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(Slate)   Californians love overpriced, unreliable cars   (slate.com) divider line 118
    More: Obvious, Californians, Model S, Dodge Challenger, plug-in electric car, leading indicators, light trucks, Chevy Tahoe  
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10356 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2013 at 2:26 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-24 11:08:08 AM
img.gawkerassets.com

The Howard.
 
2013-08-24 11:56:22 AM
If I could afford a $80-100,000 for a car I would buy one, but I can't so I won't.  Electric cars are becoming mainstream, I see more and more Nissan Leafs on the road every day.  That is good. The Tesla will create some great new technologies I'm sure but it will never be mainstream.  It has a chance to become as popular as the Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series, but I see that as the maximum volume for their business model.
 
2013-08-24 01:24:45 PM
Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.
 
2013-08-24 01:59:08 PM

Tom_Slick: If I could afford a $80-100,000 for a car I would buy one, but I can't so I won't.  Electric cars are becoming mainstream, I see more and more Nissan Leafs on the road every day.  That is good. The Tesla will create some great new technologies I'm sure but it will never be mainstream.  It has a chance to become as popular as the Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series, but I see that as the maximum volume for their business model.


Well, people buying Teslas for $80K-$100K help advance the technology to the point where we'll have electric cars in the $20K price range.  It's like any other technology: the early adapters pay for its advancement.

Subby's cheap shot on Tesla seems especially tone-deaf, since the consensus I've seen on the Tesla Roadster is that it's the first all-electric car that performs as well as most gas-powered cars.  It's the first electric car that stands on its merit and you might want just because it's an awesome car, not because you want to make a statement and drive an electric car.
 
2013-08-24 02:06:07 PM

jake_lex: Tom_Slick: If I could afford a $80-100,000 for a car I would buy one, but I can't so I won't.  Electric cars are becoming mainstream, I see more and more Nissan Leafs on the road every day.  That is good. The Tesla will create some great new technologies I'm sure but it will never be mainstream.  It has a chance to become as popular as the Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series, but I see that as the maximum volume for their business model.

Well, people buying Teslas for $80K-$100K help advance the technology to the point where we'll have electric cars in the $20K price range.  It's like any other technology: the early adapters pay for its advancement.

Subby's cheap shot on Tesla seems especially tone-deaf, since the consensus I've seen on the Tesla Roadster is that it's the first all-electric car that performs as well as most gas-powered cars.  It's the first electric car that stands on its merit and you might want just because it's an awesome car, not because you want to make a statement and drive an electric car.


I get that the Tesla will advance the technology, but the gist of the article was that the Tesla was becoming mainstream, when I think of mainstream cars I think of the Accord, Camry, Fusion etc. not an $80,000 luxury car.
 
2013-08-24 02:31:02 PM
6000sux.jpg
 
2013-08-24 02:32:28 PM
That would be Mercedes-Benz.  Their quality has plummeted while their prices have sky-rocketed
 
2013-08-24 02:32:56 PM
Funnt how there's been a spate of negative headlines on Fark lately about electric and hybrid cars.  It's almost as if the oil industry was paying people to submit them.  But, of course, that would never happen.
 
2013-08-24 02:33:28 PM
As the owner of a Mustang California Special, I'm getting a kick......


/very reliable
//and fast
///I have a small penis.
 
2013-08-24 02:36:14 PM
Test drove Tesla this week. Putting deposit down today. ~2 months delivery. Can't wait.
 
2013-08-24 02:36:30 PM
Subby is trolling. The Model S got a 99 out of 100 from Consumer Reports, Motor Trend car of the year and maxed out the NHTSA safety rating. Like it or not, nothing there would make anyone think the car is unreliable. Overpriced? Well, given the high-standard of quality and safety, that's a very subjective thing to say. Like many others have said, if I had the cash, I would buy one, and having said that, I would not buy an equally priced BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, or even those manufacturers cheaper models for that matter.
 
2013-08-24 02:38:23 PM
Was subby touched in the bathing suit area by a Tesla once?
 
2013-08-24 02:39:04 PM
Isn't this how everything cool in the auto industry goes, though?  Neat new features start out as big-ticket items in high-end luxury cars so that people who are willing to shell out $80k for a car can pay for the research, design and implementation of the new feature and once it's popular enough that the company can benefit from economies of scale, it trickles down into the models that the rest of us can afford.  There was a time when only rich people could have power windows or keyless entry.  I don't see why it would be any different with electric engines.
 
2013-08-24 02:39:11 PM

The article is about tesla, not GM.

p

/So far it sounds like they've been knocking it out of the park.
/too rich for my blood, but its good to see electrics gaining a foothold.
 
2013-08-24 02:39:26 PM
I remember hearing about how all of those Prius owners would one day be sorry.  I get it.  It's new.  Try not to be afraid.  It's only a car.
 
2013-08-24 02:39:37 PM

lilbjorn: Funnt how there's been a spate of negative headlines on Fark lately about electric and hybrid cars.  It's almost as if the oil industry was paying people to submit them.  But, of course, that would never happen.


Your foiled hat is showing.
 
2013-08-24 02:40:14 PM
Anyone know if Tesla is looking into the new Formula E racing series? I doubt they would go in as a competitor, but I could see them sponsoring a race. Toyota had the naming rights for the Sonoma race before they were in the NASCAR cup series.

I'd like to take the hyperloop down to the Tesla 200 in LA. Then I will know that I'm living in the future.
 
2013-08-24 02:41:02 PM
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2013-08-24 02:43:03 PM

cygnusx13: Test drove Tesla this week. Putting deposit down today. ~2 months delivery. Can't wait.


Not to get your hopes up but they have been known to arrive faster than projected.
 
GBB
2013-08-24 02:43:51 PM
i1.ytimg.com
"Yes. Yes, this is the one.  I saw THREE of these parked outside of the local Starbucks this morning, which tells me one thing."
 
2013-08-24 02:44:01 PM
I've heard this. Keeping 2 mo in my head for upside surprise.
 
2013-08-24 02:48:17 PM

dkimball: That would be Mercedes-Benz.  Their quality has plummeted while their prices have sky-rocketed


Who cares about quality when you can download parts?
 
2013-08-24 02:49:36 PM
Whatever, suckers.  I've got my eye on this beauty that has space age design and 70mpg.   Put my deposit down and the dealer assures me the car company will roll out production real soon!

www.onehellofaneye.com
 
2013-08-24 02:55:19 PM
subbyisretarded.jpg

Consumer Reports = Best car ever tested. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/09/autos/tesla-model-s-consumer-reports/ i ndex.html
 
2013-08-24 02:56:18 PM

ShawnDoc: Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.


Well, you sure seem to be on top of what is actually going on in the automotive world. Expensive and unreliable is certainly the reality for Volkswagen right now

/end sarcasm
 
2013-08-24 02:56:45 PM

kendelrio: As the owner of a Mustang California Special, I'm getting a kick......


/very reliable
//and fast
///I have a small penis.


Which one, the old one or the new one? If the former, great car. If not, you spent a lot of money for what amounts to a paint job.
 
2013-08-24 03:00:07 PM

lilbjorn: Funnt how there's been a spate of negative headlines on Fark lately about electric and hybrid cars.  It's almost as if the oil industry was paying people to submit them.  But, of course, that would never happen.


The great thing about being so disconnected from reality is that you turn more people towards the technology you're trying to astroturf than you turn against.

Tesla and electric cars have become propaganda proof, and now the PR firms are only dooming "Detroit".
 
2013-08-24 03:02:44 PM
All I know is that when in SoCal in business, my rental Taurus or Charger sticks out like a sore thumb. Does anyone buy American any more or is it state law requiring residents to drive foreign make cars?

/Yes, I know where most Accords, Camrys etc are built.
 
2013-08-24 03:03:03 PM
Does this mean that Californians have stopped buying Priuses? Because I hate those things.

/Seriously, a "gearshift" the size of a soda straw that you push forward for reverse, and back for drive? Fark you, Toyota.
//Not all hybrids suck, but they're a real Rube Goldberg solution. You want 50 mpg? Get a small car with a small engine. Heck, I get 35 mpg in an Accord, which is the biggest car I've ever owned.
 
