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(Yahoo)   Scientists identify 84 possible causes of obesity. Also known as the complete menu at McDonald's   (gma.yahoo.com) divider line 101
    More: Interesting, gut bacteria, Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, menu, American Medical Association, obesity  
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3910 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Aug 2013 at 9:07 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-23 10:31:40 AM

Lady J: tfa is going to annoy me too much to read

aside from a handful of people with rare conditions, the single cause of obesity is:
calories in > calories out

it makes me lol when my friends embark on complicated explanations about eating protein and carbs together between 7 and 8 pm, or some secret thing in pineapples. they just don't want to face it. they overeat.


No  you have a view of nutrition that is as simplistic, wrong, and outdated as thinking the the four basic chemical elements are air, earth, fire and water.  Just because I feel like personal experience compels me to be an evangelist on this point, so others won;t suffer the way I did, I'mma gone lay some real science on you:

We've learned a lot about biology and chmistry over the last hundred years, you may want to do some reading on it.   In particular  You may want to google the term Eicosanoid (or Icosaniod)  The fella that discovered them won a Nobel Prize in Medicine.  Seems there are two main series of them
One series, created when Insulin is predominant in your system,  tend to
Increase blood clotting
restrict your airways
increase "cellular proliferation" (which can cause/facilitate cancer)
Cause your body's cells to internally produce cholesterol rather than scavenging it from your blood stream, thus increasing your serum cholesterol.
Raise your blood pressure
Cause your body to create and store body fat.

the Second series, produced when Gulcagon is predominant in your body:
Lowers Blood pressure
opens airways
decreases blood clotting
reduces serum cholesterol
retards cellular proliferation
and Burns body fat


That series one list look a lot like the "symptoms" of our current "obesity epidemic" (including the sudden spike in Asthma, the increase rates of heart disease high BP etc)?

Now, here's the fun part,  the more insulin that's in your body not only the more the series 1 eicosaniods are being produced, but, the more insulin RESITANT your body is getting overall.  meaning your body has to produce MOAR INSULIN, meaning even more eicosaniods...wash, rinse, repeat until you have type II diabetes from a burned out pancreas  (ever wonder why sudden weight LOSS is a symptom of diabetes)

You fix this really simply:  you lower your body's demand for Insulin by severly estricting your carbohydrates for a few moths.   This gives your cells a chance to re-sensitize to insuling over all (chromium and Vit D. Speed this process enormously).  Then going forward you try to keep them far lower than you typically see in the very bad for you "typical" american diet.

The side effect of this process is whe your carbs are in the very low state, calories and fat intake simply DO NOT MATTER, you body cannot store the excess caloric intake as body fat because that interal switch is not on, so it literally passes out fo your body unused  (which can be gastrointestinally unpleasant, but that's it)  which is why the Atkins folks can lose so much weight while still eating bacon, or cheese or other highly satisfying but otherwise forbidden foods.


Now if you still think I'm wrong, SHOW ME where the above science is wrong.  Not your opinion, not some longitudinal weight loss study, but debunk the actual, scientifically validated chemistry outlined above.
 
2013-08-23 10:31:58 AM

odinsposse: Also, before the low carbers come out in force to ruin this thread with their psuedo-science: Low carb diets help people lose weight by lowering their calorie consumption. Ketosis doesn't effect weight loss. People improve their blood sugar by losing weight even when they do it on a high carb low fat diet. It's wonderful you found a diet that works for you but you guys are becoming the diet equivalent of Randian gold bugs.


In my experience, people who go on fad diets really aren't interested in being healthy. They're just interested in joining a club and being pains in the asses in restaurants and at dinner parties.
 
2013-08-23 10:32:31 AM

sigdiamond2000: Theaetetus: Lady J: Theaetetus: sigdiamond2000: Theaetetus: Lady J: tfa is going to annoy me too much to read

aside from a handful of people with rare conditions, the single cause of obesity is:
calories in > calories out

It's a good thing you were too annoyed to read the article, because it specifically called out people like you.

Not really:

"At the end of the day, we still have the law of energy balance to contend with," he said. "If you ingest more than you expend you are going to gain weight, period."

No, really. Next paragraph:
"We've focused almost all our resources on the so-called 'Big Two' of diet and exercise for more than 50 years and it hasn't helped," he said. "We will have to move beyond 'eat less and move more' if we want to make progress."

as someone else has already said... 'eat less move more' would work IF people did it

I bet you're an advocate for abstinence-only sex education, too.

Laughter OL. OK, I think we're done here.

Good luck, dude.


Heh. It's on point, though... It's the same exact argument that the abstinence folks make - we could end teen pregnancy IF more people would just not have sex. STDs would be a thing of the past, IF people would just not bump uglies. Frankly, that doesn't work, and doesn't reflect reality. It ends up being a way to chastise people for "lacking willpower" while not actually helping.

