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(Yahoo)   Texas bans sales of Tesla cars, because Fark you   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 363
    More: Obvious, Texas, Fark, Motor Trend  
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20182 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2013 at 12:49 PM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



363 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-22 11:25:02 AM
The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers
 
2013-08-22 11:30:32 AM
If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril.

So?
 
2013-08-22 11:32:30 AM
So Texas will be banning iPhone, iPad and iPod sales too?
 
2013-08-22 11:32:36 AM
So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?
 
2013-08-22 11:36:38 AM

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


This is correct.  I don't know on the "fixed" question, but chances are the dealership.  Although it sounds like a Tesla should never die, based on how unbelievably amazing all of its scores (read: press) have been.
 
2013-08-22 11:43:04 AM
I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway
 
2013-08-22 11:44:42 AM

Barfmaker: I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store?


Less middlemen making money for nothing other than adhering to a bullshiat law intended to protect them, and for no other reason...
 
2013-08-22 11:57:05 AM
"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

imageshack.us
 
2013-08-22 12:15:06 PM
Just change their name to "Jesusmobile" and they will sell double-wide fold-out chairs down here...
 
2013-08-22 12:16:37 PM

UberDave: Just change their name to "Jesusmobile" and they will sell like double-wide fold-out chairs down here...


/Dammit
 
2013-08-22 12:31:15 PM
"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.
 
2013-08-22 12:34:03 PM
"If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.
 
2013-08-22 12:37:54 PM

Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.


Once again, an example of small government conservatism staying true to their ideals!
 
2013-08-22 12:38:32 PM
/conservatives
 
2013-08-22 12:39:15 PM
About 50% of the human race is middle-men and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.
 
2013-08-22 12:40:40 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got
 
2013-08-22 12:41:31 PM

Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.


I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.
 
2013-08-22 12:48:23 PM

simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.


instantviewreview.files.wordpress.com
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-22 12:51:11 PM
TEXAS IS THE AYN RAND LAND OF COMPETITION!

Texas sucks ass.  Whoever wins the auction makes the laws. What a joke.
 
2013-08-22 12:53:20 PM
If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."


you know, like letting women decide whether or not to have an abortion. Now, much less confusion as to where to go.
 
2013-08-22 12:53:46 PM

simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.


They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:42 PM
You would think that a "news" article would have at least covered the legal reasoning behind the ban. Maybe the author could have written a short explanation of what the franchise law is? Sounds like an anti-trust measure, but that would be stupid.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:54 PM
There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.
 
2013-08-22 12:55:20 PM
I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.
 
2013-08-22 12:55:41 PM
More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:06 PM

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


Tesla cannot own a dealership.

Texas would have banned Internet sales if the legislatures had figured out how that floppy disc with 10 free hours from AOL worked 15 years ago.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:27 PM
The whole damn state is a RHINO legislatively speaking. All hat no cattle.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:34 PM

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


That's a bizarre hijacking of feminist terminology in a completely unrelated subject, but to actually answer the premise is very simple: franchise laws create unnecessary middlemen, who by definition will extract an economic profit raising prices for consumers, when the market has demonstrated consumers are willing and able to purchase vehicles directly from manufacturers, at slightly lower prices.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:58 PM
At least the TABC is coming to its senses about craft breweries.

And while I have faith in Elon Musk's ability to outwit the Texas legislature, I have more faith in the Texas legislature ability to propagate their crony, GOB fiefdom.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:02 PM

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


Don't worry about it sugartits. Just tell your man that the electric car doesn't make your ladyparts hum like his jacked up F150 does.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:27 PM

Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got


car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:30 PM
Create new company, sell franchises to new company, have franchise sell cars in Texas, tell Texas to suck it.


/ was that so hard?
 
2013-08-22 12:57:32 PM
There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?
 
2013-08-22 12:57:36 PM
Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.
 
2013-08-22 12:57:40 PM
Ric Romero reports that the rich can buy legislation.  More at 11.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:00 PM
Gotta love them small government conservatives.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:02 PM

GameSprocket: You would think that a "news" article would have at least covered the legal reasoning behind the ban. Maybe the author could have written a short explanation of what the franchise law is? Sounds like an anti-trust measure, but that would be stupid.


Beer/Liquor manufacturers are also banned from selling to stores ( Walmart , etc ) or bars ( Applebys ).
 
2013-08-22 12:58:19 PM
Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:44 PM

mcreadyblue: simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.

They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.


Huh. I thought the 140 days were work days, not elapsed time. And lawyers vs. used car salesmen, I can't say which I'd prefer.
 
2013-08-22 12:59:20 PM
From: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-elec t ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/

The bills are being opposed by the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, the state trade association for franchised new car and truck dealers. Bill Wolters, the association's president, said that, while Tesla is a niche player, the bills could open the door to larger manufacturers coming into Texas and attempting to sell directly to customers.

That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.


Oh, fark you.  I understand that this guy has a job to do, which is representing his industry, but this is total bullshiat.

I wonder how it feels to stand in the way of progress and be on the wrong side of history?
 
2013-08-22 12:59:33 PM

Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.


Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.
 
2013-08-22 12:59:40 PM

Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.


I can imagine this Bill Wolters guy in a grey suit with starched white shirt, stiff collar, bolo tie, big 10-gallon Stetson, gator skin boots, gold watch and rings, and pushing about 260lbs. Talking in the thickets Texas drawl. What a douche...
 
2013-08-22 12:59:52 PM
LOL conservatives always support capitalism and survival-of-the-fittest in the marketplace, yet one of their strongholds won't let capitalism run its course? Hypocritical assholes!
 
2013-08-22 01:00:40 PM

Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.


All of these state bans could be challenged. The Commerce Clause gives the federal government a lot of power.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddganos/2013/05/15/north-carolinas-thre a t-to-tesla-likely-unconstitutional/
 
2013-08-22 01:00:55 PM
I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:00 PM

BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.


The legislators. They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:35 PM

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.
 
2013-08-22 01:02:20 PM
As a Texan who has spotted half a dozen Teslas scooting about town, I am rather shocked to learn about the distribution laws. Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.

I'd bet there's more to the laws than whats been presented in tfa, but it does appear the law might need a little tweaking.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:26 PM

dj_spanmaster: Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.


I believe auto manufacturers have little, if anything to do with this. It's more like local car dealers doing this.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:36 PM
More bootstrappy republicans getting government out of our lives for the defence of the free market. They must laugh at those blue states that allow consumer to buy directly from the manufacturer  based on the quality of the product and service.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:53 PM
I saw a Tesla just last week in Texas, with a Texas temp paper plate.  So at least one person in Texas managed to get one.  Texas needs to pull their head out of their ass on this, unless they plan on passing some outrageous  registration fees to make up for the fact that Tesla owners will not be paying road taxes through fuel purchases.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:55 PM

whosits_112: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

I can imagine this Bill Wolters guy in a grey suit with starched white shirt, stiff collar, bolo tie, big 10-gallon Stetson, gator skin boots, gold watch and rings, and pushing about 260lbs. Talking in the thickets Texas drawl. What a douche...


I pictured the same thing but it is, unfortunately, inaccurate

http://www.tada.org/TADA/About/President_s_Message/TADA/About/Presid en t_s_Message.aspx?hkey=bd2b2568-e5c0-45e9-8aa6-d17d315c0f2d
 
2013-08-22 01:04:01 PM
Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:01 PM

simplicimus: mcreadyblue: simplicimus: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

I'm guessing that since being a Texas legislator is a part time job, most legislators are car salesmen in the 8 or so months they have off. Most likely used car salesmen.

They only work 4 months every two years.

Most are lawyers.

Huh. I thought the 140 days were work days, not elapsed time. And lawyers vs. used car salesmen, I can't say which I'd prefer.


They often work weekends and have all night sessions.

The govornor can call for a special session at any time, but legislatures can only work on specified legislature. Or do nothing. ;-)

Bribes are perfectly legal in Texas ( except on the floor of the Senate or House and except by businesses ) so many just live off that slush money.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:41 PM

ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.


I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:59 PM

Nem Wan: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

All of these state bans could be challenged. The Commerce Clause gives the federal government a lot of power.  http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddganos/2013/05/15/north-carolinas-thre a t-to-tesla-likely-unconstitutional/


According to this article in the post, http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-24/local/40164497_1_tesla- m otors-model-s-elon-musk, thats probably what they'll do

Chief executive Elon Musk has said he might take his case to Congress or the federal courts. "If we're seeing nonstop battles at the state level, rather than fight 20 different state battles, I'd rather fight one federal battle," Musk told Automotive News in April.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:19 PM

Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.


Yeah, that's probably it. It's not that conservatives told you that and you believed them.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:23 PM
fark Texas!
 
2013-08-22 01:05:36 PM
Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.
 
2013-08-22 01:05:51 PM
They have already successfully booted [Tesla] out of Texas and there is anti-Tesla legislation pending in North Carolina, Colorado and Virginia.

So now the party of "Small Government" is going to dictate what kind of car we can buy? Is there no end to the micromanagement of the GOP
 
2013-08-22 01:05:52 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


Agreed.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:23 PM

BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.


It passed in 2010
There's a blurb about it farther down the story I linked.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:30 PM

Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.


you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:46 PM

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.


Where doing everyone a favor?

cdn.chud.com
 
2013-08-22 01:06:49 PM
Yes but can you fit a dead hooker in the truck like in a Cadillac?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avnlVqtAVsc
 
2013-08-22 01:07:09 PM
Dinki

Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.

My grammar is a heck of a lot better than your grammar, chump.  How does one become a professional auto expert?  Sounds like a great imaginary job.  BTW, no need for your comma just before a conjunction.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-22 01:07:16 PM

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Is this your office?

cache.jalopnik.com
 
2013-08-22 01:08:47 PM

ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.



Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?
 
2013-08-22 01:08:48 PM

gnosis301: dj_spanmaster: Ah, the GM and Ford lobbyists have been busy. They'll do it one state at a time, if they can't do it nationally.

I believe auto manufacturers have little, if anything to do with this. It's more like local car dealers doing this.


Oh sure, they're the vocal ones, and the ones directly in the lines of fire. But if you think major auto manufacturers aren't interested in this, you're misled. Individual dealers don't have a lot of money; it's most likely that the manufacturers are throwing their financial weight behind the dealerships, but letting them be the public face.
 
2013-08-22 01:09:53 PM

Voiceofreason01: Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.

you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.


Uhh, normally an item that is purchased for resale is tax-free (or you can deduct it as a business expense on your taxes).  And I as the consumer wind up paying the sales tax on the car when I purchase it.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:09 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway


If you get the chance to drive one, do it.  Unfarkingbelievable car.  Two friends of mine each have one (one with the performance package, and one without), and I've driven both, and was completely blown away by both, though the one with the performance package is almost surreal and is certainly not recommended for those with a heart condition.  I've driven (and owned) a lot of very nice, high-end cars over the years, but nothing compares to the Tesla S.  I'm pretty sure I'll be buying one within the next year or two.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:10 PM

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.


That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:35 PM

Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.


Every time we do the bullet passes through and we strike oil.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:48 PM

indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.


In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.
 
2013-08-22 01:10:58 PM
The small government, business-friendly environment strikes again.
 
2013-08-22 01:11:43 PM

serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.


There's one in Houston by the Galleria and one in Austin also. Guess they didn't get the memo.
 
2013-08-22 01:12:09 PM
Why are Tesla threads becoming the new tipping/IQ/kids on planes threads?
 
2013-08-22 01:12:19 PM
All aboard the "C" ship, pardners!
 
2013-08-22 01:12:57 PM

Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.


It can occur anywhere.  Conservative lawmakers just have to come up with more interesting justifications for why their actions totally contradict their policies when it happens in their area.
 
2013-08-22 01:13:11 PM

serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.


Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.
 
2013-08-22 01:13:49 PM

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.


Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:44 PM

BigNumber12: ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.


Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?


The automobile dealer associations.  These are lobbying groups at the state level that represent the dealers.  These groups influence the legislators.

In this case, the deck is stacked against Tesla because its impossible for them to have any representation at the state level, in every state.  Thats why they'll probably take this to the feds as the post article I linked above mentioned.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:55 PM
Ah, here's an article with a fun explanation of the Tesla buying process:
You can visit one of the two galleries Tesla Motors operates in the state - one in Austin, the other in Houston - but employees can't tell you how much the car costs. They can't offer you a test drive. They can't even give you their website address. And if you buy one, the car is delivered by a third party - in a truck that's not allowed to have Tesla markings.
"So the car just gets dumped off at your house," said Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk. "And the customer has to peel off the plastic wrap themselves."


Peeling off plastic is something I can manage (better than the local Ford dealership, as it turns out), but the rest of that is ridiculous.
I'm wondering how the "they can't offer you a test drive" thing works.  Does that just mean they're not allowed to suggest it, or I can't even go up there and ask to test drive it?
 
2013-08-22 01:15:15 PM

Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.


You forgot Truck Nutz.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:20 PM
Yet they have a problem with California trying to regulate that any eggs sold in California come from chickens that have minimum dimensions to live in because of interstate commerce, blah blah.  God these people just can't get any more hypocritical or petty.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:23 PM

Lando Lincoln: About 50% of the human race is middle-men and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.


The problem is, once they're eliminated, we'll all be killed by a disease picked up from a dirty telephone.
 
2013-08-22 01:15:54 PM

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.


Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:06 PM

Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.


I assume that, like the vast majority of states, Texas charges sales tax on new cars purchased in the state, right?  The sales tax on a car that sells for close to 100 grand is quite a chunk of change.  Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Not sure how the Tesla dealer thing works in other states, of course, since I'm in Northern California.  Around here, buyers just pick them up from the factory in Fremont and drive them home.  As a bonus, they give you a tour of the factory when you pick up your car.  I got to along with a friend when he picked his new Tesla up there, and one impression you come away with is that Tesla is really in this for the long haul--the capital investment and technology in that factory is jaw-dropping for a start-up company.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:28 PM

Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.


I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas
 
2013-08-22 01:16:31 PM

simplicimus: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.


Yeah, we are really becoming a third world nation aren't we. Soon enough Tesla will top trying to fight these stupid laws and simply sell all their cars overseas where the real money is.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:33 PM
This will surely create jobs.
 
2013-08-22 01:16:57 PM

Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.


Did you read the part of the article where is says your state (Virginia) has pending legislation for the same thing?

/that foot you mention appears to be in your mouth
 
2013-08-22 01:17:02 PM

Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.


The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?
 
2013-08-22 01:18:12 PM
Small gummermint freedumbs, North Mexico style.
 
2013-08-22 01:18:28 PM
For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.
 
2013-08-22 01:18:48 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.


And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.
 
2013-08-22 01:19:15 PM
Dear Texas,

Please make good on your promise to secede. Then you can do whatever backwards-ass bullshiat you want to.

Signed,

The USA
 
2013-08-22 01:19:23 PM

This text is now purple: They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


Like walmart, mcdonalds and other giant multinationals do?  Why are cars any different?
 
2013-08-22 01:19:35 PM
You could achieve the same basic principle by drafting the franchise agreements so the owners are compensated by salary and not sales volume.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:11 PM

clkeagle: indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.


Except this isn't "big oil", it's car dealerships that are doing it to defend their entrenched legal protectionism.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:47 PM

LandOfChocolate: BigNumber12: ampoliros: BigNumber12: Does anyone know who's behind and supporting the anti-Tesla legislation in CO? I'm having a tough time tracking that information down.