2013-08-24 03:06:47 PM
I'd love to know how many of those cars are second cars for the household.  I'd also love to see the zip codes where those cars are being sold.  As was mentioned unthread, the Tesals are actually getting some impressive ratings for safety and reliability, there is still the inherent battery life/ recharge time issue but that will be an issue with all electrics until someone invents a battery that can push a car two hundred plus miles on a charge AND recharge as fast as it takes me to pump thirteen gallons into my gas buggy.

So who is the target market for the Tesla?  Rich people of course.  The kind of people who would otherwise have a Porsche or possibly even a Ferrari in the garage.  What do they use these cars for?  Impressing the shiat out of girls and their financial inferiors.  They can drive the short commute to work, have the valet plug it in, and it's ready for the jaunt from Santa Monica to Malibu at the end of the day.  This is a car that says "I am rich, AND I care about my carbon footprint blah blah blah."

If I could afford hundred thousand dollar toys, I might get one too.  Hopefully they won't hoard ALL the tech they develop and sit on the most useful patents like a troll.  I see the need for an edge, but it would be nice to see some of the innovation leak out to other companies trying to design cars for other markets.  Sort of the way Volvo and Mercedes used to eventually share things like air-bag and seat-belt tech.
 
2013-08-24 03:07:06 PM

Pockafrusta: subbyisretarded.jpg

Consumer Reports = Best car ever tested. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/09/autos/tesla-model-s-consumer-reports/ i ndex.html



It's interesting to me that there are so many other equally expensive--of not more expensive--cars that don't rate anywhere close to the Tesla for safety. It's nice to see an automobile manufacturer actually care about making a safe car and not offer excuses as to why they can't do it.

Hopefully, some of the Tesla engineering safety advances will become available in less expensive cars.
 
2013-08-24 03:08:47 PM
Actually, some of us couldn't give a rat's @$$ about any freakin' car. Some of us are stupid enough to be happy getting around on a bicycle.

Work and back every day.

Grocery shopping yea!

A ride to the local watering hole? You bet.

Chances of getting pulled over on my way home? Nyet.

I love my bicycle as much as many of you love your cars.

I don't care if you think it's strange.

I don't care if you think I don't belong on the road.

Though, if you do, you should sell your car and take the bus. You don't belong on the road.

/threadjack
 
2013-08-24 03:11:17 PM
Gotta love watching tiny women driving around alone in massive SUVs that they cannot handle with gas at the prices they are at.

I love CA, but man, people are f'in stupid.
 
2013-08-24 03:11:50 PM

TwowheelinTim: Actually, some of us couldn't give a rat's @$$ about any freakin' car. Some of us are stupid enough to be happy getting around on a bicycle.

Work and back every day.

Grocery shopping yea!

A ride to the local watering hole? You bet.

Chances of getting pulled over on my way home? Nyet.

I love my bicycle as much as many of you love your cars.

I don't care if you think it's strange.

I don't care if you think I don't belong on the road.

Though, if you do, you should sell your car and take the bus. You don't belong on the road.

/threadjack


that or maybe DUI ?
 
2013-08-24 03:12:13 PM

cygnusx13: Test drove Tesla this week. Putting deposit down today. ~2 months delivery. Can't wait.


The factory is in Fremont, CA and we live in San Francisco.  We picked it up at the factory and drove it the long way home.  Down the East Bay and up to SF via I 280.  An "E-Ticket Ride" as some older folks would say.  Get the "S" package.  The anticipation is worth it.  Enjoy.
 
2013-08-24 03:14:49 PM

jake_lex: Subby's cheap shot on Tesla seems especially tone-deaf, since the consensus I've seen on the Tesla Roadster is that it's the first all-electric car that performs as well as most gas-powered cars


Though I've not driven one, I've been to the nearby showroom to sit inside and they are certainly luxurious. I see about one a day on our California freeways.  They're quiet rocket ships.
 
2013-08-24 03:15:27 PM

lilbjorn: Funnt how there's been a spate of negative headlines on Fark lately about electric and hybrid cars.  It's almost as if the oil industry was paying people to submit them.  But, of course, that would never happen.


They don't have to. It's a lot of old people. Old, useless people who have nothing better to do than cry about how things are turning worse.
 
2013-08-24 03:15:44 PM
Adolf Oliver Nipples:Which one, the old one or the new one? If the former, great car. If not, you spent a lot of money for what amounts to a paint job.

2012. I dunno what you mean about a paint job. I have had 0 problems out of it. Please expand on this.
 
2013-08-24 03:18:20 PM

kendelrio: ///I have a small penis.


As do almost all of the pretty boys your Mom calls friends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbTW928sMU
 
2013-08-24 03:19:51 PM

dirkfunk: ShawnDoc: Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.

Well, you sure seem to be on top of what is actually going on in the automotive world. Expensive and unreliable is certainly the reality for Volkswagen right now

/end sarcasm


Chill, man, he's kidding. Or are you just a defensive widdle subby?
 
2013-08-24 03:19:57 PM

Zizzowop: Subby is trolling. The Model S got a 99 out of 100 from Consumer Reports, Motor Trend car of the year and maxed out the NHTSA safety rating. Like it or not, nothing there would make anyone think the car is unreliable. Overpriced? Well, given the high-standard of quality and safety, that's a very subjective thing to say. Like many others have said, if I had the cash, I would buy one, and having said that, I would not buy an equally priced BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, or even those manufacturers cheaper models for that matter.


Speaking of safety: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-20/teslas-model-s-sedan- d estroys-safety-tests-dot-dot-dot-literally
 
2013-08-24 03:20:24 PM
I want one so. But, I'm thwarted by geography and money. Some day.
 
2013-08-24 03:21:48 PM
In a few years Tesla will take the reputation established off the model S and start releasing cars priced in the $30k zone. Like this one, which I would consider buying when my A3 is getting old... (and yes, farkers, I drive like a dick in that thing).

s1.cdn.autoevolution.com
 
2013-08-24 03:22:37 PM

mbillips: Does this mean that Californians have stopped buying Priuses? Because I hate those things.


Lol, no. The article states that the Prius is the top selling car in the state.

Figures. They probably prefer macbooks and iphones as well.

California needs its own tag, but I guess we already have the 'dumbass' tag.
 
2013-08-24 03:26:12 PM

kendelrio: Adolf Oliver Nipples:Which one, the old one or the new one? If the former, great car. If not, you spent a lot of money for what amounts to a paint job.

2012. I dunno what you mean about a paint job. I have had 0 problems out of it. Please expand on this.


The original California Special was a Mustang that was modified with Shelby parts such that it was an amalgamation of a stock Mustang and a 350GT. To this day it stands out if you're lucky enough to see one.

The current California Special is more or less a paint job, just one more Mustang in a sea of them.
 
2013-08-24 03:32:40 PM
Delay:As do almost all of the pretty boys your Mom calls friends.


Being as I buried my mom last week, thanks.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: the current California Special is more or less a paint job, just one more Mustang in a sea of them.


I have looked up the original, they were bad mofo's. Have you checked the specs on the '12 CS? Lots more to it than a paintjob.
 
2013-08-24 03:32:47 PM
Californians love overpriced, unreliable cars
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-24 03:37:40 PM

mjohnson71: All I know is that when in SoCal in business, my rental Taurus or Charger sticks out like a sore thumb. Does anyone buy American any more or is it state law requiring residents to drive foreign make cars?

/Yes, I know where most Accords, Camrys etc are built.


It's an income thing.  California has high cost of living, so higher wages as well (kinda) and so what most of the country considers "expensive" is far more common.  I can't speak to soCal, but in norcal the "average" car is an import brand like BMW, Merc, Lexus, Rover, Porsche.  Things that would be taken as status symbols in many parts of the country are considered base models in NorCal.

When I lived in the bay area a few years back, one of my neighbors had a BMW art car.  A totally unique paint job done by some famous artist.  My other neighbor had a rolls, and the one across the street had a collection of exotics.  Including an F40 and an original Shelby Cobra.

None of these people were "rich", except by Fark standards.  They weren't hurting, but if you called them 1%ers they would laugh in your face and dismiss you as an idiot.

I think the Tesla S is a bad ass car, and in 5-10 years, if they hold up half as well as they are advertised to do, I'll be getting whatever the new model is then.  My biggest problem with the current crop of electrics isn't price, it's the reliability factor.  I have two friends with Volts, and they are both in the shop more often than they are on the road, which I think is disturbing.  My custom built engine in my 20 year old car doesn't have anywhere near the reliability problem that those brand new Volts have, and that's a BAD sign.  The prius too, great car for 5 years, but you better sell it before the maintenance comes due.

