If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Ichiro Suzuki is now "Mr. 4000"   (nytimes.com) divider line 103
    More: Cool, Ichiro Suzuki, Yankees, Mets, Josh Thole, playoffs, Jayson Nix, Eduardo Nunez, Subway Series  
•       •       •

841 clicks; posted to Sports » on 22 Aug 2013 at 8:47 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



103 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-08-22 08:50:35 AM  
Be nice to see him get to 3000 in MLB, but it's gonna be tough.
 
2013-08-22 08:57:17 AM  
Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB
 
2013-08-22 08:58:01 AM  
Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.
 
2013-08-22 09:05:11 AM  

Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB


Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.
 
2013-08-22 09:07:31 AM  

Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.


In a league where the baseball is smaller, Umps give strikes to famous pitchers, and power hitters are rare.
 
2013-08-22 09:08:32 AM  
So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?
 
2013-08-22 09:15:10 AM  

Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.


Wins is a horrible metric.  If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma).  They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.
 
2013-08-22 09:15:23 AM  

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense.  Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


This
 
2013-08-22 09:16:24 AM  

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


I personally think it's something different.  Japan is certainly a less competitive league than MLB but is better than AAA.  I also don't consider WHA goals or USFL rushing yards as having validity.
 
2013-08-22 09:16:40 AM  

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


Japanese baseball is pretty high level.  Many MLBers have played stints there, and a helluva lot of good players have made the transition from Japanese to MLB.

That being said, MLB won't count those hits, as it would mean a sea change for stats.

"And here's Hideki Matsui, a .340 career hitter*"
 
2013-08-22 09:18:29 AM  
First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.
 
2013-08-22 09:19:14 AM  
The Japanese league numbers will be referenced for Ichiro's Hall Of Fame plaque, but that's it.

Still, HOF.
 
2013-08-22 09:20:36 AM  

meanmutton: Slow To Return: Slow To Return: Japanese pitchers are tough, which is why we're starting to see more and more of them making the transition to MLB

Darvish with 121 wins and closing in on 1700 strikeouts already.

Wins is a horrible metric.  If you wanted to go with ERA -- 3 of the top 10 qualified pitchers in the AL in ERA are Japanese (Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Hisashi Iwakuma).  They also all have a WAR of 4.9 or 5.0 (among the top 6 in the AL) and have struck out a combined 480 batters while walking only 117.


ERA and WAR aren't exactly "career" statistics, in the sense that they don't accumulate. The point is that Japanese pitchers are successfully making the transition to MLB, even while facing MLB batters, which lends credence to Ichiro's numbers.
 
2013-08-22 09:20:46 AM  

wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?


NPB teams are usually rated between AAA and MLB, and the gap narrows a little each year.  At the beginning of Ichiro's NPB career, AAA is probably a fair assessment.  The best players obviously can thrive over here (Ichiro, Darvish, etc.).  It used to be a pitcher's league, but now the scoring is pretty comparable to the US.

I don't think anyone will compare them head-to-head without adding the caveat, but I think it's still worth acknowledging the accomplishments of players with impressive professional career tallies like Ichiro, Saduharo Oh, Mike D, etc.

That all said, Pete Rose is a dick, and Ichiro is awesome.  MLB should troll Rose by holding massive Ichiro celebrations.

In similar news, I think the Yankees should hold a random "Derek Jeter Appreciation Day" during one of A-Rod's appeal games, and arrange for A-Rod to hand Jeter a trophy inscribed "The greatest shortstop ever to play for the Yankees".  If A-Rod wants to troll the baseball world, the baseball world should troll A-Rod.
 
2013-08-22 09:22:17 AM  
2 words:

Jigger Statz.
 
2013-08-22 09:24:17 AM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.


Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)
2) Historically-good defensive RF.
3) Great ambassador for baseball who helped open the game to new audiences.

Ichiro's also a historically good baserunner, which is just gravy.

See also: Brooks Robinson.  Not quite a good enough hitter to be in the HOF, but you make the case with the glove.
 
2013-08-22 09:31:47 AM  
As Japan has won the World Baseball Classic twice, and America never, proving the superiority of Japanese baseball, of course his hits in Japan should count.