The legislators.


Yes, I kinda figured that legislators were responsible for the creation of a law... can we be a bit more specific?

The automobile dealer associations.  These are lobbying groups at the state level that represent the dealers.  These groups influence the legislators.

In this case, the deck is stacked against Tesla because its impossible for them to have any representation at the state level, in every state.  Thats why they'll probably take this to the feds as the post article I linked above mentioned.



Oh ffs. Yes, I know which groups pushed for the creation of the laws because they stand to gain from those restrictions. I was asking about specific lawmakers who wrote and voted for the legislation.
 
2013-08-22 01:20:55 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway


saw the sedan (or as brits call it: a salooooooon) this morning on the way in. was super duper cool.

looked online - is it really only $50k ?  that seems like a steal cause even a crappy kia is near $40
 
2013-08-22 01:21:08 PM

simplicimus: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.

Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.


I have to believe the profit margins on gasoline are higher, since electricity rates are so much more regulated.
It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.
 
2013-08-22 01:21:27 PM

Dinki: simplicimus: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

That's going to depend on how well they handle on gravel roads. We've got 6 counties who are converting some small paved roads to gravel. It's the paving material of the future.

Yeah, we are really becoming a third world nation aren't we. Soon enough Tesla will top trying to fight these stupid laws and simply sell all their cars overseas where the real money is.


I think that's the overall GOP plan. If they can't turn the US into a third world country all at once, they have a state by state plan. See what's happening in other GOP controlled states.
 
2013-08-22 01:21:30 PM
The Houston Chronicle today  said 700 Tesla's have either been sold or ordered in Texas, so apparently anybody savvy enough to want one can get one
 
2013-08-22 01:21:45 PM

the money is in the banana stand: I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.


Did you read the article?  Thats exactly the service that Tesla wants to provide because the dealers aren't (or will not) do it for them

"We actually train people to educate," explained Musk. "We always wanted to be a really low-key kind of friendly environment, where we're not constantly trying to close deals."

Musk wants to cut them out completely. He thinks customers don't like them and that dealers are prejudiced against electric cars.

"It takes them at least twice as much effort to sell someone an electric car and to educate them as to why an electric car is good," said Musk. "And so if we were to go through the traditional dealer path, the result would be a disaster."
 
2013-08-22 01:21:46 PM
NPR's Planet Money had a great segment on the auto franchise laws, how they came to be, why they aren't going anywhere anytime soon and how they are used to prevent internet car sales, etc.  Good listen if you have the time:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-buying-a-car -n ever-changes
(4:27)
 
2013-08-22 01:21:49 PM
We are currently looking to buy a new car, nothing ruins the experience like car dealers, just blatent assholes...
 
2013-08-22 01:22:02 PM

THX 1138: Walliser: Usually that kind of anti-consumer protectionism is reserved for more liberal areas of the country.

It can occur anywhere.  Conservative lawmakers just have to come up with more interesting justifications for why their actions totally contradict their policies when it happens in their area.


True. I get very frustrated when stated conservatives act like liberals...drives me nuts. Despite the hiccups, its still a good business climate here, and I have no doubt Tesla will figure out how to connect buyers to sellers. No reason to be resentful, but this is fark so you guys flame away and i'll finish my lunch.
 
2013-08-22 01:22:31 PM

Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.


Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.
 
2013-08-22 01:23:06 PM
With every major car company looking for a share of the booming electric car market, the competition to go faster and further for cheaper has become an all-out war.

I stopped reading right there.  How do they write that with a straight face?
 
2013-08-22 01:23:24 PM

This text is now purple: Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players


yeah we can't have manufacturers selling direct to the public

cdn.iphoneincanada.ca

www.winbeta.org
 
2013-08-22 01:23:47 PM

Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.


Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:05 PM
All I know is that I get freakin' giddy watching the stock price.

/Squee!  Up 5.65 as of 1:21pm.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:08 PM
States' rights baby. What should be great about America.
 
2013-08-22 01:24:54 PM
Alright, as a Texas Conservative (TM) I have been called a biggot, racist,fascist, redneck, inbred and that was just this morning during the news break.

But when you compare me with a car salesman or dealership YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR SIR!!
 
2013-08-22 01:25:04 PM

clkeagle: indarwinsshadow: Funny how they skip over the fact that Texas is an oil state. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

In the Tesla thread the other day, I said that it wouldn't be long before Big Oil finds a way to squish Tesla. I was accused of being a conspiracy theorist, that the Oil CEOs don't give a fark about Tesla, etc.

Leave it to Texas to crush others' faith in humanity.


I've always believed that certain companies will do anything to remain the largest monopoly. Rogers and Bell in Canada have been trying to manipulate the courts, the CRTC and the government for years making sure they have a strangle hold on cell, television, home phone and internet for years and year. Going as far recently as to take out full page ads in some of the largest newspapers trying to convince people that having a player come in from the United States in the cell phone market is bad for Canada. It's laughable, transparent and stupid.
Texas is doing the same thing. They see the future. And they know that it includes electric cars. It scares the crap out of big oil. They'll step up things in the next few years as more and more electric hit the road. But. It's unstoppable as far as I can see when gas is $1.30 a litre and costs $100 plus dollar to fill a vehicle, compared to recharging a car...for 25 cents.
And government are helping big oil (no it's not tinfoil hat talk). Simple reason. No more tax at the pump. We're talking billions and billions of dollars of lost revenue in the future unless they find a way to add a new tax in.
 
2013-08-22 01:25:10 PM
because electric cars don't drive on gravel roads?

/fark TX
//fark Perry
 
2013-08-22 01:25:14 PM

serial_crusher: simplicimus: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: Article is light on details.  I heard about some state like Tennessee trying to make a law that said you couldn't sell cars through the Internet, that would have still allowed Tesla to sell from their own showrooms (or partner with dealers, because who wants to build a storefront in Tennessee?).

Is that the same deal here in Texas, or are they outright banned for some reason or another?  Cause there's a Tesla showroom up in South Dallas.

Texas.  Oil State.  Electric Cars.  That's the reason.

Oil, natural gas run power plants. Electric cars are electric.

I have to believe the profit margins on gasoline are higher, since electricity rates are so much more regulated.
It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.


Well, living close enough to the gulf, I have a gas powered generator, so in theory I could have an electric cars and still buy gasoline.
 
2013-08-22 01:25:40 PM
FTFA:  "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

I've lived in Texas for 15 years, so let me translate this for all of you who aren't that fortunate:

"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws to sell cars directly to buyers. If we made an exception for everybody let people do that, nobody would buy cars from us, because we're such a bunch of assholes that 'buying a car' shows up on the list of things that people hate the most somewhere between oral surgery and doing time in prison, so if we that showed up in the legislature our giant payoffs to the legislature could be circumvented, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril. we'd disappear entirely, and there would be great joy and celebration throughout the land. And we can't have that. Because we live in a free enterprise system, which requires bribes to politicians in order to keep it 'free.'  Why do you hate America?"

Hope that clears it up.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:10 PM
Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:17 PM
I just finished repairing a component for one of the robots that Tesla uses to manufacture their cars so Im getting a kick out of these replies
 
2013-08-22 01:26:22 PM
Yo Texas, Don't mess with Teslas!
 
2013-08-22 01:26:27 PM

serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.


Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:36 PM
Car dealerships are the biggest scam going and they are not going to give an inch.
You would not believe the money that can be made in that industry, I was involved for many years.
And this is Canada, I would imagine the larger market of America would be worse for scamming.

How can you sell something that is now $10,000 off, with $2,500 worth of this, $1,000 worth of that and a trip to Mexico?

WHAT DID THE VEHICLE COST IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?

Did your buddy pay $15,000 more than you 8 months ago for the same thing?
 
2013-08-22 01:26:48 PM

This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


Which smaller players are you worried about here?  The independent car dealerships?  Or smaller car manufacturers like Tesla?
The dealerships, I could care less about.
The small manufacturers are already getting screwed, so what would be worse?
 
2013-08-22 01:27:20 PM
Texas,

i.qkme.me
 
2013-08-22 01:27:22 PM
Great business opportunity for Louisiana, Oklahoma, New Mexico.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:27 PM
Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.  For a car at this price point, it will be easy enough to buy one elsewhere and just have it delivered.  I'm sure they'll still get their sales tax.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:29 PM

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


A Dealership is typically required to provide service to their customers.  A Store isn't.  Hence, a Store can offer lower costs, because they don't have that whole extra service department and its overhead.

Dealers are also required by law to have the actual vehicle they advertise in their possession.  A Store can advertise a vehicle, and then tell you you have to order it yourself.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:38 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.


I've only been to Houston and Galveston. I heard that west of Houston all they had were cattle and oil fields, and men who loved them both.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:48 PM

Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas


I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.
 
2013-08-22 01:27:59 PM
How is this not considered racketeering?
 
2013-08-22 01:28:13 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.

Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.


East Texas, it's the Stars and Bars.
 
2013-08-22 01:29:59 PM
Could Tesla work out some kind of deal with CarMax to have them be the exclusive sellers of Tesla cars?  You'd still get some markup, but the consumer experience would be fine, and it would be a great fark you to the traditional dealership scumbags.

I don't think you'd need to worry about the salesman being "prejudiced" against electric cars there (or at any dealership really).  People looking for a Tesla probably wouldn't be interested in the other Carmax cars and vice versa.
 
2013-08-22 01:31:02 PM

HenryFnord: How is this not considered racketeering?


No Italians gangsters are invloved?
 
2013-08-22 01:31:29 PM

This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.


If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.
 
2013-08-22 01:31:36 PM

chrisco123: Dinki

Hmm, whom to believe? Just about every review written by professional auto experts and auto magazines, or a internet forum post by someone that doesn't even know the difference between they're and there. Decisions decisions.

My grammar is a heck of a lot better than your grammar, chump.  How does one become a professional auto expert?  Sounds like a great imaginary job.  BTW, no need for your comma just before a conjunction.


"How do you become a professional auto expert?"

...
 
2013-08-22 01:31:48 PM
Yay! Free Market Capitalism!
 
2013-08-22 01:31:51 PM

the money is in the banana stand: In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level


Would you say that they don't have "people skills?"

i158.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-22 01:32:26 PM

Evil Mackerel: Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.


I just did...looks like a pretty dead place.  Mostly dead grass, sand, dust, and concrete.  Looks like a dirty, dusty, dirt brown zen garden from the air....
 
2013-08-22 01:32:28 PM
Also, the franchise laws go way back. Can't blame it on Perry. I'm sure if he'd been around then and in a position to enable them, he'd have done so shamelessly and enthusiastically.
 
2013-08-22 01:32:45 PM

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.


The grid has plenty of capacitors and resistors. Last I was in that industry (mid 80's to mid '90s) they weren't maintained and most didn't function. Too expensive to maintain, the shareholders needed the money more.
 
2013-08-22 01:33:48 PM
Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:17 PM

the money is in the banana stand: It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


The manufactures might not own the dealerships, but they own the new car inventories and can pull your franchise at a moment's notice. They also own the certification of the techs, and have a lot of control over the branding of the dealership itself. I think that the manufacturers prefer to franchise the dealers because it creates a buffer zone of liability between the customer and the manufacturer. Cars need to be sold in a high pressure, commissioned environment and the manufacturer doesn't want to be responsible for that.

Tesla is a little different because it is a boutique manufacturer with a ton of hype and very little market competition. I personally don't think that running their own dealerships saves them a dime, but the CEO is a Jobs-esque control freak.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:17 PM

inner ted: looked online - is it really only $50k ?


Yes and no. Nothing on-sale now is below $87,900 after rebate and before taxes. That's the price range of an Audi S8, a BMW M5, a Jaguar XJ, a Porsche Panamera, or a Viper SRT. Not exactly middle-class family sedan.

The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet. I'm guessing that thing will be like the 4-cyl castrated version of the Mustang -- only rental dealers will bother with them. That's in the range of the Audi A6, BMW 5-series, or the Cadillac XTS.

The most expensive Kia, by comparison, has an MSRP of $32k.
 
2013-08-22 01:34:40 PM

inner ted: MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was behind a Model S on the way in to work this morning

/nice ride
//too nice for Texas, anyway

saw the sedan (or as brits call it: a salooooooon) this morning on the way in. was super duper cool.

looked online - is it really only $50k ?  that seems like a steal cause even a crappy kia is near $40


The base Model S starts around $70k.  Then, there is a $7500 Federal Tax credit you can deduct when you file.

A $40k Kia?  You've got to be kidding me.  The full-size TOTL Cadenza is around $35k, before you start haggling.
 
2013-08-22 01:37:06 PM

This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.


That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:26 PM

Fireproof: Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.


They don't want to share that sweet, sweet profit margin with any middlemen.  They need to keep it for themselves, to keep the company profitable.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:30 PM
If the car makers and dealers were smart, they'd learn from the music industry that the future cannot be stopped by lawsuits.

They need to change their business model, fast.

The future has arrived.
 
2013-08-22 01:38:43 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.


Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar
 
2013-08-22 01:39:02 PM

CaptSS: Walker: More sales (and tax dollars) for Oklahoma and other neighboring states. Keep shooting yourselves in the foot Texas.

Did you read the part of the article where is says your state (Virginia) has pending legislation for the same thing?

/that foot you mention appears to be in your mouth


Yes, I saw that but it is pending, not LAW like in Texas.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:32 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Fireproof: Someone explain to me why Tesla doesn't just get some independent franchises or get sold at some existing places like the law requires them to. The only reason I can think of is that they're smaller than the others.

They don't want to share that sweet, sweet profit margin with any middlemen.  They need to keep it for themselves, to keep the company profitable.


Exactly.  They're managing to make it work by avoiding middlemen and need to jack up the price to pay those middlemen.  Good on them.
 
2013-08-22 01:39:40 PM

the money is in the banana stand: For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


If you're right, and dealerships like yours can truely provide better service to the point that manufacturers don't even bother with their own retail distribution, then why the laws? Why the worry on the part of the dealerships?
 
2013-08-22 01:40:00 PM
car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.
 
2013-08-22 01:40:10 PM

indarwinsshadow: Rogers and Bell in Canada have been trying to manipulate the courts, the CRTC and the government for years making sure they have a strangle hold on cell, television, home phone and internet for years and year. Going as far recently as to take out full page ads in some of the largest newspapers trying to convince people that having a player come in from the United States in the cell phone market is bad for Canada.


Ummm... I'd see at least a tiny bit of similarity if in this instance, existing car dealerships in Texas were being forced to allow a Tesla rep to be on-site at their facility to sell his company's vehicles.  But we're talking about a new competitor which has full intention of operating independently of the established dealerships, not piggy-backing on existing sales channels.
 
2013-08-22 01:41:47 PM

chasd00: car dealerships are scared to death they're going to get the same treatment as the best buys out there. People come to the dealership and test drive then go home and order online direct from the manufacturer at a discount. That's what all this feuding and a'fussin is about.


Having known my fair share of car dealers, I can honestly say the whole lot could go bankrupt and end up unemployed tomorrow and I'd have a steak dinner to celebrate.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:02 PM
Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.
 
2013-08-22 01:43:29 PM

Rev.K: So Texas will be banning iPhone, iPad and iPod sales too?


