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(Yahoo)   Texas bans sales of Tesla cars, because Fark you   ( news.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Texas, Fark, Motor Trend  
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20279 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2013 at 12:49 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



363 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-08-22 11:25:02 AM  
The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers
 
2013-08-22 11:30:32 AM  
If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril.

So?
 
2013-08-22 11:32:30 AM  
So Texas will be banning iPhone, iPad and iPod sales too?
 
2013-08-22 11:32:36 AM  
So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?
 
2013-08-22 11:36:38 AM  

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


This is correct.  I don't know on the "fixed" question, but chances are the dealership.  Although it sounds like a Tesla should never die, based on how unbelievably amazing all of its scores (read: press) have been.
 
2013-08-22 11:43:04 AM  
I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway
 
2013-08-22 11:44:42 AM  

Barfmaker: I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store?


Less middlemen making money for nothing other than adhering to a bullshiat law intended to protect them, and for no other reason...
 
2013-08-22 11:57:05 AM  
"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 12:15:06 PM  
Just change their name to "Jesusmobile" and they will sell double-wide fold-out chairs down here...
 
2013-08-22 12:16:37 PM  

UberDave: Just change their name to "Jesusmobile" and they will sell like double-wide fold-out chairs down here...


/Dammit
 
2013-08-22 12:31:15 PM  
"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.
 
2013-08-22 12:34:03 PM  
"If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.
 
2013-08-22 12:37:54 PM  

Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.


Once again, an example of small government conservatism staying true to their ideals!
 
2013-08-22 12:38:32 PM  
/conservatives
 
2013-08-22 12:39:15 PM  
About 50% of the human race is middle-men and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.
 
2013-08-22 12:40:40 PM  

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got
 
2013-08-22 12:41:31 PM  

Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.


I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.
 
2013-08-22 12:48:23 PM  

simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.


instantviewreview.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
d23 [BareFark]
2013-08-22 12:51:11 PM  
TEXAS IS THE AYN RAND LAND OF COMPETITION!

Texas sucks ass.  Whoever wins the auction makes the laws. What a joke.
 
2013-08-22 12:53:20 PM  
If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."


you know, like letting women decide whether or not to have an abortion. Now, much less confusion as to where to go.
 
2013-08-22 12:53:46 PM  

simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.


They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:42 PM  
You would think that a "news" article would have at least covered the legal reasoning behind the ban. Maybe the author could have written a short explanation of what the franchise law is? Sounds like an anti-trust measure, but that would be stupid.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:54 PM  
There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.
 
2013-08-22 12:55:20 PM  
I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.
 
2013-08-22 12:55:41 PM  
More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:06 PM  

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


Tesla cannot own a dealership.

Texas would have banned Internet sales if the legislatures had figured out how that floppy disc with 10 free hours from AOL worked 15 years ago.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:27 PM  
The whole damn state is a RHINO legislatively speaking. All hat no cattle.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:34 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


That's a bizarre hijacking of feminist terminology in a completely unrelated subject, but to actually answer the premise is very simple: franchise laws create unnecessary middlemen, who by definition will extract an economic profit raising prices for consumers, when the market has demonstrated consumers are willing and able to purchase vehicles directly from manufacturers, at slightly lower prices.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:58 PM  
At least the TABC is coming to its senses about craft breweries.

And while I have faith in Elon Musk's ability to outwit the Texas legislature, I have more faith in the Texas legislature ability to propagate their crony, GOB fiefdom.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:02 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


Don't worry about it sugartits. Just tell your man that the electric car doesn't make your ladyparts hum like his jacked up F150 does.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:27 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:30 PM  
Create new company, sell franchises to new company, have franchise sell cars in Texas, tell Texas to suck it.


/ was that so hard?
 
2013-08-22 12:57:32 PM  
There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?
 
2013-08-22 12:57:36 PM  
Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:40 PM  
Ric Romero reports that the rich can buy legislation.  More at 11.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:00 PM  
Gotta love them small government conservatives.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:02 PM  

GameSprocket: You would think that a "news" article would have at least covered the legal reasoning behind the ban. Maybe the author could have written a short explanation of what the franchise law is? Sounds like an anti-trust measure, but that would be stupid.


Beer/Liquor manufacturers are also banned from selling to stores ( Walmart , etc ) or bars ( Applebys ).
 
2013-08-22 12:58:19 PM  
Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:44 PM  

mcreadyblue: simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.

They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.


Huh. I thought the 140 days were work days, not elapsed time. And lawyers vs. used car salesmen, I can't say which I'd prefer.
 
2013-08-22 12:59:20 PM  
From: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-elec t ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/

The bills are being opposed by the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, the state trade association for franchised new car and truck dealers. Bill Wolters, the association's president, said that, while Tesla is a niche player, the bills could open the door to larger manufacturers coming into Texas and attempting to sell directly to customers.

That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.


Oh, fark you.  I understand that this guy has a job to do, which is representing his industry, but this is total bullshiat.

I wonder how it feels to stand in the way of progress and be on the wrong side of history?
 
2013-08-22 12:59:33 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.


Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.
 
2013-08-22 12:59:40 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.


I can imagine this Bill Wolters guy in a grey suit with starched white shirt, stiff collar, bolo tie, big 10-gallon Stetson, gator skin boots, gold watch and rings, and pushing about 260lbs. Talking in the thickets Texas drawl. What a douche...
 
2013-08-22 12:59:52 PM  
LOL conservatives always support capitalism and survival-of-the-fittest in the marketplace, yet one of their strongholds won't let capitalism run its course? Hypocritical assholes!
 
2013-08-22 01:00:40 PM  

Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.


All of these state bans could be challenged. The Commerce Clause gives the federal government a lot of power.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddganos/2013/05/15/north-carolinas-thre a t-to-tesla-likely-unconstitutional/
 
2013-08-22 01:00:55 PM  
I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:00 PM  

BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.


The legislators. They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:35 PM  

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.
 
2013-08-22 01:02:20 PM  
As a Texan who has spotted half a dozen Teslas scooting about town, I am rather shocked to learn about the distribution laws. Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.

I'd bet there's more to the laws than whats been presented in tfa, but it does appear the law might need a little tweaking.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:26 PM  

dj_spanmaster: Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.


