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(Yahoo)   Texas bans sales of Tesla cars, because Fark you   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 363
    More: Obvious, Texas, Fark, Motor Trend  
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20208 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2013 at 12:49 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-22 02:11:32 PM  

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Middlemen.  Lots and lots of middlemen.
 
2013-08-22 02:12:35 PM  
Audi provided a Tesla Model S for me to test drive (and video'd me doing it).   Sweet ride.   I also got to ride in the A8.   Got a bunch of Audi swag (jacket, water bottle, notebook) to boot.
 
2013-08-22 02:13:07 PM  

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.


There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid
 
2013-08-22 02:14:11 PM  

PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?


It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!
 
2013-08-22 02:15:43 PM  

Psylence: PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?

It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!


That's rather fascinating, actually.  I didn't know that was an option.  HMM.
 
2013-08-22 02:16:03 PM  
Is this your office?

[cache.jalopnik.com image 804x535]


I guess it's no coincidence that that monstrosity of a building looks like gigantic chromed tail pipes..
 
2013-08-22 02:18:01 PM  
Texas is a fascist state.

--Native and current Texan
 
2013-08-22 02:18:42 PM  
THIS IS NOT HOW SMALL GOVERNMENT WORKS.
 
2013-08-22 02:18:43 PM  

simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.


And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 110v plug.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:15 PM  

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Because it isn't capitalism if someone isn't getting f*cked.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:48 PM  
The Tesla Showroom here is Austin is pretty much across the street from me here at work.  It's not a traditional dealer by any stretch of the imagination.  It's in an outdoor shopping area (mall) with, ironically enough, an Apple Store a few doors down.  There's one car inside that you can look at and sit in, but you can't drive it.  I haven't taken the time to walk in there yet, but I believe the rest of the space just has a few computers setup where you can browse the Tesla website and order a car.

This guy has a couple of good photos.  http://evtd.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-visit-to-tesla-showroom.html

I think peeling the plastic off a new car would be fun!
 
2013-08-22 02:21:35 PM  
The problem is the demonic vehicles run on satanic magic and not God's sweet crude.
 
2013-08-22 02:22:51 PM  

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid


Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"
 
2013-08-22 02:23:14 PM  

Cyberluddite: simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.

And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 11 ...


Those public stations here in Austin are pretty cool.  You can pay like $2 an hour for them, which is a bad deal unless you're going downtown and would be paying $8 for a parking spot anyhow.  But I recently found out they also have a deal where you can get unlimited use on those for $25 a month.  I'd be all over that if they had a station within walking distance of my office.
 
2013-08-22 02:23:16 PM  

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind
 
2013-08-22 02:23:27 PM  

Cyberluddite: IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success

For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

[app.quotemedia.com image 555x290]


I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back.  Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

btw:  A market cap of roughly 1/2 of GM and 1/3 of Ford?  For a company that is delivering cars in the 4 digits per quarter?  I'd rather invest in bitcoins.
 
2013-08-22 02:26:35 PM  

PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"


That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?
 
2013-08-22 02:26:56 PM  

Onkel Buck: groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.

Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind


People are already making money off of it, just not the middlemen and 'that' is what has them in an uproar.

The established system with combustion engine vehicles has the car makers making money, the dealers making money and the oil companies making money.

Tesla's electric cars has Tesla making money and....that's it.  Well, maybe the people who build the recharge stations?  Unless that's Tesla, too.

You can see why there's resistance to Tesla's efforts.
 
2013-08-22 02:27:07 PM  
Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson
 
2013-08-22 02:27:44 PM  
^like the car
 
2013-08-22 02:28:45 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


It's absolutely cheating to name this one, but the American Samoa Power Authority.

/Of course, this would never work for the whole country the way it does for a small island
//And even they are currently trying to get off of diesel
///It cost like $100/month to air condition a 1-bedroom apartment only when I was using it.
 
2013-08-22 02:29:40 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Dude went out of his way to try and run that battery down and end up stranded...and then complained that the battery ran down and he ended up stranded.

If you're swayed by that, then you're better off not having an electric car because you may well find a way to kill yourself with it.
 
2013-08-22 02:30:04 PM  
In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:03 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Clarkson is the Kim Kardashian of the auto world. Famous for nothing, and has a very grating personality.
He is the worst part about that entire program.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:30 PM  

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.
 
