still won't get resolved. Just look at your average Arab Spring country. Most got more conservative with women losing what we consider to be basic rights. Chaos doesn't help anyone, as it will be the people who scream loudest and make the most ridiculous promises (or put up the largest show of force) that get the most support. And that is hardly ever the moderate reasonable part of the population. Ousting Assad doesn't mean instant democracy (his family has held the presidency since 1971, no way that shiat went fair). It means a collapse of order, no matter how tenuous "order" is at the moment, things will get worse.

Revolutions keep on revolving once they gain momentum. Groups will splinter of because they don't agree and they will keep on kicking at stuff.
 
2013-08-24 07:03:58 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: In other words, Assad is the lesser of two evils



I'd agree with that.  But our precious little king has already said that 'he has to go', and we are already supporting the jihadis.  Red line after red line has been drawn and then stepped over.

What's a community organizer to do?
 
2013-08-24 07:57:48 PM  

Delay: Laying there? In English only hens and whores lay.


Sally lays down too. Or at least he wants her to.

top-10-list.org
 
2013-08-24 08:57:05 PM  
DerAppie

The problem with proxy wars is that, even if you win, you end up with nothing.

I've got no idea where you get the idea that that is true. Take the Syrian conflict, do you really think (shiate) Iran and (sunni) Saudi Arabia have nothing to lose or gain?

In the grand scale of things nothing is exactly what both parties risk and therefore all that can be won. It is like a soap opera, some people might/will die on either/both sides but at the end of the day all you get is a return to the status quo to make sure that the next episode has a fixed point to start at. Sure, there might be some references down the line ("Remember when X did Y and we responded with Z? Sure showed them.") but the nothing is being advanced.

I don't think you get what a proxy war is. You advance your interests and negate those of your opponent.

If we do nothing things will go FUBAR. If we intervene things will go FUBAR. So why invest resources? All we'll end up with is another shiatload of costs with nothing to show for it.

The idea is to intervene in a manner that assists. If that advances our interests and reduces humanitarian cost, then it would be stupid to dismiss it. As for financial cost, the financial cost of the military intervention in Libya was less than 0.1% of that of Iraq. Quite clearly, then, it is quite possible to intervene in a way whereby, in the scheme of things, the financial cost is absolutely trivial.

And if we do something things still won't get resolved. Just look at your average Arab Spring country. Most got more conservative with women losing what we consider to be basic rights. Chaos doesn't help anyone, as it will be the people who scream loudest and make the most ridiculous promises (or put up the largest show of force) that get the most support. And that is hardly ever the moderate reasonable part of the population. Ousting Assad doesn't mean instant democracy (his family has held the presidency since 1971, no way that shiat went fair). It means a collapse of order, no matter how tenuous "order" is at the moment, things will get worse.

Removing a dictator from power doesn't necessarily mean the collapse of order. Look at the Kurdish region in Syria, or Iraq. Creating a power vacuum isn't what anyone is suggesting.

Revolutions keep on revolving once they gain momentum. Groups will splinter of because they don't agree and they will keep on kicking at stuff

I would be surprised if all people involved in a revolution had exactly the same goals. Likewise, i would be surprised if different groups didn't battle for power. That's how the world works. That's also why we should back certain people and principles, rather than simply leaving them to die at the hands of dictators and fundamentalists
 
2013-08-24 09:15:25 PM  

Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons? It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.



Well, they could have gotten them from any number of places.

The CIA and the Mossad come to mind:


Jerusalem Post:

Report: Syrian rebel forces trained by West are moving towards Damascus

QUOTES:

"Guerrilla fighters trained by the West began moving towards Damascus in mid-August, French newspaper Le Figaro reported on Thursday.

Le Figaro reported that this is the reason behind the Assad regime's alleged chemical weapons attack in Damascus on Wednesday morning, as UN inspectors were allowed into the country to investigate allegations of WMD use.

"The rebels were trained for several months in a training camp on the Jordanian-Syrian border by CIA operatives, as well as Jordanian and Israeli commandos, the paper said.

"The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers crossed the border on August 17 into the Deraa region, and a second group was deployed on August 19, the paper reported.

END QUOTES


Note the dates?

So we've already chosen a "side", or at least our "leaders" have.

But if you're going to dive headfirst into yet another conflict that will likely cost Americans trillions of dollars and potentially tens of thousand of US lives, you need to have PUBLIC SUPPORT - and that comes from propaganda, and making it look like AssadCo "gassed his own people" would be just what the doctor ordered - especially given the prior (unproven) allegations, and Obama's "red line" warning.


/Keep your hands and legs inside the car
//Hold on tight
///And HAVE FUN!
 
2013-08-24 09:17:56 PM  

way south: I can't believe I'm going to say this but: for everything Al Queda is and has done, they aren't big on chemical weapons and don't possess an army of tanks or jets to cause mayhem with.
In this situation they've become the lesser of two evils and we really don't have to back them. We just have to make sure Assad tumbles down a flight of conveniently places stairs.

