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(Opposing Views)   If you let southern parents decide who their children will be classmates with, do you get: a) a lot of diversity, b) some diversity, or c) total segregation?   (opposingviews.com) divider line 238
    More: Sad, Alabama, lead plaintiff, George Wallace, elementary schools  
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14062 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 10:53 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



238 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-21 08:48:11 PM
xavdematoscom.ipage.com

"No! What a shock!"
 
2013-08-21 09:20:27 PM
Poor Obvious tag.  You go grab something from the fridge and return only to find you're slot has been given away.
 
2013-08-21 09:32:08 PM
The South hasn't changed.
 
2013-08-21 09:33:53 PM
So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?
 
2013-08-21 10:22:34 PM

slayer199: So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?


FTA:The complaint further alleges that the school acted deliberately in segregating the races, even denying requests; "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."
 
2013-08-21 10:25:35 PM

edmo: The South hasn't changed.


I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.
 
2013-08-21 10:27:39 PM

RexTalionis: slayer199: So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?

FTA:The complaint further alleges that the school acted deliberately in segregating the races, even denying requests; "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."


Yeah, slayer199.  Where the fark did you find your little bit of information?  Was  it from ... SATAN?

/Played well in another thread from today.
 
2013-08-21 10:29:47 PM

Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.


I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?
 
2013-08-21 10:34:49 PM

AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?


Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.
 
2013-08-21 10:55:21 PM
I wouldn't let my kids sit in class with those ignorant bastards if I could help it.
 
2013-08-21 10:57:18 PM
" The school allows parents to choose their child's teachers and classmates. "

This seems like a total sham "plan" anyway...... how does this even work?   Do they all write down their preferences, and then they picked a random lottery to see who got first choice?   Because, ok, lets say the 3rd grade classes, there is one teacher out of the five at the school lets say that is much better than the others... I'm sure all the parents wanted their kids in her class (regardless of color).  So, some parents are going to have to go with their 2nd, 3rd, etc choice.

As far as picking classmates... were the black parents primarily picking black classmates as well?   Or was it somehow the school board trying to "lead" the issue and push to same race classrooms, despite who people picked?

The damning statement though is:   "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."  Now, as I stated, the whole system seems odd to me anyway, since there is no way everyone's requests can be met like that.  It has to be a bit more overt than "I didn't get the teacher we wanted"... that has to have happened a lot.   But, if basically all cross-race matches were "denied", then, you have a pretty damning case.
 
2013-08-21 11:01:15 PM

Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.


This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.
 
2013-08-21 11:03:05 PM
Did I miss something?  The article didn't mention any all white classes did it?

Sounds like the school just has an honors/gifted program.
 
2013-08-21 11:03:59 PM
I don't think this phenomenon is just in the South.   Probably see the same sort of thing the world over.   I don't think a member of the Muslim Brotherhood would let his kid go to a U.S. school.  Would probably fight to get his kid out of Exeter.
 
2013-08-21 11:05:50 PM

Pumpernickel bread: I don't think this phenomenon is just in the South.   Probably see the same sort of thing the world over.   I don't think a member of the Muslim Brotherhood would let his kid go to a U.S. school.  Would probably fight to get his kid out of Exeter.


He'd probably send him to a madrassa in Indonesia.
 
2013-08-21 11:07:08 PM
"Under the guise of" parental choice. What part of choice don't they like?
 
2013-08-21 11:07:21 PM
Be honest now.  If you had a choice, would you want YOUR kids exposed to southern white kids?
 
2013-08-21 11:07:49 PM
Is shocked, shocked.
ww2.hdnux.com
 
2013-08-21 11:08:11 PM
Alabama: Because Afghanistan needs stupid backwards Westerners to make jokes about
 
2013-08-21 11:08:19 PM
Didn't we have thread yesterday about the most segregated communities being in the northeast?
 
2013-08-21 11:09:14 PM

Nuclear Monk: Be honest now.  If you had a choice, would you want YOUR kids exposed to southern white kids?


Thread over. Go home everyone.
 
2013-08-21 11:09:15 PM
This is odd....
 In its first year in 2009, there were six all black classrooms in Kindergarten through second grade. By 2010, there were seven all black classrooms in Kindergarten through second grade. In 2011, 18 classes from Kindergarten through sixth grade were all black.

Why did they change how they were counting this in 2011 vs. 09 & 10?  How many in K-2 in 2011 were all black?
 
2013-08-21 11:09:15 PM

AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?


And his uncle's. And it was the same guy
 
2013-08-21 11:09:29 PM
My native Alabamastan never lets me down.

Roll Tide!!!
 
2013-08-21 11:09:38 PM
Why is this a bad thing?
 
2013-08-21 11:09:43 PM
Well who really cares? Is this representative of the entire population? No? Move along.
 