There's an interesting other point mentioned in the article - the potential correlation between plastic use and obesity. If you go back a hundred years, people ate roughly the same amount as they do today, and yet obesity was significantly lower. And while sure, some people were toiling in the fields, that doesn't explain all the thin rich people who ate rich, fatty foods, drank like fishes, and whose idea of exercise was a leisurely stroll around the garden after dinner with a cocktail and cigarette, or maybe shooting some pigeons... with a cocktail and cigarette. There's a hypothesis currently being investigated that there are some environmental toxins due to the use of plastics that significantly slow our metabolisms so, as noted earlier in the thread, people  aren't actually burning those 300 calories when they're on the treadmill for a half hour.
This would also explain why obesity rates are rising faster for poor people than for rich people - more exposure to cheap processed and packaged foods that are frequently made in heated plastic containers, and frequently reheated in plastic containers, etc.
 
2013-08-23 10:33:18 AM

AngryDragon: bmongar: Actually food calorie counts are inaccurate as to how usable the calories are.  That is 100 calories of sugar in a food with both soluble and insoluble fiber will yield less caloric intake that 100 calories of sugar without the fiber

I have to disagree with this.  100 calories of sugar is just that, 100 calories of sugar.  It takes the same amount of "work" to burn that much potential energy.  The advantage of fiber is that it slows the rate of absorption for those 100 calories.  So instead of your body getting the whole thing pumped into your bloodstream at once, it is metabolized more slowly.

This is an advantage because of how the body produces insulin and what it does.  Sudden blood sugar spikes cause large insulin releases.  This will ultimately result in excess sugar being stored as fat.  This is also why you get a "sugar crash".  Once you have burned what you can use and it has stored everything away, the excess insulin causes your blood sugar to drop.  Then you have to eat to feel better again.  It's a vicious cycle.

That's why sugar is so terrible for you.  Your body can only use so much, the rest is stored.


No, 100 calories ingested is not always 100 calories absorbed.  The fiber will actually prevent (not just slow down though it does that too) absorption of some of that sugar.
 
2013-08-23 10:33:54 AM

odinsposse: Also, before the low carbers come out in force to ruin this thread with their psuedo-science: Low carb diets help people lose weight by lowering their calorie consumption. Ketosis doesn't effect weight loss. People improve their blood sugar by losing weight even when they do it on a high carb low fat diet. It's wonderful you found a diet that works for you but you guys are becoming the diet equivalent of Randian gold bugs.


From what I read, the difference comes from adherence. That is, the foods on low-carb diets are usually more satisfying, so the diet is easier to stick to.
 
2013-08-23 10:34:14 AM
  Daffydil: I read 'Control group lab mice' and quit reading your comment.  I'm basing my opinion on myself.

Shrug, you're welcome to be stupid. Do you only use drugs developed by testing on yourself too?

I find it fascinating that carefully bred animals kept under documented identical exercise and diet conditions for thirty years are showing weight gain at about the same rate as the human population.
 
2013-08-23 10:36:06 AM

odinsposse: Also, before the low carbers come out in force to ruin this thread with their psuedo-science: Low carb diets help people lose weight by lowering their calorie consumption. Ketosis doesn't effect weight loss. People improve their blood sugar by losing weight even when they do it on a high carb low fat diet. It's wonderful you found a diet that works for you but you guys are becoming the diet equivalent of Randian gold bugs.


Or we could come to the conclusion that the human body is a complex open system and that there are too many variables to determine a single solution for everyone. (You opened this door)

Yes, I am on a low carb diet, sanctioned by my doctor.  Primarily because my blood sugar was a disaster and I was a severe reactive hypoglycemic for 7 years.  I tried the high-carb, low-fat thing for years.  The result was my doctors thinking I had heart problems (ironically).  72 hours after being put on a ketogenic diet, my blood sugar stabilized completely and has been for over a year.  I sleep at night, have tons of energy, low cholesterol, my bloodwork is always right down the line of normal, and as a bonus I've lost 70 pounds.  The only time that I have a blood sugar swing is when I eat a lot of carbs and then I am right back to square one.

It may not be right for everyone and I still wouldn't recommend it only for weight loss, but don't knock something that works very well for some people.
 
2013-08-23 10:36:22 AM

Target Builder: Theaetetus: No, really. Next paragraph:
"We've focused almost all our resources on the so-called 'Big Two' of diet and exercise for more than 50 years and it hasn't helped," he said. "We will have to move beyond 'eat less and move more' if we want to make progress."

Most people are shiat at dieting and exercising.


Correct. Therefore some research into WHY this is so, and/or why it's gotten worse in the last couple decades, is worthwhile. Glad we agree with TFA.
 
2013-08-23 10:37:05 AM

Surpheon: Daffydil: I read 'Control group lab mice' and quit reading your comment.  I'm basing my opinion on myself.

