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(The New York Times)   Ichiro Suzuki is now "Mr. 4000"   (nytimes.com) divider line 103
    More: Cool, Ichiro Suzuki, Yankees, Mets, Josh Thole, playoffs, Jayson Nix, Eduardo Nunez, Subway Series  
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834 clicks; posted to Sports » on 22 Aug 2013 at 8:47 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



103 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-22 08:50:35 AM
Be nice to see him get to 3000 in MLB, but it's gonna be tough.
 
2013-08-22 08:57:17 AM
Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB
 
2013-08-22 08:58:01 AM
Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.
 
2013-08-22 09:05:11 AM

Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB


Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.
 
2013-08-22 09:07:31 AM

Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.


In a league where the baseball is smaller, Umps give strikes to famous pitchers, and power hitters are rare.
 
2013-08-22 09:08:32 AM
So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?
 
2013-08-22 09:15:10 AM

Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.


Wins is a horrible metric.  If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma).  They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.
 
2013-08-22 09:15:23 AM

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense.  Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


This
 
2013-08-22 09:16:24 AM

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


I personally think it's something different.  Japan is certainly a less competitive league than MLB but is better than AAA.  I also don't consider WHA goals or USFL rushing yards as having validity.
 
2013-08-22 09:16:40 AM

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


Japanese baseball is pretty high level.  Many MLBers have played stints there, and a helluva lot of good players have made the transition from Japanese to MLB.

That being said, MLB won't count those hits, as it would mean a sea change for stats.

"And here's Hideki Matsui, a .340 career hitter*"
 
2013-08-22 09:18:29 AM
First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.
 
2013-08-22 09:19:14 AM
The Japanese league numbers will be referenced for Ichiro's Hall Of Fame plaque, but that's it.

Still, HOF.
 
2013-08-22 09:20:36 AM

meanmutton: Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.

Wins is a horrible metric.  If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma).  They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.


ERA and WAR aren't exactly "career" statistics, in the sense that they don't accumulate. The point is that Japanese pitchers are successfully making the transition to MLB, even while facing MLB batters, which lends credence to Ichiro's numbers.
 
2013-08-22 09:20:46 AM

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


NPB teams are usually rated between AAA and MLB, and the gap narrows a little each year.  At the beginning of Ichiro's NPB career, AAA is probably a fair assessment.  The best players obviously can thrive over here (Ichiro, Darvish, etc.).  It used to be a pitcher's league, but now the scoring is pretty comparable to the US.

I don't think anyone will compare them head-to-head without adding the caveat, but I think it's still worth acknowledging the accomplishments of players with impressive professional career tallies like Ichiro, Saduharo Oh, Mike D, etc.

That all said, Pete Rose is a dick, and Ichiro is awesome.  MLB should troll Rose by holding massive Ichiro celebrations.

In similar news, I think the Yankees should hold a random "Derek Jeter Appreciation Day" during one of A-Rod's appeal games, and arrange for A-Rod to hand Jeter a trophy inscribed "The greatest shortstop ever to play for the Yankees".  If A-Rod wants to troll the baseball world, the baseball world should troll A-Rod.
 
2013-08-22 09:22:17 AM
2 words:

Jigger Statz.
 
2013-08-22 09:24:17 AM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.


Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.
 
2013-08-22 09:31:47 AM
As Japan has won the World Baseball Classic twice, and America never, proving the superiority of Japanese baseball, of course his hits in Japan should count.

/runs out of the thread like Ichiro on a grounder to first base
 
2013-08-22 09:48:34 AM

Mateorocks: Be nice to see him get to 3000 in MLB, but it's gonna be tough.


It would require about a season and a half if he can keep the pace he's currently on.  I think he has the body to play at 41, but I don't know if that is actually true.
 
2013-08-22 09:49:50 AM

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


THIS.

/hates the Yanks
//but Congrats Ichiro!
 
2013-08-22 09:51:40 AM
The one from Japan shouldn't count. Are they going to start counting hits for other players from other countries too? Maybe include everyones hits going all the way back to little league? It's stupid.
 
2013-08-22 09:53:37 AM
It's a meaningful accomplishment, but I still think it was out of place that the game stopped and the team went out to congratulate him. In fact, it bothered me a bit.

/Not trolling.
 
2013-08-22 09:55:56 AM

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

MLB should treat it like FIFA does: Any top flight league in the world counts. But in this case is only for the Jap league.