So we rattle his cage and let the people on the street can decide what they want from there. Maybe we can get a good foot in the door with the next government, or maybe we don't have to care if they keep their problems to themselves.

Its better than letting the use of WMDs go entirely ignored in a region that's loaded with these things.


They say they aren't big on chemical weapons, but in Afghanistan we captured video evidence of Al Qaeda testing various chemical agents on dogs. We do know Al Qaeda are masters of propaganda, as any successful terrorist organization must be, since they would be torn apart if they tried to fight any sort of conventional war. The Syrian military, on the other hand, is a conventional army, if a poorly equipped and organized one, and are more likely to carry out a coup against Assad than use nerve agents on their own people.

I think Al Qaeda has been gassing civilians and claiming the Syrian military did it. The Syrian military can only stop them in one way, by locating and capturing the gas stockpile. Once they did so, Al Qaeda had no choice but to abandon the stockpile (the only other option being to fight off the army, which would have left them getting torn apart for nothing, possibly even handing the intel they'd need to find other cells).

Of course, the Syrian military is getting thrashed by Al Qaeda's propaganda victories, and on the verge of getting crushed by the UN and the country handed over to Al Qaeda, which would have the same results as crushing Ian Smith's army in Zimbabwe and handing the country over to Robert Mugabe. No surprise they'd try to convince the UN that the gas came from anywhere other than the Syrian military's own stockpile that they had hoped to someday use on Israel.
 
2013-08-24 09:25:11 PM  

tirob: Syrian information minister says that his country has never used chemical weapons.

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-regime-never-used-chemical-weapons-mini st er-185932294.html

I hope you're telling the truth, Mr. al-Zohbi.



Whether or not he's telling "the truth" is irrelevant.

What matters is what the propaganda machine can make the befuddled public believe.
 
2013-08-24 09:43:50 PM  

Infernalist: Like him or hate him, this President knows how to do foreign policy.


That's damned funny.
 
2013-08-24 10:05:07 PM  

Tatterdemalian: The Syrian military, on the other hand, is a conventional army, if a poorly equipped and organized one, and are more likely to carry out a coup against Assad than use nerve agents on their own people.



So you think that this was likely a ruse - a "false-flag" operation designed to bring international heat on AssadCo?

I think the available evidence surely points to that scenario - especially when motive is considered.


Tatterdemalian: I think Al Qaeda has been gassing civilians and claiming the Syrian military did it.



So you think the "opposition", the "rebels" are run by Al Qaeda? That's an interesting scenario, especially knowing that the CIA and Mossad have been supplying, training (and likely arming) these "rebels".

[As an aside, I guess that means that paying federal taxes in the US is now illegal - as our tax dollars are going to support "terrorist organizations", and supporting terrorist organizations is a SYRIAS crime]

That reminds me, I need to call my accountant.


Tatterdemalian: No surprise they'd try to convince the UN that the gas came from anywhere other than the Syrian military's own stockpile that they had hoped to someday use on Israel.



Now there's a conundrum. Israel HATES  AssadCo, and they want him out, so they're supporting AssadCo's enemies to further that end.

Problem is, these "enemies" happen to be Al Qaeda (according to you), and Israel also HATES Al Qaeda (who doesn't, right?) yet they (and Uncle Sugardaddy) are arming, training and supplying these SAME PEOPLE that crashed the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and that we (the US, not Israel of course) have sacrificed countless lives and billions of dollars trying (in vain) to defeat in Afghanistan.

If that don't beat all.

So tell us, Tatterdemalian, what is Israel's game plan here? Clearly they're working against AssadCo at the moment - but what are they going to do when he is defeated, and suddenly AL-FARKING-QAEDA is in charge of Syria, and has access to all of Assad's toys?


/ The plot
// It thickens
/// Does it not???
 
2013-08-24 10:08:04 PM  
Amos Quito, I feel the need to help you out.

Just show up to these threads and say, 'the Jews did it' - and then leave.  You'll save yourself, and all the rest of us, an enormous amount of time.


/were you a toothache in a past life?
 
2013-08-24 10:21:31 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Amos Quito, I feel the need to help you out.

Just show up to these threads and say, 'the Jews did it' - and then leave.  You'll save yourself, and all the rest of us, an enormous amount of time.


/were you a toothache in a past life?



So what do you think, neighborhood watch?

What is Israel's long-term game plan here? I mean, the Jerusalem Post has just acknowledged that Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda, which of course is VERY bad news for Assad... but what will they do when they "win"?

Doesn't sound like an "easy fix", does it?
 
2013-08-24 10:32:03 PM  

Neighborhood Watch: Infernalist: Like him or hate him, this President knows how to do foreign policy.

That's damned funny.


A post where you didn't use the words "community organizer." Well done
 
2013-08-24 10:36:12 PM  

Amos Quito: Neighborhood Watch: Amos Quito, I feel the need to help you out.

Just show up to these threads and say, 'the Jews did it' - and then leave.  You'll save yourself, and all the rest of us, an enormous amount of time.


/were you a toothache in a past life?