2013-08-21 11:10:16 PM
It's a human thing, not a Southern thing.
Every race does it, every society does it, and we have always done it.
 
2013-08-21 11:10:28 PM

edmo: The South hasn't changed.


Since it sounds like they gave the black students and parents exactly what they asked for, I'd say the South has changed a lot.
 
2013-08-21 11:11:23 PM

RexTalionis: slayer199: So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?

FTA:The complaint further alleges that the school acted deliberately in segregating the races, even denying requests; "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."


That's called affirmative action.
 
2013-08-21 11:11:53 PM
Having lived in Alabama, I can state this much.

While walking through a large hospital, two visiting doctors were speaking Spanish to each other (I was about 20 feet behind them). A very very fat woman huffing down the hall towards us heard them and started screaming that they should speak English if they "wanted to stay here."

Another incident. I was going to deliver something to an elderly lady in a rough part of Birmingham. She asked me point blank if I was white. When I told her I was she said I should find someone black to deliver it because she wouldn't want me to get hurt in her neighborhood.

It goes both ways sometimes. I hate that it does, but there it is.
 
2013-08-21 11:12:00 PM
edmo

The South hasn't changed.

Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.
 
2013-08-21 11:12:07 PM
White on black racism prohibited, but anything on white racism perfectly ok. Thanks libmitter.
 
2013-08-21 11:14:07 PM
Dudes, it's Alabama. A LA BA MA. It is not a paragon of racial tolerance. What did you expect? It is the most redneck state in the nation. Alabama and Georgia have knockdown drag-out fights over who is the most redneck and racist. This is not at all surprising.
 
2013-08-21 11:14:21 PM

Vectron: Why is this a bad thing?


Because it proves that we're making bad choices as humans.

And because it forces the next generation to repeat the same mistakes.
 
2013-08-21 11:14:31 PM
If I remember correctly UCLA allows for segregated graduation ceremonies, so this is just prepping the kids for life at a major university.
 
2013-08-21 11:15:40 PM
I can't see this being a good idea.  Parents should be involved in their kids' schooling, but that involvement should be helping with homework, communicating with the teachers about student progress, following up with discipline from school, and attending parent/teacher conferences to get an idea about how their kids are progressing and any issues that they should be aware of.  Basically, parents need to trust the teachers' and school's judgment and reinforce that at home, and take a cooperative role, not a meddlesome one.

Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.  However, far too often parents go into snowflake mode instead of trust the judgment of the professionals at the school.
 
2013-08-21 11:15:59 PM

dletter: This is odd....
 In its first year in 2009, there were six all black classrooms in Kindergarten through second grade. By 2010, there were seven all black classrooms in Kindergarten through second grade. In 2011, 18 classes from Kindergarten through sixth grade were all black.

Why did they change how they were counting this in 2011 vs. 09 & 10?  How many in K-2 in 2011 were all black?


It would make sense to put it like that if in 2009 and 2010 they only let K-2nd graders choose their classroom, then in 2011 they let K-6 decide their classroom.
 
2013-08-21 11:16:24 PM

Vectron: Why is this a bad thing?


Separate is not equal. Fourteenth Amendment. Civil Rights Act. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Brownbeckistan.
 
2013-08-21 11:16:31 PM
Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.
 
2013-08-21 11:17:27 PM
I have a feeling that the kids had a much larger voice in this
/Who wouldn't choose their own friends to be classmates
 
2013-08-21 11:17:50 PM
Here's how my town's "magnet" school system works, where parents pick the school they want their children to go to, not based off of neighborhoods. It's been in place since the 70's. From Wikipedia:

"Each school has a magnet theme, which becomes the focus of the school's teaching style. Students have "freedom of choice" as to which school they want to attend. School selection is not dictated based on location of residence within Montclair. When registering in the district, parents rank their school preferences from highest to lowest, with preferences given for siblings of existing students and special needs. School preferences are accommodated as long as space is available."

And here's the racial brewkdown of the schools:

http://www.montclair.k12.nj.us/WebPag eFiles/1042/enrollment-10-11.pdf


So, yeah, at least my town doesn't suck as much as Alabama.

/can't we get a way to post links from a mobile device?
 
2013-08-21 11:18:08 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.


Riiiiiight.
 
2013-08-21 11:18:50 PM
Southerners you say? But how can this be?

Oh yeah. The curse on the  sons of Ham. Well, you can hardly blame them, can you?

"A black Christian is like a black person with no memory." - Chris Rock
 
2013-08-21 11:18:52 PM
So people tend to choose to be with people who are similar to themselves?

I say the following with every ounce of authority that my PhD in Social Psychology conveys:

Well DUH!!!
 
2013-08-21 11:19:29 PM

Vectron: Why is this a bad thing?


Because people like you still ask that question in 2013.
 