And if you're worried about Sadaharu Oh record being counted, remember I said MLB should count them only for players who played in both leagues. Since Sadaharu Oh never played for MLB, then his stats won't count for the league.

But guys like Ichiro and Matsui should definitely get their Japanese numbers counted.
 
2013-08-22 09:58:00 AM

abhorrent1: The one from Japan shouldn't count. Are they going to start counting hits for other players from other countries too? Maybe include everyones hits going all the way back to little league? It's stupid.


No, what's stupid is this slippery slope comment. Little league? Seriously?

We already have an international example of a sport counting the stats from different countries as long as it's a top flight league, so it's not like it's some kind of bizarre new idea.
 
2013-08-22 10:00:10 AM

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there


Tuffy Rhodes.

Matt Murton.

Hector Luna

Wladimir Balentien

Do you want me to keep going? I can.
 
2013-08-22 10:04:51 AM

rocky_howard: Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.


My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher.  And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.
 
2013-08-22 10:07:48 AM

DeWayne Mann: rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there

Tuffy Rhodes.

Matt Murton.

Hector Luna

Wladimir Balentien

Do you want me to keep going? I can.


Missing the point, brah. Obviously some of them will end up doing good, but it's not a sure-fire thing. Like oh you come from MLB? Therefore you'll tear it up here.
 
2013-08-22 10:09:26 AM

wxboy: That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.


Pretty much. Same reason why Latin American footballers go to European Leagues. But their stats on top flight Latino leagues are still counted.
 
2013-08-22 10:15:34 AM

rocky_howard: Missing the point, brah


Uh huh. Nice job moving the goal posts.

Wily Mo Pena.

Lastings Milledge

Alex Ramirez

Alex Cabrera

Micah Hoffpauir

Seth Greisinger

Randy Messenger

Bryan Bullington

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.
 
2013-08-22 10:17:56 AM

idesofmarch: wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense.  Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.


Considering Barry Bonds is the current HR "king", I'd rather have Oh instead.

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

This


Seconded.
 
2013-08-22 10:19:47 AM
And presumably Sadaharu Oh is now the all-time home run leader at 868 and will be inducted into Cooperstown any day now.
 
2013-08-22 10:21:07 AM

chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)


If there's a comparable in terms of bat control, Wade Boggs would be Ichiro's doppleganger.  Ichiro had such good bat control, he could change his swing and hit 20-30 HRs if he had so wished.
 
2013-08-22 10:22:24 AM

DeWayne Mann: rocky_howard: Missing the point, brah

Uh huh. Nice job moving the goal posts.

Wily Mo Pena.

Lastings Milledge

Alex Ramirez

Alex Cabrera

Micah Hoffpauir

Seth Greisinger

Randy Messenger

Bryan Bullington

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.


Define "domination". They suddenly became leaders across stats or just had good seasons?

Even though, I think the argument you could make is that players from America are stronger, thus it's easier for them to hit the ball further, which translates into inflated stats, while Japanese players aren't generally known for power. It's a bunch of Derek Jeters overthere.

For pitchers, I could see your argument, but  how exactly does that invalidate Ichiro'shiats? Especially when he came to America and batted more hits than anyone anyway.
 
2013-08-22 10:27:09 AM

rocky_howard: Define "domination".


No, you define "domination." Because any definition I provide will surely be "missing the point, brah."

rocky_howard: For pitchers, I could see your argument, but how exactly does that invalidate Ichiro'shiats?


I didn't say it does. You said, and I quote

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.


That's incredibly wrong.

Tell you what: you stop saying factually incorrect things, I'll stop pointing them out. Deal?
 
2013-08-22 10:30:16 AM
Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

I'd be willing to bet that the Japanese league is as good or better than the minors. So, if Ichiro is the sixth player on the above list...that is pretty goddamn good.

Not to mention he has a goddamn laser rocket arm and was probably one of the fastest in the league 10 years ago.
 
2013-08-22 10:34:20 AM
Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.
 
2013-08-22 10:37:11 AM

DeWayne Mann: No, you define "domination." Because any definition I provide will surely be "missing the point, brah."


Oh, look, he played a "NO U". Great argument!

DeWayne Mann: I didn't say it does.


Why are you even arguing then?

DeWayne Mann: You said, and I quote

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

That's incredibly wrong.