I'm probably just weird though, I like my durable goods to be durable.
 
2013-08-24 03:38:43 PM
Yeah, but they're just compensating for their reliable and affordable penises.

/am I doing it right?
 
2013-08-24 03:43:36 PM

dirkfunk: ShawnDoc: Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.

Well, you sure seem to be on top of what is actually going on in the automotive world. Expensive and unreliable is certainly the reality for Volkswagen right now

/end sarcasm


I thought that was Jaguar...
 
2013-08-24 03:50:05 PM
Typing this on my 2009 MacBook Pro with a self-installed Fusion drive. Using the iPhone to text my wife about dinner plans. Then leaving my Eichler to drive my Prius to the East Bay, kayak on the roof, to enjoy another gorgeous day in paradise. Paying for dinner with the proceeds from my TSLA stock rise.
 
2013-08-24 03:54:43 PM

Kahabut: mjohnson71: All I know is that when in SoCal in business, my rental Taurus or Charger sticks out like a sore thumb. Does anyone buy American any more or is it state law requiring residents to drive foreign make cars?

/Yes, I know where most Accords, Camrys etc are built.

It's an income thing.  California has high cost of living, so higher wages as well (kinda) and so what most of the country considers "expensive" is far more common.  I can't speak to soCal, but in norcal the "average" car is an import brand like BMW, Merc, Lexus, Rover, Porsche.  Things that would be taken as status symbols in many parts of the country are considered base models in NorCal.

When I lived in the bay area a few years back, one of my neighbors had a BMW art car.  A totally unique paint job done by some famous artist.  My other neighbor had a rolls, and the one across the street had a collection of exotics.  Including an F40 and an original Shelby Cobra.

None of these people were "rich", except by Fark standards.  They weren't hurting, but if you called them 1%ers they would laugh in your face and dismiss you as an idiot.

I think the Tesla S is a bad ass car, and in 5-10 years, if they hold up half as well as they are advertised to do, I'll be getting whatever the new model is then.  My biggest problem with the current crop of electrics isn't price, it's the reliability factor.  I have two friends with Volts, and they are both in the shop more often than they are on the road, which I think is disturbing.  My custom built engine in my 20 year old car doesn't have anywhere near the reliability problem that those brand new Volts have, and that's a BAD sign.  The prius too, great car for 5 years, but you better sell it before the maintenance comes due.

I'm probably just weird though, I like my durable goods to be durable.


Yeah that's because they are Chevys not because they are electrics. As far as priuses are concerned, most of their problems stem from the fact that they used nickel batteries for a long time. Plus they have very small batteries that are cycled rapidly. By contrast, tests show that tesla batteries should last 600000 miles.
 
2013-08-24 03:59:55 PM
If this keeps up, we will see more and more red States banning the sell of Teslas. The spice (oil) must flow.
 
2013-08-24 04:01:57 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: I'd love to know how many of those cars are second cars for the household.  I'd also love to see the zip codes where those cars are being sold.  As was mentioned unthread, the Tesals are actually getting some impressive ratings for safety and reliability, there is still the inherent battery life/ recharge time issue but that will be an issue with all electrics until someone invents a battery that can push a car two hundred plus miles on a charge AND recharge as fast as it takes me to pump thirteen gallons into my gas buggy.

So who is the target market for the Tesla?  Rich people of course.  The kind of people who would otherwise have a Porsche or possibly even a Ferrari in the garage.  What do they use these cars for?  Impressing the shiat out of girls and their financial inferiors.  They can drive the short commute to work, have the valet plug it in, and it's ready for the jaunt from Santa Monica to Malibu at the end of the day.  This is a car that says "I am rich, AND I care about my carbon footprint blah blah blah."

If I could afford hundred thousand dollar toys, I might get one too.  Hopefully they won't hoard ALL the tech they develop and sit on the most useful patents like a troll.  I see the need for an edge, but it would be nice to see some of the innovation leak out to other companies trying to design cars for other markets.  Sort of the way Volvo and Mercedes used to eventually share things like air-bag and seat-belt tech.


Wow. You nailed me...not at all.

I'm stretching a little to make this purchase. As in prioritizing. 42, wife, kid, motgage. You know.

Commute is 30 miles one way.

My value prop is as follows:

1. Reward myself for years of good work

2. Get a technological marvel like iphone was when it came out

3. Get the best everyday car on the market

4. Get access to HOV lane to save time and stress

5. Stop paying for gas. Fark you terrorists!

6. Set an example for my son and others that new/fifferent isn't scary

7. Reward a company that is doing it right

8. Stroke my ego. Just being honest

9. Eliminate car maintenance which I suck at

Bonus: panty dropping qualities of this car are fringe benefit
 
2013-08-24 04:02:27 PM
Fuking walk & STFU.
 
2013-08-24 04:02:59 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: I'd love to know how many of those cars are second cars for the household.  I'd also love to see the zip codes where those cars are being sold.  As was mentioned unthread, the Tesals are actually getting some impressive ratings for safety and reliability, there is still the inherent battery life/ recharge time issue but that will be an issue with all electrics until someone invents a battery that can push a car two hundred plus miles on a charge AND recharge as fast as it takes me to pump thirteen gallons into my gas buggy.

So who is the target market for the Tesla?  Rich people of course.  The kind of people who would otherwise have a Porsche or possibly even a Ferrari in the garage.  What do they use these cars for?  Impressing the shiat out of girls and their financial inferiors.  They can drive the short commute to work, have the valet plug it in, and it's ready for the jaunt from Santa Monica to Malibu at the end of the day.  This is a car that says "I am rich, AND I care about my carbon footprint blah blah blah."

If I could afford hundred thousand dollar toys, I might get one too.  Hopefully they won't hoard ALL the tech they develop and sit on the most useful patents like a troll.  I see the need for an edge, but it would be nice to see some of the innovation leak out to other companies trying to design cars for other markets.  Sort of the way Volvo and Mercedes used to eventually share things like air-bag and seat-belt tech.

 My Model S has been my daily driver since I picked it up two months ago. I've driven my older pickup maybe twice since then. I've seen at least a dozen others around Raleigh-Durham as well lately, and they keep delivering more every week.
 
2013-08-24 04:03:09 PM
Sour grapes there, subby?  You sure won't find Tesla drivers saying that.  Or Consumer Reports.  Or the NHTSA (other than rapping Tesla's knuckles for stating that they got a 5.4 score when 5 is the maximum number they officially assign).  Sounds like the bitter rant of someone driving a Hyundai Pony.
 
2013-08-24 04:04:34 PM

TastyEloi: Pockafrusta: subbyisretarded.jpg

Consumer Reports = Best car ever tested. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/09/autos/tesla-model-s-consumer-reports/ i ndex.html


It's interesting to me that there are so many other equally expensive--of not more expensive--cars that don't rate anywhere close to the Tesla for safety. It's nice to see an automobile manufacturer actually care about making a safe car and not offer excuses as to why they can't do it.

Hopefully, some of the Tesla engineering safety advances will become available in less expensive cars.


Not having an engine block and 30 gallons of accelerant tends to make a ride safer.
 
2013-08-24 04:11:25 PM

cygnusx13: Not having an engine block and 30 gallons of accelerant tends to make a ride safer.


Opposed to the lack of an engine sound and a larger amount of equally unstable batteries?
 
2013-08-24 04:11:26 PM

cygnusx13: Not having an engine block and 30 gallons of accelerant tends to make a ride safer.


There's more to it than that. The Model S weighs as much as a large SUV but has a center of gravity barely higher than the axles, for example. The NHTSA couldn't get it to roll over under normal testing.

Recently there's been stories about how the machine used to test the roof's crushing strength broke before the roof did. You could, it seems, stack four additional Model Ss on top of one and the roof will not cave in.
=Smidge=
 
2013-08-24 04:14:21 PM

Kahabut: mjohnson71: All I know is that when in SoCal in business, my rental Taurus or Charger sticks out like a sore thumb. Does anyone buy American any more or is it state law requiring residents to drive foreign make cars?

/Yes, I know where most Accords, Camrys etc are built.