/runs out of the thread like Ichiro on a grounder to first base
 
2013-08-22 09:48:34 AM  

Mateorocks: Be nice to see him get to 3000 in MLB, but it's gonna be tough.


It would require about a season and a half if he can keep the pace he's currently on.  I think he has the body to play at 41, but I don't know if that is actually true.
 
2013-08-22 09:49:50 AM  

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


THIS.

/hates the Yanks
//but Congrats Ichiro!
 
2013-08-22 09:51:40 AM  
The one from Japan shouldn't count. Are they going to start counting hits for other players from other countries too? Maybe include everyones hits going all the way back to little league? It's stupid.
 
2013-08-22 09:53:37 AM  
It's a meaningful accomplishment, but I still think it was out of place that the game stopped and the team went out to congratulate him. In fact, it bothered me a bit.

/Not trolling.
 
2013-08-22 09:55:56 AM  

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

MLB should treat it like FIFA does: Any top flight league in the world counts. But in this case is only for the Jap league.

And if you're worried about Sadaharu Oh record being counted, remember I said MLB should count them only for players who played in both leagues. Since Sadaharu Oh never played for MLB, then his stats won't count for the league.

But guys like Ichiro and Matsui should definitely get their Japanese numbers counted.
 
2013-08-22 09:58:00 AM  

abhorrent1: The one from Japan shouldn't count. Are they going to start counting hits for other players from other countries too? Maybe include everyones hits going all the way back to little league? It's stupid.


No, what's stupid is this slippery slope comment. Little league? Seriously?

We already have an international example of a sport counting the stats from different countries as long as it's a top flight league, so it's not like it's some kind of bizarre new idea.
 
2013-08-22 10:00:10 AM  

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there


Tuffy Rhodes.

Matt Murton.

Hector Luna

Wladimir Balentien

Do you want me to keep going? I can.
 
2013-08-22 10:04:51 AM  

rocky_howard: Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.


My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher.  And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.
 
2013-08-22 10:07:48 AM  

DeWayne Mann: rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there

Tuffy Rhodes.

Matt Murton.

Hector Luna

Wladimir Balentien

Do you want me to keep going? I can.


Missing the point, brah. Obviously some of them will end up doing good, but it's not a sure-fire thing. Like oh you come from MLB? Therefore you'll tear it up here.
 
2013-08-22 10:09:26 AM  

wxboy: That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.


Pretty much. Same reason why Latin American footballers go to European Leagues. But their stats on top flight Latino leagues are still counted.
 
2013-08-22 10:15:34 AM  

rocky_howard: Missing the point, brah


Uh huh. Nice job moving the goal posts.

Wily Mo Pena.

Lastings Milledge

Alex Ramirez

Alex Cabrera

Micah Hoffpauir

Seth Greisinger

Randy Messenger

Bryan Bullington

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.
 
2013-08-22 10:17:56 AM  

idesofmarch: wxboy: So what are people's feelings about counting his career in Japan towards the 4,000?  What if he were to approach Pete Rose's mark using that metric?  I don't know how the skill levels and competitiveness of Japanese baseball compare to MLB.  Should we also consider minor league stats when applying these types of accolades to players who spend their whole career in the U.S.?

I think it's fine to count those hits in a personal achievement sense, but not in record-holder sense.  Otherwise Sadaharu Oh would be the home run king.


Considering Barry Bonds is the current HR "king", I'd rather have Oh instead.

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.

This


Seconded.
 
2013-08-22 10:19:47 AM  
And presumably Sadaharu Oh is now the all-time home run leader at 868 and will be inducted into Cooperstown any day now.
 
2013-08-22 10:21:07 AM  

chimp_ninja: Lt. Cheese Weasel: First Ballot. Anything less is a joke.

Absolutely.  My favorite comparable is Roberto Clemente:

1) Pretty good bat.  (Ichiro lacks power and patience, but is obviously awesome at contact.  Clemente was a more balanced package, but around the same overall quality.)


If there's a comparable in terms of bat control, Wade Boggs would be Ichiro's doppleganger.  Ichiro had such good bat control, he could change his swing and hit 20-30 HRs if he had so wished.
 