I believe auto manufacturers have little, if anything to do with this. It's more like local car dealers doing this.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:36 PM  
More bootstrappy republicans getting government out of our lives for the defence of the free market. They must laugh at those blue states that allow consumer to buy directly from the manufacturer  based on the quality of the product and service.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:53 PM  
I saw a Tesla just last week in Texas, with a Texas temp paper plate.  So at least one person in Texas managed to get one.  Texas needs to pull their head out of their ass on this, unless they plan on passing some outrageous  registration fees to make up for the fact that Tesla owners will not be paying road taxes through fuel purchases.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:55 PM  

whosits_112: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

I can imagine this Bill Wolters guy in a grey suit with starched white shirt, stiff collar, bolo tie, big 10-gallon Stetson, gator skin boots, gold watch and rings, and pushing about 260lbs. Talking in the thickets Texas drawl. What a douche...


I pictured the same thing but it is, unfortunately, inaccurate

http://www.tada.org/TADA/About/President_s_Message/TADA/About/Presid en t_s_Message.aspx?hkey=bd2b2568-e5c0-45e9-8aa6-d17d315c0f2d
 
2013-08-22 01:04:01 PM  
Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:01 PM  

simplicimus: mcreadyblue: simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.

They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.

Huh. I thought the 140 days were work days, not elapsed time. And lawyers vs. used car salesmen, I can't say which I'd prefer.


They often work weekends and have all night sessions.

The govornor can call for a special session at any time, but legislatures can only work on specified legislature. Or do nothing. ;-)

Bribes are perfectly legal in Texas ( except on the floor of the Senate or House and except by businesses ) so many just live off that slush money.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:41 PM  

ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.


I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:59 PM  

Nem Wan: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

All of these state bans could be challenged. The Commerce Clause gives the federal government a lot of power.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddganos/2013/05/15/north-carolinas-thre a t-to-tesla-likely-unconstitutional/


According to this article in the post, http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-24/local/40164497_1_tesla- m otors-model-s-elon-musk, thats probably what they'll do

Chief executive Elon Musk has said he might take his case to Congress or the federal courts. "If we're seeing nonstop battles at the state level, rather than fight 20 different state battles, I'd rather fight one federal battle," Musk told Automotive News in April.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:19 PM  

Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.


Yeah, that's probably it. It's not that conservatives told you that and you believed them.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:23 PM  
fark Texas!
 
2013-08-22 01:05:36 PM  
Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:51 PM  
They have already successfully booted [Tesla] out of Texas and there is anti-Tesla legislation pending in North Carolina, Colorado and Virginia.

So now the party of "Small Government" is going to dictate what kind of car we can buy? Is there no end to the micromanagement of the GOP
 
2013-08-22 01:05:52 PM  

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


Agreed.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:23 PM  

BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.


It passed in 2010
There's a blurb about it farther down the story I linked.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:30 PM  

Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.


you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:46 PM  

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.


Where doing everyone a favor?

cdn.chud.comView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:06:49 PM  
Yes but can you fit a dead hooker in the truck like in a Cadillac?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnlVqtAVsc
 
2013-08-22 01:07:09 PM  
Dinki

Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.

My grammar is a heck of a lot better than your grammar, chump.  How does one become a professional auto expert?  Sounds like a great imaginary job.  BTW, no need for your comma just before a conjunction.
 
d23 [BareFark]
2013-08-22 01:07:16 PM  

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Is this your office?

cache.jalopnik.comView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:08:47 PM  

ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.



Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?
 
2013-08-22 01:08:48 PM  

gnosis301: dj_spanmaster: Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.

I believe auto manufacturers have little, if anything to do with this. It's more like local car dealers doing this.


Oh sure, they're the vocal ones, and the ones directly in the lines of fire. But if you think major auto manufacturers aren't interested in this, you're misled. Individual dealers don't have a lot of money; it's most likely that the manufacturers are throwing their financial weight behind the dealerships, but letting them be the public face.
 
2013-08-22 01:09:53 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.

you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.


Uhh, normally an item that is purchased for resale is tax-free (or you can deduct it as a business expense on your taxes).  And I as the consumer wind up paying the sales tax on the car when I purchase it.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:09 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway


If you get the chance to drive one, do it.  Unfarkingbelievable car.  Two friends of mine each have one (one with the performance package, and one without), and I've driven both, and was completely blown away by both, though the one with the performance package is almost surreal and is certainly not recommended for those with a heart condition.  I've driven (and owned) a lot of very nice, high-end cars over the years, but nothing compares to the Tesla S.  I'm pretty sure I'll be buying one within the next year or two.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:10 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.


That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:35 PM  

Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.


Every time we do the bullet passes through and we strike oil.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:48 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.


In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:58 PM  
The small government, business-friendly environment strikes again.
 
2013-08-22 01:11:43 PM  

serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.


There's one in Houston by the Galleria and one in Austin also. Guess they didn't get the memo.
 
2013-08-22 01:12:09 PM  
Why are Tesla threads becoming the new tipping/IQ/kids on planes threads?
 
2013-08-22 01:12:19 PM  
All aboard the "C" ship, pardners!
 
2013-08-22 01:12:57 PM  

Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.


It can occur anywhere.  Conservative lawmakers just have to come up with more interesting justifications for why their actions totally contradict their policies when it happens in their area.
 
2013-08-22 01:13:11 PM  

serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.


Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.
 
2013-08-22 01:13:49 PM  

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.


Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:44 PM  

BigNumber12: ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.


Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?


The automobile dealer associations.  These are lobbying groups at the state level that represent the dealers.  These groups influence the legislators.

In this case, the deck is stacked against Tesla because its impossible for them to have any representation at the state level, in every state.  Thats why they'll probably take this to the feds as the post article I linked above mentioned.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:55 PM  
Ah, here's an article with a fun explanation of the Tesla buying process:
You can visit one of the two galleries Tesla Motors operates in the state - one in Austin, the other in Houston - but employees can't tell you how much the car costs. They can't offer you a test drive. They can't even give you their website address. And if you buy one, the car is delivered by a third party - in a truck that's not allowed to have Tesla markings.
"So the car just gets dumped off at your house," said Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk. "And the customer has to peel off the plastic wrap themselves."


Peeling off plastic is something I can manage (better than the local Ford dealership, as it turns out), but the rest of that is ridiculous.
I'm wondering how the "they can't offer you a test drive" thing works.  Does that just mean they're not allowed to suggest it, or I can't even go up there and ask to test drive it?
 
2013-08-22 01:15:15 PM  

Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.


