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(News Daily)   If breaking a mirror brings seven years of bad luck, how many do you get for gunning down an anti-superstition activist?   (newsdaily.com) divider line 64
    More: Sad, Indian scientists, Indians, Pune, morning walk, Maharashtra, human sacrifice, charlatans, activists  
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4409 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Aug 2013 at 12:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-22 03:26:28 PM  

meat0918: vpb: The Tea Baggers just had a new idea.

Consider the following: They had better stay the fark away from Bill Nye.


Or James Randi
 
2013-08-22 03:29:44 PM  

impaler: "Believe such and such, or face eternity in hell!" - acceptable proselytizing.
"live in harmony with each other and use your brain" - shoving beliefs down people's throats.


no, actually, both are shoving your beliefs down people's throats.  it's active proselytizing that's the problem on all sides, and has been for thousands of years. If people were allowed to seek out and find the truth, and were given the resources to question and encouraged to do so without recourse, I think everyone would be a lot better off.

Frankly, I don't give a shiat if someone believes in God, Satan, or the FSM, or none of the above. I just don't want to hear about it, and be drilled into if I happen to state that I have a belief because I'm wrong. Trust me, when there exists evidence that contradicts my beliefs, I'll gladly re-evaluate my beliefs. But every day science finds out shiat that we previously thought was impossible, so, until there's evidence for or against, I'll choose to believe whatever seems sensible to me based on my own experiences plus scientific data.

And maybe we could all use a little less of the "crusader" Attitude and the need to *prove* people's beliefs wrong/silly/whatever.
 
2013-08-22 03:42:29 PM  

Kit Fister: If people were allowed to seek out and find the truth, and were given the resources to question and encouraged to do so without recourse,


The people this guy was working with did not have the resources to find out "the truth" on their own. Nobody before him had encouraged them to question a single damned thing.

He wasn't working with middle class white folks in suburban San Francisco, he was working with people who barely have enough money to eat and didn't go to high-school, and very likely can barely read if they can at all.
 
2013-08-22 03:42:55 PM  

Kit Fister: impaler: "Believe such and such, or face eternity in hell!" - acceptable proselytizing.
"live in harmony with each other and use your brain" - shoving beliefs down people's throats.

no, actually, both are shoving your beliefs down people's throats.  it's active proselytizing that's the problem on all sides, and has been for thousands of years. If people were allowed to seek out and find the truth, and were given the resources to question and encouraged to do so without recourse, I think everyone would be a lot better off.

Frankly, I don't give a shiat if someone believes in God, Satan, or the FSM, or none of the above. I just don't want to hear about it, and be drilled into if I happen to state that I have a belief because I'm wrong. Trust me, when there exists evidence that contradicts my beliefs, I'll gladly re-evaluate my beliefs. But every day science finds out shiat that we previously thought was impossible, so, until there's evidence for or against, I'll choose to believe whatever seems sensible to me based on my own experiences plus scientific data.

And maybe we could all use a little less of the "crusader" Attitude and the need to *prove* people's beliefs wrong/silly/whatever.


So parents shouldn't take their children to church?
 
2013-08-22 03:49:36 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: He wasn't working with middle class white folks in suburban San Francisco, he was working with people who barely have enough money to eat and didn't go to high-school, and very likely can barely read if they can at all.


But he really shouldn't have tried educating them. That would be "shoving belief down their throats," and it makes him no better than the charlatans who are actively preying on those people.

What I'm saying is that even though he was helping them for no personal gain, this is just like hurting them for personal gain.

Now you may be wondering how do we stop charlatans from taking advantage of people? We can't. Because when we do, we become just like them. Both sides are bad.
 
2013-08-22 03:50:27 PM  

Egoy3k: So parents shouldn't take their children to church?


Or school. Don't want "beliefs" (i.e. knowledge) shoved down their throats.
 
2013-08-22 03:52:42 PM  
In The Plague (La Peste), Albert Camus the existential philosopher and novelist, divided humanity into executioners (bourreaux), victims (victimes) and doctors (médicins). He urged men to be doctors, healers, rather than excutioners or victims.

This man seems to have taken that philosophy to heart.

FTA:
"He wanted to expose the people who cheat the poor in the name of gods, who promise false cures for cancer or do black magic to perform so-called miracles," Girme said. "He would say he was a medical doctor but that superstition was a bigger disease causing a lot of harm, especially to the poor and the gullible."


A healer of bodies and souls, of physical and mental diseases, of ignorance, the great enemy of love and wisdom and truth.

He may have been an atheist (or as close as an Indian and Hindu can get), but whatever his belief systems or prejudices as a man, he caught the essence of true faith and charity:

FTA:
Dabholkar had refused to join any political party and, while Hindu by birth, eschewed its traditional teachings. Instead, he believed that the best people could do for society was to "live in harmony with each other and use your brain," Girme said.


This is not the first time that I have heard this message. I saw it in an article by J.B.S. Haldane, who was not only a great scientist and popularizer of science, but also a great Indian in the last decade or so of his life. In the 1950s he emigrated to India (having learned to love it while a British soldier in World War I, and he and his wive lived there until he died in 1964 (IIRC).

This is the modern atheist and scientific answer to the Old Testament injunction quoted and glossed by Jesus in the New Testament:

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A36-40&versi on =ESV">Matthew 22:36-40 ESV / 120 helpful votesOver the years I've seen a growing intolerance among many religions (and not just the fundamentalists who are notorious for it). Nationalism and bigotry are on the rise among many populations hard pressed by economic, political and social change, as well as confronting intellectual and religious diversity more than ever before.