Shrug, you're welcome to be stupid. Do you only use drugs developed by testing on yourself too?

I find it fascinating terrifying that carefully bred animals kept under documented identical exercise and diet conditions for thirty years are showing weight gain at about the same rate as the human population.


FTFM. That's some seriously creepy shiat.
 
2013-08-23 10:38:01 AM

sigdiamond2000: No one who is arguing honestly would claim that there aren't very real medical issues that cause people to be obese. The argument, though, is that these are exceedingly rare.


Yep. Hell, I'd LOVE to simply pop a pill to lose weight, but for 95% of us, there's no medical condition to treat. We're just lazy and gluttenous.
 
2013-08-23 10:38:06 AM
I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.
 
2013-08-23 10:41:13 AM

Pangea: I honestly believe if it worked for me it can work for anyone


*twitch*

Resist the temptation to ever utter that phrase when discussing diets. The same thing NEVEr works for everyone.

My plan (been on it a month, lost 10-oddlb so far, will have to increase my targets for safety for the next 100 lb): count calories with an iron fist, until goal weight is reached. (Did this once before successfully, did not do the next part). Keep weighing in, commit to going back on calorie-counting if weight goes up beyond some target. Repeat until death.

"Lifestyle change" won't work for me, it's been tried, I can manage to eat 3000 cal/day of healthy low-fat food. (That's a reason I haven't gotten bariatric surgery; there are people who still manage to overeat, and I bet I could and would).
 
2013-08-23 10:41:27 AM

bmongar: No, 100 calories ingested is not always 100 calories absorbed.  The fiber will actually prevent (not just slow down though it does that too) absorption of some of that sugar


That is incorrect.  Here is a good high-level writeup

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/slow-glucose-absorption-6661.html
 
2013-08-23 10:42:50 AM

Magorn: Now if you still think I'm wrong, SHOW ME where the above science is wrong.  Not your opinion, not some longitudinal weight loss study, but debunk the actual, scientifically validated chemistry outlined above.


Maybe the science is right. Now what?

Are you hoping to change people's minds with all of those words, every time you feel like someone is judging you for your weight?  Are you hoping to increase "fat acceptance" in American society?

Maybe you should just identify yourself as "exceptional," wear it as a badge of honor, and move on with your life. You're clearly committed to your position and you're entitled to it. Congratulations. Good for you. Make a blog or something.
 
2013-08-23 10:44:13 AM

SundaesChild: I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.


Get some melatonin. Available over the counter at most pharmacies. 4-6mg and a half hour later, you're out like a light, and unlike sleeping pills, it has no after effects. It's also non-addictive and it's literally impossible for you to consume enough to be toxic.
 
2013-08-23 10:45:26 AM

AngryDragon: It may not be right for everyone and I still wouldn't recommend it only for weight loss, but don't knock something that works very well for some people.


I'm not knocking it really. I know it works for some people. It's just that their diet works for mostly the same reasons other diets work but instead of saying that they use diet books lines about "THE SECRET TO HEALTH DOCTORS DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW!" And then go on and on about a mostly magical view of how insulin works. That's really annoying in discussions like this one.
 
2013-08-23 10:45:49 AM

AngryDragon: bmongar: Actually food calorie counts are inaccurate as to how usable the calories are.  That is 100 calories of sugar in a food with both soluble and insoluble fiber will yield less caloric intake that 100 calories of sugar without the fiber

I have to disagree with this.  100 calories of sugar is just that, 100 calories of sugar.  It takes the same amount of "work" to burn that much potential energy.  The advantage of fiber is that it slows the rate of absorption for those 100 calories.  So instead of your body getting the whole thing pumped into your bloodstream at once, it is metabolized more slowly.

This is an advantage because of how the body produces insulin and what it does.  Sudden blood sugar spikes cause large insulin releases.  This will ultimately result in excess sugar being stored as fat.  This is also why you get a "sugar crash".  Once you have burned what you can use and it has stored everything away, the excess insulin causes your blood sugar to drop.  Then you have to eat to feel better again.  It's a vicious cycle.

That's why sugar is so terrible for you.  Your body can only use so much, the rest is stored.


almost right, the AND is that the Insulin your body has to produce to deal with the sugar, also sets of a series of microhormones in your body on of which s very specifically the fat storage signal.  If that signal is off you don;t store fat, and if insulin's opposite number, glucagon is predominant in your system, the fat BURNING switch gets turned on and you lose weight, or at least body fat, irresepctive of how many calories you eat.
 
2013-08-23 10:49:11 AM
Geeze, don't they have a pill for this?
 
2013-08-23 10:49:17 AM

SundaesChild: I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.


Start taking OTC sleeping pills.

Seriously. They're awesome.
 