You forgot Truck Nutz.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:20 PM  
Yet they have a problem with California trying to regulate that any eggs sold in California come from chickens that have minimum dimensions to live in because of interstate commerce, blah blah.  God these people just can't get any more hypocritical or petty.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:23 PM  

Lando Lincoln: About 50% of the human race is middle-men and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.


The problem is, once they're eliminated, we'll all be killed by a disease picked up from a dirty telephone.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:54 PM  

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.


Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:06 PM  

Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.


I assume that, like the vast majority of states, Texas charges sales tax on new cars purchased in the state, right?  The sales tax on a car that sells for close to 100 grand is quite a chunk of change.  Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Not sure how the Tesla dealer thing works in other states, of course, since I'm in Northern California.  Around here, buyers just pick them up from the factory in Fremont and drive them home.  As a bonus, they give you a tour of the factory when you pick up your car.  I got to along with a friend when he picked his new Tesla up there, and one impression you come away with is that Tesla is really in this for the long haul--the capital investment and technology in that factory is jaw-dropping for a start-up company.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:28 PM  

Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.


I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas
 
2013-08-22 01:16:31 PM  

simplicimus: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.


Yeah, we are really becoming a third world nation aren't we. Soon enough Tesla will top trying to fight these stupid laws and simply sell all their cars overseas where the real money is.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:33 PM  
This will surely create jobs.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:57 PM  

Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.


Did you read the part of the article where is says your state (Virginia) has pending legislation for the same thing?

/that foot you mention appears to be in your mouth
 
2013-08-22 01:17:02 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.


The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?
 
2013-08-22 01:18:12 PM  
Small gummermint freedumbs, North Mexico style.
 
2013-08-22 01:18:28 PM  
For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.
 
2013-08-22 01:18:48 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.


And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.
 
2013-08-22 01:19:15 PM  
Dear Texas,

Please make good on your promise to secede. Then you can do whatever backwards-ass bullshiat you want to.

Signed,

The USA
 
2013-08-22 01:19:23 PM  

This text is now purple: They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


Like walmart, mcdonalds and other giant multinationals do?  Why are cars any different?
 
2013-08-22 01:19:35 PM  
You could achieve the same basic principle by drafting the franchise agreements so the owners are compensated by salary and not sales volume.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:11 PM  

clkeagle: indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.


Except this isn't "big oil", it's car dealerships that are doing it to defend their entrenched legal protectionism.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:47 PM  

LandOfChocolate: BigNumber12: ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.


Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?

The automobile dealer associations.  These are lobbying groups at the state level that represent the dealers.  These groups influence the legislators.

In this case, the deck is stacked against Tesla because its impossible for them to have any representation at the state level, in every state.  Thats why they'll probably take this to the feds as the post article I linked above mentioned.



Oh ffs. Yes, I know which groups pushed for the creation of the laws because they stand to gain from those restrictions. I was asking about specific lawmakers who wrote and voted for the legislation.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:55 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway


saw the sedan (or as brits call it: a salooooooon) this morning on the way in. was super duper cool.

looked online - is it really only $50k ?  that seems like a steal cause even a crappy kia is near $40
 
2013-08-22 01:21:08 PM  

simplicimus: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.

Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.


I have to believe the profit margins on gasoline are higher, since electricity rates are so much more regulated.
It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.
 
2013-08-22 01:21:27 PM  

Dinki: simplicimus: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.

Yeah, we are really becoming a third world nation aren't we. Soon enough Tesla will top trying to fight these stupid laws and simply sell all their cars overseas where the real money is.


I think that's the overall GOP plan. If they can't turn the US into a third world country all at once, they have a state by state plan. See what's happening in other GOP controlled states.
 
2013-08-22 01:21:30 PM  
The Houston Chronicle today  said 700 Tesla's have either been sold or ordered in Texas, so apparently anybody savvy enough to want one can get one
 
2013-08-22 01:21:45 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.


Did you read the article?  Thats exactly the service that Tesla wants to provide because the dealers aren't (or will not) do it for them

"We actually train people to educate," explained Musk. "We always wanted to be a really low-key kind of friendly environment, where we're not constantly trying to close deals."

Musk wants to cut them out completely. He thinks customers don't like them and that dealers are prejudiced against electric cars.

"It takes them at least twice as much effort to sell someone an electric car and to educate them as to why an electric car is good," said Musk. "And so if we were to go through the traditional dealer path, the result would be a disaster."
 
2013-08-22 01:21:46 PM  
NPR's Planet Money had a great segment on the auto franchise laws, how they came to be, why they aren't going anywhere anytime soon and how they are used to prevent internet car sales, etc.  Good listen if you have the time:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-buying-a-car -n ever-changes
(4:27)
 
2013-08-22 01:21:49 PM  
We are currently looking to buy a new car, nothing ruins the experience like car dealers, just blatent assholes...
 
2013-08-22 01:22:02 PM  

THX 1138: Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.

It can occur anywhere.  Conservative lawmakers just have to come up with more interesting justifications for why their actions totally contradict their policies when it happens in their area.


True. I get very frustrated when stated conservatives act like liberals...drives me nuts. Despite the hiccups, its still a good business climate here, and I have no doubt Tesla will figure out how to connect buyers to sellers. No reason to be resentful, but this is fark so you guys flame away and i'll finish my lunch.
 
2013-08-22 01:22:31 PM  

Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.


Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.
 
2013-08-22 01:23:06 PM  
With every major car company looking for a share of the booming electric car market, the competition to go faster and further for cheaper has become an all-out war.

I stopped reading right there.  How do they write that with a straight face?
 
2013-08-22 01:23:24 PM  

This text is now purple: Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players


yeah we can't have manufacturers selling direct to the public

cdn.iphoneincanada.caView Full Size


winbeta.orgView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:23:47 PM  

Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.


Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:05 PM  
All I know is that I get freakin' giddy watching the stock price.

/Squee!  Up 5.65 as of 1:21pm.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:08 PM  
States' rights baby. What should be great about America.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:54 PM  
Alright, as a Texas Conservative (TM) I have been called a biggot, racist,fascist, redneck, inbred and that was just this morning during the news break.

But when you compare me with a car salesman or dealership YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR SIR!!
 
2013-08-22 01:25:04 PM  

clkeagle: indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.