So what do you think, neighborhood watch?

What is Israel's long-term game plan here? I mean, the Jerusalem Post has just acknowledged that Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda, which of course is VERY bad news for Assad... but what will they do when they "win"?

Doesn't sound like an "easy fix", does it?


From your article "The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers."

How did you get "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda" out of that?
 
2013-08-24 10:52:44 PM  

21-7-b: Amos Quito: Neighborhood Watch: Amos Quito, I feel the need to help you out.

Just show up to these threads and say, 'the Jews did it' - and then leave.  You'll save yourself, and all the rest of us, an enormous amount of time.


/were you a toothache in a past life?


So what do you think, neighborhood watch?

What is Israel's long-term game plan here? I mean, the Jerusalem Post has just acknowledged that Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda, which of course is VERY bad news for Assad... but what will they do when they "win"?

Doesn't sound like an "easy fix", does it?

From your article "The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers."

How did you get "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda" out of that?



From the Jerusalem Post article: "The rebels were trained for several months in a training camp on the Jordanian-Syrian border by CIA operatives, as well as Jordanian and Israeli commandos, the paper said."


That Al Qaeda is neck deep in opposing AssadCo is  - how do you say - common knowledge?


/ Just ask your pal Tatterdemalian
// Never-ending war
/// It's a gas
 
2013-08-24 10:56:43 PM  

Amos Quito: 21-7-b: Amos Quito: Neighborhood Watch: Amos Quito, I feel the need to help you out.

Just show up to these threads and say, 'the Jews did it' - and then leave.  You'll save yourself, and all the rest of us, an enormous amount of time.


/were you a toothache in a past life?


So what do you think, neighborhood watch?

What is Israel's long-term game plan here? I mean, the Jerusalem Post has just acknowledged that Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda, which of course is VERY bad news for Assad... but what will they do when they "win"?

Doesn't sound like an "easy fix", does it?

From your article "The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers."

How did you get "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda" out of that?


From the Jerusalem Post article: "The rebels were trained for several months in a training camp on the Jordanian-Syrian border by CIA operatives, as well as Jordanian and Israeli commandos, the paper said."


That Al Qaeda is neck deep in opposing AssadCo is  - how do you say - common knowledge?


/ Just ask your pal Tatterdemalian
// Never-ending war
/// It's a gas


From your article "The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers."

How did you get "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda" out of that?

Was there any truth to it, or did you just make it up?
 
2013-08-24 11:01:40 PM  

Reporters without Borders honors journalist and activist Mazen Darwish for his tireless engagement for freedom of expression in Syria. Since February, he has been held in a Syrian prison and reportedly tortured.

"In Syria, being a journalist is like walking through a minefield," said Mazen Darwish in a March 2011 interview in Damascus. There are many taboos, Darwish added, including now well-known political issues, human rights violations or the nature of the governing regime.

But Darwish also referenced other, less visible lines that journalists dare not cross, saying, "Nobody can tell when a mine is going to explode."

The 38-year-old reporter knows that all too well, having spent eight years fighting for free expression in Syria without caving to pressure from the government. At the end of 2004, he founded the Syrian Center for Media and Freedom of Expression (SCM). The SCM fought for journalists' rights and supported them in disputes with Syrian authorities through February 2012, when Darwish and several of his colleagues were arrested.

The SCM regularly published reports on free speech violations and on the working conditions Syrian journalists face. The group also collected and publicized cases of bloggers and other figures active in media who had gone missing. Finally, the SCM advocated reforming media law in Syria.

Darwish says Syrian leaders were hostile to civil society
The Munich-based Roland Berger Foundation honored Mazen Darwish and two other activists in 2011 with its Roland Berger Human Dignity Award. The foundation praised what it called Darwish's tireless efforts in support of press freedom and free speech.

In the past, Darwish tried to register the SCM in Syria as a non-governmental organization, but without success. He said that Syrian government leaders were extremely sensitive to, if not even hostile to, NGOs and other activities within civil society.

"It's as if you were committing some huge sin," Darwish said of authorities' suspicion.

Again and again, Syrian officials tried to disrupt the SCM's work, closing the center on a number of occasions. Darwish was also bullied by the state. He was imprisoned multiple times, had to check in with security authorities and was prevented from leaving the country. Nonetheless, he continued to promote his cause.

"I grew up in a political family," he said in reference to his perseverance. His father was persecuted for years on political grounds, and his mother was active in a number of pro-Palestinian organizations.

"When I finished my law studies, I went abroad for a while - to the Gulf states and to Europe. In France and in Germany, I got to know the work of civil society and democratic thinking," he said.

Those experiences led him to promote similar approaches in Syria.

Syria has been rocked by a rebel uprising since early 2011
Since the rebellion against President Bashar Assad's dictatorship began in early 2011, Syrian journalists and human rights activists live in more danger than before. Reporters Without Borders reports that 17 journalists have been killed this year in Syria, and that 21 have been arrested. The latter group includes Mazen Darwish, who serves as director of the Syrian Center for Media and Freedom of Expression.