2013-08-21 11:19:30 PM

dletter: " The school allows parents to choose their child's teachers and classmates. "

This seems like a total sham "plan" anyway...... how does this even work?   Do they all write down their preferences, and then they picked a random lottery to see who got first choice?   Because, ok, lets say the 3rd grade classes, there is one teacher out of the five at the school lets say that is much better than the others... I'm sure all the parents wanted their kids in her class (regardless of color).  So, some parents are going to have to go with their 2nd, 3rd, etc choice.

As far as picking classmates... were the black parents primarily picking black classmates as well?   Or was it somehow the school board trying to "lead" the issue and push to same race classrooms, despite who people picked?

The damning statement though is:   "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."  Now, as I stated, the whole system seems odd to me anyway, since there is no way everyone's requests can be met like that.  It has to be a bit more overt than "I didn't get the teacher we wanted"... that has to have happened a lot.   But, if basically all cross-race matches were "denied", then, you have a pretty damning case.


You libs are really reading too much into this.  I've seen the form the parents were given to choose their teachers and they're completely innoculous and innoccent.   You didn't even get to choose your exactly classmates or teachers.  The choices were simpily what skin color your kid was and if you wanted your child to have any n******s in the class.  That's all, nothing racist.

What's your problem, I mean really.
 
2013-08-21 11:20:25 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Vectron: Why is this a bad thing?

Separate is not equal. Fourteenth Amendment. Civil Rights Act. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Brownbeckistan.


How about if it is voluntary?
 
2013-08-21 11:20:29 PM

Lsherm: Riiiiiight.


Yeah, there aren't any bad teachers. The NEA told me so!
 
2013-08-21 11:21:45 PM

Satanic_Hamster: if you wanted your child to have any n******s in the class.


You are going to hell.
 
2013-08-21 11:22:01 PM

Vectron: How about if it is voluntary?


Sounds like it wasn't in some cases.
 
2013-08-21 11:22:23 PM
Overcome your fears or weaknesses or prejudices or whatever it is that causes you to do this, you silly southerners. You're missing out on a lot of what makes life rich and wonderful.
 
2013-08-21 11:23:50 PM

Pacfanweb: Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.


Which is exactly what the people who created this policy wanted to happen.
 
2013-08-21 11:24:03 PM

Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.

Riiiiiight.


Exactly right.  Most teachers are hard working, dedicated, well-trained professionals.  There are some bad apples as in any profession, but they aren't in any way shape or form the rule.

Given the low salaries that most teachers earn (and save your stories about the ridiculous outliers that the anti-union crowd likes to dredge up, they're just that, ridiculous outliers not in any way representative of the whole) and the very large amount of work it takes to get that salary, there are much easier professions for slackers to earn their livings in.
 
2013-08-21 11:24:23 PM

Pacfanweb: Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.


Probably because they, or someone in their family (civil rights "movement" wasn't that long ago) was directly affected by the inbred, backwards, morans who get drunk or high on "religion", gang up with their buddies and do shiat they wouldn't do in front of their mother.

Remember the "experiment" one of the networks did not too long after 9/11 by sending someone dressed in tradition Arab garb to one of the NASCAR races at Talladega? Absolutely nothing happened. Treated the same as everyone else at a crowded event. Not even a holler from "someone in the crowd".
 
2013-08-21 11:24:32 PM
 
2013-08-21 11:25:32 PM
Meh, My parents didn't care who was in my classes while I was in elementary school and I didn't care who was in my daughter's classes while she was in elementary school.  Only thing I really cared about was that whoever was in my daughter's classes that they at the very least not be disruptive.
 
2013-08-21 11:26:12 PM
 
2013-08-21 11:27:49 PM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


You realize you can join the NAACP without any questionnaire regarding your color/ethnicity right? I can't speak to others on that list but the NAACP. You pay your dues, you get a membership card.

Money is almost the only color all of these groups care much about.
 
2013-08-21 11:28:00 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.

Riiiiiight.

Exactly right.  Most teachers are hard working, dedicated, well-trained professionals.  There are some bad apples as in any profession, but they aren't in any way shape or form the rule.

Given the low salaries that most teachers earn (and save your stories about the ridiculous outliers that the anti-union crowd likes to dredge up, they're just that, ridiculous outliers not in any way representative of the whole) and the very large amount of work it takes to get that salary, there are much easier professions for slackers to earn their livings in.


Unionized public school teachers have a lower firing rate than any other profession.

It's not that there aren't good teachers, it's that it's impossible to fire bad ones, so they stick around.
 
2013-08-21 11:28:06 PM

God-is-a-Taco: It's a human thing, not a Southern thing.
Every race does it, every society does it, and we have always done it.


Yet people still can't accept that this is the norm. Humans have always been tribal. Now, somehow, that's something to be ridiculed for by the "enlightened" among us.
 
2013-08-21 11:30:33 PM
School really is just like prison.
 
