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(Yahoo)   Texas bans sales of Tesla cars, because Fark you   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 363
    More: Obvious, Texas, Fark, Motor Trend  
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20187 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2013 at 12:49 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-22 01:38:43 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.


Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar
 
2013-08-22 01:39:02 PM

CaptSS: Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.

Did you read the part of the article where is says your state (Virginia) has pending legislation for the same thing?

/that foot you mention appears to be in your mouth


Yes, I saw that but it is pending, not LAW like in Texas.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:32 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Fireproof: Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.

They don't want to share that sweet, sweet profit margin with any middlemen.  They need to keep it for themselves, to keep the company profitable.


Exactly.  They're managing to make it work by avoiding middlemen and need to jack up the price to pay those middlemen.  Good on them.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:40 PM

the money is in the banana stand: For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


If you're right, and dealerships like yours can truely provide better service to the point that manufacturers don't even bother with their own retail distribution, then why the laws? Why the worry on the part of the dealerships?
 
2013-08-22 01:40:00 PM
car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.
 
2013-08-22 01:40:10 PM

indarwinsshadow: Rogers and Bell in Canada have been trying to manipulate the courts, the CRTC and the government for years making sure they have a strangle hold on cell, television, home phone and internet for years and year. Going as far recently as to take out full page ads in some of the largest newspapers trying to convince people that having a player come in from the United States in the cell phone market is bad for Canada.


Ummm... I'd see at least a tiny bit of similarity if in this instance, existing car dealerships in Texas were being forced to allow a Tesla rep to be on-site at their facility to sell his company's vehicles.  But we're talking about a new competitor which has full intention of operating independently of the established dealerships, not piggy-backing on existing sales channels.
 
2013-08-22 01:41:47 PM

chasd00: car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.


Having known my fair share of car dealers, I can honestly say the whole lot could go bankrupt and end up unemployed tomorrow and I'd have a steak dinner to celebrate.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:02 PM
Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:29 PM

Rev.K: So Texas will be banning iPhone, iPad and iPod sales too?


If there was a national cellphone franchise organization in the US with 'phone' dealers dealing and wheeling you bet it would;'ve been banned!
 
2013-08-22 01:45:18 PM

mcreadyblue: Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.

Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.


Solution: have Elon purchase each car to be sold, then simply re-sell it back to Tesla at 100% purchasing price (thus creating paper trail), BOOM technically used. Next have Tesla post cars on used car search sites (or just make their own friggen' site).
???
Profit!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:08 PM
Libertarian Rand Bots UNITE!!!!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:28 PM
Lowest Model price Cash is 63K! Sorry, I can;t do that. When prices started going over $20K for cars I started getting Itchy. How much money do they think us Average Joe's make anymore these days? I remember when you could get a Base Road Runner for $3000! Just a few years ago I got my 2010 Sonata out the door for under $19K Cash. I'm putting just under 10K miles a year on it and fully expect it to last the 10yrs it has on it's warranty and then some. I got 13yrs out of my '96 Saturn and it was getting ready to Die. This Korean car is Way better than that POS was. In 2020 I'll be pushing 70 myself IF I make it that far. I figure I've bought my last car.
 
2013-08-22 01:46:29 PM

IntertubeUser: Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.


I've already talked to my bank about the Bluestar when it becomes available.  Thanks to the various 'green' subsidy incentives, my bank is by far more prepared to help me with a loan for a Bluestar than a conventional gasoline vehicle.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:02 PM

This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.


I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, but don't take delivery in that state--the dealer delivers the car to in your home state:  You do not pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will still likely get the temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state, but no sales tax is charged because you did not take delivery in that state.  When you go to the DMV to register it, you will be charged sales tax by your home state (in this case, the state where you took delivery) at the same rate as if you had bought it locally.

The one twist in this situation is that, in some states, you will be charged sales tax if you bough the car out-of-state in a state that doesn't charge sales tax at all (Oregon, for example) even if you took delivery in that state.  Though, again, I think this varies from state to state.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:20 PM

Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.


A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".
 
2013-08-22 01:48:58 PM
Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?
 
2013-08-22 01:49:03 PM

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.


A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Your best bet is to find a place with a very steep hill, a body of water and a plateau. When you have too much energy, you pump the water uphill, then run it downhill through a generator to get the electricity back. But then you're paying two penalties for the losses from the extra pumps and generators

Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:28 PM

studebaker hoch: If the car makers and dealers were smart, they'd learn from the music industry that the future cannot be stopped by lawsuits.

They need to change their business model, fast.

The future has arrived.


Heh, no farking way.  Legislating success is WAY easier than innovating.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:43 PM

BigNumber12: the money is in the banana stand: In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level

Would you say that they don't have "people skills?"

[i158.photobucket.com image 636x341]


+1
 
2013-08-22 01:50:12 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Why are Tesla threads becoming the new tipping/IQ/kids on planes threads?


I respectfully disagree.  They are the new "Priuses are harmful to the environment/driven by smug hippies" threads.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:26 PM

LandOfChocolate: From: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-elec t ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/

The bills are being opposed by the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, the state trade association for franchised new car and truck dealers. Bill Wolters, the association's president, said that, while Tesla is a niche player, the bills could open the door to larger manufacturers coming into Texas and attempting to sell directly to customers.