Tell you what: you stop saying factually incorrect things, I'll stop pointing them out. Deal?


Prove it. Just name dropping someone =/= proof of domination.

For example:

"Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

Now, let's see his best season overhere:


Lg    G    PA    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    SB    CS    BB    SO    BA    OBP    SLG    OPS    OPS+

AL    84  304  276   36   83   15      2      11      42      0       1      20     90   .301   .349    .489     .838       110


Oh, look, similar numbers!
 
2013-08-22 10:40:18 AM
Remeber folks

rocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!


To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.
 
2013-08-22 10:47:17 AM

Outrageous Muff: Remeber folksrocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.


The real problem is I'm not seeing any dingers on his stats sheet.
 
2013-08-22 10:48:38 AM

wxboy: rocky_howard: Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher.  And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.


Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.
 
2013-08-22 10:49:59 AM

Outrageous Muff: Remeber folksrocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.


Hey, now, I like UZR but WAR is incredibly flawed.
 
2013-08-22 10:54:08 AM

meanmutton: Hey, now, I like UZR but WAR is incredibly flawed.


Really? UZR at best, is a formula that needs 2-3 full seasons at a position to gauge the player's ability.
 
2013-08-22 10:58:04 AM

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.


I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure.  Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.
 
2013-08-22 10:59:51 AM
This is a fascinating conversation about the level of play in Japanese professional baseball but I'm pretty sure subby's Tom Selleck movie reference was to spur a Magnum PI threadjack:

www.detroitccw.com

Fine, I'll keep it on topic because Magnum was about the kids and sports and stuff:
cdn.static.ovimg.com
 
2013-08-22 11:01:52 AM
and just because its awesome:
transfernation.com
 
2013-08-22 11:10:34 AM

DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.


I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)


..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.


This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.


You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..
 
2013-08-22 11:25:09 AM

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


A-Rod is a piece of crap human being, but my goodness, the young A-Rod (Seattle years) embodied just about the most perfect prototype for a ball player.

Played a premium defensive position well, hit for power, got on base at a high clip, had great speed (went 40-40 when he 22).

I get that (especially during the Yankee years) he has done some bush league crap on the field and he gets points taken away for that. Still, there is no way that Ichiro or Jeter are better examples of how the game should be played.
 
2013-08-22 11:26:13 AM
Meh. His on base percentage sucks for a leadoff hitter, and he plays the least-important defensive position. Dude is incredibly overrated.
 
2013-08-22 11:26:37 AM

rocky_howard: "Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

Now, let's see his best season overhere:


Lg    G    PA    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    SB    CS    BB    SO    BA    OBP    SLG    OPS    OPS+

AL    84  304  276   36   83   15      2      11      42      0       1      20     90   .301   .349    .489     .838       110


Are you seriously trying to say a 591 slugging is similar to a 489 because "he still struck out a lot?"

There are no Japanese players who weren't any good over there, then came here and were good.
 
2013-08-22 11:27:18 AM

wxboy: I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure.  Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.


Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.

And what made you think Ichiro wasn't a bench player when he was 18?

Oh wait, he was and only started playing full time when he was 20.

YearAgeTeamAVGHRRBIABHBBSB199218Orix Blue Wave.25305952433199319Orix Blue Wave.18813641220199420Orix Blue Wave.38513545462105129
 
2013-08-22 11:32:20 AM
Oops, last post graphic came out wrong. (Thanks Fark for making the preview look good and the actual post be crap...)

wxboy: Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.


Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.

And what made you think Ichiro wasn't a bench player when he was 18?

Oh wait, he was and only started playing full time when he was 20.

Year - Age - Team - AVG - HR - RBI - AB - H - BB - SB
1992 - 18 - Orix Blue Wave - .253 - 0 - 5 - 95 - 24 - 3 - 3
1993 - 19 - Orix Blue Wave - .188 - 1 - 3 - 64 - 12 - 2 -0
1994 - 20 - Orix Blue Wave - .385 - 13 - 54 - 546 - 210 - 51 - 29
 
2013-08-22 11:35:52 AM

Dafatone: Are you seriously trying to say a 591 slugging is similar to a 489 because "he still struck out a lot?"


Nope, that's not what I said. At all.

There are no Japanese players who weren't any good over there, then came here and were good.

True, but I don't think bad American players doing good there has to do with actual skill. You're only mentioning hitters.  Power helps cover the lack of finesse. What about the bad American pitchers going there? Are they suddenly good? I think that would be more telling.
 