I've always believed that certain companies will do anything to remain the largest monopoly. Rogers and Bell in Canada have been trying to manipulate the courts, the CRTC and the government for years making sure they have a strangle hold on cell, television, home phone and internet for years and year. Going as far recently as to take out full page ads in some of the largest newspapers trying to convince people that having a player come in from the United States in the cell phone market is bad for Canada. It's laughable, transparent and stupid.
Texas is doing the same thing. They see the future. And they know that it includes electric cars. It scares the crap out of big oil. They'll step up things in the next few years as more and more electric hit the road. But. It's unstoppable as far as I can see when gas is $1.30 a litre and costs $100 plus dollar to fill a vehicle, compared to recharging a car...for 25 cents.
And government are helping big oil (no it's not tinfoil hat talk). Simple reason. No more tax at the pump. We're talking billions and billions of dollars of lost revenue in the future unless they find a way to add a new tax in.
 
2013-08-22 01:25:10 PM  
because electric cars don't drive on gravel roads?

/fark TX
//fark Perry
 
2013-08-22 01:25:14 PM  

serial_crusher: simplicimus: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.

Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.

I have to believe the profit margins on gasoline are higher, since electricity rates are so much more regulated.
It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.


Well, living close enough to the gulf, I have a gas powered generator, so in theory I could have an electric cars and still buy gasoline.
 
2013-08-22 01:25:40 PM  
FTFA:  "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

I've lived in Texas for 15 years, so let me translate this for all of you who aren't that fortunate:

"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws to sell cars directly to buyers. If we made an exception for everybody let people do that, nobody would buy cars from us, because we're such a bunch of assholes that 'buying a car' shows up on the list of things that people hate the most somewhere between oral surgery and doing time in prison, so if we that showed up in the legislature our giant payoffs to the legislature could be circumvented, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril. we'd disappear entirely, and there would be great joy and celebration throughout the land. And we can't have that. Because we live in a free enterprise system, which requires bribes to politicians in order to keep it 'free.'  Why do you hate America?"

Hope that clears it up.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:10 PM  
Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:17 PM  
I just finished repairing a component for one of the robots that Tesla uses to manufacture their cars so Im getting a kick out of these replies
 
2013-08-22 01:26:22 PM  
Yo Texas, Don't mess with Teslas!
 
2013-08-22 01:26:27 PM  

serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.


Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:36 PM  
Car dealerships are the biggest scam going and they are not going to give an inch.
You would not believe the money that can be made in that industry, I was involved for many years.
And this is Canada, I would imagine the larger market of America would be worse for scamming.

How can you sell something that is now $10,000 off, with $2,500 worth of this, $1,000 worth of that and a trip to Mexico?

WHAT DID THE VEHICLE COST IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?

Did your buddy pay $15,000 more than you 8 months ago for the same thing?
 
2013-08-22 01:26:48 PM  

This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


Which smaller players are you worried about here?  The independent car dealerships?  Or smaller car manufacturers like Tesla?
The dealerships, I could care less about.
The small manufacturers are already getting screwed, so what would be worse?
 
2013-08-22 01:27:20 PM  
Texas,

i.qkme.meView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:27:22 PM  
Great business opportunity for Louisiana, Oklahoma, New Mexico.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:27 PM  
Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.  For a car at this price point, it will be easy enough to buy one elsewhere and just have it delivered.  I'm sure they'll still get their sales tax.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:29 PM  

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


A Dealership is typically required to provide service to their customers.  A Store isn't.  Hence, a Store can offer lower costs, because they don't have that whole extra service department and its overhead.

Dealers are also required by law to have the actual vehicle they advertise in their possession.  A Store can advertise a vehicle, and then tell you you have to order it yourself.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:38 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.


I've only been to Houston and Galveston. I heard that west of Houston all they had were cattle and oil fields, and men who loved them both.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:48 PM  

Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas


I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:59 PM  
How is this not considered racketeering?
 
2013-08-22 01:28:13 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.

Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.


East Texas, it's the Stars and Bars.
 
2013-08-22 01:29:59 PM  
Could Tesla work out some kind of deal with CarMax to have them be the exclusive sellers of Tesla cars?  You'd still get some markup, but the consumer experience would be fine, and it would be a great fark you to the traditional dealership scumbags.

I don't think you'd need to worry about the salesman being "prejudiced" against electric cars there (or at any dealership really).  People looking for a Tesla probably wouldn't be interested in the other Carmax cars and vice versa.
 
2013-08-22 01:31:02 PM  

HenryFnord: How is this not considered racketeering?


No Italians gangsters are invloved?
 
2013-08-22 01:31:29 PM  

This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.


If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.
 
2013-08-22 01:31:36 PM  

chrisco123: Dinki

Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.

My grammar is a heck of a lot better than your grammar, chump.  How does one become a professional auto expert?  Sounds like a great imaginary job.  BTW, no need for your comma just before a conjunction.


"How do you become a professional auto expert?"

...
 
2013-08-22 01:31:48 PM  
Yay! Free Market Capitalism!
 
2013-08-22 01:31:51 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level


Would you say that they don't have "people skills?"

i158.photobucket.comView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:32:26 PM  

Evil Mackerel: Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.


I just did...looks like a pretty dead place.  Mostly dead grass, sand, dust, and concrete.  Looks like a dirty, dusty, dirt brown zen garden from the air....
 
2013-08-22 01:32:28 PM  
Also, the franchise laws go way back. Can't blame it on Perry. I'm sure if he'd been around then and in a position to enable them, he'd have done so shamelessly and enthusiastically.
 
2013-08-22 01:32:45 PM  

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.


The grid has plenty of capacitors and resistors. Last I was in that industry (mid 80's to mid '90s) they weren't maintained and most didn't function. Too expensive to maintain, the shareholders needed the money more.
 
2013-08-22 01:33:48 PM  
Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:17 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


The manufactures might not own the dealerships, but they own the new car inventories and can pull your franchise at a moment's notice. They also own the certification of the techs, and have a lot of control over the branding of the dealership itself. I think that the manufacturers prefer to franchise the dealers because it creates a buffer zone of liability between the customer and the manufacturer. Cars need to be sold in a high pressure, commissioned environment and the manufacturer doesn't want to be responsible for that.

Tesla is a little different because it is a boutique manufacturer with a ton of hype and very little market competition. I personally don't think that running their own dealerships saves them a dime, but the CEO is a Jobs-esque control freak.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:17 PM  

inner ted: looked online - is it really only $50k ?


Yes and no. Nothing on-sale now is below $87,900 after rebate and before taxes. That's the price range of an Audi S8, a BMW M5, a Jaguar XJ, a Porsche Panamera, or a Viper SRT. Not exactly middle-class family sedan.