2013-08-21 11:32:32 PM

12349876: Pacfanweb: Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.

Which is exactly what the people who created this policy wanted to happen.


So they created the policy because they knew the black parents would segregate themselves and they wanted them to do that?

That's...racist? I'm honestly not sure, but I'm white so I feel guilty anyway.

I guess it's racist they wanted the classes to end up segregated, if that is true....but apparently so did the black parents since that's what they chose for their kids. Should I be offended here or not?
 
2013-08-21 11:33:31 PM
So black parents want their children to be taught by black teachers?

The article fails to explain the reasons.  Are black parents saying the black teachers aren't as good as the white teachers?

If only there were news sources which didn't pay Fark for greenlights that weren't complete and utter trolls.
 
2013-08-21 11:33:38 PM
Wow, the  Troy School District of Alabama is now representing all Southern parents?  Congratulations on demonstrating how much of a bigot you are while pointing out bigots.  Deserves the irony tag for submitter.
 
2013-08-21 11:34:07 PM

Vectron: demaL-demaL-yeH: Vectron: Why is this a bad thing?

Separate is not equal. Fourteenth Amendment. Civil Rights Act. Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Brownbeckistan.

How about if it is voluntary?


Well, that's different.

Let me see here:
Separate is still not equal.
Fourteenth Amendment is still the standard for equal treatment of persons.
Civil Rights Act is still the law of the land.
Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Brownbeckistan is settled law.
 
2013-08-21 11:34:08 PM

Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.

Riiiiiight.

Exactly right.  Most teachers are hard working, dedicated, well-trained professionals.  There are some bad apples as in any profession, but they aren't in any way shape or form the rule.

Given the low salaries that most teachers earn (and save your stories about the ridiculous outliers that the anti-union crowd likes to dredge up, they're just that, ridiculous outliers not in any way representative of the whole) and the very large amount of work it takes to get that salary, there are much easier professions for slackers to earn their livings in.

Unionized public school teachers have a lower firing rate than any other profession.

It's not that there aren't good teachers, it's that it's impossible to fire bad ones, so they stick around.


Being able to enjoy a now all-to-uncommon level of job security does not mean that that there is a higher level of bad teachers.  In most districts it takes several years before you can earn tenure, so the bad ones are eliminated fairly early on.  It's not a profession that tends to draw those unwilling to work.  It requires a degree, continuing education, and a lot of work for not a lot of money.

Again, sure, there are some bad apples, but that's true of any job.  Those don't in any way represent the profession as a whole.
 
2013-08-21 11:34:32 PM

js34603: 12349876: Pacfanweb: Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.

Which is exactly what the people who created this policy wanted to happen.

So they created the policy because they knew the black parents would segregate themselves and they wanted them to do that?

That's...racist? I'm honestly not sure, but I'm white so I feel guilty anyway.

I guess it's racist they wanted the classes to end up segregated, if that is true....but apparently so did the black parents since that's what they chose for their kids. Should I be offended here or not?


The trickiest kind of racist,
 
2013-08-21 11:35:37 PM
The problem with the South is that it's blacks and whites.  A lot more other non-whites go to cities in the north. NYC has so many other groups for white people to hate that though blacks have problems, it's diluted. No, I am being totally serious. I think this is a central difference.
 
2013-08-21 11:36:19 PM
"Southern"?

You're telling me white kids in the fancy north have mostly black friends and all black favorite teachers?
 
2013-08-21 11:37:29 PM
Actually, if you research it for the last 20 years many african americans are moving back to the south from the north because of better schools, neighborhoods, and the ability to live in a more "black" place.

Hell, sixty minutes did a special on it almost ten years back.

I am multicultural.  Black, Colombian, Italian and jewish ancestry.  And the only time anyone ever asked me about the ethnic background was up north on the west coast.

1. West Coast"you sure are light skinned for a mexican."  I learned that if you are latino in Cali, you are a beaner by default.
2. Philadelphia " yo i heard you kicking that spanish bro, i like those boricuas."
 
2013-08-21 11:38:05 PM
Diversity is good.  Forcing diversity on people is bad.  Imposing your ideals on others is simply fascism.

Educating people about the value of diversity and letting them make free-will decisions to live together is good.  Making laws to punish people who don't support your view of diversity is bad.

Some people like to be with others similar to them.  That's why there are white neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, vietnamese neighborhoods, gay neighborhoods, china town, little italy, etc.

Some people like to live in a neighborhood with lots of cultural and racial diversity.

Both of these types of people are just ok exactly the way they are.  They don't need communist control over their decisions.

Nobody wants their life controlled by power-hungry, control freak, hypocrite liberals.  Please go away (like to North Korea or something) and leave normal people to live their lives in freedom.
 