2013-08-23 10:49:20 AM

Magorn: almost right, the AND is that the Insulin your body has to produce to deal with the sugar, also sets of a series of microhormones in your body on of which s very specifically the fat storage signal.  If that signal is off you don;t store fat, and if insulin's opposite number, glucagon is predominant in your system, the fat BURNING switch gets turned on and you lose weight, or at least body fat, irresepctive of how many calories you eat


That too.  Was trying to keep it simple.  Unfortunately I've been forced to learn more about blood sugar chemistry and mechanics than I ever hoped to over the last decade.
 
2013-08-23 10:50:34 AM

Gaseous Anomaly: Resist the temptation to ever utter that phrase when discussing diets. The same thing NEVEr works for everyone.


That's valid. I guess I'm just encouraged by the fact that I was a "fat boy" from age 3 until 37. I thought I could never feel comfortable without a shirt on, but now I do. Maybe I really am a unique and special snowflake like my mom always promised.

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-08-23 10:51:29 AM

Theaetetus: SundaesChild: I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.

Get some melatonin. Available over the counter at most pharmacies. 4-6mg and a half hour later, you're out like a light, and unlike sleeping pills, it has no after effects. It's also non-addictive and it's literally impossible for you to consume enough to be toxic.


Hmm. I've never tried that. I'll have to give it a shot.
 
2013-08-23 10:52:04 AM

sigdiamond2000: SundaesChild: I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.

Start taking OTC sleeping pills.

Seriously. They're awesome.


I can't do sleeping pills. The next morning, I'm useless and in a fog for several hours.
 
2013-08-23 10:53:30 AM

Theaetetus: Get some melatonin. Available over the counter at most pharmacies. 4-6mg and a half hour later, you're out like a light


That's a really high dosage of melatonin. Most people might do well to start with a smaller intake if they're going to experiment with it.

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sl ee p
 
2013-08-23 10:55:16 AM

Theaetetus: sigdiamond2000: SundaesChild: I hate health articles that say "Sleep moar!" like it's that simple. Some of us have insomnia. You know what happens when I am cautioned about the health risks of not sleeping enough? It stresses me out and I can't sleep.

Start taking OTC sleeping pills.

Seriously. They're awesome.

I can't do sleeping pills. The next morning, I'm useless and in a fog for several hours.


I rarely use them any more, but that did happen to me the first few times I did and it eventually went away. When I occasionally need them now, it doesn't seem to make me foggy. Don't know why.
 
2013-08-23 10:55:48 AM

Pangea: Maybe the science is right. Now what?

Are you hoping to change people's minds with all of those words


I think the rational response would be appropriately funding further research into the matter. If there is a contributing environmental or epidemiological factor that can be fixed, like pulling lead out of gas to reduce the number of morans in the population (my pet theory is the majority of Republican supporters are people who grew up with lead literally vaporized and sprayed in their face, but I haven't had time to do the numbers), then not looking for it would be stupid.
 
2013-08-23 10:59:19 AM

Pangea: Theaetetus: Get some melatonin. Available over the counter at most pharmacies. 4-6mg and a half hour later, you're out like a light

That's a really high dosage of melatonin. Most people might do well to start with a smaller intake if they're going to experiment with it.

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/melatonin-and-sl ee p


I'm 6'5". Your blood volume may vary. ;)
 
2013-08-23 11:00:13 AM

Pangea: Magorn: Now if you still think I'm wrong, SHOW ME where the above science is wrong.  Not your opinion, not some longitudinal weight loss study, but debunk the actual, scientifically validated chemistry outlined above.

Maybe the science is right. Now what?

Are you hoping to change people's minds with all of those words, every time you feel like someone is judging you for your weight?  Are you hoping to increase "fat acceptance" in American society?

Maybe you should just identify yourself as "exceptional," wear it as a badge of honor, and move on with your life. You're clearly committed to your position and you're entitled to it. Congratulations. Good for you. Make a blog or something.


No what I am TRYING very hard to do is educate people.  I was dangerously, deadly fat in my life and I accepted the conventional view that it was all about diet and exercise and did both with a vengance...and got...fatter...and evern more desperate, depressed, self-loathing, and almost just said "fark it Guess I'mma gonna die at 30"

Then I learned about the low carb diet, read an equistiely sourced and researched book anbout WHY it works (highly recommend it to anyone -Protien Power By Drs Eades and Eades) in exacting detail.

I tried it, and was both stunned/angry/and relieved at how utterly  EASY it was to lose weight....6 months 100 lbs were off and I was NEVER hungry, didn't need my BP meds....could go twice as far on the exerbike or rowing machine (that actually happened two weeks after I started) and was ENJOYING eating.

but after a while I gave in to all the haters who said "oh this just CAN'T be healthy  you have to be doing some sort of secret damage to your kidneys/liver/ SOMETHING   no way it's this easy"

and I starting eating normally again and eventually backslid into eating like shiat.