It's an income thing.  California has high cost of living, so higher wages as well (kinda) and so what most of the country considers "expensive" is far more common.  I can't speak to soCal, but in norcal the "average" car is an import brand like BMW, Merc, Lexus, Rover, Porsche.  Things that would be taken as status symbols in many parts of the country are considered base models in NorCal.

When I lived in the bay area a few years back, one of my neighbors had a BMW art car.  A totally unique paint job done by some famous artist.  My other neighbor had a rolls, and the one across the street had a collection of exotics.  Including an F40 and an original Shelby Cobra.

None of these people were "rich", except by Fark standards.  They weren't hurting, but if you called them 1%ers they would laugh in your face and dismiss you as an idiot.

I think the Tesla S is a bad ass car, and in 5-10 years, if they hold up half as well as they are advertised to do, I'll be getting whatever the new model is then.  My biggest problem with the current crop of electrics isn't price, it's the reliability factor.  I have two friends with Volts, and they are both in the shop more often than they are on the road, which I think is disturbing.  My custom built engine in my 20 year old car doesn't have anywhere near the reliability problem that those brand new Volts have, and that's a BAD sign.  The prius too, great car for 5 years, but you better sell it before the maintenance comes due.

I'm probably just weird though, I like my durable goods to be durable.


Your neighbors sound like douches.
 
2013-08-24 04:14:30 PM

cygnusx13: TastyEloi: Pockafrusta: subbyisretarded.jpg

Consumer Reports = Best car ever tested. http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/09/autos/tesla-model-s-consumer-reports/ i ndex.html


It's interesting to me that there are so many other equally expensive--of not more expensive--cars that don't rate anywhere close to the Tesla for safety. It's nice to see an automobile manufacturer actually care about making a safe car and not offer excuses as to why they can't do it.

Hopefully, some of the Tesla engineering safety advances will become available in less expensive cars.

Not having an engine block and 30 gallons of accelerant tends to make a ride safer.


Typical commie-liberal move. Real Americans like sitting their family 30 gallons of accelerant before getting them up to freeway speed.
 
2013-08-24 04:18:02 PM
Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?
 
2013-08-24 04:19:49 PM
Meh. Vanity buy. You're saving gas alright, instead you're burning coal (where's the electricity coming from?)

Chemical batteries simply don't have the energy density of gasoline. Plus, it takes time to recharge the things. It baffles me that all these electric car designs do not have easily swapped out battery packs, so you can stop somewhere, swap packs, and be on your way.....
 
2013-08-24 04:22:15 PM

ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?


I think for some of them it's a masculinity thing. "Real men" should be driving loud, powerful, fume-belching cars. Peddling around on bikes and driving quiet, non-polluting electric cars is for wussies.
 
2013-08-24 04:22:37 PM

ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?


It's the smug look from liberals they can't stand.
 
2013-08-24 04:31:16 PM
I'd buy one if I could afford one.
 
2013-08-24 04:34:59 PM

netgamer7k: ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?

It's the smug look from liberals they can't stand.


Pretty much. In general conservatives have self esteem issues, and they freak the fark out if they think that someone thinks they are better than them.
 
2013-08-24 04:35:01 PM

TastyEloi: ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?

I think for some of them it's a masculinity thing. "Real men" should be driving loud, powerful, fume-belching cars. Peddling around on bikes and driving quiet, non-polluting electric cars is for wussies.


Because they understand physiology and how the human body gets weaker with reasonable amounts of regular exercise.
 
2013-08-24 04:35:34 PM

mark12A: Meh. Vanity buy. You're saving gas alright, instead you're burning coal (where's the electricity coming from?)


We need more nuclear power plants.
 
2013-08-24 04:40:05 PM

mjohnson71: Your neighbors sound like douches.


You sound poor and uneducated.

I wonder which of us is closer to correct.
/not really
 
2013-08-24 04:48:33 PM

mark12A: Meh. Vanity buy. You're saving gas alright, instead you're burning coal (where's the electricity coming from?)

Chemical batteries simply don't have the energy density of gasoline. Plus, it takes time to recharge the things. It baffles me that all these electric car designs do not have easily swapped out battery packs, so you can stop somewhere, swap packs, and be on your way.....


1200 pounds is a lot o swap.
 
2013-08-24 04:55:25 PM

mark12A: Meh. Vanity buy. You're saving gas alright, instead you're burning coal (where's the electricity coming from?)

Chemical batteries simply don't have the energy density of gasoline. Plus, it takes time to recharge the things. It baffles me that all these electric car designs do not have easily swapped out battery packs, so you can stop somewhere, swap packs, and be on your way.....


Yeah, if only Tesla had designed it to swap the battery out for impatient people.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY
 
2013-08-24 04:58:56 PM
I won't be an early adopter, but Tesla seems promising.

/Interested to see if battery fires become an issue.
//Hydrogen fuel cells are probably a better long-term solution as far as quick refueling goes.
///Yes, hydrogen could lead to fires, too.
 
2013-08-24 05:00:59 PM
ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?

It's the smug look from liberals they can't stand.


Pretty much. In general conservatives have self esteem issues, and they freak the fark out if they think that someone thinks they are better than the


HORSESHIAT!

Most of these "conservation" thingys fall into the following categories:

- cutting off consumer choice/freedom by eliminating products that work (toilets) and forcing you to buy things that don't work as well (low flow toilets)

- the creepy Liberal obsession with forcing people out of cars (freedom to travel where you when you want) and into mass transit (where the government can monitor and control your movements) Want to go downtown to protest the latest government abuse? Oops! The trains just shut down...

- Things that don't make economic sense (recycling newspaper costs more than it saves.) And we are NOT running out of landfill space. Windmills will never make economic sense until oil/gas gets REALLY scarce, which won't happen for a few hundred years.

Most of these conservation edicts are interventions into a free market economy, and you would think the demise of the USSR would have taught people that government run central economies simply do not work.
 
2013-08-24 05:05:57 PM

Teufel Ritter: I won't be an early adopter, but Tesla seems promising.

/Interested to see if battery fires become an issue.
//Hydrogen fuel cells are probably a better long-term solution as far as quick refueling goes.
///Yes, hydrogen could lead to fires, too.


Neat thing about gaseous fuels is that if the tank ruptures the gas just kinda floats away in a matter of seconds.  Unlike gasoline which creates both a vapor and liquid and toxic hazard at the scene for rather a long time (assuming it's not cleaned up).

The problem with hydrogen is that it's a mother farker to contain.  The damn stuff leaks out of everything, and requires special materials and religious maintenance.
 
2013-08-24 05:08:53 PM
The Tesla Model S can charge at charging stations for free, dropping the cost somewhere in the "Not a problem" stage, depending on if there's actually a charging station near you.
 
2013-08-24 05:10:49 PM

Kahabut: Teufel Ritter: I won't be an early adopter, but Tesla seems promising.

/Interested to see if battery fires become an issue.
//Hydrogen fuel cells are probably a better long-term solution as far as quick refueling goes.
///Yes, hydrogen could lead to fires, too.

Neat thing about gaseous fuels is that if the tank ruptures the gas just kinda floats away in a matter of seconds.  Unlike gasoline which creates both a vapor and liquid and toxic hazard at the scene for rather a long time (assuming it's not cleaned up).

The problem with hydrogen is that it's a mother farker to contain.  The damn stuff leaks out of everything, and requires special materials and religious maintenance.


True, but for that brief period following a wreck that leads to containment failure, you and the family are sitting in a cloud of hydrogen (and oxygen from the ambient atmosphere); not a pleasant thought.  Again, I think the technology will eventually exist to make hydrogen vehicles safe and easy to refuel.

As for the current battery systems in Tesla vehicles:  Hopefully they pan out, but I will not be an early adopter.  Even Consumer Reports did not actually recommend the Tesla S; IIRC, they refused to issue a recommendation due to a lack of data regarding long-term reliability.

/Hoping for the best.
 
2013-08-24 05:19:03 PM
Mehh, they are reliable as any other incremental technology business plan, as long as the coal holds out.
 
2013-08-24 05:22:18 PM

DiffMavis: The Tesla Model S can charge at charging stations for free, dropping the cost somewhere in the "Not a problem" stage, depending on if there's actually a charging station near you.


"free", That word, it does not mean what you think it means.
Your word(s) is(are) "cost shifted to fool the stoopid".
 