2013-08-21 11:38:41 PM

trappedspirit: Wow, the  Troy School District of Alabama is now representing all Southern parents?  Congratulations on demonstrating how much of a bigot you are while pointing out bigots.  Deserves the irony tag for submitter.



actually as someone who lived in Selma, Alabama, the segration for the last decade, is totally african american.
 
2013-08-21 11:38:42 PM

Dwindle: "Southern"?

You're telling me white kids in the fancy north have mostly black friends and all black favorite teachers?


Which of course isn't at all what the article says.  Students in most districts have a mix of white, black, Hispanic, and (if there's enough of them around) Asian classmates.  The mix may not be equal, because the population of each demographic group may not be equal in the district, but it isn't completely segregated either.

Normal students will have friends of multiple races and teachers of multiple races.
 
2013-08-21 11:39:03 PM
a more informative article on the issue:

http://www.npr.org/2013/08/19/213510484/suit-in-alabama-seeks-to-sto p- school-choice-law

Opposing Views makes the Daily Mail seem like the NY Times.
 
2013-08-21 11:39:19 PM
Is this the thread where white people gripe about the racial prejudice and indignity they have suffered over many decades?

/ Yes
// Yes it is
 
2013-08-21 11:40:22 PM
It's not unique to the south. When given a choice people will segregate. I remember back in high school (Here in WA St) you usually went to school assemblies with whatever class you were in when the assembly was called. They decided not to implement this rule for the Martin Luther King Jr. day assembly, and free seating was allowed. What happened? One side of the auditorium was black, one side was white.

As a dumb teenager I found it amusing. As a dumb adult I find it depressing.
 
2013-08-21 11:40:51 PM

garron: Diversity is good.  Forcing diversity on people is bad.  Imposing your ideals on others is simply fascism.

Educating people about the value of diversity and letting them make free-will decisions to live together is good.  Making laws to punish people who don't support your view of diversity is bad.

Some people like to be with others similar to them.  That's why there are white neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, vietnamese neighborhoods, gay neighborhoods, china town, little italy, etc.

Some people like to live in a neighborhood with lots of cultural and racial diversity.

Both of these types of people are just ok exactly the way they are.  They don't need communist control over their decisions.

Nobody wants their life controlled by power-hungry, control freak, hypocrite liberals.  Please go away (like to North Korea or something) and leave normal people to live their lives in freedom.


2/10. You might be able to hook somebody because Texas.
 
2013-08-21 11:43:37 PM
I was born and raised in the South, and my parents made sure I had play mates of all races in the 70s.  Although my parents were college educated and my father was in the Navy.

/anecdotal evidence is anecdotal
 
2013-08-21 11:43:57 PM

jaytkay: Is this the thread where white people gripe about the racial prejudice and indignity they have suffered over many decades?

/ Yes
// Yes it is


Is it?

Point to an example of that.  Instead it seems like another thread where people point fingers at the South and claim it's racist while all the time ignoring the fact that it's not nearly as racist as where they're from.
 
2013-08-21 11:44:41 PM
DNRTFA. Kinda wish I could choose my kids classmates eliminating the ones with criminal records and those who can't pass a drug test (there's bunch of them). Years ago I was told "Pre-K will help your child with social skills". But what if your child is surrounded by former crack babies and stupid kids.
 
2013-08-21 11:47:03 PM

northguineahills: I was born and raised in the South, and my parents made sure I had play mates of all races in the 70s.  Although my parents were college educated and my father was in the Navy.

/anecdotal evidence is anecdotal


Wait, this sounds familiar . . .

img.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-21 11:48:26 PM
The white southerner hates black southerners because they are his closest competition.
 
2013-08-21 11:49:07 PM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


You forgot the Black Physicians Directory. Our skin color is important because we're all the same color inside.
 
2013-08-21 11:49:42 PM
Look, freedom of association is not an American value, ok? Nowhere is that right even mentioned. Forced integration doesn't cause any tensions or problems whatsoever.
 
2013-08-21 11:50:04 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.


images.nymag.com
 
2013-08-21 11:50:40 PM
It's a crap blog article written by a college kid.

It's not news...it's opposing views.   Herp derp
 
2013-08-21 11:51:24 PM
Fano:
[images.nymag.com image 850x850]

NYC?
 
2013-08-21 11:53:44 PM

theflatline: Actually, if you research it for the last 20 years many african americans are moving back to the south from the north because of better schools, neighborhoods, and the ability to live in a more "black" place.


A lot of them are going to Atlanta
 
2013-08-21 11:55:18 PM

edmo: The South hasn't changed.


But the Supreme Court has assured me that racism is over?!?
 
2013-08-21 11:55:57 PM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


You do know that the president of the NAACP is white, right?
 
2013-08-21 11:57:50 PM
I don't know if anybody has noticed or not, but overall,  black people and white people don't really hang out with each other much.
 