That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.

Oh, fark you.  I understand that this guy has a job to do, which is representing his industry, but this is total bullshiat.

I wonder how it feels to stand in the way of progress and be on the wrong side of history?


Would you also rather the power companies to be able to sell directly to the consumer?   In theory, what this existing laws do is prevent monopolies by maintaining a sense of competition.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:36 PM
Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.
 
2013-08-22 01:51:10 PM
You can smell the fear in these threads.  It's why I love coming into them so much.
 
2013-08-22 01:53:03 PM

HeadKase: There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.


+1 I've seen as many as 5 unique Model S Teslas in the same day here.

I hate living so close to Texas. You know?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:13 PM

Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.


How does FedEx price that?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:28 PM

PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.


Yet...
 
2013-08-22 01:54:05 PM

simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.


Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-08-22 01:54:48 PM

Psylence: Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...


Yeah, I just said that, Mr. Echo.
 
2013-08-22 01:55:45 PM

IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success


For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

app.quotemedia.com
 
2013-08-22 01:56:05 PM

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


There's too many middlemen in the established system.
 
2013-08-22 01:56:55 PM

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.
 
2013-08-22 01:57:24 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


Lobbyists at work...
 
2013-08-22 01:57:52 PM
What has happened is that in the last 20 years
America has changed from a producer to a consumer
And all consumers know that when the producer names the tune...
The consumer has got to dance
That's the way it is. We used to be a producer - very inflexible at that
And now we are consumers and, finding it difficult to understand

The ultimate in synthetic selling:
A Madison Avenue masterpiece ...
A miracle ...
A cotton-candy politician...
Presto! Macho!Annotate

 Put your orders in, America
And quick as Kodak your leaders duplicate with the accent being on the dupe
Cause all of a sudden we have fallen prey to selective amnesia .

 Civil rights, women's rights, gay rights...it's all wrong
Call in the cavalry to disrupt this perception of freedom gone wild
God damn it...first one wants freedom
Then the whole damn world wants freedom....

As Wall Street goes, so goes the Nation
And here's a look at the closing numbers ...
Racism's up, Human Rights are down
Peace is shaky, War items are hot
The House claims all ties

Jobs are down, money is scarce
And common sense is at an all-time low with heavy trading
Movies were looking better than ever
And now no one is looking because
We're starring in a "B" movie
 
2013-08-22 01:58:20 PM
New things are bad and can lead to taxes, gun grabbers, immigrants, black people, abortions, and anti-Jesusism.

At least that's what the oil industry is paying their politicians to say.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:21 PM

dragonfire77: Evil Mackerel: Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.

I just did...looks like a pretty dead place.  Mostly dead grass, sand, dust, and concrete.  Looks like a dirty, dusty, dirt brown zen garden from the air....


I just flew in from Hawaii yesterday. The entire mainland looks as you describe. Well, there are some fields in the real flyover areas. This is a pretty dry continent.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:41 PM

maxx2112: Create new company, sell franchises to new company, have franchise sell cars in Texas, tell Texas to suck it.


/ was that so hard?


New company has to be separate from the manufacturer - financially, personnel, etc.
But if that works, the dealers will use their deep pockets to buy off more state legislators to come up with some new bullshiat hoop to jump through.

/rent-seeking behavior
//economics 101
 
2013-08-22 02:00:35 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


Entergy has a number of dual plants, Gas/oil depending on market price. Same for Reliant in Houston, don't remember the actual overall Corporation.
 
2013-08-22 02:01:42 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


F*CK CAR DEALERSHIPS. Seriously. It shouldn't be a game to buy a goddamn car, but it is, because of dealers.

/AIso I think Chrysler tried this route in another state, and wound up in court over it because the auto dealers cried no fair.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:16 PM

Blues_X: If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril.

So?


And here I thought that red states were all about laissez-fair capitalism. I guess that obtrusive, anti-competitive regulation is only bad when blues are doing it.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:58 PM
Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:02 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


I can show you quite a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Electric_Industries#Generation
 
2013-08-22 02:04:32 PM

studebaker hoch: Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.


You really can't blame the car dealers.  Tesla is sidestepping them entirely by selling directly to the market instead of selling to dealers who get to jack up the price for their own profit margins.

They're simply looking out for their own survival, but at the same time, FARK CAR DEALERS.  Most of them are scum.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:44 PM

Cyberluddite: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.


Pennsylvania doesn't care. If you haven't owned it for more than 6 months, you pay sales tax in order to register in PA. They'll work out the difference w/ reciprocal states, but PA collects sales tax regardless of where you actually buy the thing.
 
2013-08-22 02:05:34 PM
 
2013-08-22 02:06:29 PM

Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar


They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!
 
2013-08-22 02:06:40 PM
Another reason for the Texas ban, there is no gun rack.
 
2013-08-22 02:07:57 PM

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...


Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is
 
2013-08-22 02:08:03 PM

happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.


What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!
 
2013-08-22 02:08:36 PM

This text is now purple: Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar

They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!


We'll see.  My bank has already promised me a loan for the down payment, so I'm good.
 
2013-08-22 02:09:23 PM

This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?
 
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