2013-08-22 11:39:29 AM

DeWayne Mann: rocky_howard: Missing the point, brah

Uh huh. Nice job moving the goal posts.

Wily Mo Pena.

Lastings Milledge

Alex Ramirez

Alex Cabrera

Micah Hoffpauir

Seth Greisinger

Randy Messenger

Bryan Bullington

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.


Cecil Fielder
Randy Bass
Davey Johnson
 
2013-08-22 11:43:40 AM
Something else to point out...

Ichiro got to his 2722 MLB hits faster than anyone ever, even Rose, so it's no stretch to imagine he would have easily eclipsed 4000 had he played his whole career in MLB.
 
2013-08-22 11:49:39 AM

rocky_howard: Oops, last post graphic came out wrong. (Thanks Fark for making the preview look good and the actual post be crap...)

wxboy: Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.

Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.

And what made you think Ichiro wasn't a bench player when he was 18?

Oh wait, he was and only started playing full time when he was 20.

Year - Age - Team - AVG - HR - RBI - AB - H - BB - SB
1992 - 18 - Orix Blue Wave - .253 - 0 - 5 - 95 - 24 - 3 - 3
1993 - 19 - Orix Blue Wave - .188 - 1 - 3 - 64 - 12 - 2 -0
1994 - 20 - Orix Blue Wave - .385 - 13 - 54 - 546 - 210 - 51 - 29


I'm just saying the circumstances might have been different here.

Also, I just noticed that they play fewer games in a season in Japan than here, so that supresses his potential hit total vs. a full U.S. career.  Just another reason it's hard to extrapolate what might have been.
 
2013-08-22 11:51:41 AM

The Bestest: Something else to point out...

Ichiro got to his 2722 MLB hits faster than anyone ever, even Rose, so it's no stretch to imagine he would have easily eclipsed 4000 had he played his whole career in MLB.


Not to mention Rose played until he was FORTY FIVE!!

And like you said, it took Ichiro 13 years to do reach 2722, while it took Rose 14 to reach 2762

And even better, Ichiro has played from 27 to 39. Rose hits during those years were just 2,265.

"But Ichiro became a full player at 20!! Rose at 22. Not fair!" Okay, from 25 to 37 Rose got 2,244.

Ichiro is a better hitter any way you look at it.
 
2013-08-22 12:05:48 PM
And yet Rose's lifetime OBP was 13 points better than Suzuki.and his OPS is 6 points better, despite including all those years after age 40 when he wasn't productive.  Rose also played in an extreme pitchers era, Ichiro played in an extreme hitters era.
 
2013-08-22 12:13:28 PM
Ichiro Suzuki is now "Mr. 4000"

lol no

He's still a first ballot HOFer but lol no
 
2013-08-22 12:20:10 PM
Wake me up when the ESPN shills are making their case for Tuffy Rhodes.  Until then this Mr. 4,000 is pure nonsense.
 
2013-08-22 12:32:50 PM
Ichiro said that he does not have Rose's 4,256 on his radar, but he does have a hit total in mind.

With 4,000 career hits now crossed off the to-do list, Ichiro can now turn his focus to joining the 3,000-hit club in the Majors. He sits just 278 hits shy of that achievement, and is under contract with the Yankees through the 2014 season.

"I think that's a goal that is easier to make," Ichiro said. "Nobody will say anything about 3,000. There will be no debating from any fans or media."


So... Ichiro doesn't have Rose's total on his radar, since that's a whole 256 hits away. But he thinks an easier goal to reach is 3,000 MLB hits, which is just 278 hits away.

i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-08-22 12:46:45 PM

chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.


Ichiro has power but when he was in Seattle he said "sure I could hit 20 homers + but I'd strike out a lot more." Power hitter wasn't his job description; get on base, that's it.

/if any two Mariners had taken on just half his work ethic the Ms would have been awesome.
 
2013-08-22 12:55:27 PM

RminusQ: Ichiro said that he does not have Rose's 4,256 on his radar, but he does have a hit total in mind.

With 4,000 career hits now crossed off the to-do list, Ichiro can now turn his focus to joining the 3,000-hit club in the Majors. He sits just 278 hits shy of that achievement, and is under contract with the Yankees through the 2014 season.

"I think that's a goal that is easier to make," Ichiro said. "Nobody will say anything about 3,000. There will be no debating from any fans or media."