2013-08-21 11:59:49 PM

Vectron: Fano:
[images.nymag.com image 850x850]

NYC?


Yes indeed, from the thread we had the other day about segregation in cities in the Northeast.
 
2013-08-22 12:02:14 AM

untaken_name: Look, freedom of association is not an American value, ok? Nowhere is that right even mentioned. Forced integration doesn't cause any tensions or problems whatsoever.


Paging Mr. Crow. Mr. James Crow, please answer the zebra courtesy phone.
 
2013-08-22 12:04:24 AM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


Aww... Bless his heart.
 
2013-08-22 12:04:47 AM

UHC2005: OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.

You do know that the president of the NAACP is white, right?


You do know he's actually mixed race, right?  Not that anyone's point was really that membership to the NAACP is exclusive to, er, CP, but rather that its mission is.
 
2013-08-22 12:05:27 AM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


I guess you fail to realize that the NAACP was founded by Whites, huh?  BET is actually Black Entertainment Television which is owned by Viacom and a sister station of MTV now.  Almost every other organization you list came to fruition because the general associations would not allow minority members to join their groups.  So, using the "free-market" ideals that are espoused and adored by American conservatives, Blacks and others simply started their own organizations to fulfill a demand that was not being met by White groups.

If you want to see those types of organizations disappear, then all you have to do is meet the demand before a "Black" group forms to meet it for you.
 
2013-08-22 12:06:39 AM
Classes should be segregated... by academic ability. Parental choice? WTF?
 
2013-08-22 12:07:00 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Lsherm: TuteTibiImperes: Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.

Riiiiiight.

Exactly right.  Most teachers are hard working, dedicated, well-trained professionals.  There are some bad apples as in any profession, but they aren't in any way shape or form the rule.

Given the low salaries that most teachers earn (and save your stories about the ridiculous outliers that the anti-union crowd likes to dredge up, they're just that, ridiculous outliers not in any way representative of the whole) and the very large amount of work it takes to get that salary, there are much easier professions for slackers to earn their livings in.

Unionized public school teachers have a lower firing rate than any other profession.

It's not that there aren't good teachers, it's that it's impossible to fire bad ones, so they stick around.

Being able to enjoy a now all-to-uncommon level of job security does not mean that that there is a higher level of bad teachers.  In most districts it takes several years before you can earn tenure, so the bad ones are eliminated fairly early on.  It's not a profession that tends to draw those unwilling to work.  It requires a degree, continuing education, and a lot of work for not a lot of money.

Again, sure, there are some bad apples, but that's true of any job.  Those don't in any way represent the profession as a whole.


I don't disagree, but it's one of the few professions that makes it impossible to fire people who give up once they reach the magical tenure stage.  Any profession that has less than a 1% turnover rate due to termination either doesn't evaluate itself honestly or has blocks in place to make sure that bad employees cannot be removed.  Doctors work hard, too, and they are 500 times more likely (really) to not only be fired, but to have their licenses revoked, than a public school teacher.  It is an industry with very little accountability after the first few years.
 
2013-08-22 12:10:30 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.


64 civil rights act

by party and region

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7-87 (7-93%)
Southern Republicans: 0-10 (0-100%)

Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94-6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85-15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1-20 (5-95%) (only Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)
Southern Republicans: 0-1 (0-100%) (John Tower of Texas)
Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98-2%) (only Robert Byrd of West Virginia voted against)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84-16%)


BOTH SIDES ARE BAD!!!

Fuking Republicans.
 
2013-08-22 12:11:52 AM

slayer199: So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?


Having grown up In nearby Covington County and knowing that there is a amazingly segregated State University in Troy.

This.
 Black parents chose non-caucasian classrooms and teachers.

I live in NJ now. There is way more forced segregation here than where I grew up.
 
2013-08-22 12:14:19 AM

impaler: Debeo Summa Credo: This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.

64 civil rights act

by party and region

Note: "Southern", as used in this section, refers to members of Congress from the eleven states that made up the Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. "Northern" refers to members from the other 39 states, regardless of the geographic location of those states.

The original House version:

Southern Democrats: 7-87 (7-93%)
Southern Republicans: 0-10 (0-100%)

Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94-6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85-15%)

The Senate version:

Southern Democrats: 1-20 (5-95%) (only Ralph Yarborough of Texas voted in favor)
Southern Republicans: 0-1 (0-100%) (John Tower of Texas)
Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98-2%) (only Robert Byrd of West Virginia voted against)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84-16%)


BOTH SIDES ARE BAD!!!

Fuking Republicans.


Thanks for pointing this out.  We should vote those bastards out of office.  Where's my voter ID card?
 
2013-08-22 12:15:06 AM

Teufel Ritter: northguineahills: I was born and raised in the South, and my parents made sure I had play mates of all races in the 70s.  Although my parents were college educated and my father was in the Navy.