2013-08-24 05:25:02 PM

Teufel Ritter: Kahabut: Teufel Ritter: I won't be an early adopter, but Tesla seems promising.

/Interested to see if battery fires become an issue.
//Hydrogen fuel cells are probably a better long-term solution as far as quick refueling goes.
///Yes, hydrogen could lead to fires, too.

Neat thing about gaseous fuels is that if the tank ruptures the gas just kinda floats away in a matter of seconds.  Unlike gasoline which creates both a vapor and liquid and toxic hazard at the scene for rather a long time (assuming it's not cleaned up).

The problem with hydrogen is that it's a mother farker to contain.  The damn stuff leaks out of everything, and requires special materials and religious maintenance.

True, but for that brief period following a wreck that leads to containment failure, you and the family are sitting in a cloud of hydrogen (and oxygen from the ambient atmosphere); not a pleasant thought.  Again, I think the technology will eventually exist to make hydrogen vehicles safe and easy to refuel.

As for the current battery systems in Tesla vehicles:  Hopefully they pan out, but I will not be an early adopter.  Even Consumer Reports did not actually recommend the Tesla S; IIRC, they refused to issue a recommendation due to a lack of data regarding long-term reliability.

/Hoping for the best.


Yeah, being in a wreck and then having a large amount of rather explosive gas in the area around you isn't a real pleasant thought.  Not to mention the cryogenic effect of a lot of gas escaping a pressurized container, although good design can keep that from being an issue in all but the most farked up circumstances.

The batteries concern me.  A lot.  It's why I haven't put my name on the list for a Model S yet.  Like I said up-thread, I'd buy one if I knew how the batteries were going to hold out against real world driving.  I've been into the RC hobby long enough to not believe anyone when it comes to battery life cycles.  It's as often a matter of quality in manufacturing as it is anything else, and no one has proven Tesla has the process down yet.  As soon as that proof is in the bag, I'll be all over these things.
 
2013-08-24 06:02:25 PM

cygnusx13: DrunkWithImpotence: I'd love to know how many of those cars are second cars for the household.  I'd also love to see the zip codes where those cars are being sold.  As was mentioned unthread, the Tesals are actually getting some impressive ratings for safety and reliability, there is still the inherent battery life/ recharge time issue but that will be an issue with all electrics until someone invents a battery that can push a car two hundred plus miles on a charge AND recharge as fast as it takes me to pump thirteen gallons into my gas buggy.

So who is the target market for the Tesla?  Rich people of course.  The kind of people who would otherwise have a Porsche or possibly even a Ferrari in the garage.  What do they use these cars for?  Impressing the shiat out of girls and their financial inferiors.  They can drive the short commute to work, have the valet plug it in, and it's ready for the jaunt from Santa Monica to Malibu at the end of the day.  This is a car that says "I am rich, AND I care about my carbon footprint blah blah blah."

If I could afford hundred thousand dollar toys, I might get one too.  Hopefully they won't hoard ALL the tech they develop and sit on the most useful patents like a troll.  I see the need for an edge, but it would be nice to see some of the innovation leak out to other companies trying to design cars for other markets.  Sort of the way Volvo and Mercedes used to eventually share things like air-bag and seat-belt tech.

Wow. You nailed me...not at all.

I'm stretching a little to make this purchase. As in prioritizing. 42, wife, kid, motgage. You know.

Commute is 30 miles one way.

My value prop is as follows:

1. Reward myself for years of good work

2. Get a technological marvel like iphone was when it came out

3. Get the best everyday car on the market

4. Get access to HOV lane to save time and stress

5. Stop paying for gas. Fark you terrorists!

6. Set an example for my son and others that new/fifferent isn't scary

...


From that description, I'd say I came closer than you think.  Strip out some of the hyperbole in my own comment for a moment and consider it.  A thirty mile commute is practical in a Tesla, that's easily enough to get you to work and back, it's also on the short side for working-class CA, which is where the article was referencing.  Otherwise, your rationale seems to distill down to essentially, "I want it, I can afford it, and I deserve it..."  with some political/ ethical/ whatever on top to make the decision seem less self serving.  Thats fine, but you are still in a position to spend a hundred thousand dollars (more than an average household income in most places) on a car, so you really aren't in the same bracket as the giant mass of people happy to have something with four wheels and a motor.

The main difference is that you seem more like a geek/ car nut than someone buying it to show everyone you can.  I used to work with a guy years ago who was the same way.  he had a Miata just because he wanted one, drove it all the time except in the dead of New England winter. Really, it's your money to spend it how you like, you shouldn't need to have a justification for a purchase.  Like I said originally, I'd probably get one myself if I could.
 
2013-08-24 06:04:42 PM

Kahabut: The batteries concern me.  A lot.  It's why I haven't put my name on the list for a Model S yet.  Like I said up-thread, I'd buy one if I knew how the batteries were going to hold out against real world driving.  I've been into the RC hobby long enough to not believe anyone when it comes to battery life cycles.  It's as often a matter of quality in manufacturing as it is anything else, and no one has proven Tesla has the process down yet.  As soon as that proof is in the bag, I'll be all over these things.


The batteries are going to be fine.  Seriously.  Your RC batteries are Lithium Polymer.  Designed for very high power density, but not for cycle life.  Even if the Tesla batteries only lasted for 1000 cycles, which is WAY lower than tested, that would be 250,000 miles.  There is absolutely no way that the battery is going to crap out on you prematurely.  And anyway, it's warrantied for 8 years/unlimited miles.  And as far as long term data, the Panasonic 16850s have been around for ages.  There isn't really any mystery to how long they last.  And Tesla really babies them, staying away from the high and low state of charge margins (where almost all of battery degradation occurs) and keeping the temperature regulated.
 
2013-08-24 06:11:28 PM

mark12A: the creepy Liberal obsession with forcing people out of cars (freedom to travel where you when you want) and into mass transit (where the government can monitor and control your movements) Want to go downtown to protest the latest government abuse? Oops! The trains just shut down...


You have a small point about control and shutting down the system to control protests, but I'd counter that most of the pro-mass-transit arguments are to decrease commuting in your car and go via transit than as a replacement for cars entirely, which is much harder to do. That's what I use it for anyway.

And monitor your movements? You've got to be joking! Or have you missed any of the 1000 stories about police departments and others scattering license plate readers everywhere to gather data for uncontrolled purposes and time spans? I'd be surprised if "teh government" is better able to track people's movements when they go via car than via mass transit... at least at the local level.
 
2013-08-24 06:14:37 PM

evaned: I'd be surprised if "teh government" is better able to track people's movements when they go via car than via mass transit... at least at the local level.


That should say that I'd be surprised if the government was  not better able to track you in cars.
 
2013-08-24 06:17:04 PM

ShawnDoc: Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.


LOL. I was gonna guess BMW's, but nearly the same difference. And Porsche? Most reliable Euro brand and one of the more reliable brands overall. The rest of the Euros? Not so great, and that's not even including the French makes.

/ saw my first Tesla today... and I live in flyover country!
// cool looking car
 
2013-08-24 06:32:18 PM
Kahabut:

It's an income thing.  California has high cost of living, so higher wages as well (kinda) and so what most of the country considers "expensive" is far more common.  I can't speak to soCal, but in norcal the "average" car is an import brand like BMW, Merc, Lexus, Rover, Porsche.  Things that would be taken as status symbols in many parts of the country are considered base models in NorCal.

It's been my experience that driving a BMW or Merc in and around LA is like driving a Honda in Ohio (ie. where they are made). They are everywhere and nothing special.
 
2013-08-24 06:38:16 PM
Subby's skateboard needs new wheels and mommy won't give him an advance.
 
2013-08-24 07:08:29 PM
d1435t697bgi2o.cloudfront.net

Electric is sooo 1912.
 
2013-08-24 07:31:04 PM

Erebus1954: Electric is sooo 1912.


Exactly.  Best to stick with something modern like the Internal Combustion Engine.

preview.turbosquid.com
 
2013-08-24 07:42:45 PM
Tesla motors assumes power will always cost 10 cents per KWh

The math gets a lot more murky when you realize in a lot of places a Tesla will put you in the 20 to 30 cents per KWh range.

And then there is problems with the last leg of delivery through 60 year old infrastructure.

media.rhizome.org
 
2013-08-24 08:06:27 PM

Hollie Maea: Your RC batteries are Lithium Polymer


No, they really aren't.  I have some LiPos, but most of mine are NiHd these days.