The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet. I'm guessing that thing will be like the 4-cyl castrated version of the Mustang -- only rental dealers will bother with them. That's in the range of the Audi A6, BMW 5-series, or the Cadillac XTS.

The most expensive Kia, by comparison, has an MSRP of $32k.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:40 PM  

inner ted: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway

saw the sedan (or as brits call it: a salooooooon) this morning on the way in. was super duper cool.

looked online - is it really only $50k ?  that seems like a steal cause even a crappy kia is near $40


The base Model S starts around $70k.  Then, there is a $7500 Federal Tax credit you can deduct when you file.

A $40k Kia?  You've got to be kidding me.  The full-size TOTL Cadenza is around $35k, before you start haggling.
 
2013-08-22 01:37:06 PM  

This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.


That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:26 PM  

Fireproof: Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.


They don't want to share that sweet, sweet profit margin with any middlemen.  They need to keep it for themselves, to keep the company profitable.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:30 PM  
If the car makers and dealers were smart, they'd learn from the music industry that the future cannot be stopped by lawsuits.

They need to change their business model, fast.

The future has arrived.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:43 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.


Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar
 
2013-08-22 01:39:02 PM  

CaptSS: Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.

Did you read the part of the article where is says your state (Virginia) has pending legislation for the same thing?

/that foot you mention appears to be in your mouth


Yes, I saw that but it is pending, not LAW like in Texas.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:32 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Fireproof: Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.

They don't want to share that sweet, sweet profit margin with any middlemen.  They need to keep it for themselves, to keep the company profitable.


Exactly.  They're managing to make it work by avoiding middlemen and need to jack up the price to pay those middlemen.  Good on them.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:40 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


If you're right, and dealerships like yours can truely provide better service to the point that manufacturers don't even bother with their own retail distribution, then why the laws? Why the worry on the part of the dealerships?
 
2013-08-22 01:40:00 PM  
car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.
 
2013-08-22 01:40:10 PM  

indarwinsshadow: Rogers and Bell in Canada have been trying to manipulate the courts, the CRTC and the government for years making sure they have a strangle hold on cell, television, home phone and internet for years and year. Going as far recently as to take out full page ads in some of the largest newspapers trying to convince people that having a player come in from the United States in the cell phone market is bad for Canada.


Ummm... I'd see at least a tiny bit of similarity if in this instance, existing car dealerships in Texas were being forced to allow a Tesla rep to be on-site at their facility to sell his company's vehicles.  But we're talking about a new competitor which has full intention of operating independently of the established dealerships, not piggy-backing on existing sales channels.
 
2013-08-22 01:41:47 PM  

chasd00: car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.


Having known my fair share of car dealers, I can honestly say the whole lot could go bankrupt and end up unemployed tomorrow and I'd have a steak dinner to celebrate.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:02 PM  
Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:29 PM  

Rev.K: So Texas will be banning iPhone, iPad and iPod sales too?


If there was a national cellphone franchise organization in the US with 'phone' dealers dealing and wheeling you bet it would;'ve been banned!
 
2013-08-22 01:45:18 PM  

mcreadyblue: Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.

Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.


Solution: have Elon purchase each car to be sold, then simply re-sell it back to Tesla at 100% purchasing price (thus creating paper trail), BOOM technically used. Next have Tesla post cars on used car search sites (or just make their own friggen' site).
???
Profit!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:08 PM  
Libertarian Rand Bots UNITE!!!!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:28 PM  
Lowest Model price Cash is 63K! Sorry, I can;t do that. When prices started going over $20K for cars I started getting Itchy. How much money do they think us Average Joe's make anymore these days? I remember when you could get a Base Road Runner for $3000! Just a few years ago I got my 2010 Sonata out the door for under $19K Cash. I'm putting just under 10K miles a year on it and fully expect it to last the 10yrs it has on it's warranty and then some. I got 13yrs out of my '96 Saturn and it was getting ready to Die. This Korean car is Way better than that POS was. In 2020 I'll be pushing 70 myself IF I make it that far. I figure I've bought my last car.
 
2013-08-22 01:46:29 PM  

IntertubeUser: Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.


I've already talked to my bank about the Bluestar when it becomes available.  Thanks to the various 'green' subsidy incentives, my bank is by far more prepared to help me with a loan for a Bluestar than a conventional gasoline vehicle.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:02 PM  

This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.


I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, but don't take delivery in that state--the dealer delivers the car to in your home state:  You do not pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will still likely get the temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state, but no sales tax is charged because you did not take delivery in that state.  When you go to the DMV to register it, you will be charged sales tax by your home state (in this case, the state where you took delivery) at the same rate as if you had bought it locally.

The one twist in this situation is that, in some states, you will be charged sales tax if you bough the car out-of-state in a state that doesn't charge sales tax at all (Oregon, for example) even if you took delivery in that state.  Though, again, I think this varies from state to state.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:20 PM  

Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.


A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".
 
2013-08-22 01:48:58 PM  
Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?
 
2013-08-22 01:49:03 PM  

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.


A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Your best bet is to find a place with a very steep hill, a body of water and a plateau. When you have too much energy, you pump the water uphill, then run it downhill through a generator to get the electricity back. But then you're paying two penalties for the losses from the extra pumps and generators

Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:28 PM  

studebaker hoch: If the car makers and dealers were smart, they'd learn from the music industry that the future cannot be stopped by lawsuits.

They need to change their business model, fast.

The future has arrived.


Heh, no farking way.  Legislating success is WAY easier than innovating.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:43 PM  

BigNumber12: the money is in the banana stand: In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level

Would you say that they don't have "people skills?"

[i158.photobucket.com image 636x341]


+1
 
2013-08-22 01:50:12 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: Why are Tesla threads becoming the new tipping/IQ/kids on planes threads?


I respectfully disagree.  They are the new "Priuses are harmful to the environment/driven by smug hippies" threads.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:26 PM  

LandOfChocolate: From: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-elec t ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/

The bills are being opposed by the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, the state trade association for franchised new car and truck dealers. Bill Wolters, the association's president, said that, while Tesla is a niche player, the bills could open the door to larger manufacturers coming into Texas and attempting to sell directly to customers.

That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.

Oh, fark you.  I understand that this guy has a job to do, which is representing his industry, but this is total bullshiat.

I wonder how it feels to stand in the way of progress and be on the wrong side of history?