10 years later no weight had come back on, but..for a few months..my feet always seemed numb.....and sure enough...11,9 A1c, and a diagnosis of "very diabetic".  With almost zero help from my DR who just wanted me to start shooting insulin...I wne tback to to first principles...ate low carb...lost ANOTHER 50 lbs  and...according to my DR, have more or less cured myself of type II (5.3 A1c last check up , 2mg of glimeperide a day as a precaution)

I want people to open their farking eyes and learn the truth so they don't make the same stupid farking mistakes I did and waste half thier life being fat or unhealthy because people want to equate body what with inner virtuousness, WANT being skinny to be hard, and so  and wont accept the science involved
 
2013-08-23 11:01:20 AM
i literally lose weight just be being awake, when i try go on vacation and stuff myself silly - if there was any moderate amount of walking then i end up losing weight by the end of the trip while everybody else gained some, i remember in college having the opposite effect of "freshman 15" despite having a worse diet than most other freshmen i was friends with... and if i take 2 weeks off from exercising i might as well be starting over from scratch
 
2013-08-23 11:02:35 AM

AngryDragon: Magorn: almost right, the AND is that the Insulin your body has to produce to deal with the sugar, also sets of a series of microhormones in your body on of which s very specifically the fat storage signal.  If that signal is off you don;t store fat, and if insulin's opposite number, glucagon is predominant in your system, the fat BURNING switch gets turned on and you lose weight, or at least body fat, irresepctive of how many calories you eat

That too.  Was trying to keep it simple.  Unfortunately I've been forced to learn more about blood sugar chemistry and mechanics than I ever hoped to over the last decade.


Type II or I?  you or a loved one?  have a few war stories/insights to share if you ever wa­n­t***Farkha­ndle[nospam-﹫-backwards]oo­hay­*c­o­m
 
2013-08-23 11:04:10 AM
Re: Sugar

Last week on NPR they had a scientist who was researching the impact of artificial sweeteners on our endocrine system. The gist of their findings was that when our bodies taste something sweet our endocrine system connects that to the rise in blood sugar that occurs immediately afterward and adjusts hormone releases accordingly, leading to people feeling satisfied so they stop eating. They found that people who consumed large quantities of artificial sweeteners had a more desensitized hormone response to consuming sugar, as though their systems had learned to disconnect sweet tastes from blood sugar, so when they consumed actual sugar their bodies don't send their brain a 'STOP' signal.

http://www.npr.org/2013/07/12/201461166/not-so-sweet-side-effects-of -a rtificial-sweeteners
 
2013-08-23 11:07:08 AM

Magorn: No what I am TRYING very hard to do is educate people.  I was dangerously, deadly fat in my life and I accepted the conventional view that it was all about diet and exercise and did both with a vengance...and got...fatter...and evern more desperate, depressed, self-loathing, and almost just said "fark it Guess I'mma gonna die at 30"


There is no legitimate argument against that. I think I just had a burst of Internet, Self-Centered, Myopia.

The science is a little complicated for my brain, but the psychological impact of what you're describing can and probably does escalate all the way to suicide on certain occasions.

Keep fighting the good fight.
 
2013-08-23 11:08:47 AM
And just to fork the insomnia threadjack back to obesity, from Wiki:
Many studies show that chronic melatonin supplementation in drinking water reduces body weight and abdominal fat in experimental animals, especially in the middle-aged rats, and the weight loss effect did not require the animals to eat less and to be physically more active.
 
2013-08-23 11:08:51 AM

Magorn: Pangea: Magorn: Now if you still think I'm wrong, SHOW ME where the above science is wrong.  Not your opinion, not some longitudinal weight loss study, but debunk the actual, scientifically validated chemistry outlined above.

Maybe the science is right. Now what?

Are you hoping to change people's minds with all of those words, every time you feel like someone is judging you for your weight?  Are you hoping to increase "fat acceptance" in American society?

Maybe you should just identify yourself as "exceptional," wear it as a badge of honor, and move on with your life. You're clearly committed to your position and you're entitled to it. Congratulations. Good for you. Make a blog or something.

No what I am TRYING very hard to do is educate people.  I was dangerously, deadly fat in my life and I accepted the conventional view that it was all about diet and exercise and did both with a vengance...and got...fatter...and evern more desperate, depressed, self-loathing, and almost just said "fark it Guess I'mma gonna die at 30"

Then I learned about the low carb diet, read an equistiely sourced and researched book anbout WHY it works (highly recommend it to anyone -Protien Power By Drs Eades and Eades) in exacting detail.