/anecdotal evidence is anecdotal

Wait, this sounds familiar . . .

[img.photobucket.com image 320x173]


larfs all around!
 
2013-08-22 12:19:56 AM

catpuncher: Classes should be segregated... by academic ability. Parental choice? WTF?


But every measure of that ability is racially biased.  That is why NY changes its tests periodically to try and find a test that places students into advanced classes at a rate that approximates the racial mix of the city.  To date, this has failed.  Asians and whites excel, Hispanics and blacks fall behind.  It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.
 
2013-08-22 12:21:11 AM

impaler: 64 civil rights act


You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!
 
2013-08-22 12:21:20 AM
Yes please:

Thanks for pointing this out.  We should vote those bastards out of office.  Where's my voter ID card?

You think you'll be allowed to vote against the Republicans? Isn't that precious
 
2013-08-22 12:23:18 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: The problem with the South is that it's blacks and whites.  A lot more other non-whites go to cities in the north. NYC has so many other groups for white people to hate that though blacks have problems, it's diluted. No, I am being totally serious. I think this is a central difference.


never been to the south have you

we have a HUGE Asian population, alot of south-Vietnam expats came here after the war due to the similar environment, large number of military bases, and (as far as the coast goes) an already existing "Fisherman" culture
 
2013-08-22 12:24:11 AM

anuran: Yes please:

Thanks for pointing this out.  We should vote those bastards out of office.  Where's my voter ID card?

You think you'll be allowed to vote against the Republicans? Isn't that precious


Well over 90% of them are dead, so I can't vote for them in good conscience.  Not that I'm a Deather.
 
2013-08-22 12:26:06 AM

jaytkay: impaler: 64 civil rights act

You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!


lets act like the GOP and DEMs are in anyway simular to how they where in '64, or even '74. '84, or '94
 
2013-08-22 12:27:25 AM

jaytkay: impaler: 64 civil rights act

You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!


www.outsidethebeltway.com
 
2013-08-22 12:30:11 AM

jaytkay: impaler: 64 civil rights act

You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!


Well that's a very interesting question over the past 40 years the center had moved to the left and the whole liberal/conservative ideological split with party affiliation was not as pronounced before the zombie administration from 1980-88
 
2013-08-22 12:32:34 AM

thenumber5: PC LOAD LETTER: The problem with the South is that it's blacks and whites.  A lot more other non-whites go to cities in the north. NYC has so many other groups for white people to hate that though blacks have problems, it's diluted. No, I am being totally serious. I think this is a central difference.

never been to the south have you

we have a HUGE Asian population, alot of south-Vietnam expats came here after the war due to the similar environment, large number of military bases, and (as far as the coast goes) an already existing "Fisherman" culture


Memphis for some reason has a large "Little Saigon."
 
2013-08-22 12:33:35 AM

thenumber5: never been to the south have you we have a HUGE Asian population


No, you don't.

Percent Asian population
Georgia 3.5%
Alabama 1.2%    
Florida 2.7%    
South Carolina 0.1%
Texas 0.1%
Louisiana 1.7%
Mississippi 0.9%

It surprises me how many people think "my neighborhood" equals "the universe".

/ Well, not surprising in states with historically low levels of education
 
2013-08-22 12:35:01 AM
Long Island is one of the most segregated places in the entire US.  Actually, I bet that most of the population in the south has come from else where since the 1960's.  Either from up north or from over seas.  Gee, Louisiana's governor is first generation Indian.  Those racists bastards.
 
2013-08-22 12:35:25 AM

impaler: jaytkay: impaler: 64 civil rights act

You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!

[www.outsidethebeltway.com image 432x272]


Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

/Out of context graph is out of context.
//OMG I got to do a slashie
 
2013-08-22 12:39:20 AM

ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?
 
2013-08-22 12:41:33 AM

impaler: [www.outsidethebeltway.com image 432x272]


You sound really well informed.

Please tell us how that graph describes southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.
 
2013-08-22 12:42:25 AM

Teufel Ritter: catpuncher: Classes should be segregated... by academic ability. Parental choice? WTF?

But every measure of that ability is racially biased.  That is why NY changes its tests periodically to try and find a test that places students into advanced classes at a rate that approximates the racial mix of the city.  To date, this has failed.  Asians and whites excel, Hispanics and blacks fall behind.  It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.


Sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
 
2013-08-22 12:44:08 AM

Mock26: If I remember correctly UCLA allows for segregated graduation ceremonies, so this is just prepping the kids for life at a major university.


If true, that is terrible.
 
2013-08-22 12:44:44 AM

Teufel Ritter: catpuncher: Classes should be segregated... by academic ability. Parental choice? WTF?

But every measure of that ability is racially biased.  That is why NY changes its tests periodically to try and find a test that places students into advanced classes at a rate that approximates the racial mix of the city.  To date, this has failed.  Asians and whites excel, Hispanics and blacks fall behind.  It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.