2013-08-22 10:22:24 AM  

DeWayne Mann: rocky_howard: Missing the point, brah

Uh huh. Nice job moving the goal posts.

Wily Mo Pena.

Lastings Milledge

Alex Ramirez

Alex Cabrera

Micah Hoffpauir

Seth Greisinger

Randy Messenger

Bryan Bullington

Is it automatic? No, because nothing in life ever is. But players who washed out of the majors go over to Japan and dominate ALL. THE. TIME.


Define "domination". They suddenly became leaders across stats or just had good seasons?

Even though, I think the argument you could make is that players from America are stronger, thus it's easier for them to hit the ball further, which translates into inflated stats, while Japanese players aren't generally known for power. It's a bunch of Derek Jeters overthere.

For pitchers, I could see your argument, but  how exactly does that invalidate Ichiro'shiats? Especially when he came to America and batted more hits than anyone anyway.
 
2013-08-22 10:27:09 AM  

rocky_howard: Define "domination".


No, you define "domination." Because any definition I provide will surely be "missing the point, brah."

rocky_howard: For pitchers, I could see your argument, but how exactly does that invalidate Ichiro'shiats?


I didn't say it does. You said, and I quote

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.


That's incredibly wrong.

Tell you what: you stop saying factually incorrect things, I'll stop pointing them out. Deal?
 
2013-08-22 10:30:16 AM  
Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)

I'd be willing to bet that the Japanese league is as good or better than the minors. So, if Ichiro is the sixth player on the above list...that is pretty goddamn good.

Not to mention he has a goddamn laser rocket arm and was probably one of the fastest in the league 10 years ago.
 
2013-08-22 10:34:20 AM  
Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.
 
2013-08-22 10:37:11 AM  

DeWayne Mann: No, you define "domination." Because any definition I provide will surely be "missing the point, brah."


Oh, look, he played a "NO U". Great argument!

DeWayne Mann: I didn't say it does.


Why are you even arguing then?

DeWayne Mann: You said, and I quote

rocky_howard: Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

That's incredibly wrong.

Tell you what: you stop saying factually incorrect things, I'll stop pointing them out. Deal?


Prove it. Just name dropping someone =/= proof of domination.

For example:

"Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

Now, let's see his best season overhere:


Lg    G    PA    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    SB    CS    BB    SO    BA    OBP    SLG    OPS    OPS+

AL    84  304  276   36   83   15      2      11      42      0       1      20     90   .301   .349    .489     .838       110


Oh, look, similar numbers!
 
2013-08-22 10:40:18 AM  
Remeber folks

rocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!


To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.
 
2013-08-22 10:47:17 AM  

Outrageous Muff: Remeber folksrocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.


The real problem is I'm not seeing any dingers on his stats sheet.
 
2013-08-22 10:48:38 AM  

wxboy: rocky_howard: Anyway, regarding Ichiro, MLB should count the stats for players who played in both leagues. They're comparable enough that it's fair (hur dur, NPB is lower. yeah? Tell me about all those American players who have gone to Japan and teared the competition there. Oh wait, you can't.

My impression of American players who have gone to Japan is that they do so because they can't get a spot here, where I imagine the pay is significantly higher.  And they can't get a spot here because they no longer have the talent to compete here, but evidently they're still good enough to merit being signed to a Japanese team.

That's why MLB is better than NLB, because the pay is better, which attracts all the best players.


Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.
 
2013-08-22 10:49:59 AM  

Outrageous Muff: Remeber folksrocky_howard: So anemic single hits and over-the-top theatrics over routine plays is how the game is supposed to be played? News to me!

To people who don't masterbate over the superiority of WAR and UZR, yes, yes it does.


Hey, now, I like UZR but WAR is incredibly flawed.
 
2013-08-22 10:54:08 AM  

meanmutton: Hey, now, I like UZR but WAR is incredibly flawed.


Really? UZR at best, is a formula that needs 2-3 full seasons at a position to gauge the player's ability.
 
2013-08-22 10:58:04 AM  

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.


I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure.  Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.
 