You can find evidence of this in J.B.S. Haldane's native Scotland (at Edinburgh University, even) and in his adopted India, but it is global in nature.

We are forced to ask the musical question:   Why do the nations rage so furiously together, and why do they imagine a vain thing?

The question was answered long ago:  money, power, influence, greed and lust.

James 4
4From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.



And here is Paul the Apostle on the same subject:Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
www.biblegateway.com="" passage="" search="Romans+13%3A8-10&version=ESV"" target="_blank">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13 %3A8-10&version=E SV">Romans 13:8-10  ESV / 101 helpful votes Let us join the protesters against this murder and say with them "We are all  Dabholkar."

FTA:
"The atmosphere of intolerance and anti-science attitude is sweeping the Indian subcontinent," the scientists said in a statement. "There is a deliberate plot to push our society towards fanaticism."


This is true of every continent (except perhaps Antarctica, which is populated almost entirely with scientists).

In France (and Quebec) intolerance is pushing away all signs of faith except for the State Religion (which is especially ironic, seeing as France is a secular state, albeit overwhelmingly Roman Catholic).

In Russia the Eastern Orthodox Church is all but established and persecutes not only gays and lesbians, or chick bands, but other religions and sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormans, and even Jedi and Hobbits.

In the US, it is mostly Muslims (but also anybody brown and foreign-looking, such as Sikhs and Hindus, and even Jews and Christians if they look like Arabs or Muslims). In Egypt the Copts, in Israel the Marionite Christians, Druze and Muslims, every where somebody is persecuted and possibly killed for religion or lack thereof.

I had some good news a day or two ago: Ottawa, where I live, was named the top city in a group of cities that included London, New York and Copenhagen, for its talent, technology and tolerance. And I can see that when I walk the streets. You seldom hear a catcall, even from pickup trucks or cars full of teenagers, you seldom see any sign of intolerance, while we are called "Silicon Valley North" (just as many cities are called the Athens of the North). You can see the prosperity and the well-being that comes from bringing together talent and technology and tolerance to build for all rather than the few and the supposedly right and righteous.

Most religions boast of their martyrs and many boast of the martyrs they have made of others, but reason, science and atheism should never be like these.

There are only two legs to the Law according to the Torah, Christ, and us Unbelievers: love for all and love for the truth, justice and beauty, whether it is found in God, Nature, Reason, Science, or Man.

Let us agree on one thing: we are all Dabholkar. We are all Spartacus. We are all God's Chillun whenever we have rime or reason, rhythm or righteousness in our minds and in our hearts.

All God's Chillun got rhythm.
All God's Chillun got wings.
But all God's chillun ain't got shoes.

And sadly, they've got guns, we've got guns, all God's chillun got guns.
 
2013-08-22 04:22:32 PM  
WHAT!?  Who would gun-down someone just because.... oh, it's Inda.  Nevermind.
 
2013-08-22 04:58:50 PM  

I May Be Crazy But...: If you'll leave off the "fairly often", I'm in.


Actually I said "they don't do it very often". (slightly paraphrased for clarity)
 
2013-08-22 05:03:15 PM  

Farking Canuck: I May Be Crazy But...: If you'll leave off the "fairly often", I'm in.

Actually I said "they don't do it very often". (slightly paraphrased for clarity)


Apparently reading isn't my strong suit, then.
 
2013-08-22 05:14:37 PM  
Its pretty frickin scary that those people have nuclear weapons
And that they are in a sorta war with their equally batshiat crazy neighbors that also have nuclear weapons
 
2013-08-22 06:02:09 PM  
TFA: "He would say he was a medical doctor but that superstition was a bigger disease causing a lot of harm, especially to the poor and the gullible."

Superstition was a bigger disease than being a medical doctor? Methinks this sentence was poorly phrased.
 
2013-08-23 03:44:57 PM  

Kit Fister: KnowledgeJunkie: So maybe tone down the rhetoric a little bit and deal with the facts of the situation and you won't get perceived as "stupid" or have to deal with being "buillied".

If he only talked to those who willingly sought him out, I retract my statement. If he went out and actively attempted to preach, then I stand behind them.  I got the sense that his activism was more in the vein of the latter than the former.


Well, it sounds like you're going for the secondary definition of preach: "to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action;specifically: to exhort in an officious or tiresome manner". I don't perceive this as tiresome or officious- it's more like going around and warning your immediate neighbors of a gas leak, or perhaps being the person who flags people down on the highway when there's a hazard ahead on the road. I differentiate what he does compared to what a standard preacher would do by the fact that what he claims is backed by facts and the scientific method.

ko_kyi: megarian: Now this thread is dildos.

is this a filter?


No- Metalocalypse reference in regards to a post up-thread.
 
2013-08-23 04:58:01 PM  

KnowledgeJunkie: Well, it sounds like you're going for the secondary definition of preach: "to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action;specifically: to exhort in an officious or tiresome manner". I don't perceive this as tiresome or officious- it's more like going around and warning your immediate neighbors of a gas leak, or perhaps being the person who flags people down on the highway when there's a hazard ahead on the road. I differentiate what he does compared to what a standard preacher would do by the fact that what he claims is backed by facts and the scientific method.


If he's doing so to warn people who are actively involving themselves in practices that directly harm them, then I might agree. however, if not, then he has no business doing any of that unless they seek him out and ask questions.  It comes down to this: If i want advice on a religion, I will seek out someone who practices that religion and is knowledgeable about same. If I'm curious about something scientific, I'll seek out a scientist. But people of EITHER side who intrude and attempt to educate me without my invitation are equally meeting that former criteria and are equally unwelcome.
 
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