So... Ichiro doesn't have Rose's total on his radar, since that's a whole 256 hits away. But he thinks an easier goal to reach is 3,000 MLB hits, which is just 278 hits away.

[i1.kym-cdn.com image 268x268]


Clearly Ichiro is aware of the type of debate happening in this thread, and would like everyone to shut up once and for all.
 
2013-08-22 01:35:14 PM

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.


I love how Mariners fans are willing to accept perpetual mediocrity as long as their favorite over the hill players come back.
 
2013-08-22 01:36:00 PM

rocky_howard: Why are you even arguing then?


If you (or anyone else) say something factually incorrect in a baseball thread, I will call you on it. That's what I do.

rocky_howard: Prove it. Just name dropping someone =/= proof of domination.


Yes, because I'm sure that if I broke down what they were all doing, THAT would make you admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.

How about you take the time to do a little research on the subject before making stuff up, ok? That's all I ask.

The Bestest: I -knew- you'd say that.


Hey now, I ALMOST said "Because I hate fun, two words: Jigger Statz."

Job Creator: Cecil Fielder
Randy Bass
Davey Johnson


I was mostly aiming for more recent guys to avoid the inevitable "well, that was 30 years ago so it doesn't count!", but yep. These guys too. The story of Randy Bass is particularly amusing.
 
2013-08-22 01:42:40 PM

PowerSlacker: love how Mariners fans are willing to accept perpetual mediocrity as long as their favorite over the hill players come back.


..there's a Nintendo joke in here somewhere..
 
2013-08-22 01:45:01 PM

DeWayne Mann: Yes, because I'm sure that if I broke down what they were all doing, THAT would make you admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.

How about you take the time to do a little research on the subject before making stuff up, ok? That's all I ask.


Sorry brah, that's not how it works. I do my own research as you can see from my other posts. I don't have to do the research to support YOUR points.

And going by your posts, your attitude is that of a pissing contest, not actual conversation, so yeah, good luck on that.
 
2013-08-22 01:48:09 PM

rocky_howard: DeWayne Mann: Yes, because I'm sure that if I broke down what they were all doing, THAT would make you admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.

How about you take the time to do a little research on the subject before making stuff up, ok? That's all I ask.

Sorry brah, that's not how it works. I do my own research as you can see from my other posts. I don't have to do the research to support YOUR points.

And going by your posts, your attitude is that of a pissing contest, not actual conversation, so yeah, good luck on that.


Hey, you wanna look uninformed and stupid? Be my guest.

But I'm gonna keep pointing it out. Fair warning.
 
2013-08-22 01:55:16 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hey, you wanna look uninformed and stupid? Be my guest.

But I'm gonna keep pointing it out. Fair warning.


Hey, wanna look douchey and idiotic? Be my guest.

But I'll start pointing it out. Fair warning.

Idiot.
 
2013-08-22 02:04:16 PM

rocky_howard: DeWayne Mann: Hey, you wanna look uninformed and stupid? Be my guest.

But I'm gonna keep pointing it out. Fair warning.

Hey, wanna look douchey and idiotic? Be my guest.

But I'll start pointing it out. Fair warning.

Idiot.


I swear to god I will turn this car around.
 
2013-08-22 02:13:53 PM

DeWayne Mann: Hey, you wanna look uninformed and stupid? Be my guest.


rocky_howard: Hey, wanna look douchey and idiotic? Be my guest.


img842.imageshack.us
 
2013-08-22 02:23:03 PM

Dafatone: There are no Japanese players who weren't any good over there, then came here and were good.


In fairness, that's not proof they couldn't - just proof that MLB isn't going to take a chance on you if you aren't good over there.

PowerSlacker: I love how Mariners fans are willing to accept perpetual mediocrity as long as their favorite over the hill players come back.


Well we can have sh*tty to mediocre teams every year with new players or we can have sh*tty to mediocre teams every year with some players from when we were a little better.
 
2013-08-22 02:39:14 PM

whither_apophis: chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.

Ichiro has power but when he was in Seattle he said "sure I could hit 20 homers + but I'd strike out a lot more." Power hitter wasn't his job description; get on base, that's it.

/if any two Mariners had taken on just half his work ethic the Ms would have been awesome.