On February 16, 2012, security forces stormed the SCM's office in Damascus, arresting Mazen Darwish and fellow activists. Where he has been held since is unknown. Contact with the outside world is prohibited, but Reporters Without Borders has obtained information that Darwish is being tortured and in a troubling state of health.

The SCM's Facebook page now displays a picture of Darwish along with fellow imprisoned activists. The journalist's friends and colleagues as well as Arab and international NGOs are demanding his release.


Mazen opposes Assad. Is he Al Qaeda?
 
2013-08-24 11:16:03 PM  

21-7-b: That Al Qaeda is neck deep in opposing AssadCo is - how do you say - common knowledge?


/ Just ask your pal Tatterdemalian
// Never-ending war
/// It's a gas

From your article "The first group of 300 handpicked Free Syrian Army soldiers."

How did you get "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda" out of that?

Was there any truth to it, or did you just make it up?



Oh, so you want to play stupid? Fine.

Meyer: US military intervention in Syria would help al Qaeda

QUOTE:

Syria expert Günter Meyer warns of a US military intervention in Syria and says it would only strengthen al Qaeda's position in the war-torn country.

DW: What's the likelihood for a US military intervention in Syria at the moment?

Günter Meyer:
A US military intervention is highly unlikely. That is apparent in President Barack Obama's very careful statements. On the other hand, US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Martin Dempsey has urgently warned about a military intervention. Even though it's possible to intervene right now, there is no exit strategy. The risk is very high that - once the regime has been toppled - power will fall to Islamists, namely al Qaeda fighters. After the Syrian army, they are by far the greatest military power in the country.


END QUOTE

See also the New York Times and others.

doblelol.com

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists - or you're with us AND the terrorists - or maybe you're against us, and with the terrorists, or maybe you're against us and the terrorists - And you can quote me on that."

--George W. Obama
 
2013-08-24 11:26:55 PM  
It's amazing how the rebels can sneak hundreds of 3 meter long chemical rockets so large they need to be transported on trucks, onto a heavily fortified mountain base garrisoned by the Syrian Army and known to contain chemical weapons, then launch those chemical rockets onto their own positions alongside a series of air strikes and artillery barrages from the Syrian Army on those exact same areas.

Seriously this is a no-brainer people.  This was Assad.  To deny it was the Syrian government is like denying that Al-Qaeda did 9/11.  All the evidence is there in plain sight.
 
2013-08-24 11:30:13 PM  

21-7-b: Mazen opposes Assad. Is he Al Qaeda?



Stalin opposed Hitler. Was he pro-democracy?
 
2013-08-24 11:32:01 PM  

bbcrackmonkey: It's amazing how the rebels can sneak hundreds of 3 meter long chemical rockets so large they need to be transported on trucks, onto a heavily fortified mountain base garrisoned by the Syrian Army and known to contain chemical weapons, then launch those chemical rockets onto their own positions alongside a series of air strikes and artillery barrages from the Syrian Army on those exact same areas.

Seriously this is a no-brainer people.  This was Assad.  To deny it was the Syrian government is like denying that Al-Qaeda did 9/11.  All the evidence is there in plain sight.



Yes, because EVERYONE KNOWS that chemical weapons require rockets in order to be effective.

Or do they?
 
2013-08-24 11:36:01 PM  
So, no evidence at all regarding "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda"?
 
2013-08-24 11:36:43 PM  
Chemical weapons require a delivery system.  I'd be more than happy to show you a detailed analysis of the rockets used in the chemical attacks inside Syria if you want links.  They're locally manufactured in Syria in the hundreds as per their numbering system, tube fired, have Russian-made air-burst fuses, and are designed to deliver a large payload.  They were probably originally designed as fuel-air explosives (or FAE) but were converted to have chemical payloads, likely using Tabun or Sarin nerve gas, which would match the symptoms of the people suffering from the attacks.

I'm not advocating that we depose Assad.  I honestly don't know what the best course of action is here :-(
 
2013-08-24 11:40:14 PM  
http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/25/preliminary-analysis-of-alleged - cw-munitions-used-in-syria/ 

Because of the proliferation of cellphones, journalists who collect, translate, and compile the information on the ground can rapidly find out what's happening.

To summarize the analysis of these munitions:
1.) It is likely a non-standard munition, not widely used or manufactured, but likely not an 'improvised' munition; its construction is uniform and sophisticated
2.) It is likely a tube-launched munition;
3.) It appears to have a diameter of approximately 300mm or more at its widest points (warhead base plate and tail fin assembly), and a total length of at least 2800mm.
4.) The nature of the design means they are unlikely to be particularly long-range, nor particularly accurate.
5.) The numbering system indicates they are produced at least in the hundreds
6.) The detonator type indicates they are likely air burst munitions, detonating before they strike the ground
7.) They are designed to deliver a large volume payload, probably originally for fuel-air explosives, but could have been modified for a chemical payload
8.) The munitions in the videos and pictures appear to have functioned and delivered their payload 
9.) The impact craters around the munitions are quite small, which rules out a large HE (high explosive) charge, but possibly indicating a smaller HE charge combined with a secondary, non-explosive payload.
 