I tried it, and was both stunned/angry/and relieved at how utterly  EASY it was to lose weight....6 months 100 lbs were off and I was NEVER hungry, didn't need my BP meds....could go twice as far on the exerbike or rowing machine (that actually happened two weeks after I started) and was ENJOYING eating.

but after a while I gave in to all the haters who said "oh this just CAN'T be healthy  you have to be doing some sort of secret damage to your kidneys/liver/ SOMETHING   no way it's this easy"

and I starting eating normally again and eventually backslid into eating like shiat.

10 years later no weight had come back on, but..for a few months..my feet always seemed numb.....and sure enough...11,9 A1c, and a diagnosis of "very diabetic".  With almost ...


My impression of the comments is that people are saying someone will lose weight is calories in<calories used. I don't see that you're countermanding anything they're saying, the diet that allowed you to obey that principle is the low carb one. Whether you're better able to consume fewer calories, or your body's metabolism becomes higher due to blood sugar/insulin things, it's a basic truth that weight loss will only happen with calories in<calories used.

That doesn't invalidate your diet of course. The article made the analogy to cancer, and in that regard, some cancer treatments with proven scientific underpinnings only work for certain subpopulations. Likewise, weightless techniques are probably population-specific based on underlying metabolism issues. It's great you've found something that works for you, and by all means, let people know that it's an option that helped you a lot. I think some people might be rubbed the wrong way of the "gospel-ness" of it, like it's the one true path.
 
2013-08-23 11:11:31 AM

sigdiamond2000: Magorn: Daffydil: Unless you have a medical problem, exercise is the answer to fat...doesn't matter what you eat, or drink as long as you get up off of your ass...

BZZZT!

totally wrong. sorry

Me working out Areobically, setting gym records on the computerized rowing machine, 1/hr a day 7 days a week/52 weeks a year for 3 years? =334-331 lbs
Me working out 3 days a week =370 lbs
ME dropping my carbs to 40gm a day and working out once a week when I could? 260 lbs six months later
me eating like shiat for ten years then going low carb again with zero gym time? 235 and counting in 3 months

You likely have a medical problem, some kind of weird metabolic imbalance. I don't know.

What I do know is that 98% of people who worked out like you described and ate a sensible diet would lose weight. I'm not a doctor, but I don't think that's unrealistic. Any doctors/nutritionists in this thread want to prove me wrong, have at it, and I'll admit I'm a fool.

No one who is arguing honestly would claim that there aren't very real medical issues that cause people to be obese. The argument, though, is that these are exceedingly rare.


Consider this:
Americans consume per capita, far more "dietetic" food than any nation on earth
Most Europeans consider us ridiculously obessed with our helath, and gym memeberships, enrollemnts in exercise classes, and over all spending on diet and exercise product in the US is FAR higher than anywhere elese on earth

Yet:
We are on the most obese nations on earth and getting fatter all the time

in any other medical endeavor if what we are doing seems to be counter-productive and the rate of adverse results were increasing, we'd say, "well that approach didn't work-let's try something different"   Only in the feild of weight loss do we instead just blme the patient and say "well you need to do more and jusrt try harder"
 
2013-08-23 11:14:37 AM

Magorn: after a while I gave in to all the haters who said "oh this just CAN'T be healthy  you have to be doing some sort of secret damage to your kidneys/liver/ SOMETHING   no way it's this easy"


There's a lot of Puritanism tied up in America's attitudes about fat and diet. (And everything else). That hits it square on the head. The more difficult something is, the more "worthy" it is.

Admittedly it'll be annoying to me if I lose my excess weight through a couple years of Epic Struggle, and then someone comes out with a partial-cannabinoid-agonist appetite-suppressing pill or something. But I'll try to be happy for other porkers who will be then able to lose weight easily.
 
2013-08-23 11:15:39 AM

Theaetetus: And just to fork the insomnia threadjack back to obesity, from Wiki:
Many studies show that chronic melatonin supplementation in drinking water reduces body weight and abdominal fat in experimental animals, especially in the middle-aged rats, and the weight loss effect did not require the animals to eat less and to be physically more active.


Incidentally, here's the pdf of that study. The amount consumed was about 30 micrograms per kilogram bodyweight, or 3 milligrams for a 100kg person.
 
2013-08-23 11:44:08 AM

Theaetetus: Lady J: Theaetetus: sigdiamond2000: Theaetetus: Lady J: tfa is going to annoy me too much to read

aside from a handful of people with rare conditions, the single cause of obesity is:
calories in > calories out

It's a good thing you were too annoyed to read the article, because it specifically called out people like you.

Not really:

"At the end of the day, we still have the law of energy balance to contend with," he said. "If you ingest more than you expend you are going to gain weight, period."

No, really. Next paragraph:
"We've focused almost all our resources on the so-called 'Big Two' of diet and exercise for more than 50 years and it hasn't helped," he said. "We will have to move beyond 'eat less and move more' if we want to make progress."

as someone else has already said... 'eat less move more' would work IF people did it

I bet you're an advocate for abstinence-only sex education, too.