If there was a national cellphone franchise organization in the US with 'phone' dealers dealing and wheeling you bet it would;'ve been banned!
 
2013-08-22 01:45:18 PM

mcreadyblue: Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.

Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.


Solution: have Elon purchase each car to be sold, then simply re-sell it back to Tesla at 100% purchasing price (thus creating paper trail), BOOM technically used. Next have Tesla post cars on used car search sites (or just make their own friggen' site).
???
Profit!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:08 PM
Libertarian Rand Bots UNITE!!!!
 
2013-08-22 01:46:28 PM
Lowest Model price Cash is 63K! Sorry, I can;t do that. When prices started going over $20K for cars I started getting Itchy. How much money do they think us Average Joe's make anymore these days? I remember when you could get a Base Road Runner for $3000! Just a few years ago I got my 2010 Sonata out the door for under $19K Cash. I'm putting just under 10K miles a year on it and fully expect it to last the 10yrs it has on it's warranty and then some. I got 13yrs out of my '96 Saturn and it was getting ready to Die. This Korean car is Way better than that POS was. In 2020 I'll be pushing 70 myself IF I make it that far. I figure I've bought my last car.
 
2013-08-22 01:46:29 PM

IntertubeUser: Shiat like this makes me want to own a Tesla as a big F*** YOU to the naysayers and conservitards.  Yeah, it's not the cheapest car on the road, but it is a great product and I'd certainly pay extra for the benefit of displaying my rebellious streak.


I've already talked to my bank about the Bluestar when it becomes available.  Thanks to the various 'green' subsidy incentives, my bank is by far more prepared to help me with a loan for a Bluestar than a conventional gasoline vehicle.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:02 PM

This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.


I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, but don't take delivery in that state--the dealer delivers the car to in your home state:  You do not pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will still likely get the temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state, but no sales tax is charged because you did not take delivery in that state.  When you go to the DMV to register it, you will be charged sales tax by your home state (in this case, the state where you took delivery) at the same rate as if you had bought it locally.

The one twist in this situation is that, in some states, you will be charged sales tax if you bough the car out-of-state in a state that doesn't charge sales tax at all (Oregon, for example) even if you took delivery in that state.  Though, again, I think this varies from state to state.
 
2013-08-22 01:47:20 PM

Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.


A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".
 
2013-08-22 01:48:58 PM
Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?
 
2013-08-22 01:49:03 PM

dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.


A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Your best bet is to find a place with a very steep hill, a body of water and a plateau. When you have too much energy, you pump the water uphill, then run it downhill through a generator to get the electricity back. But then you're paying two penalties for the losses from the extra pumps and generators

Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:28 PM

studebaker hoch: If the car makers and dealers were smart, they'd learn from the music industry that the future cannot be stopped by lawsuits.

They need to change their business model, fast.

The future has arrived.


Heh, no farking way.  Legislating success is WAY easier than innovating.
 
2013-08-22 01:49:43 PM

BigNumber12: the money is in the banana stand: In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level

Would you say that they don't have "people skills?"

[i158.photobucket.com image 636x341]


+1
 
2013-08-22 01:50:12 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Why are Tesla threads becoming the new tipping/IQ/kids on planes threads?


I respectfully disagree.  They are the new "Priuses are harmful to the environment/driven by smug hippies" threads.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:26 PM

LandOfChocolate: From: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-elec t ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/

The bills are being opposed by the Texas Automobile Dealers Association, the state trade association for franchised new car and truck dealers. Bill Wolters, the association's president, said that, while Tesla is a niche player, the bills could open the door to larger manufacturers coming into Texas and attempting to sell directly to customers.

That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.

Oh, fark you.  I understand that this guy has a job to do, which is representing his industry, but this is total bullshiat.

I wonder how it feels to stand in the way of progress and be on the wrong side of history?


Would you also rather the power companies to be able to sell directly to the consumer?   In theory, what this existing laws do is prevent monopolies by maintaining a sense of competition.
 
2013-08-22 01:50:36 PM
Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.
 
2013-08-22 01:51:10 PM
You can smell the fear in these threads.  It's why I love coming into them so much.
 
2013-08-22 01:53:03 PM

HeadKase: There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.


+1 I've seen as many as 5 unique Model S Teslas in the same day here.

I hate living so close to Texas. You know?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:13 PM

Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.


How does FedEx price that?
 
2013-08-22 01:53:28 PM

PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.


Yet...
 
2013-08-22 01:54:05 PM

simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.


Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-08-22 01:54:48 PM

Psylence: Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...


Yeah, I just said that, Mr. Echo.
 
2013-08-22 01:55:45 PM

IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success


For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

app.quotemedia.com
 
2013-08-22 01:56:05 PM

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


There's too many middlemen in the established system.
 
2013-08-22 01:56:55 PM

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.
 
2013-08-22 01:57:24 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


Lobbyists at work...
 
2013-08-22 01:57:52 PM
What has happened is that in the last 20 years
America has changed from a producer to a consumer
And all consumers know that when the producer names the tune...
The consumer has got to dance
That's the way it is. We used to be a producer - very inflexible at that
And now we are consumers and, finding it difficult to understand

The ultimate in synthetic selling:
A Madison Avenue masterpiece ...
A miracle ...
A cotton-candy politician...
Presto! Macho!Annotate

 Put your orders in, America
And quick as Kodak your leaders duplicate with the accent being on the dupe
Cause all of a sudden we have fallen prey to selective amnesia .

 Civil rights, women's rights, gay rights...it's all wrong
Call in the cavalry to disrupt this perception of freedom gone wild
God damn it...first one wants freedom
Then the whole damn world wants freedom....

As Wall Street goes, so goes the Nation
And here's a look at the closing numbers ...
Racism's up, Human Rights are down
Peace is shaky, War items are hot
The House claims all ties

Jobs are down, money is scarce
And common sense is at an all-time low with heavy trading
Movies were looking better than ever
And now no one is looking because
We're starring in a "B" movie
 
2013-08-22 01:58:20 PM
New things are bad and can lead to taxes, gun grabbers, immigrants, black people, abortions, and anti-Jesusism.

At least that's what the oil industry is paying their politicians to say.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:21 PM

dragonfire77: Evil Mackerel: Car? I thought everyone flew over Texas.

I just did...looks like a pretty dead place.  Mostly dead grass, sand, dust, and concrete.  Looks like a dirty, dusty, dirt brown zen garden from the air....


I just flew in from Hawaii yesterday. The entire mainland looks as you describe. Well, there are some fields in the real flyover areas. This is a pretty dry continent.
 
2013-08-22 01:58:41 PM

maxx2112: Create new company, sell franchises to new company, have franchise sell cars in Texas, tell Texas to suck it.


/ was that so hard?


New company has to be separate from the manufacturer - financially, personnel, etc.
But if that works, the dealers will use their deep pockets to buy off more state legislators to come up with some new bullshiat hoop to jump through.

/rent-seeking behavior
//economics 101
 
2013-08-22 02:00:35 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


Entergy has a number of dual plants, Gas/oil depending on market price. Same for Reliant in Houston, don't remember the actual overall Corporation.
 
2013-08-22 02:01:42 PM

Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers


F*CK CAR DEALERSHIPS. Seriously. It shouldn't be a game to buy a goddamn car, but it is, because of dealers.

/AIso I think Chrysler tried this route in another state, and wound up in court over it because the auto dealers cried no fair.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:16 PM

Blues_X: If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril.

So?


And here I thought that red states were all about laissez-fair capitalism. I guess that obtrusive, anti-competitive regulation is only bad when blues are doing it.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:58 PM
Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:02 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


I can show you quite a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_Electric_Industries#Generation
 
2013-08-22 02:04:32 PM

studebaker hoch: Car dealers are just afraid that Tesla is going to show up and be nice to people.


You really can't blame the car dealers.  Tesla is sidestepping them entirely by selling directly to the market instead of selling to dealers who get to jack up the price for their own profit margins.

They're simply looking out for their own survival, but at the same time, FARK CAR DEALERS.  Most of them are scum.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:44 PM

Cyberluddite: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

I have, yes.  And although the laws vary from state to state, my understanding of the usual situation is this:

Buy the car from a dealer out-of-state, and take delivery out of state:  You pay sales tax in the state where you bought the car.  You will get the kind of temporary registration that is typical for new car sales in that state (a paper license plate, a sticker in the window, etc.)  When you drive it home and take it to the DMV to register it, you show them the paperwork proving that you already paid sales tax in the state where you took delivery.  You will not be charged sales tax by your home state, since you took, delivery there.


Pennsylvania doesn't care. If you haven't owned it for more than 6 months, you pay sales tax in order to register in PA. They'll work out the difference w/ reciprocal states, but PA collects sales tax regardless of where you actually buy the thing.
 
2013-08-22 02:05:34 PM
 
2013-08-22 02:06:29 PM

Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar


They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!
 
2013-08-22 02:06:40 PM
Another reason for the Texas ban, there is no gun rack.
 
2013-08-22 02:07:57 PM

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...


Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is
 
2013-08-22 02:08:03 PM

happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.


What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!
 
2013-08-22 02:08:36 PM

This text is now purple: Infernalist: Kraftwerk Orange: This text is now purple: The barebones 40kWh base model ($49,900 after rebate) isn't on sale yet, and its specs haven't even been published yet.

That model has been dropped entirely. They decided it wasn't profitable, so they axed it from the line-up.

Yup, they're focusing on the Tesla Bluestar now.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_BlueStar

They just keep kicking that can down the road. Didn't they promise the S in like 2007? And the Model S was supposed to be that $40k model!


We'll see.  My bank has already promised me a loan for the down payment, so I'm good.
 
2013-08-22 02:09:23 PM

This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?


And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?
 
2013-08-22 02:11:32 PM

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Middlemen.  Lots and lots of middlemen.
 
2013-08-22 02:12:35 PM
Audi provided a Tesla Model S for me to test drive (and video'd me doing it).   Sweet ride.   I also got to ride in the A8.   Got a bunch of Audi swag (jacket, water bottle, notebook) to boot.
 
2013-08-22 02:13:07 PM

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.


There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid
 
2013-08-22 02:14:11 PM

PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?


It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!
 
2013-08-22 02:15:43 PM

Psylence: PerilousApricot: Psylence: This text is now purple: Cyberluddite: Sounds like Texas is willing to cede that revenue to other states, where Texans might go to purchase a Tesla.

Have you ever tried to buy a car from outside your state of residence? You'll just pay state sales tax again in order to register it and get plates.

If you buy a car out of state you only pay sales tax when you register it in your home state...

I bought a car from IL and had it FedEx'd to me in PA a few years ago.

How does FedEx price that?

It's about a grand anywhere in the US. Completely enclosed trailers... They bought a company a couple years ago that specialized in vehicle transport and took over their fleet. Little bit pricier than other services that use open trailers, but FedEx has much better guarantees, drivers, and equipment..
I got a $33K Mazda for $25.. add in the shipping and I still came out miles ahead!


That's rather fascinating, actually.  I didn't know that was an option.  HMM.
 
2013-08-22 02:16:03 PM
Is this your office?

[cache.jalopnik.com image 804x535]


I guess it's no coincidence that that monstrosity of a building looks like gigantic chromed tail pipes..
 
2013-08-22 02:18:01 PM
Texas is a fascist state.

--Native and current Texan
 
2013-08-22 02:18:42 PM
THIS IS NOT HOW SMALL GOVERNMENT WORKS.
 
2013-08-22 02:18:43 PM

simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.


And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 110v plug.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:15 PM

FrancoFile: This text is now purple: Marcus Aurelius: "This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

So these bootstrappy free market conservatives need the government to protect them from competition.

How utterly libertarian of them.

The idea behind franchise laws is less to prop up the franchisees themselves and more to prevent the auto manufacturers from implementing complete market integration.

Let me put it this way, if Tesla gets it's way, what's stopping Toyota, Ford, and GM from making equal protection cases and getting direct sales themselves? They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players. Are you sure you want Texas taking the libertarian ideal?

And why would that be bad?

It works for Apple.
It works for Sears.
It works for lots of apparel companies.
It works for Ikea.

Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


Because it isn't capitalism if someone isn't getting f*cked.
 
2013-08-22 02:20:48 PM
The Tesla Showroom here is Austin is pretty much across the street from me here at work.  It's not a traditional dealer by any stretch of the imagination.  It's in an outdoor shopping area (mall) with, ironically enough, an Apple Store a few doors down.  There's one car inside that you can look at and sit in, but you can't drive it.  I haven't taken the time to walk in there yet, but I believe the rest of the space just has a few computers setup where you can browse the Tesla website and order a car.

This guy has a couple of good photos.  http://evtd.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-visit-to-tesla-showroom.html

I think peeling the plastic off a new car would be fun!
 
2013-08-22 02:21:35 PM
The problem is the demonic vehicles run on satanic magic and not God's sweet crude.
 
2013-08-22 02:22:51 PM

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid


Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"
 
2013-08-22 02:23:14 PM

Cyberluddite: simplicimus: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yep.  Has a new one opening in San Marcos, a little bit south of Austin.

And, of course, while the Tesla Supercharge stations charge the car incredibly fast (and for free), you don't need one of those to charge a Tesla.  They're great, of course, because if you pull in when the car has only, let's say, 50% of the battery power left, it takes only an hour or less for you get a full charge, all for free.  And they tend to be connected to restaurant and shopping locations, so you can have lunch while it's charging, and essentially the lunch is on Tesla because they've just given you the equivalent of a free "tank" of fuel that, if it was a tank of gasoline, would cost more than your lunch.

But you can also fully charge it overnight with your home 220v charging station that comes with the car and that you wire up in your garage, and there are lots of "generic" (non-Tesla) charging stations in any city that are used for charging any and all electric vehicles (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, plug-in hybrids, glorified golf carts, etc.)--for example, there are a couple of them in the parking garage in the building where my office is, and in most other large parking structures or lots.  All of these work to charge up the Tesla, too.  Though these options generally cost money (a small fee in the case of parking facility charging stations, and whatever your local utility company charges for the power you consume at home when charging the battery--all of which is way cheaper than a tank of gas), and while they charge up the battery reasonably quickly, it's not incredibly fast like the Tesla Supercharge stations.  In a pinch, you can also top the battery off by just plugging the car into any ordinary household 110v plug with an extension cord, but that's incredibly slow for doing real charging--it would take days to fully charge a battery that had run nearly all the way down using a regular 11 ...


Those public stations here in Austin are pretty cool.  You can pay like $2 an hour for them, which is a bad deal unless you're going downtown and would be paying $8 for a parking spot anyhow.  But I recently found out they also have a deal where you can get unlimited use on those for $25 a month.  I'd be all over that if they had a station within walking distance of my office.
 
2013-08-22 02:23:16 PM

groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.


Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind
 
2013-08-22 02:23:27 PM

Cyberluddite: IRQ12: Tesla may not be a success

For those of us who purchased stock in the company early this year, it certainly has been a success.  I bought it at around $40 in March or April, and as of this moment it's at about $154:

[app.quotemedia.com image 555x290]


I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back.  Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

btw:  A market cap of roughly 1/2 of GM and 1/3 of Ford?  For a company that is delivering cars in the 4 digits per quarter?  I'd rather invest in bitcoins.
 