He has a great work ethic, true.  But he didn't do a particularly good job at getting on base considering his batting average was so high.  He really didn't score many runs either considering.  Strikeouts don't have any real negative value, especially for a leadoff hitter.  The Mariners would have been better off with the homers and walking more.
 
2013-08-22 02:53:34 PM
I'll just leave this here.

Because it's 6:48 of Ichiro awesomeness.
 
2013-08-22 02:54:52 PM

The Bestest: DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.

I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..


Ichiro isn't a spoiled brat. He's got a huge ego, but he knows how to keep t under control.
 
2013-08-22 02:59:31 PM

Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB


Considering that Japanese leagues would probably lose to AAA teams, this should not be recognized for his career.  Do AAA, Mexican, or Dominican league teams carry over their hits to the majors?
 
2013-08-22 03:03:59 PM

MFAWG: The Bestest: DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.

I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..

Ichiro isn't a spoiled brat. He's got a huge ego, but he knows how to keep t under control.


Funny thing is that Griffey in his last full year was a better offensive player than Ichiro is now.  Even hitting .214.  Mainly because he could take a walk and because he hit for power.
 
2013-08-22 03:05:14 PM

IAmRight: Well we can have sh*tty to mediocre teams every year with new players or we can have sh*tty to mediocre teams every year with some players from when we were a little better.


That's the perfect one sentence summary of Seattle sports.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:44 PM

PowerSlacker: That's the perfect one sentence summary of Seattle sports.


Now now, the Seahawks are finally trying to not be sh*tty or mediocre. Note that no one is requesting that a bunch of players from the past come back.
 
2013-08-22 03:09:46 PM

JohnnyRebel88: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Considering that Japanese leagues would probably lose to AAA teams, this should not be recognized for his career.  Do AAA, Mexican, or Dominican league teams carry over their hits to the majors?


Well, considering Japan won the first two Baseball Classics and Dominican won the latest one without losing a single game, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

Oh, that's because America doesn't care? Too bad, that's not how international sports competitions work.
 
2013-08-22 03:11:35 PM

RminusQ: DeWayne Mann: Hey, you wanna look uninformed and stupid? Be my guest.

rocky_howard: Hey, wanna look douchey and idiotic? Be my guest.


You're right. That was stupid. I apologize DeWayneMann.
 
2013-08-22 03:14:08 PM

Five Tails of Fury: I'll just leave this here.

Because it's 6:48 of Ichiro awesomeness.


I

I was at the game where he threw out Terrance Long in Oakland. It was awesome... My media server is still called "ichiro"...
 
2013-08-22 03:18:18 PM

IAmRight: PowerSlacker: That's the perfect one sentence summary of Seattle sports.

Now now, the Seahawks are finally trying to not be sh*tty or mediocre. Note that no one is requesting that a bunch of players from the past come back.


Good point.  It's nice to see they have finally gotten their shiat together.
 
2013-08-22 03:19:59 PM

Job Creator: MFAWG: The Bestest: DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.

I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..

Ichiro isn't a spoiled brat. He's got a huge ego, but he knows how to keep t under control.

Funny thing is that Griffey in his last full year was a better offensive player than Ichiro is now.  Even hitting .214.  Mainly because he could take a walk and because he hit for power.


His last full year wasn't really an issue, and if it had been left there we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But it wasn't left there, was it?
 
2013-08-22 03:36:21 PM

whither_apophis: chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.

Ichiro has power but when he was in Seattle he said "sure I could hit 20 homers + but I'd strike out a lot more." Power hitter wasn't his job description; get on base, that's it.


Thing is, he wasn't even especially great at getting on base.  He's 31st among active players in career OBP, behind guys like Jayson Werth and Brad Hawpe who don't get nearly as much attention as "leadoff guys".  And when Ichiro did get on base, it was rarely for extra bases.

That's why I downplayed his bat.  If he was an offensive force like Rickey (.401 career OBP, good power to boot), this is a very different discussion.
 
2013-08-22 03:40:04 PM

MFAWG: Job Creator: MFAWG: The Bestest: DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.

I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..

Ichiro isn't a spoiled brat. He's got a huge ego, but he knows how to keep t under control.

Funny thing is that Griffey in his last full year was a better offensive player than Ichiro is now.  Even hitting .214.  Mainly because he could take a walk and because he hit for power.

His last full year wasn't really an issue, and if it had been left there we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But it wasn't left there, was it?