You missed the point though.  Battery quality is 50% chemistry and 50% build quality.  But given the warranty, I guess that really puts a crimp in my point.
 
2013-08-24 08:07:12 PM

fluffy2097: Tesla motors assumes power will always cost 10 cents per KWh


Hey dumbass, what do you think is likely to rise faster in price--electricity or gasoline?

/Yes, I know you are just a troll.  You're still a dumbass.
 
2013-08-24 08:12:35 PM

Kahabut: Battery quality is 50% chemistry and 50% build quality.


Yes and no.  You can make any chemistry crappy if you have poor build quality, but some chemistries are going to have a short life span no matter how careful you are.  The Nickel ones also have a short lifetime, but like LiPo they have great C rates.

Even some of the Chinese cells are doing surprisingly well in cycle life.  CALB LiFePO4 cells have been shown to last well over 3000 cycles.  That means that if you have a reasonable range (75 miles plus) the batteries will likely outlast the car.
 
2013-08-24 08:28:00 PM

Hollie Maea: fluffy2097: Tesla motors assumes power will always cost 10 cents per KWh

Hey dumbass, what do you think is likely to rise faster in price--electricity or gasoline?

/Yes, I know you are just a troll.  You're still a dumbass.


Depends on how fast the load on the grid increases.

The price of electricity, is correlated to it's use. If everyone, or even 10% of people switches to electric, we end up a massive surplus of refined, high octane gasoline for my car, and I will roar past you getting 19MPG with the AC on laughing, while you are stuck in traffic hoping to get home and maybe get half an hours charge in before the cost of electricity doubles.
 
2013-08-24 08:39:30 PM

FarkerSnow: In a few years Tesla will take the reputation established off the model S and start releasing cars priced in the $30k zone. Like this one, which I would consider buying when my A3 is getting old... (and yes, farkers, I drive like a dick in that thing).

[s1.cdn.autoevolution.com image 728x405]


Yeah, most people who drive VW Golfs drive like dicks.
 
2013-08-24 08:52:28 PM
As someone who drives a Prius and loves the gas mileage I get, I farking hate the car and won't ever buy another one. The ride sucks, the interior is cheap and uncomfortable and the car handles for shiat at high speed.
 
2013-08-24 09:05:00 PM

fluffy2097: If everyone, or even 10% of people switches to electric, we end up a massive surplus of refined, high octane gasoline for my car, and I will roar past you getting 19MPG with the AC on laughing, while you are stuck in traffic hoping to get home and maybe get half an hours charge in before the cost of electricity doubles.


Let me know how that turns out for you.  You should meet the guy who shorted TSLA at $50 a share because he was so certain that his bullshiat arguments on Fark were right.
 
2013-08-24 09:17:11 PM

change1211: FarkerSnow: In a few years Tesla will take the reputation established off the model S and start releasing cars priced in the $30k zone. Like this one, which I would consider buying when my A3 is getting old... (and yes, farkers, I drive like a dick in that thing).

[s1.cdn.autoevolution.com image 728x405]

Yeah, most people who drive VW Golfs drive like dicks.


Hah! Good one, dude.

Yes, they are built on the same platform. I have a beautifully styled golf with leather seats, dual moon roof, and extra hp. And although the golf also has tiptronic shifting, s tronic is the bomb yo.

It's ok to be jealous. I also get laid a lot by different women.

//don't actually drive like a dick
//defensive driving and turn signals ftw
 
2013-08-24 10:13:46 PM
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-08-24 11:25:21 PM

fluffy2097: The price of electricity, is correlated to it's use. If everyone, or even 10% of people switches to electric, we end up a massive surplus of refined, high octane gasoline for my car, and I will roar past you getting 19MPG with the AC on laughing, while you are stuck in traffic hoping to get home and maybe get half an hours charge in before the cost of electricity doubles.


If every car in the US was replaced by a Model S and as a result electricity costs doubled, interestingly enough the average US household would still save slightly over what they're paying now. (I'm ignoring long trips here beyond the one-charge range of a Tesla, which is plenty for virtually all day-to-day driving0 and pretty much only falls on its face for trips.)

Electricity cost first. In 2011, the average US household paid $110/month for 940 KWh of electricity1 at 12.09 cents/KWh2; call that the "base use". According to Tesla3, charging Model S takes 84.9 KWh to get 300 miles of range, which at 12 cents/KWh is $10.19. Let's say that's grossly underestimating, and it will actually take $20 to get 300 miles. In 2009, the average household traveled 1,650 miles/month4, which is 5.5 of those charges, or another $110/month. But that's at today's costs, so if you double it that means $220/month extra. So the added electric bill, between doubling the base electric use and adding on the charging cost, would be $330.

However, the average US household spent $368 on gas in April 20115, and $346 across all of 20116. That means that the average household would save ~$15 in that scenario.

0 Source: This analysis (note the source though) puts 99% of trips in the US below 70 miles. Even if that's one-way, from what I can tell, 150 miles is easily handled by the Model S without a charge even in awful conditions.
1 Source: US Energy Information Administration
2 Source: US Energy Information Administration [2012 data, technically]
3 Source: Tesla Motors
4 Source: Federal Highway Administration [PDF]. See Table 1 on page 13: 2,245,111 million miles traveled / 113,101,000 households / 12 months.
5 Source: CNN
6 Source: The Associated Press, via CNBC. $4,155/12 = $346.25
 
2013-08-24 11:56:09 PM

evaned: fluffy2097: The price of electricity, is correlated to it's use. If everyone, or even 10% of people switches to electric, we end up a massive surplus of refined, high octane gasoline for my car, and I will roar past you getting 19MPG with the AC on laughing, while you are stuck in traffic hoping to get home and maybe get half an hours charge in before the cost of electricity doubles.

If every car in the US was replaced by a Model S and as a result electricity costs doubled, interestingly enough the average US household would still save slightly over what they're paying now. (I'm ignoring long trips here beyond the one-charge range of a Tesla, which is plenty for virtually all day-to-day driving0 and pretty much only falls on its face for trips.)

Electricity cost first. In 2011, the average US household paid $110/month for 940 KWh of electricity1 at 12.09 cents/KWh2; call that the "base use". According to Tesla3, charging Model S takes 84.9 KWh to get 300 miles of range, which at 12 cents/KWh is $10.19. Let's say that's grossly underestimating, and it will actually take $20 to get 300 miles. In 2009, the average household traveled 1,650 miles/month4, which is 5.5 of those charges, or another $110/month. But that's at today's costs, so if you double it that means $220/month extra. So the added electric bill, between doubling the base electric use and adding on the charging cost, would be $330.

However, the average US household spent $368 on gas in April 20115, and $346 across all of 20116. That means that the average household would save ~$15 in that scenario.

0 Source: This analysis (note the source though) puts 99% of trips in the US below 70 miles. Even if that's one-way, from what I can tell, 150 miles is easily handled by the Model S without a charge even in awful conditions.
1 Source: US Energy Information Administration
2 Source: US Energy Information Administration [2012 data, technically]
3 Source: Tesla Motors
4 Source: Federal Highway Administration [PD ...


One tiny question,,,
Where are you going to get the electricity?
Power grid in this country is pretty well tapped already, especially where it matters.
Had a nice brownout lately?
Maybe a rolling outage?
 
2013-08-25 12:01:20 AM

mark12A: ghare: Why is it that "conservatives" hate conservation? Why does someone riding a bike or driving an electric car fill them with such rage and hatred?

It's the smug look from liberals they can't stand.

Pretty much. In general conservatives have self esteem issues, and they freak the fark out if they think that someone thinks they are better than the

HORSESHIAT!

Most of these "conservation" thingys fall into the following categories:

- cutting off consumer choice/freedom by eliminating products that work (toilets) and forcing you to buy things that don't work as well (low flow toilets)


LOLWUT? We replaced a '70s-era 3.5 gallon toilet that would clog if you looked at it funny, with a 1.4-gallon (yes, 1.4, not 1.6) that has never, ever clogged. No bizarro pressure tanks, just a very good gravity-flow design. A hint for the name: we're not in Kansas anymore.

- the creepy Liberal obsession with forcing people out of cars (freedom to travel where you when you want) and into mass transit (where the government can monitor and control your movements) Want to go downtown to protest the latest government abuse? Oops! The trains just shut down...