2013-08-22 02:26:35 PM

PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"


That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?
 
2013-08-22 02:26:56 PM

Onkel Buck: groppet: Wow these dumbasses are really that scared of the future. Why not embrace it and make more money off it you putz.

Because then people would biatch about that. You really cant win. Everyone has a whiney axe to grind


People are already making money off of it, just not the middlemen and 'that' is what has them in an uproar.

The established system with combustion engine vehicles has the car makers making money, the dealers making money and the oil companies making money.

Tesla's electric cars has Tesla making money and....that's it.  Well, maybe the people who build the recharge stations?  Unless that's Tesla, too.

You can see why there's resistance to Tesla's efforts.
 
2013-08-22 02:27:07 PM
Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson
 
2013-08-22 02:27:44 PM
^like the car
 
2013-08-22 02:28:45 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


It's absolutely cheating to name this one, but the American Samoa Power Authority.

/Of course, this would never work for the whole country the way it does for a small island
//And even they are currently trying to get off of diesel
///It cost like $100/month to air condition a 1-bedroom apartment only when I was using it.
 
2013-08-22 02:29:40 PM

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Dude went out of his way to try and run that battery down and end up stranded...and then complained that the battery ran down and he ended up stranded.

If you're swayed by that, then you're better off not having an electric car because you may well find a way to kill yourself with it.
 
2013-08-22 02:30:04 PM
In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:03 PM

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


Clarkson is the Kim Kardashian of the auto world. Famous for nothing, and has a very grating personality.
He is the worst part about that entire program.
 
2013-08-22 02:31:30 PM

Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?


Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.
 
2013-08-22 02:33:59 PM

This text is now purple: They'll use their far superior distribution chain and production capacity to overwhelm the smaller players


Inferior business models die all the time.  And they should be allowed to die.  No one deserves to have their sales territory protected by the government.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:03 PM

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam.


You know free market blah blah blah
 
2013-08-22 02:34:51 PM

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


It's always nice when someone both outs themselves as a dumbass and offers proof.

Thank you. You've made it easier for all of us.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:56 PM
Free market!
 
2013-08-22 02:35:02 PM

Begoggle: In 2013 there should be no reason why I can't buy a car directly from a manufacturer without dealerships in the middle.
What a scam
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFyxmdnv3qE
 
2013-08-22 02:35:18 PM

IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.


True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:24 PM

FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?


For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.
 
2013-08-22 02:35:39 PM

Strik3r: PerilousApricot: Strik3r: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: serial_crusher: We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

Build capacitance into the grid.  Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.  Increase capacitance, and you don't run into the issue where one terminal station overload causes everything else in the chain to go down.  Much more time to ramp production of electricity up or down to meet demand, less loss in the grid, and less wasted production.

A rough calculation will show that it's not quite as easy as "increasing capacitance". A capacitor bank storing, say, a megawatt-hour of charge would be farking enormous, and arguably cheaper to just buole another plant.

There ARE options......

http://energy.gov/articles/liquid-layer-solution-grid

Right, and like I said, it would be either gigantic or inefficient. 10-20% losses aren't *too* bad (though you need AC/DC conversion and transformers losses to step the voltages down .. that makes it a bit worse), but at the scale you'd need to make a dent in smoothing out the supply to make the load, you're talking an enormous amount of infrastructure.

Point I was trying to make was that "fixing the grid" isn't as simple as "add capacitance to it"

That's only one option. There are others but I have real work I should be doing instead of trying to educate people on the options we have available to upgrade our aging grid....

/I do agree that "the grid" needs more than just capacitance, It needs a complete overhaul anyway so why not do it right?


As appealing as "do it again, but right this time" is, that's about as probable as people wanting to toss/redo the tax code or (my favorite) rewriting code from scratch
 
2013-08-22 02:35:55 PM

LandOfChocolate: That ultimately would hurt consumers, he said, because franchise dealers compete with each other to keep prices down and they serve customers in rural communities.


So it hurts consumers to save money and it hurts rural communities to have ready access to services?  This guy is a prick.  There's no two ways about it.  Prick.
 
2013-08-22 02:36:59 PM

mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.


I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:08 PM

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


That's the Tesla roadster--essentially their Beta car from 5 years ago.  It's nothing like the S.  That's like saying that Windows 7 obviously sucked because you read a review of Windows ME back in 2000 and heard that it was a piece of shiat.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:18 PM
It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:10 PM

Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.


Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725


Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.
 
2013-08-22 02:40:44 PM

PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is


I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.
 
2013-08-22 02:41:48 PM

The Irresponsible Captain: It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.


What it's protecting is the network of car dealers across the state of Texas.  Are they fat cats?  I don't know.  I do know that most of the car dealers I've ever dealt with were scum sucking bottom feeders, so it's hard for me to find any sympathy for their industry.

At most, I can simply suggest that they try to get some night classes in before their industry disappears.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:19 PM
more likely because of auto dealers lining the pockets of lawmakers.  oh, and Jesus

(goes to read article)

Yup.
 
2013-08-22 02:42:31 PM

FrancoFile: mongbiohazard: FrancoFile: Why is it important to have independent car dealerships?

For the public and for the market it wouldn't be bad at all. Having dealerships protected by law increases the cost of all automobiles by several thousand dollars. Consumers would benefit.

The reason why it will be difficult to change is because it would be very bad for local and state politicians. You need to be pretty wealthy to start a dealership, and those dealerships tend to contribute heavily to local and state politicians either directly or through associations. The politicians don't want to piss off major campaign contributors, so they make sure to keep them protected.

Soooooo many parts of our market have devolved from capitalism to crony capitalism.

I know all that.  I'm waiting for the dealership-model-white-knights to respond.


Oh, well... Carry on then!
 
2013-08-22 02:42:46 PM
also, I need legislation for my buggy whip concession.
 
2013-08-22 02:43:23 PM

This text is now purple: Deucednuisance: Infernalist: Do we know if Tesla is setting up recharging stations in Texas?

Yup.  We do, and they are.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Use the little slider doohickey below the map to see planned expansion.

Between Exits 1 and 3Delaware Welcome Center and Travel Plaza
530 JFK Memorial Highway
Newark, DE 19725

Nice. The only station between Connecticut and Florida is located in a rest stop off of a toll road. Just getting to that station will cost you at least $5.


Yeah, if I had a Bluestar today, I'd be in trouble if I wanted to drive up to NYC.

But, since I won't have it until 2015 or 2016, I'm not altogether worried about it right now.
 
2013-08-22 02:44:31 PM
www.dallas-ecodev.org
 
2013-08-22 02:50:19 PM

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


Because it's one of the best looking cars on the road ?

You had to stop three times ? it's really unfortunate that you were so incredibly inconvenienced.  That's really inhumane.
Incidentally,  how much did those recharges cost you ?

Btw, not only did you screw-up when you wrote "there" instead of "they're", but you also wrote "its" when it should have been "it's".  I know, I know, those grammatical trivialities are inconsequential compared to your suffering.

/so, how often do you crash ?
 
2013-08-22 02:51:53 PM

Cyberluddite: True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.


#1 -- The Veyron did that too, even though Volkswagen lost money on every one.
#3 -- So claims Tesla. Looking at the IIHS and NHTSA stats, though, it looks like the Volvo S60 performs better.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=7577&mediatype=r&r_tstno=7577
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/aspx/searchmedia2.aspx?databas e= v&tstno=8308&mediatype=r&r_tstno=8308
http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/5-Star+Safety+Ratings/2011- Ne wer+Vehicles/Search-Results?searchtype=compare2&make1=TESLA&model1=MOD EL+S&make2=VOLVO&model2=S60&year1=2013&year2=2013
 
2013-08-22 02:52:04 PM

dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: dragonfire77: PerilousApricot: Transient (and efficient!) energy storage at that scale basically doesn't exist.

Yet...

Physically, it just can't. Think about it like this: you burn X for Y time, and you get Z kW-hr of electricity. If you want to store Z at night so you can use it in the day, you need to have the equivalent of X*Y sitting around somewhere. There's fundamental limits to how densely you can store energy, and even if you assume the ideal, you either get farked on how gigantic such a system would need to be or by paying some massive penalties from converting to/from whatever your storage is

I know that perfect energy storage is a physical impossibility.  But SOME energy storage is better than none.  People would be amazed how much of the electricity we produce simply 'goes to ground' because it's not needed.  The primary benefit would be to allow some ramp-up or ramp-down time when demand for energy changes.  This would allow production to be run a little more efficiently.


I'd be amazed to see a citation on that. It was my understanding that gas plants had the ability to throttle their production quickly, and (at least in Tennessee), there's a lot of gravity energy storage scattered about to filter out the residuals.

Besides, filtering out the little overages/underages from when different power comes on/offline is a completely different ball game than trying to keep up with peak load in the middle of a hot summer day by storing energy overnight. One is trivially solved (and was, as far as I knew). The other involves storing an absolutely ridiculous amount of energy
 
2013-08-22 02:52:20 PM

IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".


I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.
 
2013-08-22 02:57:13 PM

Deucednuisance: simplicimus: Oil, natural gas run power plants.

Show me one commercial utility in the US that runs its generators on oil.

Just one.

Good luck with that.


If only you had internet access, you could try these things called "search engines" and one of them would probably direct you to the Dept of Energy's "website" with a further "link" to the Energy Information Agency.  There you would be able to read their list of Dual-cycle oil or gas fired generators and even a list of oil only fired generators.  I'm sure your local library has last year's paper copy.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:09 PM

Cyberluddite: IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.


Yes, it's a great car and I am equally impressed with it.  In a rational world that should equal success but unfortunately it doesn't usually work out that way.  Irrational exuberance is never good for new companies/products.

The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM.  Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:17 PM

Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.


It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.
 
2013-08-22 03:00:58 PM

IRQ12: Cyberluddite: IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.

Yes, it's a great car and I am equally impressed with it.  In a rational world that should equal success but unfortunately it doesn't usually work out that way.  Irrational exuberance is never good for new companies/products.

The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM.  Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity.


How is it irrational?
 
2013-08-22 03:07:46 PM
Made in the USA -- so fark that, lets ban it because we're patriots.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:06 PM
So, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and New Mexico need to build Tesla stores right on the border. Maybe if Tesla vehicles got popular enough, Texas would feel the loss of revenue and revisit its ridiculous franchise law. Right now it is really a nonissue since they won't sell too many in Texas anyway. Maybe in Austin they would.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:07 PM

Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.


Yup, Tesla is only a luxury car company now because it's easier to start out that way.  Fixing this broken law will help them reach regular consumers more quickly.
 
2013-08-22 03:11:24 PM

lendog: Do I think the law in Texas is good?  I don't know.  I do know that Jeremy Clarkson didn't car for a Tesla a few years ago and that is all I need to know.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/mar/05/top-gear-tesla-jeremy-c la rkson


That model wasn't the Tesla S and technology has moved on since 2008.  The only lessons that can be drawn from that test are that five years ago the original Tesla wasn't designed to be used on a racetrack and that the range of any vehicle is drastically reduced when it is raced. How relevant is that information ?

I enjoy watching Clarkson and Top Gear because it's an entertaining show. On the other hand, the opinions of anybody who thinks some of the world's least reliable cars (Aston Martin) are fantastic, or who believes Range Rovers with their ridiculous reliability issues are the world's best 4x4s, can safely be discounted for being heavily biased.
 
2013-08-22 03:14:08 PM

IRQ12: The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM. Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity

feasibility.

The average American can't afford a $100k car, given that the median household income is something like $50k/year.  I'm sure most people would rather have a high-quality car, but first they need to worry about having a car at all.
 
2013-08-22 03:15:33 PM

reillan: Although it sounds like a Tesla should never die, based on how unbelievably amazing all of its scores (read: press) have been.


Would a car that cannot die be something like a ship that cannot sink?
 
2013-08-22 03:17:18 PM

serial_crusher: Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.

Yup, Tesla is only a luxury car company now because it's easier to start out that way.  Fixing this broken law will help them reach regular consumers more quickly.


Screw the law.  They're getting to the point where they can simply side-step Texas and any other state that wants to continue betting on a dying industry.
 
2013-08-22 03:22:41 PM

Infernalist: Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.

It's a luxury car company until it isn't a luxury car company anymore.


Indeed. Tesla's stated plans are to launch the X model SUV in 2014, followed by the development of a $30k car. Selling the expensive cars is a necessary step on the way to financing a future cheaper model.
 
2013-08-22 03:22:48 PM

whosits_112: happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.

What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!


Well, besides being the greatest state in the union and all....
 
2013-08-22 03:23:03 PM
So Musk is declaring war on car dealers, but car dealers are also declaring war on Musk. They have already successfully booted him out of Texas and there is anti-Tesla legislation pending in North Carolina, Colorado and Virginia.

"This happens all the time," said Bill Wolters, the president of the Texas Automobile Dealers Association. "Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

Like the auto franchise system has any integrity.  The ONLY reason that law exists is to stifle competition.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:16 PM
Eh, I don't envision a time in my lifetime when electric cars are reasonably priced.  I think it's far more likely we'll enter a phase where states war against each other in battery dumping conflicts.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:37 PM
If the argument for dealerships is "service" then it's a total failure and should be dismantled.

A) Repair services - are generally terrible, slow, overpriced.  Only purpose would be extremely complicated problems that only the true expert for that make of car can handle - and that is where the MANUFACTURER is best placed to provide that service from a limited selection of special service centers.

B) Sales - I get that Chevy or Toyota make cars, and don't need a host of salesmen on staff.  Unfortunately the reality of it is that dealerships don't help with sales.  They get in the way of sales.  They lie, cheat, and intimidate their way to sales.  If a car manufacturer wants to control the customer service on sales, they should do it themselves, otherwise you get some slimeball giving you a con-job.
 
2013-08-22 03:23:57 PM

Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.


That's what I was looking for, thanks.

// FTR, I am a dude, but I'm told that things called "slashies" often contain "humor"
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-08-22 03:31:39 PM
I don't think anyone should overthink this.

This is because the correct amount of money did or did not change hands.

It looks a little like India and Greece where nothing gets done without bribing an official (or something, like a law like this, DOES get done because of a bribe).

Texas is corrupt.
 
2013-08-22 03:34:54 PM

happydude45: whosits_112: happydude45: Nhojwolfe: Another Government Employee: I think the same thing applies in Massachusets.  I remember a dealer up there filing a Federal suit to completely stop the sales of Tesla products on Interstate Commerce provisions.  Never did hear the outcome.

I also remember reading about this from Newyork as well.

But lets all focus on Texas

I, for one, think it is cute how all of the jealous non-Texans react to our state. Funny as hell.

What's there to be jealous of? I live here, and I can tell you, Texas is nothing to be proud of, son. It's like you are saying that the kids making fun of the 'tard are jealous of the 'tard. Yeah, it's so f*cking awesome to be able to count to potato!

Well, besides being the greatest state in the union and all....


Small government, my ass.
 
2013-08-22 03:39:35 PM

Infernalist: The Irresponsible Captain: It's protectionism and only serves to line the pockets of fat cats.

It's not like any auto dealer has a monopoly on cars and needs to be regulated. I say open it up to the free market.

What it's protecting is the network of car dealers across the state of Texas.  Are they fat cats?  I don't know.  I do know that most of the car dealers I've ever dealt with were scum sucking bottom feeders, so it's hard for me to find any sympathy for their industry.