Would you also rather the power companies to be able to sell directly to the consumer?   In theory, what this existing laws do is prevent monopolies by maintaining a sense of competition.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:36 PM  
Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.
 
2013-08-22 01:51:10 PM  
You can smell the fear in these threads.  It's why I love coming into them so much.
 
2013-08-22 01:53:03 PM  

HeadKase: There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.


+1 I've seen as many as 5 unique Model S Teslas in the same day here.

I hate living so close to Texas. You know?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:13 PM  

Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.


How does FedEx price that?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:28 PM  

PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.


Yet...
 
2013-08-22 01:54:05 PM  

simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.


Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-08-22 01:54:48 PM  

Psylence: Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...


Yeah, I just said that, Mr. Echo.
 
2013-08-22 01:55:45 PM  

IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success


For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

app.quotemedia.comView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 01:56:05 PM  

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


There's too many middlemen in the established system.
 
2013-08-22 01:56:55 PM  

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.
 
2013-08-22 01:57:24 PM  

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


Lobbyists at work...
 
2013-08-22 01:57:52 PM  
What has happened is that in the last 20 years
America has changed from a producer to a consumer
And all consumers know that when the producer names the tune...
The consumer has got to dance
That's the way it is. We used to be a producer - very inflexible at that
And now we are consumers and, finding it difficult to understand

The ultimate in synthetic selling:
A Madison Avenue masterpiece ...
A miracle ...
A cotton-candy politician...
Presto! Macho!Annotate

 Put your orders in, America
And quick as Kodak your leaders duplicate with the accent being on the dupe
Cause all of a sudden we have fallen prey to selective amnesia .

 Civil rights, women's rights, gay rights...it's all wrong
Call in the cavalry to disrupt this perception of freedom gone wild
God damn it...first one wants freedom
Then the whole damn world wants freedom....

As Wall Street goes, so goes the Nation
And here's a look at the closing numbers ...
Racism's up, Human Rights are down
Peace is shaky, War items are hot
The House claims all ties

Jobs are down, money is scarce
And common sense is at an all-time low with heavy trading
Movies were looking better than ever
And now no one is looking because
We're starring in a "B" movie
 
2013-08-22 01:58:20 PM  
New things are bad and can lead to taxes, gun grabbers, immigrants, black people, abortions, and anti-Jesusism.

At least that's what the oil industry is paying their politicians to say.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:21 PM  

dragonfire77: Evil Mackerel: Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.

I just did...looks like a pretty dead place.  Mostly dead grass, sand, dust, and concrete.  Looks like a dirty, dusty, dirt brown zen garden from the air....


I just flew in from Hawaii yesterday. The entire mainland looks as you describe. Well, there are some fields in the real flyover areas. This is a pretty dry continent.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:41 PM  

maxx2112: Create new company, sell franchises to new company, have franchise sell cars in Texas, tell Texas to suck it.


/ was that so hard?


New company has to be separate from the manufacturer - financially, personnel, etc.
But if that works, the dealers will use their deep pockets to buy off more state legislators to come up with some new bullshiat hoop to jump through.

/rent-seeking behavior
//economics 101
 
2013-08-22 02:00:35 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


Entergy has a number of dual plants, Gas/oil depending on market price. Same for Reliant in Houston, don't remember the actual overall Corporation.
 
2013-08-22 02:01:42 PM  

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


F*CK CAR DEALERSHIPS. Seriously. It shouldn't be a game to buy a goddamn car, but it is, because of dealers.

/AIso I think Chrysler tried this route in another state, and wound up in court over it because the auto dealers cried no fair.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:16 PM  

Blues_X: If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril.

So?


And here I thought that red states were all about laissez-fair capitalism. I guess that obtrusive, anti-competitive regulation is only bad when blues are doing it.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:58 PM  
Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:02 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


I can show you quite a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Electric_Industries#Generation
 
2013-08-22 02:04:32 PM  

studebaker hoch: Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.


You really can't blame the car dealers.  Tesla is sidestepping them entirely by selling directly to the market instead of selling to dealers who get to jack up the price for their own profit margins.

They're simply looking out for their own survival, but at the same time, FARK CAR DEALERS.  Most of them are scum.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:44 PM  

Cyberluddite: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.


Pennsylvania doesn't care. If you haven't owned it for more than 6 months, you pay sales tax in order to register in PA. They'll work out the difference w/ reciprocal states, but PA collects sales tax regardless of where you actually buy the thing.
 
2013-08-22 02:05:34 PM  
 
2013-08-22 02:06:29 PM  

Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar


They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!
 
2013-08-22 02:06:40 PM  
Another reason for the Texas ban, there is no gun rack.
 
2013-08-22 02:07:57 PM  

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...


Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is
 
2013-08-22 02:08:03 PM  

happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.


What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!
 
2013-08-22 02:08:36 PM  

This text is now purple: Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar

They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!


We'll see.  My bank has already promised me a loan for the down payment, so I'm good.
 
2013-08-22 02:09:23 PM  

This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?
 
2013-08-22 02:11:32 PM  

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Middlemen.  Lots and lots of middlemen.
 
2013-08-22 02:12:35 PM  
Audi provided a Tesla Model S for me to test drive (and video'd me doing it).   Sweet ride.   I also got to ride in the A8.   Got a bunch of Audi swag (jacket, water bottle, notebook) to boot.
 
2013-08-22 02:13:07 PM  

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.


There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid
 
2013-08-22 02:14:11 PM  

PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?


It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!
 
2013-08-22 02:15:43 PM  

Psylence: PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?

It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!


That's rather fascinating, actually.  I didn't know that was an option.  HMM.
 
2013-08-22 02:16:03 PM  
Is this your office?

[cache.jalopnik.com image 804x535]


I guess it's no coincidence that that monstrosity of a building looks like gigantic chromed tail pipes..
 
2013-08-22 02:18:01 PM  
Texas is a fascist state.

--Native and current Texan
 
2013-08-22 02:18:42 PM  
THIS IS NOT HOW SMALL GOVERNMENT WORKS.
 
2013-08-22 02:18:43 PM  

simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.


And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 110v plug.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:15 PM  

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Because it isn't capitalism if someone isn't getting f*cked.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:48 PM  
The Tesla Showroom here is Austin is pretty much across the street from me here at work.  It's not a traditional dealer by any stretch of the imagination.  It's in an outdoor shopping area (mall) with, ironically enough, an Apple Store a few doors down.  There's one car inside that you can look at and sit in, but you can't drive it.  I haven't taken the time to walk in there yet, but I believe the rest of the space just has a few computers setup where you can browse the Tesla website and order a car.