2013-08-24 11:46:29 PM  

21-7-b: So, no evidence at all regarding "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda"?


i1121.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-24 11:54:06 PM  
Oh no, a guy who has just proved he likes to talk out of his ass is directing his ass talking to me. I'm sure to give his attempt to belittle me a lot of weight
 
2013-08-25 12:00:38 AM  

21-7-b: Oh no, a guy who has just proved he likes to talk out of his ass is directing his ass talking to me. I'm sure to give his attempt to belittle me a lot of weight



You ask questions, you get answers with cites, and you ignore them because they don't suit your agenda.

It's a pity that you and those of your ilk are not a rarity.
 
2013-08-25 12:02:09 AM  
You haven't provided the slightest evidence that "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda." You talk out of your ass
 
2013-08-25 12:25:25 AM  
I herd they got teh yellow cake from the Nigeria and such.

This all sounds totally legit.

WMDs FTW
 
2013-08-25 12:33:01 AM  
You can make the stuff in a bathroom. As long as you don't give a damn about quality or safety.
 
2013-08-25 12:40:41 AM  

21-7-b: You haven't provided the slightest evidence that "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda." You talk out of your ass



Heh!

DERP!


Just to throw fuel on the fire of your Hasbarat squirm, what do you make of this,  21-7-b?

 Israel says Syria regime used chemical weapons

QUOTE

JERUSALEM: Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said on Wednesday that the Syrian government had used chemical weapons, backing opposition claims of multiple deadly strikes around Damascus.

"In Syria, the regime has used chemical weapons and it's not the first time," Yaalon told Israeli defence correspondents.
"It's a life and death struggle between a regime based on the Alawite minority and a disparate opposition composed of Sunni Muslims, some Muslim Brotherhood members, others linked to Al-Qaeda.

"We don't see any end to the fighting -- even the fall of (President Bashar) al-Assad won't bring it to a halt, there will a bloody settling of accounts over a long period," the minister said.

"We could see the implosion of Syria with the Alawites controlling the western part -- the coastal region and a corridor to Damascus -- and the Kurds and Sunnis controlling the east and north."

The head of research at Israeli military intelligence, Brigadier General Itai Brun, already said in April that he believed the Syrian regime had made use of its chemical weapons stockpiles against the rebels.

Syria's main opposition group accused the government of "massacring" more than 1,300 people in chemical weapons attacks near Damascus on Wednesday, saying many of the victims choked to death.

The accusation came as a team of UN inspectors was in Syria to probe previous allegations of chemical weapons strikes levelled against both sides during the 29-month conflict.

Western governments demanded immediate access for the inspectors to investigate the new allegations. Russia, a longstanding ally of the Damascus regime, echoed the call for an inquiry but said it suspected a "provocation" by the opposition and its foreign backers.

END QUOTE

Whar "evidence"? Whar?

And back to the thrust of my argument: WTF do YOU suppose Izzy's strategy will be in dealing with the outcome - they are clearly backing the "rebels" (including Al Qaeda) to shiat-can Assad - but what WILL you do about those that displace him?

Are you planning to insert a Mubarak-like puppet, or what?

Wait, why am I asking YOU?

Hell, you can't even formulate a cogent discussion on Fark, lol!


/Derp on, 21-7-b
 
2013-08-25 01:20:55 AM  
Just because you underline, embolden or enlarge the words "al qaeda" does not support the claim that you pulled out of your ass that "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda."

You just make yourself look extremely naive, which I guess you are what with your various fixations.

If I had a dog, which I don't at the moment, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that animal was aware of the fact that there were al qaeda fighters in syria - You haven't stumbled on some super-secret conspiracy with that. The fact that you seem to think you have shows how naive you are. The fact that you jump from something anyone with even the slightest understanding of events in syria knows - even if you don't know that - to your claim "Israel, the Mossad and the CIA are backing Al Qaeda," your desire to stand by the claim at all costs, and your total inability to back it up, shows how desperate you are

It's ok.
 
2013-08-25 01:23:43 AM  

21-7-b: The argument is to arm some of those groups fighting Assad - not all of them. I haven't seen anyone argue that we should arm the Al Qaeda affiliated groups. The argument is that we could supply arms that we could prevent falling into the hands of al qaeda affiliated groups


By those who want to pretend there's something we can do to improve the situation.  That doesn't mean it works.
 
2013-08-25 02:05:49 AM  

Loren: 21-7-b: The argument is to arm some of those groups fighting Assad - not all of them. I haven't seen anyone argue that we should arm the Al Qaeda affiliated groups. The argument is that we could supply arms that we could prevent falling into the hands of al qaeda affiliated groups

By those who want to pretend there's something we can do to improve the situation.  That doesn't mean it works.