At most, I can simply suggest that they try to get some night classes in before their industry disappears.


One major fat cat.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_McCombs
 
2013-08-22 03:42:16 PM
Sounds really bootstrappy, what with all the protections for existing layers of middlemen and all.
 
2013-08-22 03:44:47 PM
Yep.  What I thought.  The same reason most industries have regulations.  Not to protect safety or the environment, though that is the standard excused used to get the laws passed.  It's to protect the established businesses from competition.
 
2013-08-22 03:49:20 PM

Apik0r0s: Sounds really bootstrappy, what with all the protections for existing layers of middlemen and all.


I agree.  We should just be able to buy our cars straight from the makers, at the prices they choose in order to maximize their own profit.  We should also be happy to put down a deposit, and wait several months while our car is custom-built, because picking one right off the lot is an obvious waste of economic resources on the automaker's part.
 
2013-08-22 03:50:18 PM
Now explain to me how the triple tier system helps out the liquor consumer.
 
2013-08-22 03:52:17 PM

chrisco123: Dinki

 How does one become a professional auto expert?  Sounds like a great imaginary job.


Wow.  I am 37% dumber for having read this comment.
 
2013-08-22 03:53:14 PM

Ker_Thwap: IRQ12: Ker_Thwap: Technically, they aren't banning the car, just the sales model.

A virtual ban is a ban.  "We're not banning your product we are just making it virtually impossible to compete."


Tesla may not be a success but Musk has done a great service to the country by showing people that these "too big to fail" companies have basically written laws that state:  "too small to succeed".

I'd be a lot more concerned about this if it weren't a luxury car that's covered here.  It's pretty much just millionaire problems right now.  If anyone wants to revise the law for the mass market, I'm fine with that.


It would seem like that on the surface but these problems are anti-competition laws and would affect a like upstart selling cheap cars.
 
2013-08-22 03:55:30 PM
It's certainly not stopping the sale of Teslas. I've seen lots of them driving around Austin. Besides, if I want one then I can just go to California or any other state that sells them, buy it, pay their sales taxes, then drive it back to Texas. They can't prevent me from registering it. And Texas loses out on a sales tax opportunity. I don't think Tesla will be losing out though. The article says that only 20,000 have been sold. That's still $1.5B in sales. And I can easily see Tesla prevailing in any legal battles that might stem from this.
 
2013-08-22 03:57:10 PM
The car makers and car dealers see Tesla and direct sales the same way the music industry saw the .mp3 format and online music.

They're trying to kill the new ideas the very same way by legally stomping them out.

History has shown that this will fail.

History has also shown that, for those willing to change their thinking, there are fortunes to be made on this new frontier.
 
2013-08-22 03:57:24 PM
It isn't like anyone can actually buy a Tesla anyway.  You just end up on a waiting list.  These cars are sold to people who really REALLY want one- not someone who needs a car yesterday.  Franchise laws won't stop these buyers.

That all said, they are a great bargain here--- petroleum based vehicles have a 100% tax here in Norway, and there are toll roads everywhere.  Teslas are tax free, toll free, free charging around town.  I know several people on waiting lists.  I would consider one myself.  Much better than a Leaf.
 
2013-08-22 03:57:52 PM
Chronyism on the state level.. just as bad as Chronyism on the federal level.
 
2013-08-22 03:58:12 PM
fark the franchises, these are bullshiat laws anyway. Car dealer salesmen are the #2 reason I never have and likely never will buy a new car. The #1 reason being I prefer to let some other schmuck take the huge depreciation hit and since I enjoy working on cars and have the cash to pay for parts or buy another car if something major breaks so warranties are useless to me.
 
2013-08-22 04:01:18 PM
Just one more reason for me to hate this stupid state I'm stuck in...
 
2013-08-22 04:03:20 PM

Infernalist: IRQ12: Cyberluddite: IRQ12: I bought a scratcher ticket for 2$ and got 20$ back. Both have about the same amount to do with the success of the car/company.

True enough. The facts that (1) there's so much demand that  they can't make their $100K cars fast enough to come even close to sastifying the current market demand (meaning that there is a waiting list of several months for buyer, and all of the people on it have plunked down $5000 in advance just to get a spot on the waiting list), and buyers can, if they choose to (and few choose to) resell their car on Craigslist for more than the price they paid for it new to people who don't want to wait their turn on the waiting list; (2) the car received the highest rating any car has ever received from Consumer Reports, and has received universal praise from reviewers and multiple "Car of the Year" awards from car publications; and (3) the car just received the NTSB's higest ever crash-test results for any car ever test, all do speak to the success of the car/company.

Plus, having driven them myself, I can attest that the car is farking incredibly.  The best car I've ever driven, and I've driven plenty of very, very nice cars over the years.

Yes, it's a great car and I am equally impressed with it.  In a rational world that should equal success but unfortunately it doesn't usually work out that way.  Irrational exuberance is never good for new companies/products.

The successful car will probably be some 1/2 ass knock off made by GM.  Americans have long ago abandoned quality for quantity.

How is it irrational?


The P&E for Tesla is 704, GM and Ford are ~10-11.

If you don't know P&E is share price/profit.  Yes, there will be a much higher ratio for an upstart with good numbers but that is ridiculous.
 
2013-08-22 04:05:47 PM

Deedeemarz: So, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and New Mexico need to build Tesla stores right on the border. Maybe if Tesla vehicles got popular enough, Texas would feel the loss of revenue and revisit its ridiculous franchise law. Right now it is really a nonissue since they won't sell too many in Texas anyway. Maybe in Austin they would.


I have seen at least 20 of these here in Houston. The problem with Tesla currently is the cost and the fact that it is a luxury vehicle. On top of that, there aren't many charging stations available currently. It has nothing to do with Texas being "anti-green".
 
2013-08-22 04:08:56 PM
www.hangthebankers.com
GTFO Texas

Nobody ever liked you in the union anyhow... please... secede already!
farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2013-08-22 04:10:15 PM
I just used the Tesla "True Cost of Ownership" which is supposed to show you how affordable it really is.

When you factor in everything, the model S will only cost me about the same P&I for my house.

What a deal!
 
2013-08-22 04:13:16 PM

waterrockets: HeadKase: There are quite a few of these in Austin already.  Love the Model S.

+1 I've seen as many as 5 unique Model S Teslas in the same day here.

I hate living so close to Texas. You know?


A nice little blueberry in the cherry pie
 
2013-08-22 04:13:37 PM

Doubletwist-: Just one more reason for me to hate this stupid state I'm stuck in...


Stuck here cuz of your...job...?
 
2013-08-22 04:17:16 PM
Interesting... It seems as though Texas and Elon have a bit of a love hate relationship right now.  On one hand Elon wants to build a new spaceport to handle commercial space launches on the southern tip of Texas, and Texas legislatures are practically falling all over themselves trying to pave the way for it to happen.  On the other hand Texas is blocking him from selling his cars in the state...
 
2013-08-22 04:23:44 PM

Maul555: Interesting... It seems as though Texas and Elon have a bit of a love hate relationship right now.  On one hand Elon wants to build a new spaceport to handle commercial space launches on the southern tip of Texas, and Texas legislatures are practically falling all over themselves trying to pave the way for it to happen.  On the other hand Texas is blocking him from selling his cars in the state...


Which is why instead of saying Derp Texas, I would rather people discuss the franchise system. I am curious of the what the arguments for the current system are that prohibits Tesla from owning their own dealerships. It very well maybe stupid and backwoodsy, but instead of people automatically jumping to conclusions and going along with something blindly, how about some discussion here. I already stated earlier that I live here and while this does not make sense to me, I am not a part of that industry. Any information is helpful.
 
2013-08-22 04:25:49 PM
For the record, there is nothing Libertarian about texas, they want big government controlled by the GOP, kinda like California. They want big government controlled by the Dems. Both fight to keep the status quo of keeping the people and companies happy, as long as they contribute to there re-election funds.
 
2013-08-22 04:26:54 PM

Voiceofreason01: Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.

you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.


Not true. Cars are not subject to regular sales tax in Texas and is much less at 6.25%.
 
2013-08-22 04:29:32 PM

dmaestaz: For the record, there is nothing Libertarian about texas, they want big government controlled by the GOP, kinda like California. They want big government controlled by the Dems. Both fight to keep the status quo of keeping the people and companies happy, as long as they contribute to there re-election funds.


Bold statements made about an entire state. I don't want that. I live in Texas. I have plenty of conservative friends and most don't want the government controlling most aspects of their life. Even my liberal friends here would rather the government butt out of their business. While the aspects of life that the government butts out of may be different between the two groups, I can very much assure you that "all of Texas" does not think alike. We are a very big state with an extremely diverse population. Then again, I know that contradicts everything you were ever told of Texas or read here on Fark. Have fun continuing believing everything the media tells you.
 
2013-08-22 04:44:50 PM

NostroZ: [www.hangthebankers.com image 386x386]
GTFO Texas

Nobody ever liked you in the union anyhow... please... secede already!
[farm8.staticflickr.com image 640x477]


Huh, in that first pic, I never really realized how much Texas looks like a UFIA. Kind of appropriate, it seems.
 
2013-08-22 04:48:49 PM

the money is in the banana stand: For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


At least in your industry they have the choice available to them. And I suspect that the ones that don't use a dealer and sell direct, either figure out how to service in their given areas, or they lose business to other manufacturers/dealerships who do provide good service.

I say let Tesla [and any other car manufacturer] sell direct. Either they will manage to provide good price and good service to their customers, or their customers will start going somewhere else.

I'm not a proponent of totally free market in all cases or anything. I just don't think there's a good enough reason to have this kind of regulation on the auto market.
 
2013-08-22 04:50:52 PM

the money is in the banana stand: dmaestaz: For the record, there is nothing Libertarian about texas, they want big government controlled by the GOP, kinda like California. They want big government controlled by the Dems. Both fight to keep the status quo of keeping the people and companies happy, as long as they contribute to there re-election funds.

Bold statements made about an entire state. I don't want that. I live in Texas. I have plenty of conservative friends and most don't want the government controlling most aspects of their life. Even my liberal friends here would rather the government butt out of their business. While the aspects of life that the government butts out of may be different between the two groups, I can very much assure you that "all of Texas" does not think alike. We are a very big state with an extremely diverse population. Then again, I know that contradicts everything you were ever told of Texas or read here on Fark. Have fun continuing believing everything the media tells you.


Look, I'm sorry, you sound like a decent enough sort. But Texas, on the whole, is just too much of a pain in the ass to put up with. It's nothing personal. Texas, when weighed using an objective risk/cost/benefit analysis, is found severely wanting. Your state, taken in the very rough dose it is, is really a total piece of retrogressive sh*t to everyone outside your borders. We don't like you, we don't want you, and the sooner you secede the better.
 
2013-08-22 04:52:49 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Apik0r0s: Sounds really bootstrappy, what with all the protections for existing layers of middlemen and all.

I agree.  We should just be able to buy our cars straight from the makers, at the prices they choose in order to maximize their own profit.  We should also be happy to put down a deposit, and wait several months while our car is custom-built, because picking one right off the lot is an obvious waste of economic resources on the automaker's part.


You should be happy to do business with any auto purveyor you like. If I want to put down a deposit and wait, I should be able to do so.

Of course, lord knows that a traditional car salesman has never been known to ask for a deposit to go along with an offer, right?

Kraftwerk Orange: Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?

A Dealership is typically required to provide service to their customers.  A Store isn't.  Hence, a Store can offer lower costs, because they don't have that whole extra service department and its overhead.

Dealers are also required by law to have the actual vehicle they advertise in their possession.  A Store can advertise a vehicle, and then tell you you have to order it yourself.


Go price a strut replacement at any manufacturer's dealership you like. Now go price the parts and watch the youtube video to DIY. Still think service is an overhead cost? My Acura dealership exists almost solely to get cars on the road for trumped up maintenance costs.

I just replaced my MDX's rear diff oil for $25 out of pocket (including Acura brand diff oil at $6.50/qt.), in just 15 minutes from unbagging the pump to washing my hands. Dealership price: $170. Acura customers are not so price sensitive, and most will see a $650 maintenance estimate, wince a little, then pull out the credit card and not worry about it for another 6 months and the next service.
 
2013-08-22 05:00:13 PM

chrisco123: There doing everyone a favor.  I drove a Tesla from NYC to Montreal and had to stop three times to charge the bastard.  Combine that with acceleration that feels like an elastic that never snaps and you have a crappy car.  I won't even mention the looks.  So what if its a "safe car".  How often do I crash up?


370 miles from NYC to Montreal. Tesla has never delivered a base Model S, so the range estimate is 208 miles. If you had to recharge 3 times, you had a broken one.

As for acceleration, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds is slow? What do you normally drive, an Aventador?
 
2013-08-22 05:05:53 PM

the money is in the banana stand: For those that feel that buying directly from the manufacturer is a good deal and do not understand having to pay a middle man:

I do not own a car dealership, but I own a dealership in another industry. Most people are thoroughly confused and feel like they are being taken advantage of having to pay "extra" money and pay a middle-man to get their product. Most consumers see the product and nothing else. The critical element that dealerships in general bring to the table is service. Depending the product, the service element can actually be more important than the product itself. In our industry, manufacturers historically, tried to own and operate their own dealerships. They failed, miserably. There are a variety of reasons why they failed, but most importantly is that they are great at understanding the bigger picture and products, but do not understand specific markets and service on a local level. There is no law to state manufacturers in our industry cannot own their own dealership, however almost none do so because the amount of service work and process of procurement is far more complicated than most people would ever imagine. There are plenty of companies that specialize in parts of our process and contract just those services out and do not sell any product. That is great and all, but consumers just don't see the value of service by-and-large. They don't want and are not willing to spend anything on service, but understand getting a superior product. You WILL have to pay for the service even if you don't see it. If the manufacturer owns the dealership and you require any service, you will pay for that in mark-up or margin due to the overhead.

It is a tricky situation and I am not sure why car dealerships are any different than our industry. I am not sure why manufacturers cannot own their own dealerships. They do not in our industry not because they cannot, but because that it just doesn't work.


You say all that, but why exactly does the price of service have to be so deeply obfuscated in the up front price of the product?

Basically:
s3.amazonaws.com
s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-08-22 05:08:43 PM

filter: It isn't like anyone can actually buy a Tesla anyway.  You just end up on a waiting list.  These cars are sold to people who really REALLY want one- not someone who needs a car yesterday.  Franchise laws won't stop these buyers.

That all said, they are a great bargain here--- petroleum based vehicles have a 100% tax here in Norway, and there are toll roads everywhere.  Teslas are tax free, toll free, free charging around town.  I know several people on waiting lists.  I would consider one myself.  Much better than a Leaf.


Of course it's better than a Leaf. It better be for more than twice the price.

My Leaf is still the best car I've ever owned, though. Would I rather have a Model S? Absolutely. I wouldn't trade my Leaf for any ICE car I've ever driven, though.
 
2013-08-22 05:10:08 PM
If they  do not use petroleum based fuels we do not want them here!   That's what Texas oil  politicians are played to think.
 
2013-08-22 05:13:52 PM

serial_crusher: It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.