2013-08-22 02:33:59 PM  

This text is now purple: They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players


Inferior business models die all the time.  And they should be allowed to die.  No one deserves to have their sales territory protected by the government.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:03 PM  

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.


You know free market blah blah blah
 
2013-08-22 02:34:51 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


It's always nice when someone both outs themselves as a dumbass and offers proof.

Thank you. You've made it easier for all of us.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:56 PM  
Free market!
 
2013-08-22 02:35:02 PM  

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFyxmdnv3qE
 
2013-08-22 02:35:18 PM  

IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.


True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:24 PM  

FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:39 PM  

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"

That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?


As appealing as "do it again, but right this time" is, that's about as probable as people wanting to toss/redo the tax code or (my favorite) rewriting code from scratch
 
2013-08-22 02:35:55 PM  

LandOfChocolate: That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.


So it hurts consumers to save money and it hurts rural communities to have ready access to services?  This guy is a prick.  There's no two ways about it.  Prick.
 
2013-08-22 02:36:59 PM  

mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.


I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:08 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


That's the Tesla roadster--essentially their Beta car from 5 years ago.  It's nothing like the S.  That's like saying that Windows 7 obviously sucked because you read a review of Windows ME back in 2000 and heard that it was a piece of shiat.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:18 PM  
It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:10 PM  

Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.


Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725


Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:44 PM  

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is


I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.
 
2013-08-22 02:41:48 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.


What it's protecting is the network of car dealers across the state of Texas.  Are they fat cats?  I don't know.  I do know that most of the car dealers I've ever dealt with were scum sucking bottom feeders, so it's hard for me to find any sympathy for their industry.

At most, I can simply suggest that they try to get some night classes in before their industry disappears.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:19 PM  
more likely because of auto dealers lining the pockets of lawmakers.  oh, and Jesus

(goes to read article)

Yup.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:31 PM  

FrancoFile: mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.

I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.


Oh, well... Carry on then!
 
2013-08-22 02:42:46 PM  
also, I need legislation for my buggy whip concession.
 
2013-08-22 02:43:23 PM  

This text is now purple: Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.

Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725

Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.


Yeah, if I had a Bluestar today, I'd be in trouble if I wanted to drive up to NYC.

But, since I won't have it until 2015 or 2016, I'm not altogether worried about it right now.
 
2013-08-22 02:44:31 PM  
www.dallas-ecodev.org
 
2013-08-22 02:50:19 PM  

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Because it's one of the best looking cars on the road ?

You had to stop three times ? it's really unfortunate that you were so incredibly inconvenienced.  That's really inhumane.
Incidentally,  how much did those recharges cost you ?

Btw, not only did you screw-up when you wrote "there" instead of "they're", but you also wrote "its" when it should have been "it's".  I know, I know, those grammatical trivialities are inconsequential compared to your suffering.

/so, how often do you crash ?
 
2013-08-22 02:51:53 PM  

Cyberluddite: True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.


#1 -- The Veyron did that too, even though Volkswagen lost money on every one.
#3 -- So claims Tesla. Looking at the IIHS and NHTSA stats, though, it looks like the Volvo S60 performs better.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=7577&mediatype=r&r_tstno=7577
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=8308&mediatype=r&r_tstno=8308
http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/5-Star+Safety+Ratings/2011- Ne wer+Vehicles/Search-Results?searchtype=compare2&make1=TESLA&model1=MOD EL+S&make2=VOLVO&model2=S60&year1=2013&year2=2013
 
2013-08-22 02:52:04 PM  

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is

I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.


I'd be amazed to see a citation on that. It was my understanding that gas plants had the ability to throttle their production quickly, and (at least in Tennessee), there's a lot of gravity energy storage scattered about to filter out the residuals.

Besides, filtering out the little overages/underages from when different power comes on/offline is a completely different ball game than trying to keep up with peak load in the middle of a hot summer day by storing energy overnight. One is trivially solved (and was, as far as I knew). The other involves storing an absolutely ridiculous amount of energy
 
2013-08-22 02:52:20 PM  

IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".


I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.
 
2013-08-22 02:57:13 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


If only you had internet access, you could try these things called "search engines" and one of them would probably direct you to the Dept of Energy's "website" with a further "link" to the Energy Information Agency.  There you would be able to read their list of Dual-cycle oil or gas fired generators and even a list of oil only fired generators.  I'm sure your local library has last year's paper copy.
 
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