Lighten up Francis.  All I'm saying is as bad a player as Griffey was in 2009, he wasn't as bad as Ichiro is now.
 
2013-08-22 03:57:21 PM
bioproj.sabr.org
 
2013-08-22 03:58:22 PM

Job Creator: whither_apophis: chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.

Ichiro has power but when he was in Seattle he said "sure I could hit 20 homers + but I'd strike out a lot more." Power hitter wasn't his job description; get on base, that's it.

/if any two Mariners had taken on just half his work ethic the Ms would have been awesome.

He has a great work ethic, true.  But he didn't do a particularly good job at getting on base considering his batting average was so high.  He really didn't score many runs either considering.  Strikeouts don't have any real negative value, especially for a leadoff hitter.  The Mariners would have been better off with the homers and walking more.


Not getting runs is the fault of everyone behind him in the line up. And there wasn't anybody ahead of him to sac fly in. Yeah he's a singles hitter that was a great base stealing threat. Sad he wasted his prime years with the Mariners.

/and we built their damn stadium so they aren't going anywhere...
 
2013-08-22 04:15:36 PM

rocky_howard: JohnnyRebel88: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Considering that Japanese leagues would probably lose to AAA teams, this should not be recognized for his career.  Do AAA, Mexican, or Dominican league teams carry over their hits to the majors?

Well, considering Japan won the first two Baseball Classics and Dominican won the latest one without losing a single game, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

Oh, that's because America doesn't care? Too bad, that's not how international sports competitions work.


The World Baseball Classic is a money grab and means absolutely nothing. It has nowhere near the intensity or importance of Olympic hockey and basketball.
 
2013-08-22 04:22:05 PM

ElwoodCuse: rocky_howard: JohnnyRebel88: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Considering that Japanese leagues would probably lose to AAA teams, this should not be recognized for his career.  Do AAA, Mexican, or Dominican league teams carry over their hits to the majors?

Well, considering Japan won the first two Baseball Classics and Dominican won the latest one without losing a single game, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

Oh, that's because America doesn't care? Too bad, that's not how international sports competitions work.

The World Baseball Classic is a money grab and means absolutely nothing. It has nowhere near the intensity or importance of Olympic hockey and basketball.


Or, better yet, because the American team isn't drawn from all of MLB.  Because, duh, it's an international league.  If the American team was just an MLB allstar team, they'd pretty much crush everyone.
 
2013-08-22 04:29:04 PM

ElwoodCuse: The World Baseball Classic is a money grab and means absolutely nothing. It has nowhere near the intensity or importance of Olympic hockey and basketball.


My view on the WBC isn't nearly as cynical, but Olympic hockey is an entirely different animal, and I'd argue about basketball.

Olympic hockey may as well be the NHL with the teams re-arranged by nationality, which is possible due to the already existent high level of diversity in the sport (assuming you count 7 different flavors of Eastern European as "diverse", but I digress..).

I'd honestly put the WBC and Olympic basketball on the same level with the main thing holding the WBC back are the logistics of it (the timing, the format and teams covertly blocking their best players from participating).
 
2013-08-22 04:40:17 PM

rocky_howard: Oh, that's because America doesn't care? Too bad, that's not how international sports competitions work.


but we are talking about a MLB record, how many people refer to Sadahuro Oh? If you say all times hits record about 90% of sports fans will say baseball is dull and return to their domestic beers ( light beers) and talk about foosball but of the 10% remaining most will talk about Rose.

And using the World Baseball Classic as some sort of barometer for the quality of their leagues is a joke, because where do the best players from all those teams play? It isn't that Americans care less about non Americans rather they care less about leagues which are not considered the greatest (look at the MLS).
 
2013-08-22 04:54:10 PM
Might as well add his little league hits too. And any beer league softball hits he gets after he retires
 
2013-08-22 04:57:42 PM

The Bestest: My view on the WBC isn't nearly as cynical, but Olympic hockey is an entirely different animal, and I'd argue about basketball.


You'd be wrong, so you probably shouldn't.

/other countries it's important; for America it's very important to NOT LOSE
//meanwhile, no one gives a sh*t if the U.S. loses the WBC...or even knows when it's happening
 
2013-08-22 04:58:57 PM

mikaloyd: Might as well add his little league hits too. And any beer league softball hits he gets after he retires


..and even if you did all that, you could likely still count all the people that have 4000+ without taking your shoes off.