AC is used most during the daytime. Electric car charging could be done mostly at night. The cars would actually *help* level off demand. People could conceivably even set up their cars so if demand and thus price is high, they could provide and sell power back into the grid.
 
2013-08-22 05:14:34 PM
I don't know anything about the Tesla, and would never have guessed that Texas had laws that would stop this.  I dug around a bit and found a slightly better article, though I'm still confused.  Next step is to read the Fark thread to see if anyone has a reasonable explanation.  Maybe there isn't one.  It wouldn't be the first time Rick Perry and buddies were paid off for making BS laws.

http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-ele ct ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/
 
2013-08-22 05:16:22 PM
waterrockets:
Go price a strut replacement at any manufacturer's dealership you like. Now go price the parts and watch the youtube video to DIY. Still think service is an overhead cost? My Acura dealership exists almost solely to get cars on the road for trumped up maintenance costs.

I just replaced my MDX's rear diff oil for $25 out of pocket (including Acura brand diff oil at $6.50/qt.), in just 15 minutes from unbagging the pump to washing my hands. Dealership price: $170. Acura customers are not so price sensitive, and most will see a $650 maintenance estimate, wince a little, then pull out t ...


Yes, a service dept. is an overhead cost.  I agree that some services are better DIY (not that a Tesla will ever need trans. oil, right?), but you still have to figure in the cost of diagnostic equipment, a service area (bay, garage, whatever), service technicians...

You can still replace your own blinker fluid, if you like.  But it's hard to imagine Tesla will let you replace a malfunctioning battery coolant pump, or service one of their custom-built motors.  They're going to want - actually insist - that you let them handle a certain amount of service.
 
2013-08-22 05:16:22 PM

the money is in the banana stand: dmaestaz: For the record, there is nothing Libertarian about texas, they want big government controlled by the GOP, kinda like California. They want big government controlled by the Dems. Both fight to keep the status quo of keeping the people and companies happy, as long as they contribute to there re-election funds.

Bold statements made about an entire state. I don't want that. I live in Texas. I have plenty of conservative friends and most don't want the government controlling most aspects of their life. Even my liberal friends here would rather the government butt out of their business. While the aspects of life that the government butts out of may be different between the two groups, I can very much assure you that "all of Texas" does not think alike. We are a very big state with an extremely diverse population. Then again, I know that contradicts everything you were ever told of Texas or read here on Fark. Have fun continuing believing everything the media tells you.


If you realized I was talking about Politicians...my bad for not specifying that. I live in Colorado and which I thought was pretty Libertarian leaning until I arrived here, sure they legalized pot, but the politicians didn't do that. The people voted for it. Hell we beat Texas in banning Tesla, because of the Politicians who get money. I could be the most Libertarian person in the world, and it doesn't mean jack crap as long as we have these protectionist politicians taking contributions from the Auto Dealers/Car Manufacturers/Big Oil to maintain the status quo.
 
2013-08-22 05:28:34 PM
It doesn't seem to be affecting sales any, i've seen a few banging around Houston.
 
2013-08-22 05:30:05 PM

JesseL: You say all that, but why exactly does the price of service have to be so deeply obfuscated in the up front price of the product?


That is how retail works for one, and secondly consumers would pitch a fit if they saw the cost of service itemized out correctly. For example, we are in the contract market not retail, but if we go into a bid and say our products will cost $200,000 and the installation costs $10,000 - we will get nickel and dimed on the 10k installation portion to the point where we cannot offer the level of service we should be providing. Alternatively, a tactic employed quite often is to lower your installation or service figure in the bid (or don't charge for it) but instead increase the product cost. A client thinks that paying $210,000 for products or $250,000 for products and not being charged installation is a great deal. We don't charge upfront for design and project management services. That doesn't mean you don't pay for it, it is part of the margin of the product.

To put it bluntly, people don't want to pay for good service, but they expect it. The government and state is the worst about this also. They have pre-negotiated contracts such as the GSA schedule so the price of the product is set in stone. If my product is $20, everyone else who can provide that product will be $20. The only thing that is not pre-negotiated is labor (service). More often than not, they will go with the lowest bid and then biatch that the company did a poor quality job and has a bunch of thugs with tats who can't pass a security check on their payroll. That's what not paying for service gets you. If we itemize service and put a true dollar amount to it, nobody understands it or wants to pay.

Please keep in mind I am not justifying how car dealerships work. I myself find them a little shady, just the general concept of service and value.
 
2013-08-22 05:39:28 PM

capt.hollister: Indeed. Tesla's stated plans are to launch the X model SUV in 2014, followed by the development of a $30k car. Selling the expensive cars is a necessary step on the way to financing a future cheaper model.


upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org

greiderclan.files.wordpress.com

?
 
2013-08-22 05:39:39 PM

JesseL: You say all that, but why exactly does the price of service have to be so deeply obfuscated in the up front price of the product?


Also, with retail you are paying for convenience. You are paying well over list dollar of the product because the of the overhead the company has as well as the inventory. That cost gets charged back to you. What gets me with car dealerships however is that you pay this mark-up despite custom ordering the vehicle. Our manufacturer sells some of their products online, they couldn't sell the full inventory because of how difficult it would be for someone to correctly order all the parts/pieces, install, and specify it. The fully-assembled units are sold online and our manufacturer sells it for about 10% higher than the list dollar amount of the product. We as a dealer can purchase that product for 70% LESS THAN list price. The reason why we cannot get away with buying it for 70% off list, then marking it back up is because of competition in our market. There are only maybe 7 major manufacturers in our industry, but any given territory might have 20+ dealers. This means that you are barely paying anywhere between 10-20% margin on the product, which is well under list price. If we showed our clients that, they don't think they are getting a good deal, they would want us to make less no matter what that number is. They don't understand the costs of service. I could just be like the manufacturer however and charge you an arm and a leg with little to any competition and maybe give you ok service.

The issue is never as easy as it appears on the surface.
 
2013-08-22 05:46:03 PM
There's Fisker Karma in my neighbourhood. Really, the prettiest sedan I've ever seen.
Yet to see a Tesla here in Texas North.
 
2013-08-22 05:49:28 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Yes, a service dept. is an overhead cost.  I agree that some services are better DIY (not that a Tesla will ever need trans. oil, right?), but you still have to figure in the cost of diagnostic equipment, a service area (bay, garage, whatever), service technicians....


A service center is always profitable with a successful dealership. Any dealer that's been around a while is making buckets of profit on service. There is of course an up-front cost to build service, but they make a profit on every part installed, and they charge $80-$100/hour for the work, based on standardized job times, not time worked.

So, they pay a good mechanic $20/hour? Then charge me $170 for 10 minutes worth of work to change rear diff oil? That job costs them $3.33 for labor, and probably $5 for parts.

I'm not against anyone profiting from work or products, but don't act like the service department is some sort of charity for the good of the customers, or that the mfgrs are twisting their arms to do that work.
 
2013-08-22 06:17:35 PM
I hate car dealerships. I hate the song and dance routine, and wondering once I've signed on the dotted line if I couldn't have gotten it cheaper. Car dealerships are a holdover from the old barter system and need to be done away with. Just put a price on it like any other store and let me pay for it, stop giving me runarounds and bait-and-switch tactics, stop giving me this:

i1102.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-22 06:43:11 PM
"Someone wants an exception to the franchise laws. If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

Explain to me farkwad how on Earth this is a BAD thing? I have yet to ever meet a dealer that wasn't out to just fark you over so he could get the commission.
 
2013-08-22 06:44:24 PM

Ninja Otter: serial_crusher: It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

AC is used most during the daytime. Electric car charging could be done mostly at night. The cars would actually *help* level off demand. People could conceivably even set up their cars so if demand and thus price is high, they could provide and sell power back into the grid.


Residential A/C use peaks in the evening, and is less efficient on a watts per capita basis than commercial/industrial cooling.

In fact, the grid has to work harder during the afternoons and evenings of the hottest summer days-known as periods of peak demand-than it does at any other time of the year.
 
2013-08-22 06:51:18 PM
Hmmm... so doesn't sound like Republican dominated Texas believes in a free market now does it? If they did, they wouldn't introduce this law. They are using the government to regulate and control the marketplace on what appears to be a completely arbitrary basis. I don't know, sounds like something the would accuse Obama of doing. Why does Texas hate capitalism?

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites! They don't care about the free market, they just care about getting paid by their farking lobbyist buddies. Fark em.
 
2013-08-22 06:52:23 PM
They make air conditioners now that freeze water into ice during low-demand periods, and dump heat into the ice to provide cooling at any time.

What I like about these machines is that they use water ice as the storage medium.  Totally harmless if anything bad happens.
 
2013-08-22 06:55:31 PM

Barfmaker: So is Tesla saying they'll have dealerships but the dealerships will be owned by Tesla? I guess what I'm axing is, what's the difference between a dealer and a store? And more to the point, if I bought one, where would I take it to get it fixed?


A store can be owned by whoever.  A dealer is essentially a franchise operation.  Back in the day car manufacturers used them to insulate themselves from the risks/hassles of selling to the end users.  Today, well, I dislike them.

As for getting it fixed, you take it back to the store/service station to have them work on it under warranty.

Lapdance: Lowest Model price Cash is 63K! Sorry, I can;t do that. When prices started going over $20K for cars I started getting Itchy. How much money do they think us Average Joe's make anymore these days? I remember when you could get a Base Road Runner for $3000! Just a few years ago I got my 2010 Sonata out the door for under $19K Cash. I'm putting just under 10K miles a year on it and fully expect it to last the 10yrs it has on it's warranty and then some. I got 13yrs out of my '96 Saturn and it was getting ready to Die. This Korean car is Way better than that POS was. In 2020 I'll be pushing 70 myself IF I make it that far. I figure I've bought my last car.


Interesting...  I'll give it a 4/10 though.

JuggleGeek: It wouldn't be the first time Rick Perry and buddies were paid off for making BS laws.


I just want to chime in here that most of these franchise laws are older than I am, so it's more Rick being bribed/lobbied to not mess with them and actually enforce them.

This text is now purple: ?


Let's see, I remember that Lamborghini started out as a tractor company that shifted to luxury/sports cars.  They're still a niche product.
I recognize the 2nd vehicle, but don't remember what it's company details are.  The volkswagon beetle was far from the company's first car.  Ferdinand Porsche, who designed the beetle was a well known designer for high end vehicles and race cars and ended up with serious government support.

Finally, the Ford Motor company spent it's first 5 years producing high end cars like everybody else.

Of the companies that produced 'affordable' cars as their first product, a general condition of there not being a affordable car on the market in the first place is notable.  Today, gasoline cars are the general product, and quite affordable compared to the Tesla vehicles.  It'd be better to look even earlier - these cars were produced in a time when there was already competitive markets for high end vehicles.  Ford started high and worked down, faster than Tesla is, but times have changed substantially.
 
2013-08-22 07:01:27 PM
They put in an electric car charger space at the Kohl's in my town now, too. I wonder how many other retail chargers there are now?
 
2013-08-22 07:08:21 PM

Baby Buzzard: They put in an electric car charger space at the Kohl's in my town now, too. I wonder how many other retail chargers there are now?


http://www.plugshare.com/

Make sure to deselect the residential charger option.
 
2013-08-22 07:10:00 PM

Firethorn: I recognize the 2nd vehicle, but don't remember what it's company details are.


BMW Isetta.
 
2013-08-22 07:11:47 PM

MrSteve007: Baby Buzzard: They put in an electric car charger space at the Kohl's in my town now, too. I wonder how many other retail chargers there are now?

http://www.plugshare.com/

Make sure to deselect the residential charger option.


Thanks! There's a ton more near me than I'd thought, since that was the first one I'd ever noticed before...
 
2013-08-22 07:15:40 PM
 
2013-08-22 07:18:21 PM
Thus the Free Market in Texas.
 
2013-08-22 07:19:17 PM

waterrockets: Kraftwerk Orange: Yes, a service dept. is an overhead cost.  I agree that some services are better DIY (not that a Tesla will ever need trans. oil, right?), but you still have to figure in the cost of diagnostic equipment, a service area (bay, garage, whatever), service technicians....

A service center is always profitable with a successful dealership. Any dealer that's been around a while is making buckets of profit on service. There is of course an up-front cost to build service, but they make a profit on every part installed, and they charge $80-$100/hour for the work, based on standardized job times, not time worked.

So, they pay a good mechanic $20/hour? Then charge me $170 for 10 minutes worth of work to change rear diff oil? That job costs them $3.33 for labor, and probably $5 for parts.

I'm not against anyone profiting from work or products, but don't act like the service department is some sort of charity for the good of the customers, or that the mfgrs are twisting their arms to do that work.


So then what would you expect is reasonable to pay for that work? It cost them $8.33 and parts and labor. Do you only expect then to pay $9 or $10? If it is such an easy procedure, why don't you do it? Why not take it to a mechanic for a lower price and compare numbers? You have to realize that while inflated I must say, that a lot of that service charge is for convenience. During that time, you may be offered a complimentary vehicle while your vehicle is repaired, breakfast or snacks, somewhere located conveniently nearby, you will get emails and/or phone calls when the work is done, your car may be washed after, etc. Many of the times it isn't "just" repairing a part. There is a lot there in terms of cost and overhead that you are paying for and if they itemized that out and let you pick and choose the services you received in order to get the cheapest price, that seems like a great idea - but what you end up with is Ryan Air.
 
2013-08-22 07:46:41 PM

studebaker hoch: What I like about these machines is that they use water ice as the storage medium.  Totally harmless if anything bad happens.


You obviously don't know about the ghost shark...
 
2013-08-22 07:53:46 PM

Firethorn: I recognize the 2nd vehicle, but don't remember what it's company details are.


Its a BMW Isetta.  Not sure what the point is because BMW started off as merger between industrial and aircraft engine makers.  They bought a car company later to move into that market.  Not like their first car was the Isetta.  That was a super economy car that came after WW2.
 
2013-08-22 08:03:50 PM

JuggleGeek: I don't know anything about the Tesla, and would never have guessed that Texas had laws that would stop this.  I dug around a bit and found a slightly better article, though I'm still confused.  Next step is to read the Fark thread to see if anyone has a reasonable explanation.  Maybe there isn't one.  It wouldn't be the first time Rick Perry and buddies were paid off for making BS laws.

http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-ele ct ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/


The auto franchise laws have been around forever.  It's not our recent crop of politicos who put them into place.  But they sure do step-and-fetchit to tweak the rules and get the prosecutors involved when their campaign contributors come calling.
 
2013-08-22 08:38:16 PM

spiderpaz: Yet they have a problem with California trying to regulate that any eggs sold in California come from chickens that have minimum dimensions to live in because of interstate commerce, blah blah.  God these people just can't get any more hypocritical or petty.


The problem the (R)s have with this law is that it's going to increase the price of a dozen eggs by about $.56, leading to decreased demand. I'd link to the study that states this, but Fark says the link is unfetchable.  Do a Google search on these keywords: california poultry law cage size loss of business.  The result you want is a PDF at a site whose URL starts with ageconsearch.umn.edu.
 
2013-08-22 08:42:36 PM

Naesen: mcreadyblue: Voiceofreason01: Dr Dreidel: Voiceofreason01: The franchise law is bullshiat legislation that does very little besides screw consumers

For those of us ignorant of such things (and who don't want to search teh googles ourselves), can you 'splain?