I think know what you mean: There are already a lot of people trying to improve the situation, and so far it's people trying to improve the situation, each from their own point of view, that has got us to where we are, which is a mess. That's why I think we need to choose against both the bloody tyrant and the bloodthristy fanatics, both of whom can only govern through repression
 
2013-08-25 08:45:09 AM  

Amos Quito: tirob: Syrian information minister says that his country has never used chemical weapons.

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-regime-never-used-chemical-weapons-mini st er-185932294.html

I hope you're telling the truth, Mr. al-Zohbi.


Whether or not he's telling "the truth" is irrelevant.



I think that the truth has a good bit of relevance here.
 
2013-08-25 08:56:31 AM  

Amos Quito: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons? It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Well, they could have gotten them from any number of places.


Could have.  Really.

We don't even know if the rebels ever *did* have chemical weapons, and you're already speculating where they got them from.
 
2013-08-25 09:53:37 AM  

Amos Quito: [As an aside, I guess that means that paying federal taxes in the US is now illegal - as our tax dollars are going to support "terrorist organizations", and supporting terrorist organizations is a SYRIAS crime]

That reminds me, I need to call my accountant.


If you earn enough money to be subject to federal tax liability, and if you plan on not filing or underpaying based on this logic, I don't think that an accountant is going to be of much help to you.  What you would need is a lawyer who specializes in defending people accused of criminal tax fraud.

Best of luck whatever you decide.
 
2013-08-25 06:47:35 PM  

tirob: Amos Quito: Ambivalence: Where the hell would rebels even get chemical weapons? It's not like you can order them from Amazon (you can't, right?).

That's not suspicious at ALL.


Well, they could have gotten them from any number of places.

Could have.  Really.

We don't even know if the rebels ever *did* have chemical weapons, and you're already speculating where they got them from.



Japan Times - July 10, 2013 (please note the date)

Russia says Syrian rebels produced sarin, used it in attack


UNITED NATIONS - Russia's U.N. ambassador said Tuesday that Russian experts determined that Syrian rebels made sarin nerve gas and used it in a deadly chemical weapon attack outside Aleppo in March.

Ambassador Vitaly Churkin blamed opposition fighters for the March 19 attack in the government-controlled Aleppo suburb of Khan al-Assal, which he said killed 26 people, including 16 military personnel, and injured 86 others.

The rebels have blamed the government for the attack. The U.S., Britain and France have said they have seen no evidence to indicate that the opposition has acquired or used chemical weapons.

In Washington, White House spokesman Jay Carney said, "We have yet to see any evidence that backs up the assertion that anybody besides the Syrian government has had the ability to use chemical weapons or has used chemical weapons."

Churkin told reporters after delivering an 80-page report to Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad asked Russia, its closest ally, to investigate the attack after a U.N. team of chemical weapons experts was unable to enter the country in a dispute over the probe's scope.

Acting U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Rosemary DiCarlo said Assad should now allow U.N. chemical weapons experts into the country to conduct an investigation of the Khan al-Assal incident as well as other allegations, by the U.S., U.K., and France, of chemical weapons use in the conflict.
The samples taken from the impact site of the gas-laden projectile were analyzed at a Russian laboratory certified by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, Churkin said.

He said the analysis showed that the unguided Basha'ir-3 rocket that hit Khan al-Assal was not a military-standard chemical weapon.
Churkin said the results indicate it "was not industrially manufactured and was filled with sarin." He said the samples indicated the sarin and the projectile were produced in makeshift "cottage industry" conditions, and the projectile "is not a standard one for chemical use."

The absence of chemical stabilizers, which are needed for long-term storage and later use, indicated its "possibly recent production," Churkin said.

"Therefore, there is every reason to believe that it was the armed opposition fighters who used the chemical weapons in Khan al-Assal," Churkin said.

"According to information at our disposal," he added, "the production of Basha'ir-3 unguided projectiles was started in February 2013 by the so-called Basha'ir al-Nasr brigade affiliated with the Free Syrian Army."

But I'm sure your outraged Syrian "friends" know more - bekuz they're Syrians.
 
2013-08-25 07:35:46 PM  

Amos Quito: tirob:

We don't even know if the rebels ever *did* have chemical weapons, and you're already speculating where they got them from.

Japan Times [story]

"Therefore, there is every reason to believe that it was the armed opposition fighters who used the chemical weapons in Khan al-Assal," Churkin said.

But I'm sure your outraged Syrian "friends" know more - bekuz they're Syrians.


I don't know if my outraged Syrian sources know more than a Russian diplomat, no.  Or whether that diplomat is telling the truth.  I will concede that this is what I mean when I say evidence.  So I guess that means I need to provide evidence too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21841217
(dated March 13, 2013)

The rebel side accused the Syrian government of being behind the Khan al-Assal attack:

Quote:  Senior rebel and spokesman for the Higher Military Council in Aleppo Qassim Saadeddine said the government had carried out a chemical attack.

"We were hearing reports from early this morning about a regime attack on Khan al-Assal, and we believe they fired a Scud with chemical agents," he told Reuters news agency.

"Then suddenly we learned that the regime was turning these reports against us. The rebels were not behind this attack."