2013-08-22 10:59:51 AM  
This is a fascinating conversation about the level of play in Japanese professional baseball but I'm pretty sure subby's Tom Selleck movie reference was to spur a Magnum PI threadjack:

www.detroitccw.com

Fine, I'll keep it on topic because Magnum was about the kids and sports and stuff:
cdn.static.ovimg.com
 
2013-08-22 11:01:52 AM  
and just because its awesome:
transfernation.com
 
2013-08-22 11:10:34 AM  

DeWayne Mann: 2 words:

Jigger Statz.


I -knew- you'd say that.

bulldg4life: Even if you combine majors and minors, the list of professional ball players with 4000 hits is as follows:

Rose
Cobb
Musial
Aaron
Statz (stayed in the PCL because he made just as much as in the majors)


..this is what I was gonna come to the thread and say

carnifex2005: Of course it is but Ichiro had no problem hitting lots of hits in the NLB and had no problem hitting lots of hits in the MLB so I'm guessing if he came over on day one he would have been near or at 4000 hits regardless.


This is my sentiment as well. No, it's not an official record, nor should it be, but it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

MFAWG: Ichiro gets to 3000 pretty easily. He's welcome to come back to Seattle in 2015 to finish that out.


You sure about that? That worked out great for Junior Griffey..
 
2013-08-22 11:25:09 AM  

Outrageous Muff: Ichiro and Jeter both embody how the game is supposed to be played, which is a solid contrast to the shiat stain that is A-Rod.


A-Rod is a piece of crap human being, but my goodness, the young A-Rod (Seattle years) embodied just about the most perfect prototype for a ball player.

Played a premium defensive position well, hit for power, got on base at a high clip, had great speed (went 40-40 when he 22).

I get that (especially during the Yankee years) he has done some bush league crap on the field and he gets points taken away for that. Still, there is no way that Ichiro or Jeter are better examples of how the game should be played.
 
2013-08-22 11:26:13 AM  
Meh. His on base percentage sucks for a leadoff hitter, and he plays the least-important defensive position. Dude is incredibly overrated.
 
2013-08-22 11:26:37 AM  

rocky_howard: "Wily Mo Pena hasn't been quite so dominant in the Pacific League, but he does have seven homers, two more than anyone else there. He'shiatting .309/.374/.591, despite having struck out 31 times in 110 at-bats."

So this piece of news confirms my statements: Since he's physically stronger, his power made up for it. He still struck out a lot.

Now, let's see his best season overhere:


Lg    G    PA    AB    R    H    2B    3B    HR    RBI    SB    CS    BB    SO    BA    OBP    SLG    OPS    OPS+

AL    84  304  276   36   83   15      2      11      42      0       1      20     90   .301   .349    .489     .838       110


Are you seriously trying to say a 591 slugging is similar to a 489 because "he still struck out a lot?"

There are no Japanese players who weren't any good over there, then came here and were good.
 
2013-08-22 11:27:18 AM  

wxboy: I agree, except that he didn't, so we will never know for sure.  Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.


Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.

And what made you think Ichiro wasn't a bench player when he was 18?

Oh wait, he was and only started playing full time when he was 20.

YearAgeTeamAVGHRRBIABHBBSB199218Orix Blue Wave.25305952433199319Orix Blue Wave.18813641220199420Orix Blue Wave.38513545462105129
 
2013-08-22 11:32:20 AM  
Oops, last post graphic came out wrong. (Thanks Fark for making the preview look good and the actual post be crap...)

wxboy: Also, he began his career in Japan at age 18.  Here, he probably would have spent several years in the minors and as a bench player before playing full-time in the majors to rack up those stats.


Alex Rodriguez started his MLB career at 19. But didn't became a full player until he was 21.

And what made you think Ichiro wasn't a bench player when he was 18?

Oh wait, he was and only started playing full time when he was 20.

Year - Age - Team - AVG - HR - RBI - AB - H - BB - SB
1992 - 18 - Orix Blue Wave - .253 - 0 - 5 - 95 - 24 - 3 - 3
1993 - 19 - Orix Blue Wave - .188 - 1 - 3 - 64 - 12 - 2 -0
1994 - 20 - Orix Blue Wave - .385 - 13 - 54 - 546 - 210 - 51 - 29
 
Displayed 50 of 103 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report