// EXplanation > MANsplanation, but whatever you got

car manufacturers are prohibited by law from selling cars directly to the public and you cannot sell cars online. Basically the law only exists to bring extra tax revenue into the State and support dealerships.

Not true.

Used cars can be sold online. Only news cars are forbidden.

Solution: have Elon purchase each car to be sold, then simply re-sell it back to Tesla at 100% purchasing price (thus creating paper trail), BOOM technically used. Next have Tesla post cars on used car search sites (or just make their own friggen' site).
???
Profit!


Brilliant - in theory.  I have a hunch, though, that the IRS would frown on these shenanigans.
 
2013-08-22 08:49:59 PM
Forget cars - has anyone here ever tried to buy a mattress? Seriously, car salesmen are practically models of education & transparency compared to a friggin' mattress store...
 
2013-08-22 09:03:57 PM

Baby Buzzard: MrSteve007: Baby Buzzard: They put in an electric car charger space at the Kohl's in my town now, too. I wonder how many other retail chargers there are now?

http://www.plugshare.com/

Make sure to deselect the residential charger option.

Thanks! There's a ton more near me than I'd thought, since that was the first one I'd ever noticed before...


If you want to see alot, select "Seattle, WA" as your search term. We have hundreds upon hundreds of charge points within only about 2 years. Even a couple dozen "fast" 480v chargers along the interstates now too.
 
2013-08-22 09:08:52 PM

the money is in the banana stand: So then what would you expect is reasonable to pay for that work?


Yes, but it's profitable for the dealership. The original claim described it as if the service department was a net loss.
 
2013-08-22 09:16:46 PM

acohn: Brilliant - in theory. I have a hunch, though, that the IRS would frown on these shenanigans.


Why would the IRS care?  Buying and selling at the same price means that there's no net profit, no gain or loss.  No capital gain or loss, and the IRS doesn't care whether the profit you make is from new or 'lightly used' cars.

This is like shenanigans where there's a higher import tariff on cargo vans, so they ship vans built overseas in with windows and seats, then remove them and ship them back to the factory for the next round, mount pre-painted(shipped with the vehicles as 'spare parts') plain metal panels where the windows used to be, and sell them as converted cargo vans, completely legally.

But because it only matters to state law, the IRS doesn't care.
 
2013-08-22 09:23:17 PM

This text is now purple: Ninja Otter: serial_crusher: It will be kind of interesting when everybody switches to electric cars though.  We already have rolling blackouts during hot summers when the grid can't keep up with everybody's AC.

AC is used most during the daytime. Electric car charging could be done mostly at night. The cars would actually *help* level off demand. People could conceivably even set up their cars so if demand and thus price is high, they could provide and sell power back into the grid.

Residential A/C use peaks in the evening, and is less efficient on a watts per capita basis than commercial/industrial cooling.

In fact, the grid has to work harder during the afternoons and evenings of the hottest summer days-known as periods of peak demand-than it does at any other time of the year.


Evening is only a small part of night. Have a button on your charger which, when pressed, delays the start of charging until after midnight.

But from what I've read, power companies have a good plan in place for handling this sort of thing.
1) Develop accurate models of power usage and use to predict demand peaks and dips. Include time of day, weather forecasts (including wind and sunshine, for how much wind and solar power will come in) special events, etc. and it can map demand quite accurately.
2) Determine the cheapest ways to meet the overall level of demand.
3) Use pumped storage and the like to store power during the dips, release it during the peaks. Solar tends to produce most when needed most, so its variability doesn't work against the system.
4) electric vehicles that charge overnight actually help level off demand.

http://www.gizmag.com/uk-national-grid-wind-data/28046/ 
http://www.opb.org/news/blog/ecotrope/report-to-use-more-wind-energy -a dd-electric-cars/ 
http://www.midwestenergynews.com/2011/09/14/how-electric-cars-can-he lp -balance-wind-power/
 
2013-08-22 09:28:28 PM

simplicimus: Uranus Is Huge!: Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.

Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.

East Texas, it's the Stars and Bars.


You mean West Louisiana? I say let them have everything from Beaumont East.
/Houstonian
 
2013-08-22 09:56:50 PM

UHC2005: simplicimus: Uranus Is Huge!: Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.

Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.

East Texas, it's the Stars and Bars.

You mean West Louisiana? I say let them have everything from Beaumont East.
/Houstonian


I'm with you. I'm as white as can be be, and even I won't stop in Vidor, much less Orange County. Them folks are scary. When I make my treks to Baton Rouge from Houston, Jennings, La. is my mark of civilization starts here.
 
2013-08-22 10:07:10 PM
At what point do we give Texas back to Mexico and say "no thanks"?
 
2013-08-22 10:38:50 PM

waterrockets: Kraftwerk Orange: Yes, a service dept. is an overhead cost.  I agree that some services are better DIY (not that a Tesla will ever need trans. oil, right?), but you still have to figure in the cost of diagnostic equipment, a service area (bay, garage, whatever), service technicians....

A service center is always profitable with a successful dealership. Any dealer that's been around a while is making buckets of profit on service. There is of course an up-front cost to build service, but they make a profit on every part installed, and they charge $80-$100/hour for the work, based on standardized job times, not time worked.

So, they pay a good mechanic $20/hour? Then charge me $170 for 10 minutes worth of work to change rear diff oil? That job costs them $3.33 for labor, and probably $5 for parts.

I'm not against anyone profiting from work or products, but don't act like the service department is some sort of charity for the good of the customers, or that the mfgrs are twisting their arms to do that work.


I'm not saying it's a charity - I'm saying it's a necessary part of the Dealership model.  Dealers *have* to have a Service Dept., it's part of the conditions of being granted a Dealership license.

Tesla, OTOH, doesn't want to have to have a service department at every location, which is why they're challenging the current Dealership laws.  Tesla wants to cut costs by having a centralized service location that is separate geographically from where they sell the cars, rather than at *every* location that sells their cars.

I could guarantee you that many large franchise groups (like Hendrick here in the Carolinas) would love to be able to centralize their service departments.  As it stands, the same owner has nearly half a dozen different service departs within a mile of each other (one for BMW, one for Volvo, one for GM, one for Dodge, one for Hyundai).    Maybe he could get his service costs down, if he wasn't required to have the overhead cost of five different garages within spitting distance of each other, each with identical equipment and tools, and staffed by guys who don't have a particularly busy day scheduled.

And yes, the manufacturers *do* twist their arms to make sure the Dealers are continually upgrading their tools/equipment, and providing current training for the staff.  Dealers can lose out on high-demand cars if the manufacturer thinks the service isn't up to snuff - so the service dept. is the single part of the Dealership that is continually requiring more investment year after year.  The sales floor?  Whatever, a new coat of paint and some new posters if they're lucky.
 
2013-08-22 10:52:01 PM

Ninja Otter: the money is in the banana stand: So then what would you expect is reasonable to pay for that work?

Yes, but it's profitable for the dealership. The original claim described it as if the service department was a net loss.


I don't think a dealer's service department was ever a net loss.  At one time they had a captive audience.  They insisted that you had to get your oil changed through an authorized dealer or your warranty became invalid.  So instead of $40 at a local shop, it was $150 at the dealer.   Thank goodness that insanity was stopped years ago.  Also, the dealers get compensated by the factory for warranty repairs, including recalls.
 
2013-08-22 11:05:45 PM

UHC2005: You mean West Louisiana? I say let them have everything from Beaumont East.
/Houstonian


Hells no.  Lake Charles and Shreverport/Bossier City think they are more part of Texas anyway.  How about you keep them instead.
 
2013-08-22 11:26:30 PM

This text is now purple: capt.hollister: Indeed. Tesla's stated plans are to launch the X model SUV in 2014, followed by the development of a $30k car. Selling the expensive cars is a necessary step on the way to financing a future cheaper model.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 582x480]

[greiderclan.files.wordpress.com image 389x269]

?


Lamborghini farm implements are definitely not inexpensive and while Ferruccio Lamborghini was alive the car business was only a personal hobby for getting back at Enzo Ferrari for being such a boor.

The Volkswagen benefited from massive public financing before and during WWII, particularly through massive military orders for Kubelwagens. In fact, the model illustrated is a WWII military type 82E, basically a Kubelwagen with the sedan body.

The inexpensive model T was preceded by the expensive models A through F.  Sort of illustrates my point.

The BMW Isetta is trickier because it did follow on the footsteps of the expensive and slow-selling 501 and 502 models, but really postwar conditions in West Germany were such that it was difficult to survive by making expensive luxury cars. There weren't many people with the money to buy one and those who did still had to face gas rationing.  BMW really only managed to survive those years thanks to its motorcycles. At any rate, BMW did not have to invest in the development of the Isetta rolling chassis because it bought the license from Renzo Rivolta and for an engine it used one of its existing motorcycle engines. BMW also already had production facilities and a distribution and service network. In other words, it did not need a large initial investment to enter into production, so the per-car profit was higher than if it had set itself in business  ab initio with the Isetta.

My point, is that you cannot launch the production of an inexpensive car with its low per-vehicle profit without a massive investment in a production facility with the capacity to turn out enough cars for the whole venture to be profitable. And let's not forget the gigantic investments in publicity and a distribution network necessary to ensure that your new, unknown car by an unknown manufacturer will sell in the necessary numbers to a public that is often wary of new, unproven technology... Elon Musk chose to invest in a more modest production capacity of more-expensive cars that he could sell to affluent early adopters and to use the profits to finance future production facilities for a more mainstream model.
 
2013-08-23 12:01:58 AM

Kraftwerk Orange: waterrockets: Kraftwerk Orange: Yes, a service dept. is an overhead cost.  I agree that some services are better DIY (not that a Tesla will ever need trans. oil, right?), but you still have to figure in the cost of diagnostic equipment, a service area (bay, garage, whatever), service technicians....

A service center is always profitable with a successful dealership. Any dealer that's been around a while is making buckets of profit on service. There is of course an up-front cost to build service, but they make a profit on every part installed, and they charge $80-$100/hour for the work, based on standardized job times, not time worked.

So, they pay a good mechanic $20/hour? Then charge me $170 for 10 minutes worth of work to change rear diff oil? That job costs them $3.33 for labor, and probably $5 for parts.

I'm not against anyone profiting from work or products, but don't act like the service department is some sort of charity for the good of the customers, or that the mfgrs are twisting their arms to do that work.

I'm not saying it's a charity - I'm saying it's a necessary part of the Dealership model.  Dealers *have* to have a Service Dept., it's part of the conditions of being granted a Dealership license.

Tesla, OTOH, doesn't want to have to have a service department at every location, which is why they're challenging the current Dealership laws.  Tesla wants to cut costs by having a centralized service location that is separate geographically from where they sell the cars, rather than at *every* location that sells their cars.

I could guarantee you that many large franchise groups (like Hendrick here in the Carolinas) would love to be able to centralize their service departments.  As it stands, the same owner has nearly half a dozen different service departs within a mile of each other (one for BMW, one for Volvo, one for GM, one for Dodge, one for Hyundai).    Maybe he could get his service costs down, if he wasn't required to have the overhead cost of ...


The service department is a large profit center for a any car dealership. It often generates more profit than the sales department.

Large franchise groups already centralize certain service activities like body shops. A group may have several dealerships, but only one body shop.  Centralized service, however, may not be such a good PR model. I'm pretty sure that their Volvo or (especially) their BMW clients would be very happy with it...

Personally, because of personal experience, I don't like it either.  An established, one-brand dealer is more likely to know the cars they sell. This can be important if you drive anything that isn't mainstream.

When someone broke the passenger side mirror on my car (at the time, an M-B R350), I chose to go to the new dealership that was closest to me. This is a Mercedes-only dealer, but it belongs to a group that owns the Mazda, Honda, and GM dealers all on the same block and "promoted" some of its personnel from those to its new flagship premise. It took me three visits to get the mirror fixed. First they only ordered the outer shell, but realized that both the outer and inner shell were busted. After they received the inner shell and called me back, they realized that the actuating motor was also broken. On another occasion, I went there for some warrantee work. They called me back to tell me that the parts were not covered by M-B's extended warrantee and the fix would be $1300. I told them to put my car back together and return it to me. of course, they charged me for the privilege... Anyhow, I contacted the dealership from where I got the car, a long-established one franchise business.    Not only was the part covered by the warrantee, as I suspected, but if I brought it in that evening they would leave the keys to a courtesy car at the front desk for me. That's the difference between a dealer that knows the cars it sells and one that doesn't.
 
2013-08-23 12:20:01 AM

Saberus Terras: I saw a Tesla just last week in Texas, with a Texas temp paper plate.  So at least one person in Texas managed to get one.  Texas needs to pull their head out of their ass on this, unless they plan on passing some outrageous  registration fees to make up for the fact that Tesla owners will not be paying road taxes through fuel purchases.


I could see them doing that....

/ as an outsider, it looks like most of the politicians in that State are epic-level douchebags...
 
2013-08-23 12:22:44 AM

Firethorn: acohn: Brilliant - in theory. I have a hunch, though, that the IRS would frown on these shenanigans.

Why would the IRS care?  Buying and selling at the same price means that there's no net profit, no gain or loss.  No capital gain or loss, and the IRS doesn't care whether the profit you make is from new or 'lightly used' cars.

This is like shenanigans where there's a higher import tariff on cargo vans, so they ship vans built overseas in with windows and seats, then remove them and ship them back to the factory for the next round, mount pre-painted(shipped with the vehicles as 'spare parts') plain metal panels where the windows used to be, and sell them as converted cargo vans, completely legally.

But because it only matters to state law, the IRS doesn't care.


IANAL, but in the example you cite, the automaker/auto dealer is actually doing something to the vehicle to alter it.  In the hypothetical you posit, no alteration takes place.  Now, if Musk or his delegate drove each of the cars sold he bought 10 miles, then it might technically be a used car, just as it would be if a third party bought it from a Tesla dealership and drove it off the lot.  But since the automobile business has been around a long time, and lobbyists for auto dealerships have been around almost as long, I have a feeling that this kind of legal sleight-of-hand is probably illegal in some provision of every state's laws.
 
2013-08-23 01:13:16 AM

the money is in the banana stand:
So then what would you expect is reasonable to pay for that work? It cost them $8.33 and parts and labor. Do you only expect then to pay $9 or $10? If it is such an easy procedure, why don't you do it? Why not take it to a mechanic for a lower price and compare numbers? You have to realize that while inflated I must say, that a lot of that service charge is for convenience. During that time, you may be offered a complimentary vehicle while your vehicle is repaired, breakfast or snacks, somewhere located conveniently nearby, you will get emails and/or phone calls when the work is done, your car may be washed after, etc. Many of the times it isn't "just" repairing a part. There is a lot there in terms of cost and overhead that you are paying for and if they itemized that out and let you pick and choose the services you received in order to get the cheapest price, that seems like a great idea - but what you end up with is Ryan Air.

This is all irrelevant to my point that dealer service is a profitable business, in general. That said, I did do the work myself...

Kraftwerk Orange: I'm not saying it's a charity - I'm saying it's a necessary part of the Dealership model.  Dealers *have* to have a Service Dept., it's part of the conditions of being granted a Dealership license.

Tesla, OTOH, doesn't want to have to have a service department at every location, which is why they're challenging the current Dealership laws.  Tesla wants to cut costs by having a centralized service location that is separate geographically from where they sell the cars, rather than at *every* location that sells their cars.