This guy has a couple of good photos.  http://evtd.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-visit-to-tesla-showroom.html

I think peeling the plastic off a new car would be fun!
 
2013-08-22 02:21:35 PM  
The problem is the demonic vehicles run on satanic magic and not God's sweet crude.
 
2013-08-22 02:22:51 PM  

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid


Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"
 
2013-08-22 02:23:14 PM  

Cyberluddite: simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.

And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 11 ...


Those public stations here in Austin are pretty cool.  You can pay like $2 an hour for them, which is a bad deal unless you're going downtown and would be paying $8 for a parking spot anyhow.  But I recently found out they also have a deal where you can get unlimited use on those for $25 a month.  I'd be all over that if they had a station within walking distance of my office.
 
2013-08-22 02:23:16 PM  

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind
 
2013-08-22 02:23:27 PM  

Cyberluddite: IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success

For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

[app.quotemedia.com image 555x290]


I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back.  Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

btw:  A market cap of roughly 1/2 of GM and 1/3 of Ford?  For a company that is delivering cars in the 4 digits per quarter?  I'd rather invest in bitcoins.
 
2013-08-22 02:26:35 PM  

PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"


That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?
 
2013-08-22 02:26:56 PM  

Onkel Buck: groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.

Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind


People are already making money off of it, just not the middlemen and 'that' is what has them in an uproar.

The established system with combustion engine vehicles has the car makers making money, the dealers making money and the oil companies making money.

Tesla's electric cars has Tesla making money and....that's it.  Well, maybe the people who build the recharge stations?  Unless that's Tesla, too.

You can see why there's resistance to Tesla's efforts.
 
2013-08-22 02:27:07 PM  
Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson
 
2013-08-22 02:27:44 PM  
^like the car
 
2013-08-22 02:28:45 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


It's absolutely cheating to name this one, but the American Samoa Power Authority.

/Of course, this would never work for the whole country the way it does for a small island
//And even they are currently trying to get off of diesel
///It cost like $100/month to air condition a 1-bedroom apartment only when I was using it.
 
2013-08-22 02:29:40 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Dude went out of his way to try and run that battery down and end up stranded...and then complained that the battery ran down and he ended up stranded.

If you're swayed by that, then you're better off not having an electric car because you may well find a way to kill yourself with it.
 
2013-08-22 02:30:04 PM  
In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:03 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Clarkson is the Kim Kardashian of the auto world. Famous for nothing, and has a very grating personality.
He is the worst part about that entire program.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:30 PM  

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.
 
2013-08-22 02:33:59 PM  

This text is now purple: They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players


Inferior business models die all the time.  And they should be allowed to die.  No one deserves to have their sales territory protected by the government.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:03 PM  

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.


You know free market blah blah blah
 
2013-08-22 02:34:51 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


It's always nice when someone both outs themselves as a dumbass and offers proof.

Thank you. You've made it easier for all of us.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:56 PM  
Free market!
 
2013-08-22 02:35:02 PM  

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFyxmdnv3qE
 
2013-08-22 02:35:18 PM  

IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.


True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:24 PM  

FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:39 PM  

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"

That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?


As appealing as "do it again, but right this time" is, that's about as probable as people wanting to toss/redo the tax code or (my favorite) rewriting code from scratch
 
2013-08-22 02:35:55 PM  

LandOfChocolate: That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.


So it hurts consumers to save money and it hurts rural communities to have ready access to services?  This guy is a prick.  There's no two ways about it.  Prick.
 
2013-08-22 02:36:59 PM  

mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.


I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:08 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


That's the Tesla roadster--essentially their Beta car from 5 years ago.  It's nothing like the S.  That's like saying that Windows 7 obviously sucked because you read a review of Windows ME back in 2000 and heard that it was a piece of shiat.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:18 PM  
It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:10 PM  

Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.


Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725


Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:44 PM  

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is


I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.
 
2013-08-22 02:41:48 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.


What it's protecting is the network of car dealers across the state of Texas.  Are they fat cats?  I don't know.  I do know that most of the car dealers I've ever dealt with were scum sucking bottom feeders, so it's hard for me to find any sympathy for their industry.

At most, I can simply suggest that they try to get some night classes in before their industry disappears.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:19 PM  
more likely because of auto dealers lining the pockets of lawmakers.  oh, and Jesus

(goes to read article)

Yup.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:31 PM  

FrancoFile: mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.

I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.


Oh, well... Carry on then!
 
2013-08-22 02:42:46 PM  
also, I need legislation for my buggy whip concession.
 
2013-08-22 02:43:23 PM  

This text is now purple: Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.

Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725

Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.


Yeah, if I had a Bluestar today, I'd be in trouble if I wanted to drive up to NYC.

But, since I won't have it until 2015 or 2016, I'm not altogether worried about it right now.
 
2013-08-22 02:44:31 PM  
dallas-ecodev.orgView Full Size
 
2013-08-22 02:50:19 PM  

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Because it's one of the best looking cars on the road ?

You had to stop three times ? it's really unfortunate that you were so incredibly inconvenienced.  That's really inhumane.
Incidentally,  how much did those recharges cost you ?

Btw, not only did you screw-up when you wrote "there" instead of "they're", but you also wrote "its" when it should have been "it's".  I know, I know, those grammatical trivialities are inconsequential compared to your suffering.

/so, how often do you crash ?
 
2013-08-22 02:51:53 PM  

Cyberluddite: True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.


#1 -- The Veyron did that too, even though Volkswagen lost money on every one.
#3 -- So claims Tesla. Looking at the IIHS and NHTSA stats, though, it looks like the Volvo S60 performs better.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=7577&mediatype=r&r_tstno=7577
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=8308&mediatype=r&r_tstno=8308
http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/5-Star+Safety+Ratings/2011- Ne wer+Vehicles/Search-Results?searchtype=compare2&make1=TESLA&model1=MOD EL+S&make2=VOLVO&model2=S60&year1=2013&year2=2013
 
2013-08-22 02:52:04 PM  

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is

I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.


I'd be amazed to see a citation on that. It was my understanding that gas plants had the ability to throttle their production quickly, and (at least in Tennessee), there's a lot of gravity energy storage scattered about to filter out the residuals.