That settles it--liposuction for all! If people refuse to care for themselves, we need to take the responsibility off their shoulders and give them proper solutions!
 
2013-08-23 11:45:51 AM
I've always been thin even though I eat like a beast, and the same is true for my parents (we don't eat very unhealthfully, but we eat a lot). I had my genome sequenced recently, and it turns out that I do have SNPs associated with lower BMI. Lucky for me, because I love carbs.
 
2013-08-23 11:50:36 AM

Pangea: Magorn: No what I am TRYING very hard to do is educate people.  I was dangerously, deadly fat in my life and I accepted the conventional view that it was all about diet and exercise and did both with a vengance...and got...fatter...and evern more desperate, depressed, self-loathing, and almost just said "fark it Guess I'mma gonna die at 30"

There is no legitimate argument against that. I think I just had a burst of Internet, Self-Centered, Myopia.

The science is a little complicated for my brain, but the psychological impact of what you're describing can and probably does escalate all the way to suicide on certain occasions.

Keep fighting the good fight.


That's an excellent point and I should clarify.  I do think human metabolisms have evolved into distinct classes and not every diet works for everyone.  Otherwise we would not see such wide variants of weight in people who eat similar diets.   I do believe the science of a low carb diet is valid, but it probably works best on a subclass of people who are somewhat like me.   Most people, no matter how badly they ate, simply can't get to 300lbs without trying very hard, let alone 370 where I was.  However for those that CAN, low carbing seems to invariably work, and amazingly quickly.   I have a friend who started over 250lbs (female 5'3 or thereabouts) and lost over 100lbs on her own because hse has an utterly iron will (decided whe wanted to do a 400km bike ride in Kenya...so she lost weight and worked  out until she could)   but, to do that she had to absolutely awful things to her body (like alternating between 1000 cal days and days where she ate virtually nothing at all ..3-500 cal max) and did it on sheer willpower, hating every step.   I convinced her to try to low carb thing after she broke a bone and was unable to exercise for 3 months and packed about 40lbs back on.   She's much happier person and has already droppe 16 lbs in under a month.

Still I will conceed one point to the "just reduce your intake crowd"  It is undoubtedly true that if you reduce your calories enough you will lose weight, otherwise people wouldn't starve to death.  However doing that by cutting calories across the board can often mean fighting your body's own famine defense mechanisms making the overall job harder.  The High Proten aspect of the Low carb diet helps stop that from happening.

And many people fail to realize that almost by default, low carb diets do often also entail a large reduction in calories.
It's maths: protien and carbs are 4 cal/gm fat is 9 cal per gram  typical USDA recomended diet is 50gm protien  280 gm carb  and 50 gm fat/day) for a total min RDA of 200 cal/ protien, 450 cal of fat and 1120 calories of carbohydrates for a total of 1770 cal/day

Now a typical low carb person goes higher on the protien: 75-100 gm   and much lower on the carbs, say 50 a day.  So that's 400 calories of protein, 200 calories of  carb,  which means if if you increase you fat intake by 50% (which is actually hard to do)  you are only consuming  675+400+200 or 1275 calories, or 500 less than the RDA (and since fat calories are not used efficently when you are in ketosis the change is actually even more dramatic)

the big difference is that since LC diets do not depend on COUNTING calories, only carb intake, the psychological feeling of deprivation that can make conventional diets hard, don't  seem to exist as much.
Also, an oz of meat or cheese, or a whole egg have about 7gms of protein   meaning just to get to the high protein levels the diet recommends you are eating 10-13 oz of meat/cheese/etc a day and a fair bit of fat.  The combination  is HIGHLY satiating, but thanks ot the metabolic/chemical protections of Gulcagon, the extra fat won't clog your arteries etc.  So the bottom line is even though your calories are restricted, you do not notice as much, which leads to greater compliance.  Not to mention the fact that hunger, I and others have discovered, is a chemical signal caused by swings of blood sugar from high to low....if you BS is low and STAYS low you almost never feel hungry or compelled to eat)
 
2013-08-23 11:51:36 AM

sweetmelissa31: I've always been thin even though I eat like a beast, and the same is true for my parents (we don't eat very unhealthfully, but we eat a lot). I had my genome sequenced recently, and it turns out that I do have SNPs associated with lower BMI. Lucky for me, because I love carbs.


My girlfriend is like that eats whatever she wants and can still wear her 16-year-old daughter's clothes.
 
2013-08-23 12:05:21 PM
Many (probably most) bodybuilder types don't even do cardio.  Like many here, I dropped 60 just by counting calories.  There are many ways to get skinny fat and one that I know of to preserve muscle and look good (high protein diet with a calorie deficit).  Can't beat physics, and having a 6 pack is great.  If only physics didn't preclude us from making a 100 calorie double IPA or 9.5% Belgian golden strong ale.