I could guarantee you that many large franchise groups (like Hendrick here in the Carolinas) would love to be able to centralize their service departments.  As it stands, the same owner has nearly half a dozen different service departs within a mile of each other (one for BMW, one for Volvo, one for GM, one for Dodge, one for Hyundai).    Maybe he could get his service costs down, if he wasn't required to have the overhead cost of ...


None of this is counter to my assertion that dealer service is profitable. Mandated or not, it makes money. Could it be more profitable if it was centralized? Maybe. Not needed for profitability though.
 
2013-08-23 01:33:00 AM
Anyone who lives in Texas and votes for an incumbent is an idiot.
 
2013-08-23 02:02:41 AM

MerelyFoolish: Anyone who lives in Texas and votes for an incumbent is an idiot.


FTFY
 
2013-08-23 03:48:59 AM

gilgigamesh: Therion: "If we made an exception for everybody that showed up in the legislature, before long the integrity of the entire franchise system is in peril."

The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is making jack-off motions behind your back.

Once again, an example of small government conservatism staying true to their ideals!


And if the federal court overrules them, they'll call that action "big government," because it's a "state's rights issue."
 
2013-08-23 06:06:34 AM

JuggleGeek: I don't know anything about the Tesla, and would never have guessed that Texas had laws that would stop this.  I dug around a bit and found a slightly better article, though I'm still confused.  Next step is to read the Fark thread to see if anyone has a reasonable explanation.  Maybe there isn't one.  It wouldn't be the first time Rick Perry and buddies were paid off for making BS laws.

http://www.statesman.com/news/business/tesla-lobbies-to-sell-its-ele ct ric-cars-directly-t/nXHrY/


I suspect it's not just the Tesla...the auto dealer lobby would stop ANY manufacturer from bypassing them.
 
2013-08-23 07:32:54 AM
who gives a shiat?
it's a tesla
blah blah blah texas
 
2013-08-23 09:06:18 AM

dragonfire77: Build capacitance into the grid. Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.


No, you don't want to add "capacitance." That would be rather bad for an AC system. You just need storage, which can be implemented at any level at any scale you care to do.


PerilousApricot: Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.


Flywheels are actually very good for this: They are relatively cheap and fast to react.

gigaom2.files.wordpress.com

Each one of those blue things is a cap to a flywheel containment bunker and contains one of these:

news.heartland.org

Each flywheel stores 25kWh of energy and can deliver that energy at a rate of 100kW. It's actually a pretty good system for stability regulation - just not for bulk storage.
=Smidge=
 
2013-08-23 09:29:41 AM

2farknfunny: If only you had internet access, you could try these things called "search engines"

[snip]

Ooh, you sure told me.

As did the guy before you, and the guy before him, and...

Look.  The point was, I was responding to a guy who was obliquely making the claim that electric cars won't do anything to reduce oil consumption because they run on electricity made by burning oil. Efficiencies of scale and other reasons which show that the claim would be false even if most electricity was generated by burning oil aside, the point it that oil is a negligible fraction of electricity production in the US.

I get that I overstated my case.  Thanks to all of you who pointed that out.  But let's be fair: citing the existence of a handful of dual-fuel facilities isn't exactly making the case that oil is a primary, or even major source of electrical production, is it?

Which was the point of my complaint: the original claim was bogus.

We now return you to the standard programming of snark and trolling.
 
2013-08-23 09:42:55 AM

OgreMagi: MerelyFoolish: Anyone who lives in Texas and votes for an incumbent is an idiot.

FTFY


Agreed.  Being a politician should be a civic duty, not a career.  But this is not the thread to discuss that.

This is the thread to bash my state for being run by a bunch of dumb hicks with beerguts and fat wallets from the dealership kickbacks trying to suppress a more progressive sales model.

It's a shame we also have one of the best-developed tech sectors in North America.

I always thought that the Isetta was a gag car.  I mean the stock 2-stroke engine could only get up to 47 MPH, and had a 0-30 in 30.  Maybe it had a niche in denser Old World cities, but in the American sprawl, it's a joke, and possibly a deathtrap.  It was played for laughs as the Urkelmobile on Family Matters, for crying out loud.
 
2013-08-23 09:49:48 AM

Firethorn: But because it only matters to state law, the IRS doesn't care.


You could hardly be more wrong.

You're confining your analysis to "income".  But "income" is not the only taxable event out there.  The IRS also is concerned about "transfer": Hence, the Gift Tax, the Estate Tax, Tariffs, etc.

Trust me, the IRS would be most interested in the proposed money-laundering scheme.
 
2013-08-23 10:14:47 AM

Smidge204: dragonfire77: Build capacitance into the grid. Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.

No, you don't want to add "capacitance." That would be rather bad for an AC system. You just need storage, which can be implemented at any level at any scale you care to do.


PerilousApricot: Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Flywheels are actually very good for this: They are relatively cheap and fast to react.

[gigaom2.files.wordpress.com image 401x296]

Each one of those blue things is a cap to a flywheel containment bunker and contains one of these:

[news.heartland.org image 350x220]

Each flywheel stores 25kWh of energy and can deliver that energy at a rate of 100kW. It's actually a pretty good system for stability regulation - just not for bulk storage.
=Smidge=


The "not for bulk storage" part is what I was trying to get at, but I must've done a bad job at explaining it.

YES, I know that there are ways to smooth out temporary mismatches in supply/demand. We've been doing it for a long time. The original (way up top) post suggested that "adding capacitors" would solve the problem of rolling blackouts, which is a completely different ballgame just because of the enormous scales involved.
 
2013-08-23 10:21:28 AM

Saberus Terras: OgreMagi: MerelyFoolish: Anyone who lives in Texas and votes for an incumbent is an idiot.

FTFY

Agreed.  Being a politician should be a civic duty, not a career.  But this is not the thread to discuss that.

This is the thread to bash my state for being run by a bunch of dumb hicks with beerguts and fat wallets from the dealership kickbacks trying to suppress a more progressive sales model.

It's a shame we also have one of the best-developed tech sectors in North America.

I always thought that the Isetta was a gag car.  I mean the stock 2-stroke engine could only get up to 47 MPH, and had a 0-30 in 30.  Maybe it had a niche in denser Old World cities, but in the American sprawl, it's a joke, and possibly a deathtrap.  It was played for laughs as the Urkelmobile on Family Matters, for crying out loud.


BMW's versions of the Isetta were powered by four-stroke BMW motorcycle engines. Their top speed ranged from 55mph for the smallest 250cc model up to 65mph for the largest 600cc twin-cylinder model. Not too bad if you consider that at the time a VW topped out at about 60mph.

As for being a death trap, you're right; it probably was. In fairness, though, just about every car of the time, big or small, was a death trap.
 
2013-08-23 11:16:33 AM

PerilousApricot: Smidge204: dragonfire77: Build capacitance into the grid. Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.

No, you don't want to add "capacitance." That would be rather bad for an AC system. You just need storage, which can be implemented at any level at any scale you care to do.


PerilousApricot: Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Flywheels are actually very good for this: They are relatively cheap and fast to react.

[gigaom2.files.wordpress.com image 401x296]

Each one of those blue things is a cap to a flywheel containment bunker and contains one of these:

[news.heartland.org image 350x220]

Each flywheel stores 25kWh of energy and can deliver that energy at a rate of 100kW. It's actually a pretty good system for stability regulation - just not for bulk storage.
=Smidge=

The "not for bulk storage" part is what I was trying to get at, but I must've done a bad job at explaining it.

YES, I know that there are ways to smooth out temporary mismatches in supply/demand. We've been doing it for a long time. The original (way up top) post suggested that "adding capacitors" would solve the problem of rolling blackouts, which is a completely different ballgame just because of the enormous scales involved.



Capacitors are used in the grid.  At the tail end of long rural circuits, to keep the phase angles from getting out of synch when a motor (inductive load) kicks in.
 
2013-08-23 11:32:15 AM

waterrockets: the money is in the banana stand:
So then what would you expect is reasonable to pay for that work? It cost them $8.33 and parts and labor. Do you only expect then to pay $9 or $10? If it is such an easy procedure, why don't you do it? Why not take it to a mechanic for a lower price and compare numbers? You have to realize that while inflated I must say, that a lot of that service charge is for convenience. During that time, you may be offered a complimentary vehicle while your vehicle is repaired, breakfast or snacks, somewhere located conveniently nearby, you will get emails and/or phone calls when the work is done, your car may be washed after, etc. Many of the times it isn't "just" repairing a part. There is a lot there in terms of cost and overhead that you are paying for and if they itemized that out and let you pick and choose the services you received in order to get the cheapest price, that seems like a great idea - but what you end up with is Ryan Air.

This is all irrelevant to my point that dealer service is a profitable business, in general. That said, I did do the work myself...

Kraftwerk Orange: I'm not saying it's a charity - I'm saying it's a necessary part of the Dealership model.  Dealers *have* to have a Service Dept., it's part of the conditions of being granted a Dealership license.

Tesla, OTOH, doesn't want to have to have a service department at every location, which is why they're challenging the current Dealership laws.  Tesla wants to cut costs by having a centralized service location that is separate geographically from where they sell the cars, rather than at *every* location that sells their cars.

I could guarantee you that many large franchise groups (like Hendrick here in the Carolinas) would love to be able to centralize their service departments.  As it stands, the same owner has nearly half a dozen different service departs within a mile of each other (one for BMW, one for Volvo, one for GM, one for Dodge, one for Hyundai).    M ...


That's because I never disagreed that the service department was profitable.  My point was that a Service Department has a large overhead cost, to keep it running.  If a Dealer doesn't regularly spend large sums of money to continually upgrade and improve their service department, they will loose out on a very profitable part of their business.  Kind of like the fellow above who took his Mercedes to a Mercedes Dealer who had a bad service department that had no idea how to fix a mirror.

I still assert that Tesla would rather centralize their service departments, to minimize the capital cost of having a service department at each location that currently sells their vehicles - which is what the law requires a new car Dealer to have in order to be granted a Dealership license.  That's why Tesla has "Stores", not "Dealerships"; they can't legally be called Dealerships because they don't have a service department.
 
2013-08-23 11:54:45 AM

Deucednuisance: You're confining your analysis to "income". But "income" is not the only taxable event out there. The IRS also is concerned about "transfer": Hence, the Gift Tax, the Estate Tax, Tariffs, etc.

Trust me, the IRS would be most interested in the proposed money-laundering scheme.


1.  Gift, estate tax is for unilateral transfers which are effectively income.  The theoretical transfers Musk makes aren't unilateral.  The Fed.gov doesn't have a sales tax, ergo Musk paying retail for a Tesla that he then sells back for retail* is very much not unilateral, thus no gift tax(the transfers aren't gifts) and no estate taxes because nobody died, no Tariffs because there's no intercountry commerce going on, etc...  Until you can identify a tax that the IRS manages that would be involved in said transactions, I'm going to continue my statement:  The IRS won't care.
2.  It's not actually a money-laundering scheme either.  It's a definition laundering scheme.  As there are no IRS taxable transactions in the process, I'll repeat:  the IRS doesn't care.  It's not IRS regulations that are being violated or evaded.

*Or near enough to make no difference.

In short, you couldn't be more wrong, because 100% of your posting is incorrect.
 
2013-08-23 12:23:22 PM

Firethorn: In short, you couldn't be more wrong, because 100% of your posting is incorrect.


Well, Counselor, that's like, your opinion, man.

Personally, I wouldn't run with that ball if you handed it to me.  And I doubt very much that Musk will, either. But three yards and a cloud of dust, if that's your thing.
 
2013-08-23 12:38:09 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Dinki: Uranus Is Huge!: Maud Dib: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm sure that if the Tesla car somehow becomes really popular in Texas, the situation will right itself automatically.

Not until it comes with 4WD, a lift kit, muddin' tires, and a brush guard.

You forgot Truck Nutz.

And bumpers big enough for "Don't mess with texas" and confederate flag  stickers.

Nah. Except for some pockets of East Texas, there's only one flag that Texans hold dear.

And it ain't the American Flag.


The browneye flag is indeed loved by all the initiated.
 
2013-08-23 02:04:39 PM
Deucednuisance: Personally, I wouldn't run with that ball if you handed it to me.  And I doubt very much that Musk will, either. But three yards and a cloud of dust, if that's your thing.

Ah, I think I see the problem now.  You think I was actually serious about the proposal, while I was only pointing out that the IRS, a specific government agency, wouldn't care.

Reread my posts in that context and they should make much more sense.  I never said that there wouldn't be OTHER government agencies that would have an interest in said plan.  Especially any state enforcement agencies, but that's where lawyers would get involved.
 
2013-08-23 03:26:43 PM

Voiceofreason01: Dinki: ampoliros: They know a plan to cut into their tax revenue when they see it.

I don't quite get the tax revenue angle- is there additional taxes on franchisees, because i would think a sale is a sale is a sale.

you get to tax the dealer when they buy the car and again when they sell it.


From what I understand, the dealers don't actually buy the cars.  they partner with a bank which actually forks the money over to the manufacturer in exchange for prefferential consideration when financing the cars.  The dealer effectively gets a 90 day or so grace period before they start making payments to the bank on the car.  That is why they want to get older cars off the lot first.  Effectively if they turn over fast enough, they never pay for the inventory.

On the back side, the bank offers them a kick back on the interest rate they get to charge the customer.  Lets say you qualify for a 2.5% rate, the dealer congratulates you for qualifying for a 4% rate and splits the difference with the bank (or maybe gets to keep the difference.
 
2013-08-23 10:11:01 PM

FrancoFile: PerilousApricot: Smidge204: dragonfire77: Build capacitance into the grid. Seems to be the best technical solution for the blackout issue.

No, you don't want to add "capacitance." That would be rather bad for an AC system. You just need storage, which can be implemented at any level at any scale you care to do.


PerilousApricot: Flywheels? No, same problem. You can only make them so big and so fast before the centripetal force pulls them apart.

Flywheels are actually very good for this: They are relatively cheap and fast to react.

[gigaom2.files.wordpress.com image 401x296]

Each one of those blue things is a cap to a flywheel containment bunker and contains one of these:

[news.heartland.org image 350x220]

Each flywheel stores 25kWh of energy and can deliver that energy at a rate of 100kW. It's actually a pretty good system for stability regulation - just not for bulk storage.
=Smidge=

The "not for bulk storage" part is what I was trying to get at, but I must've done a bad job at explaining it.

YES, I know that there are ways to smooth out temporary mismatches in supply/demand. We've been doing it for a long time. The original (way up top) post suggested that "adding capacitors" would solve the problem of rolling blackouts, which is a completely different ballgame just because of the enormous scales involved.


Capacitors are used in the grid.  At the tail end of long rural circuits, to keep the phase angles from getting out of synch when a motor (inductive load) kicks in.


Not only that, they are widely used in large bulk power stations now for voltage control. Inductive loads tend to cause the voltage to sag; countering these with capacitive reactance boosts the voltage. They used to use rolling masses called "condensers" to provide reactive power support, but they were high maintenance.  The must-have power hardware these days includes "static VAr compensators," electronic devices that can switch capacitors or inductors in and out at will, allowing for almost real-time voltage control in a region.
 
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