The Aleppo Media Centre, which is affiliated to the rebels, said there had been cases of "suffocation and poison'' among civilians in Khan al-Assal after a surface-to-surface missile was fired at the area.

It said this was "most likely" due to use of "poisonous gases" by government forces.

Close quote

Also according to this source, "both a chemical weapons monitoring body and the US said there was no evidence [chemical weapons] had been used."

Dated 19 March 2013
 
2013-08-25 07:39:44 PM  
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21841217
(dated March 13, 2013)

Should read:  (dated March 19, 2013)
 
2013-08-25 09:04:29 PM  

tirob: Amos Quito: tirob:

We don't even know if the rebels ever *did* have chemical weapons, and you're already speculating where they got them from.

Japan Times [story]

"Therefore, there is every reason to believe that it was the armed opposition fighters who used the chemical weapons in Khan al-Assal," Churkin said.

But I'm sure your outraged Syrian "friends" know more - bekuz they're Syrians.

I don't know if my outraged Syrian sources know more than a Russian diplomat, no.  Or whether that diplomat is telling the truth.  I will concede that this is what I mean when I say evidence.  So I guess that means I need to provide evidence too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21841217
(dated March 13, 2013)

The rebel side accused the Syrian government of being behind the Khan al-Assal attack:

Quote:  Senior rebel and spokesman for the Higher Military Council in Aleppo Qassim Saadeddine said the government had carried out a chemical attack.

"We were hearing reports from early this morning about a regime attack on Khan al-Assal, and we believe they fired a Scud with chemical agents," he told Reuters news agency.

"Then suddenly we learned that the regime was turning these reports against us. The rebels were not behind this attack."

The Aleppo Media Centre, which is affiliated to the rebels, said there had been cases of "suffocation and poison'' among civilians in Khan al-Assal after a surface-to-surface missile was fired at the area.

It said this was "most likely" due to use of "poisonous gases" by government forces.

Close quote

Also according to this source, "both a chemical weapons monitoring body and the US said there was no evidence [chemical weapons] had been used."

Dated 19 March 2013



So you are dubious as to whether the Russian is telling the truth - presumably because the Russians have been allied with AssadCo?

And of course that was with regard to events that happened earlier this year.

But there are SOME who are already declaring that the most recent attack was not only Sarin - but that it was perpetrated by AssadCo - AS IF this were an established fact:

PM: Israel's 'finger on the pulse' of Syria developments, if necessary will also be 'on the trigger'


Highlights:


Syria's use of chemical weapons against its own people "simply demonstrates" what will happen if Iran gets even deadlier weapons, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Sunday before a meeting with French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius.

What we see in Syria is how extremist regimes have no reservations whatsoever about using these weapons even when they use it against innocent civilians, against their own people," he said. "In the end, the extremists use these weapons. So we must prevent them from having these weapons."

Following his meeting with Netanyahu, Fabius held a press conference in which he said that there was "no doubt" that Assad regime used chemical weapons in an attack last week in a Damascus suburb..

"I can also tell you that when three is a crime like this, it is inconceivable that it will go without a strong response," he said. Fabius said the response will be "determined and hard," but declined to go into further details."

[Does that Frenchie know how to kiss Israeli Ass or WHAT??? And of course the US is quickly falling in line]

More highlights

"Netanyahu said Israel and France share an interest in seeing the "tragic" events in Syria come to an end.

"I think what is going on there is a crime committed by the Syrian regime against its own people. It's truly shocking," he said. adding that the Assad regime was being actively aided and abetted by Iran and Hezbollah.

{{ HERE IT COMES! }}

"In fact, Assad's regime has become a full Iranian client and Syria has become Iran's testing ground," Netanyahu said. "Now the whole world is watching. Iran is watching and it wants to see what would be the reaction on the use of chemical weapons.

END QUOTES

You doubt Russia because Russia is allied with Syria?

Do you know who is joined at the hip with the Zionist Regime?

As I have said from the outset, not only is there ZERO evidence that AssadCo launched this attack, there are a multitude of reasons to believe that was a fake - a ruse - a false-flag designed to drag the US into the conflict.

One more tidbit FTA: "Israel is not intervening in the Syrian civil war, the defense minister stressed, saying, "We have the red lines that we set, and we stand behind them."

So in the grand Zionist Tradition, Israel is AGAIN skirting the risks, and expects the US and others to do its dirty work.  Why should they get a bunch of nice Jewish boys killed?

Ready for another war for Israel, tirob?

Yea, that's it. Another war that Izzy is bizzy dragging Uncle Sugardaddy into fighting for them.


/Now you go ahead and whine about my "anti-Semitism"
//You KNOW you want to - so go ahead
///It'll entertain me
 
2013-08-25 09:42:29 PM  

Amos Quito: So you are dubious as to whether the Russian is telling the truth


I don't know.  Even if he is, the evidence you present does not necessarily show that the missile the Russians say they tested belonged to the rebels.  He described the missile as "not a military-standard chemical weapon" and "not industrially manufactured and...filled with sarin."  It could have belonged to the government, could have belonged to the rebels.