LOLWUT? Sure, a Tesla is still a rich man's luxury ride, but it hardly qualifies as "forcing people out of their cars." If you must drive a Canyonero, then you can damn well pay for the privilege at the gas pump. Meanwhile, those of us who drive sensibly-sized gas burners will go 2-3 times farther for our gas dollar. Makes sense to me. Now, if I had the cash for a Model S, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. I'll give them a lot of credit for doing things right: they're clearly in it for the long haul, and they're working all-out to improve the technology. The Roadster was a toy; the Model S is much more practical - and it will only become more so as the charging network is built out.

Let's not forget, Tesla paid back their loan far ahead of time.

Good mass transit is nice to have - but it is an adjunct to personal transportation, not a replacement. When I worked in downtown Chicago, taking the train was a hell of a lot cheaper - and a hell of a lot less stressful - than driving. Hell, it was cheaper than PARKING downtown. I could read a book or newspaper, or look out the window and wave at the schmucks stuck in traffic on the Dan Ryan. Now, my commute is about three miles, and that's even better. It's like getting two more hours in a day!

Windmills will never make economic sense until oil/gas gets REALLY scarce, which won't happen for a few hundred years.

LOLWUT? Wind power in Illinois has enabled us to retire the three dirtiest coal-burning plants in the state. That's not a bad thing. Here's a clue: there isn't a single magic bullet solution to our energy needs. I'd like to see more work done on thorium reactors, for instance. Solar has made some big strides, and there are natural gas peaker plants that can be fired up on a moment's notice when demand warrants it. Electric rates in Illinois, even at their worst, are about mid-pack for the country, and my own town's municipal government worked out an electrical supply deal that gives residents power for a little over 4 cents per kWh (which is a SMOKIN' deal). No wonky "smart meters" or any crap like that, either. On that score alone, an electric car would be a nice deal. As it is, a Nissan Leaf would handle 100% of my daily routine driving, but it's the long-trip non-routine driving that still kills the deal for me. Let's hope Tesla can get the ball rolling so we can have long-range electrics for the rest of us.

Most of these conservation edicts are interventions into a free market economy, and you would think the demise of the USSR would have taught people that government run central economies simply do not work.

Absolute laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work all that well either. A middle ground works better then either extreme.
 
2013-08-25 12:13:57 AM
Overpriced? While they may not be in my price range, they outperform every electric and hybrid car out there stubby.

Unreliable? I haven't heard this at all. You know what I DID hear? The Tesla S just got the highest safety rating EVER given out. While safety and reliability are two different aspects of the car, you can't be that safe without being well engineered, and good engineering is how you get reliability.

Yeah subby, we get it. Obama likes Tesla, therefore, this American company='bad'. Why do you hate America, subby?
 
2013-08-25 12:14:24 AM
Haven't read the entire thread.

1) CA is crazy expensive.  In Michigan, where a nice family house just off the downtown with good schools is $150K, buying a $100K car makes zero sense.  In CA, where a starter home is just shy of a million, eh.  And since salaries have to support buying those million dollar homes, it's a lot easier to just find $100K.

2) Because of the whole smog thing (What goes up just sits there forever and ever and ever), CA is really pushing the electric car thing because then they can move all those emissions out of the Central Valley and reduce the amount of smog.

3) Tesla's get to cheat and go into HOV.  Hour off my morning commute (Well, not my (I'm spending WAY too much money being Caltrain stop to Caltrain stop), but people who decided that living in Fairfield and working in Cupertino was a bright idea for some reason) for the win.
 
2013-08-25 12:15:42 AM

snocone: One tiny question,,,
Where are you going to get the electricity?
Power grid in this country is pretty well tapped already, especially where it matters.
Had a nice brownout lately?
Maybe a rolling outage?


The overwhelming majority of EV charging occurs at night, when we have a huge surplus in generating capacity.  Programmable EVSEs and Time of Use Metering, both of which will accompany any significant increase in EV penetration, will amplify this effect.

/Ask me a hard one.
 
2013-08-25 12:17:44 AM

Tom_Slick: jake_lex: Tom_Slick: If I could afford a $80-100,000 for a car I would buy one, but I can't so I won't.  Electric cars are becoming mainstream, I see more and more Nissan Leafs on the road every day.  That is good. The Tesla will create some great new technologies I'm sure but it will never be mainstream.  It has a chance to become as popular as the Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series, but I see that as the maximum volume for their business model.

Well, people buying Teslas for $80K-$100K help advance the technology to the point where we'll have electric cars in the $20K price range.  It's like any other technology: the early adapters pay for its advancement.

Subby's cheap shot on Tesla seems especially tone-deaf, since the consensus I've seen on the Tesla Roadster is that it's the first all-electric car that performs as well as most gas-powered cars.  It's the first electric car that stands on its merit and you might want just because it's an awesome car, not because you want to make a statement and drive an electric car.

I get that the Tesla will advance the technology, but the gist of the article was that the Tesla was becoming mainstream, when I think of mainstream cars I think of the Accord, Camry, Fusion etc. not an $80,000 luxury car.


Well, the gist of subby's headline wasn't that the car was becoming mainstream, which is what the OP was talking about.
 
2013-08-25 12:28:21 AM

snocone: One tiny question,,,Where are you going to get the electricity?Power grid in this country is pretty well tapped already, especially where it matters.Had a nice brownout lately?Maybe a rolling outage?


I don't claim that the current grid would be able to handle everyone instantly getting a Model S. In fact I doubt it could -- as I said above, that would cause a 20-40% increase in total electricity use, which is not insignificant. I can  imaginethat most places in the country might be able to handle it based upon differences in electricity use during day and night and the fact that most cars would be charged at night, but nor would I be surprised if it wasn't true.

But IMO, that's a red herring anyway, because every car in the US  isn't going to be instantly changed to a Model S. Even if they suddenly became affordable to the average family, which is still quite a long ways off, there would be a staggering in period. Even if  that happened, I suspect that 2+-car households (over half) would not replace both of them even if it made financial sense when looked at it the way I did above, because EVs are still not up to handling vacations and other longer trips. (IMO that's true even in the corridors that have superchargers, and that's currently... almost nowhere.)
 
2013-08-25 01:21:58 AM

evaned: because EVs are still not up to handling vacations and other longer trips. (IMO that's true even in the corridors that have superchargers, and that's currently... almost nowhere.)


I don't know...obviously different people have different styles for long trips, but for me I'm too old to fill the car full of food, strap on a catheter and drive 14 hours straight.  So for me even a Tesla Model S would work fine for me as an only car, with superchargers.

I live in Portland, and here are the places I could go.  That's assuming a 260 mile range (that's the EPA rating, which is pretty reasonable.  You aren't going to get the 300 mile Tesla advertises if you are driving on the freeway).  So with zero time charging, I could go the following places:

Seattle
Actually could get up to Bellingham on I5 (pushing it though)
Grants pass, or anything between on I5 south
Anywhere on the Oregon Coast to just beyond Coos Bay
Yakima
Tri Cities
Bend
Pendleton
Crater Lake (pushing it)

Add a single 30 minute supercharging session (while I eat) and my range goes up to 380 miles. I can now go to:
Vancouver (actually would have lots of range left but wouldn't really know where to go next)
Spokane
Boise
Redding.
Essentially anywhere in Oregon or Washington (except for the extreme SE corner of Oregon and extreme NE corner of Washington.  Not much there).

By the end of the year, all the superchargers I need for all of those trips will be up and running.  And if I stopped twice for 30 minutes to eat and charge, I could pretty much drive all day.  Honestly, at those distances I'm thinking flying sounds good.

Of course not everyone is willing to approach long trips in that manner, but for me I'd be happy to have that as a sole car.

/Now to dissapearify my student loans and I'll sign for one tomorrow :)
 
2013-08-25 02:01:30 AM

regornam: dirkfunk: ShawnDoc: Subby, TFA is about Tesla cars, not Volkswagens.

Well, you sure seem to be on top of what is actually going on in the automotive world. Expensive and unreliable is certainly the reality for Volkswagen right now

/end sarcasm

Chill, man, he's kidding. Or are you just a defensive widdle subby?