Besides, filtering out the little overages/underages from when different power comes on/offline is a completely different ball game than trying to keep up with peak load in the middle of a hot summer day by storing energy overnight. One is trivially solved (and was, as far as I knew). The other involves storing an absolutely ridiculous amount of energy
 
2013-08-22 02:52:20 PM  

IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".


I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.
 
2013-08-22 02:57:13 PM  

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


If only you had internet access, you could try these things called "search engines" and one of them would probably direct you to the Dept of Energy's "website" with a further "link" to the Energy Information Agency.  There you would be able to read their list of Dual-cycle oil or gas fired generators and even a list of oil only fired generators.  I'm sure your local library has last year's paper copy.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:09 PM  

Cyberluddite: IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.


Yes, it's a great car and I am equally impressed with it.  In a rational world that should equal success but unfortunately it doesn't usually work out that way.  Irrational exuberance is never good for new companies/products.

The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM.  Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:17 PM  

Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.


It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:58 PM  

IRQ12: Cyberluddite: IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.

Yes, it's a great car and I am equally impressed with it.  In a rational world that should equal success but unfortunately it doesn't usually work out that way.  Irrational exuberance is never good for new companies/products.

The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM.  Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity.


How is it irrational?
 
2013-08-22 03:07:46 PM  
Made in the USA -- so fark that, lets ban it because we're patriots.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:06 PM  
So, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and New Mexico need to build Tesla stores right on the border. Maybe if Tesla vehicles got popular enough, Texas would feel the loss of revenue and revisit its ridiculous franchise law. Right now it is really a nonissue since they won't sell too many in Texas anyway. Maybe in Austin they would.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:07 PM  

Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.


Yup, Tesla is only a luxury car company now because it's easier to start out that way.  Fixing this broken law will help them reach regular consumers more quickly.
 
2013-08-22 03:11:24 PM  

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


That model wasn't the Tesla S and technology has moved on since 2008.  The only lessons that can be drawn from that test are that five years ago the original Tesla wasn't designed to be used on a racetrack and that the range of any vehicle is drastically reduced when it is raced. How relevant is that information ?

I enjoy watching Clarkson and Top Gear because it's an entertaining show. On the other hand, the opinions of anybody who thinks some of the world's least reliable cars (Aston Martin) are fantastic, or who believes Range Rovers with their ridiculous reliability issues are the world's best 4x4s, can safely be discounted for being heavily biased.
 
2013-08-22 03:14:08 PM  

IRQ12: The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM. Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity

feasibility.

The average American can't afford a $100k car, given that the median household income is something like $50k/year.  I'm sure most people would rather have a high-quality car, but first they need to worry about having a car at all.
 
2013-08-22 03:15:33 PM  

reillan: Although it sounds like a Tesla should never die, based on how unbelievably amazing all of its scores (read: press) have been.


Would a car that cannot die be something like a ship that cannot sink?
 
2013-08-22 03:17:18 PM  

serial_crusher: Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.

Yup, Tesla is only a luxury car company now because it's easier to start out that way.  Fixing this broken law will help them reach regular consumers more quickly.


Screw the law.  They're getting to the point where they can simply side-step Texas and any other state that wants to continue betting on a dying industry.
 
2013-08-22 03:22:41 PM  

Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.


Indeed. Tesla's stated plans are to launch the X model SUV in 2014, followed by the development of a $30k car. Selling the expensive cars is a necessary step on the way to financing a future cheaper model.
 
2013-08-22 03:22:48 PM  

whosits_112: happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.

What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!


Well, besides being the greatest state in the union and all....
 
2013-08-22 03:23:03 PM  
So Musk is declaring war on car dealers, but car dealers are also declaring war on Musk. They have already successfully booted him out of Texas and there is anti-Tesla legislation pending in North Carolina, Colorado and Virginia.

"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

Like the auto franchise system has any integrity.  The ONLY reason that law exists is to stifle competition.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:16 PM  
Eh, I don't envision a time in my lifetime when electric cars are reasonably priced.  I think it's far more likely we'll enter a phase where states war against each other in battery dumping conflicts.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:37 PM  
If the argument for dealerships is "service" then it's a total failure and should be dismantled.

A) Repair services - are generally terrible, slow, overpriced.  Only purpose would be extremely complicated problems that only the true expert for that make of car can handle - and that is where the MANUFACTURER is best placed to provide that service from a limited selection of special service centers.

B) Sales - I get that Chevy or Toyota make cars, and don't need a host of salesmen on staff.  Unfortunately the reality of it is that dealerships don't help with sales.  They get in the way of sales.  They lie, cheat, and intimidate their way to sales.  If a car manufacturer wants to control the customer service on sales, they should do it themselves, otherwise you get some slimeball giving you a con-job.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:57 PM  

Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.


That's what I was looking for, thanks.

// FTR, I am a dude, but I'm told that things called "slashies" often contain "humor"
 
d23 [BareFark]
2013-08-22 03:31:39 PM  
I don't think anyone should overthink this.

This is because the correct amount of money did or did not change hands.

It looks a little like India and Greece where nothing gets done without bribing an official (or something, like a law like this, DOES get done because of a bribe).

Texas is corrupt.
 
2013-08-22 03:34:54 PM  

happydude45: whosits_112: happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.

What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!

Well, besides being the greatest state in the union and all....


Small government, my ass.
 
2013-08-22 03:39:35 PM  

Infernalist: The Irresponsible Captain: It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.

What it's protecting is the network of car dealers across the state of Texas.  Are they fat cats?  I don't know.  I do know that most of the car dealers I've ever dealt with were scum sucking bottom feeders, so it's hard for me to find any sympathy for their industry.

At most, I can simply suggest that they try to get some night classes in before their industry disappears.


One major fat cat.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_McCombs
 
2013-08-22 03:42:16 PM  
Sounds really bootstrappy, what with all the protections for existing layers of middlemen and all.
 
2013-08-22 03:44:47 PM  
Yep.  What I thought.  The same reason most industries have regulations.  Not to protect safety or the environment, though that is the standard excused used to get the laws passed.  It's to protect the established businesses from competition.
 
2013-08-22 03:49:20 PM  

Apik0r0s: Sounds really bootstrappy, what with all the protections for existing layers of middlemen and all.


I agree.  We should just be able to buy our cars straight from the makers, at the prices they choose in order to maximize their own profit.  We should also be happy to put down a deposit, and wait several months while our car is custom-built, because picking one right off the lot is an obvious waste of economic resources on the automaker's part.