Amos Quito: there are SOME who are already declaring that the most recent attack was not only Sarin - but that it was perpetrated by AssadCo - AS IF this were an established fact:


I am not one of them.  Yet.  I am, it is true, skeptical of claims that the rebels could have caused, with chemical weapons, casualties on the scale that appears to have happened at Ghouta.

Amos Quito: As I have said from the outset, not only is there ZERO evidence that AssadCo launched this attack, there are a multitude of reasons to believe that was a fake - a ruse - a false-flag designed to drag the US into the conflict.


You have said that from the outset.  As I have pointed out before, the sources I cite who disagree with you have some credibility for me because they were obviously *not* trying to influence the US.

Amos Quito: /Now you go ahead and whine about my "anti-Semitism"
//You KNOW you want to - so go ahead


You are telling me what I think and you know damned good and well I have never accused you or anyone else here of anti-Semitism for critiquing Israeli government policy.

Protip:  You critique Israeli government policy a good bit here.  It is your privilege, but it also has the effect of bringing that policy before this audience.  Some deluded people might even think that you're running an ad campaign for it.
 
2013-08-25 10:16:04 PM  

tirob: Amos Quito: So you are dubious as to whether the Russian is telling the truth

I don't know.  Even if he is, the evidence you present does not necessarily show that the missile the Russians say they tested belonged to the rebels.  He described the missile as "not a military-standard chemical weapon" and "not industrially manufactured and...filled with sarin."  It could have belonged to the government, could have belonged to the rebels.

Amos Quito: there are SOME who are already declaring that the most recent attack was not only Sarin - but that it was perpetrated by AssadCo - AS IF this were an established fact:

I am not one of them.  Yet.  I am, it is true, skeptical of claims that the rebels could have caused, with chemical weapons, casualties on the scale that appears to have happened at Ghouta.

Amos Quito: As I have said from the outset, not only is there ZERO evidence that AssadCo launched this attack, there are a multitude of reasons to believe that was a fake - a ruse - a false-flag designed to drag the US into the conflict.

You have said that from the outset.  As I have pointed out before, the sources I cite who disagree with you have some credibility for me because they were obviously *not* trying to influence the US.

Amos Quito: /Now you go ahead and whine about my "anti-Semitism"
//You KNOW you want to - so go ahead

You are telling me what I think and you know damned good and well I have never accused you or anyone else here of anti-Semitism for critiquing Israeli government policy.

Protip:  You critique Israeli government policy a good bit here.  It is your privilege, but it also has the effect of bringing that policy before this audience.  Some deluded people might even think that you're running an ad campaign for it.


Check this out - and note the date of publication: JANUARY 28, 2013

Hacked e-mails reveal 'Washington approved' plan to stage Syria chemical attack

QUOTE:

"On Saturday, Cyber War News released a cache of e-mails allegedly hacked by someone in Malaysia from a British private defense contractor called Britam Defence.

"One of the e-mails contains a discussion between Britam's Business Development Director David Goulding and Philip Doughty, company founder. In the exchange, it's revealed that there is a plan to unleash chemical weapons in Syria in order to blame it on the Bashar Al Assad regime to justify a direct intervention by U.S. and NATO forces in the country's civil war. The plan, thought up by the government of Qatar according to the e-mail, is "approved by Washington."

END QUOTE

Again, this was published in JANUARY 2013 - before the FIRST allegations of a Syrian CW attack - but AFTER Obama's "red line" speech.

Just a coincidence, a lucky guess, right?


/So many
//Coincidences
///So many

Remember the BushCo / Zionist lies told to get us chomping at the bit to attack Saddam?

Remember?
 
2013-08-25 10:19:36 PM  
Reality can be one ugly biatch.

Sometimes it sucks to be right, tirob.
 
2013-08-26 02:42:16 AM  

Amos Quito: Check this out - and note the date of publication: JANUARY 28, 2013

Again, this was published in JANUARY 2013 - before the FIRST allegations of a Syrian CW attack - but AFTER Obama's "red line" speech.

Just a coincidence, a lucky guess, right?


Apparently neither of those.  According to the Daily Mail, which itself published the "email" on January 29, 2013, it is a hoax.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-2311199/Britam-Defence-David -G oulding-Philip-Doughty.html

"We now accept that email was fabricated and acknowledge there is no truth in any suggestion that Britam or its directors were willing to consider taking part in such a plot, which may have led to an atrocity.
We apologise to each of them and have agreed to pay substantial damages"


Amos Quito: Reality can be one ugly biatch.

Sometimes it sucks to be right, tirob.


It appears you were wrong this time.
 
2013-08-26 02:47:00 AM  
Sorry if that came out too small.

Should read:  "We now accept that the email was fabricated and acknowledge there is no truth in any suggestion that Britam or its directors were willing to consider taking part in such a plot, which may have led to an atrocity.

We apologise to each of them and have agreed to pay substantial damages."
 
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