Sorry, definitely not subby. Just had some cocktails earlier, and probably came off as a jackass. Honestly though, VW has cleaned up their reliability shiat. They aren't Honda, but they are definitely in the upper half of real reliability (what you can expect over 5-10 years of ownership), and claiming they are expensive is ludicrous. They are very well priced these days.

Also, fark subby. I love what Tesla is doing. They are probably building the best cars on the road right now.
 
2013-08-25 02:40:42 AM

Tom_Slick: I get that the Tesla will advance the technology, but the gist of the article was that the Tesla was becoming mainstream, when I think of mainstream cars I think of the Accord, Camry, Fusion etc. not an $80,000 luxury car.


Look into Telsa's long-term plans. They have two more models already in the pipe (Model X next year, Model E in 2016), and each of the 4 Telsa model will be cheaper than the last. The Model E will be priced to compete with the Accord, Camry, Fusion, etc.
 
2013-08-25 03:03:05 AM

Hollie Maea: I don't know...obviously different people have different styles for long trips, but for me I'm too old to fill the car full of food, strap on a catheter and drive 14 hours straight.  So for me even a Tesla Model S would work fine for me as an only car, with superchargers.


Well fark me. I just typed out a long reply to you (obviously this is a YMMV issue, but I wanted to make my point that I think for a lot of people it  wouldn'twork, and you don't need to go anywhere near to "eat in the car, pee in catheter" levels to get there), but my headphones fell on my keyboard and now it's gone. So I'll just point out a couple of highlights.

I'm considering a trip that I do at least once a year, from Madison, WI to central PA. The route through Indiana and Ohio is 70mph speed limit, and I'm usually going a bit higher than that. Furthermore, I usually make that trip in the winter. Tesla's range calculator doesn't even show you what your range will be above 65 mph, but from the effect of changing the speed at lower speeds, it's pretty reasonable to assume that I'd only be able to get about 220 miles for that leg of the trip. But that's not the end of the story: this is a trip I make in winter. If I set the outside temperature to 32 degrees (the lowest it goes and yet downright balmy for Wisconsin in January and February), turn on heat, and estimate the range at 70-75 mph, it's probably below 200 miles.

Now look at the map of supercharger locations, and set the slider all the way to the right, to show projected locations as of the end of 2015. Now look at I-80/90 east of Chicago. There's a supercharger station around Portage, IN, and the next one is... around Toledo. That's about 200 miles away. Do you really want to make a 200 mile drive on a car that only gives you 200 miles range? And that's assuming you spend an extra 35 minutes charging in Portage to get to 100% instead of 80%, like Tesla says is "optimal".

There's another supercharging station around the I-69/94 interchange near Battle Creek, MI, but that's 20 miles off route, so not only do you get to spend 40 minutes charging but you get to drive an extra 35 minutes off route for the privilege of doing so.

And then there's the time cost. My estimate is that in pessimistic-but-not-worst-case scenarios (e.g. it ignores the extra 35 minutes of charging in Portage to even make it to Toledo or the extra 35 minutes of driving to get to Battle Creek), the Tesla would take around than 10% longer than a gas car to make that trip. Which would add more than an hour to it, and make a drive that is already long for one day even longer.

Or you could use Tesla's battery swap thing, where they change out your batteries for you. But that is expensive. I don't think it's officially set yet, but that will probably cost $60-80. That's twice as much as a tank of gas for my car at $3.50/gal, and based on a more typical estimate of Tesla's range at 240 miles, only goes about 2/3s as far. So it's basically 3 times more expensive than gas.

And this assumes you even want to take a route that is covered by superchargers. For instance, I almost took a job in San Francisco. And if Tesla's marketing is to believed, by the end of the year I could make it there from here via a route covered by superchargers that is only 2 or 3 hours longer than what I could do without paying attention to that, and at the end of 2015, I-80 (the best route) will be properly covered as well. Except... I wouldn't have take I-80 had I taken the job. I actually had an awesome route planned out that visited a bunch of neat places along the way. It was on the interstate for a total of about 3 hours over the course of a >2000 mile trip. How much of that route would have been covered by superchargers? Probably not much, even going off of the 2015 map.

Obviously YMMV, and I'm a bit biased because I don't commute in my car and so I suspect an abnormally large percentage of my driving is on long trips, but there's almost no way I would get an electric car as my only vehicle, even if every supercharging station Tesla has planned was in place today.
 
2013-08-25 03:05:01 AM

evaned: So I'll just point out a couple of highlights.


I guess that was most of what I wrote in the first place. Oh well. :-)
 
2013-08-25 06:37:17 AM

lilbjorn: Funnt how there's been a spate of negative headlines on Fark lately about electric and hybrid cars.  It's almost as if the oil industry was paying people to submit them.  But, of course, that would never happen.


Welcome to Fark.
 
2013-08-25 09:39:21 AM

evaned: supercharging


Supercharging is highly discouraged by Tesla motors itself, and they admit that it is bad for battery lifespan.
 
2013-08-25 10:04:37 AM

Kahabut: mjohnson71: All I know is that when in SoCal in business, my rental Taurus or Charger sticks out like a sore thumb. Does anyone buy American any more or is it state law requiring residents to drive foreign make cars?

/Yes, I know where most Accords, Camrys etc are built.

It's an income thing.  California has high cost of living, so higher wages as well (kinda) and so what most of the country considers "expensive" is far more common.  I can't speak to soCal, but in norcal the "average" car is an import brand like BMW, Merc, Lexus, Rover, Porsche.  Things that would be taken as status symbols in many parts of the country are considered base models in NorCal.

When I lived in the bay area a few years back, one of my neighbors had a BMW art car.  A totally unique paint job done by some famous artist.  My other neighbor had a rolls, and the one across the street had a collection of exotics.  Including an F40 and an original Shelby Cobra.

None of these people were "rich", except by Fark standards.  They weren't hurting, but if you called them 1%ers they would laugh in your face and dismiss you as an idiot.

I think the Tesla S is a bad ass car, and in 5-10 years, if they hold up half as well as they are advertised to do, I'll be getting whatever the new model is then.  My biggest problem with the current crop of electrics isn't price, it's the reliability factor.  I have two friends with Volts, and they are both in the shop more often than they are on the road, which I think is disturbing.  My custom built engine in my 20 year old car doesn't have anywhere near the reliability problem that those brand new Volts have, and that's a BAD sign.  The prius too, great car for 5 years, but you better sell it before the maintenance comes due.

I'm probably just weird though, I like my durable goods to be durable.


bullllllllllllshiat

median income of california is like $60k, median income of NJ is about $70k.  Here in NJ the cost of living is very high and there are plenty of beamers, mercedes, etc... but it is hardly the norm and typically reserved for people who would be called rich, or at least considered wealthier than the norm.
 
2013-08-25 10:57:39 AM

Hollie Maea: snocone: One tiny question,,,
Where are you going to get the electricity?
Power grid in this country is pretty well tapped already, especially where it matters.
Had a nice brownout lately?
Maybe a rolling outage?

The overwhelming majority of EV charging occurs at night, when we have a huge surplus in generating capacity.  Programmable EVSEs and Time of Use Metering, both of which will accompany any significant increase in EV penetration, will amplify this effect.

/Ask me a hard one.


Your paradigm sucks. Once in common use instead of a toy, that time shift will disappear. Guess that is why all the gas stations are closed after dark, no demand.
 
2013-08-25 11:39:39 AM

snocone: Your paradigm sucks. Once in common use instead of a toy, that time shift will disappear. Guess that is why all the gas stations are closed after dark, no demand.


Oh come on.  You are either a very accomplished troll, or incredibly stupid (whynotboth.jpg).  Gas cars are designed to be refilled when you are on the run.  Electric cars are designed to be recharged when you are parked for a long period of time.  So why is there no demand for gas at night?  Because most people are at home, with their cars IN THE DRIVEWAY.  If it's an EV, it's plugged in.  People don't charge their cars at night because they are trying to be easy on the grid, or even because they are trying to save money (most people don't YET have time of use metering, but that's coming soon regardless of whether EVs become a hit).  They charge at night because that's the most logical and convenient thing to do.

Consider if everyone had a gas pump at home that automatically dispensed gasoline in the middle of the night.  Even if they could only start off each morning with 100 miles worth of gas, how often do you think they would stop at a gas station.

Honestly, one of best things about owning an EV is not having to stop at the damn gas station when you are on your way somewhere.
 
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