Like I said, it's no "official" milestone, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.
 
2013-08-22 05:40:43 PM

Rwa2play: Considering Barry Bonds is the current HR "king", I'd rather have Oh instead.


Oh WOULD you?
 
2013-08-22 08:14:34 PM

Job Creator: MFAWG: Job Creator: MFAWG: The Bestest: DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.

I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.

This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.

You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..

Ichiro isn't a spoiled brat. He's got a huge ego, but he knows how to keep t under control.

Funny thing is that Griffey in his last full year was a better offensive player than Ichiro is now.  Even hitting .214.  Mainly because he could take a walk and because he hit for power.

His last full year wasn't really an issue, and if it had been left there we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But it wasn't left there, was it?

Lighten up Francis.  All I'm saying is as bad a player as Griffey was in 2009, he wasn't as bad as Ichiro is now.


If you're not here, or from here, it's kind of hard to get a handle on the love affair folks have with Junior.

I'm not making this up: when it was announced that he was coming back, people were calling the sports shows literally in tears. I never really got it. Great player, but not really worth all that.
 
2013-08-22 08:37:40 PM

MFAWG: I'm not making this up: when it was announced that he was coming back, people were calling the sports shows literally in tears. I never really got it. Great player, but not really worth all that.


Well, he did score the most significant run in Mariners' history.

/it's not like the franchise has had a whole ton of success; they like anyone that reminds them of the couple of seasons where they didn't completely suck
 
2013-08-22 08:53:38 PM
Baseball sucks.

Always has, always will.
 
2013-08-22 09:03:31 PM

Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB


Yes and they are washing out early as well, dice-k was supposed to be great yet he's out of the game already. Well he's with the mets, same thing basically.
 
2013-08-22 09:14:37 PM

steamingpile: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Yes and they are washing out early as well, dice-k was supposed to be great yet he's out of the game already. Well he's with the mets, same thing basically.


Well, he came after playing 7 years there. So imagine if Matsuzaka had pitched here his whole career. You're probably instinctively looking at him like a 7-season veteran, but he's in his 14th one.

He was also "supposed to be great" due to the gyroball fiasco, not because he was something extraordinaire. I mean, he is/was very good, but nothing we haven't seen before. We were just hyped due to some made up BS.
 
2013-08-23 09:29:35 AM

rocky_howard: The Bestest: Something else to point out...

Ichiro got to his 2722 MLB hits faster than anyone ever, even Rose, so it's no stretch to imagine he would have easily eclipsed 4000 had he played his whole career in MLB.

Not to mention Rose played until he was FORTY FIVE!!

And like you said, it took Ichiro 13 years to do reach 2722, while it took Rose 14 to reach 2762

And even better, Ichiro has played from 27 to 39. Rose hits during those years were just 2,265.

"But Ichiro became a full player at 20!! Rose at 22. Not fair!" Okay, from 25 to 37 Rose got 2,244.

Ichiro is a better hitter any way you look at it.


No he's not but way to not know a god damn thing about baseball, that takes talent.
 
2013-08-23 09:38:34 AM

rocky_howard: steamingpile: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Yes and they are washing out early as well, dice-k was supposed to be great yet he's out of the game already. Well he's with the mets, same thing basically.

Well, he came after playing 7 years there. So imagine if Matsuzaka had pitched here his whole career. You're probably instinctively looking at him like a 7-season veteran, but he's in his 14th one.

He was also "supposed to be great" due to the gyroball fiasco, not because he was something extraordinaire. I mean, he is/was very good, but nothing we haven't seen before. We were just hyped due to some made up BS.


Again, as mentioned earlier, until ESPN and other networks give Tuffy Rhodes the same treatment for dominating NPB this means shiat coming from them. What's amazing is how he was walked every single time after tying Ohs record just so a foreigner wouldn't break it, same with Cabrera the next year. And NPB has Olympic style stringent testing so there can be no steroid talk.
 
2013-08-23 11:31:30 AM

steamingpile: What's amazing is how he was walked every single time after tying Ohs record just so a foreigner wouldn't break it


In Japan, I think they call that "honor."
 
2013-08-23 05:15:33 PM

Slow To Return: steamingpile: What's amazing is how he was walked every single time after tying Ohs record just so a foreigner wouldn't break it

In Japan, I think they call that "honor."


Yeah in 'Murica we call that being a bunch of biatches.
 
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