FYI, rats/mice are great but if it hasn't been pointed out, they have high levels of brown adipose tissue and many studies may be irrelevant to humans.

/Eat less and lift you lazy farkers.
 
2013-08-23 12:06:10 PM

AngryDragon: My girlfriend is like that eats whatever she wants and can still wear her 16-year-old daughter's clothes.


Has she made you fatter? I've been accused of being a fat-enabler because people eat more around me to keep up.
 
2013-08-23 12:29:07 PM

sweetmelissa31: AngryDragon: My girlfriend is like that eats whatever she wants and can still wear her 16-year-old daughter's clothes.

Has she made you fatter? I've been accused of being a fat-enabler because people eat more around me to keep up.


Nope.  Militant about what I take in.  I can see how that could be an influence though.
 
2013-08-23 12:30:28 PM
Look of course anyone can lose weight with diet and exercise, but as someone who has always struggled with weight, although nothing too extreme thanks to enjoyment of working out, here is my main issue. Everyone has vices. Drinking, gambling, sex, whatever. For many people it's food. For people who want to stop any other vice, it is easy to take yourself out of the situation. You can't do that with food. Imagine if you were trying to quit drinking, but everyday you had to take a least 3 shots of booze. Of course you can buy a lower alcohol percentage booze, but you still need to drink. Imagine you were trying to quit gambling, but needed to place a few bets a day. Sure you can bet less, but you still need to place bets.


This is why so many people are 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Your still eating food, just not getting the same responses as you used to. With almost any other vice, there are support groups, drugs, free help, family support. A lot of time with food your very much on your own when dieting, with many people trying to unintentionally sabotage you and others straight up yelling at you.


Plus there are also many genetic factors that go into it. Metabolic differences, physical problems, the research showing differences in when people feel full. It is never a black and white issue.
 
2013-08-23 12:35:37 PM
Learn to love throwing proteins on top of salads or veggies.  It is fortunate that eating habits and tastes can to an extent be retrained.  Wish I could do the same with light beer.
 
2013-08-23 12:53:23 PM
I have a book entitled 115 Reasons Why It's Not Your Fault You are Fat by Robert S. Wieder.

He covers the genetic, epigenetic, environmental, disease, and other factors that cause obesity quite well. If anything, this article has missed a few causes of obesity.

The two things to avoid when thinking about obesity is moralizing (blaming the victim, as if society doesn't spend billions promoting obesity through marketing, advertising, subsidies, government policy and so forth) and denial. There are a lot of reasons why people have become massive over the last few decades and are now becoming obese in developing countries and countries which used to be praised for their healthy lifestyles and diets. There is no reason to despair and give up on even the most common sense efforts to maintain a healthy body and a healthy mind.
 
2013-08-23 03:33:42 PM
thin privilege.
 
2013-08-23 06:09:29 PM

Lady J: sigdiamond2000: Magorn: EvilEgg: anyone struggling with their weight that there may be more to shedding surplus pounds than simply cutting back on calories and putting in a few extra treadmill sessions.

But this is completely counter to what the Fark scienticians tell me.  How could such a learned group be wrong?

/I sound fat, because I am.

Precisely. We have been repeatedly assured by the FarkMD's that loosing weight is very simple, you just need to decrease your calories and increase your exercise.  There are NO OTHER FACTORS. NONE. EVER. So if you are fat it is simply because you lack their Superior Willpower and self control.

I sound fat because I was 150lbs ago, and know from personal experience just what utter hogwash that is.

So what sorcery did you use to lose all that weight if it wasn't diet and exercise?

hehe. someone I once knew lost weight when they gave up pasta/bread etc and then claimed wheat intolerance had made them fat. YOU FARKING IDIOT WHEAT IS PURE CARBS!


Actually, I lost 11lbs in a month just by switching to gluten free products. I still ate cake, bread, pasta, etc. the only difference was it was gluten free. Gluten swells up my face and stomach something crazy and causes a bunch of health problems for me so I've stayed off it.

I've been doing 5:2 off and on since March. It's called intermittent fasting but really you just cut you calories down to 500-600 a day for 2-3 days a week. Once you get down to your weight you switch to just one day a week because that keeps the weight from creeping back up. More importantly, that one day a week is also supposed to turn off the risk for cancer, diabetes, and Alzheimer's, all of which run in my family.

https://vimeo.com/m/50912488 PBS also reruns it from time to time and its only an hour long. Don't get freaked out by the extreme fasts he does in the beginning, that's not the program he ends up on. His book is on the best seller list right now but I like Kate Harrison's 5:2 ebook better and that is only $3. Mosley's book is good though if you want to see all his starting and ending numbers.
 
2013-08-23 07:28:15 PM
Because, you know, McDonald's is the ONLY place in the entire world that sells food.
 
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