I'm willing to bet that if they normalized those who excelled based on income levels of the students' families you'd see that the results are statistically accurate (i.e. a larger percentage of white and Asian families are well off compared to black and Hispanic families).
 
2013-08-22 12:45:19 AM

impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?


No, I'm not as stupid as a moron that thinks a representative democracy is the same as a democracy.
 
2013-08-22 12:46:06 AM

ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.


Seriously, this is such a retarded non-sequitur, only a Republican could come up with it. It's literally predicated on the fact that the northerners and southerners. And if the proposition that people will be inclined to vote for someone from their region, it benefits the Democrats to run a southern Democrat to fool the moronic southern Republicans.

Fuking Republicans. Ignorant as shat.
 
2013-08-22 12:47:41 AM

ThisIsntMe: impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?

No, I'm not as stupid as a moron that thinks a democracy is the same as a representative democracy.

/Sry, 1 too many martinis at the Harrelson's.
//Their son is going to Yale , you know.

 
2013-08-22 12:48:19 AM

jaytkay: Please tell us how that graph describes southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.


In 64 they were Democrats, and as Johnson said after the civil rights act, "we lost the South for a generation."

What's your point?

eurweb.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com
 
2013-08-22 12:50:01 AM

ThisIsntMe: impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?

No, I'm not as stupid as a moron that thinks a representative democracy is the same as a democracy.


Neither do I. Do you think you're being clever? Because you're stupid if you are.
 
2013-08-22 12:50:44 AM

impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Seriously, this is such a retarded non-sequitur, only a Republican could come up with it. It's literally predicated on the fact that the northerners and southerners. And if the proposition that people will be inclined to vote for someone from their region, it benefits the Democrats to run a southern Democrat to fool the moronic southern Republicans.

Fuking Republicans. Ignorant as shat.


static.comicvine.com
 
2013-08-22 12:50:46 AM
Sherman burnt down my daddy's barn just last week.
 
2013-08-22 12:52:28 AM

ThisIsntMe: impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?

No, I'm not as stupid as a moron that thinks a representative democracy is the same as a democracy.


And yes you are fuking stupid if you think the inability to get the popular vote makes it hard for you to win elections, and that it doesn't mean anything.

Even the "we should be more conservative" morons pointed to that fact as a concern.

Jesus.
 
2013-08-22 12:52:47 AM

Pacfanweb: Funny how people are piling on white folks, but fail to see that the all-black classes were that way because THEIR parents wanted it that way.


That. In my freshman English class a few years back, one of our coursebooks was a handy little guide on multicultural education. It had some great ideas, and it was honestly fun, brainstorming ideas on how to help younger kids in the classroom. Right up until we hit an essay going on about how colored children would benefit most from teachers who "look like them" because they're the only ones who can "understand their culture."
 
2013-08-22 12:53:37 AM

impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Seriously, this is such a retarded non-sequitur, only a Republican could come up with it. It's literally predicated on the fact that the northerners and southerners. And if the proposition that people will be inclined to vote for someone from their region, it benefits the Democrats to run a southern Democrat to fool the moronic southern Republicans.

Fuking Republicans. Ignorant as shat.


Keep insulting others' intelligence as much as you like, but I feel compelled to point out that the bolded parts above don't meet the basic requirements to qualify as English sentences.
 
2013-08-22 12:53:55 AM

ParagonComplex: Dudes, it's Alabama. A LA BA MA. It is not a paragon of racial tolerance. What did you expect? It is the most redneck state in the nation. Alabama and Georgia have knockdown drag-out fights over who is the most redneck and racist. This is not at all surprising.


Hmm I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest here, plain stupid or DNRTFA but the article is implying that the black parents are the racist ones here wanting their kids segregated from the white students.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:41 AM

ThisIsntMe: impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Seriously, this is such a retarded non-sequitur, only a Republican could come up with it. It's literally predicated on the fact that the northerners and southerners will just vote based on region. And if the proposition that people will be inclined to vote for someone from their region, it benefits the Democrats to run a southern Democrat to fool the moronic southern Republicans.

Fuking Republicans. Ignorant as shat.

[static.comicvine.com image 750x600]



Sorry, I'm a little drunk.

If you believe people vote only on their region, you're a fuking idiot.
 
2013-08-22 12:54:48 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Teufel Ritter: catpuncher: Classes should be segregated... by academic ability. Parental choice? WTF?

But every measure of that ability is racially biased.  That is why NY changes its tests periodically to try and find a test that places students into advanced classes at a rate that approximates the racial mix of the city.  To date, this has failed.  Asians and whites excel, Hispanics and blacks fall behind.  It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.

I'm willing to bet that if they normalized those who excelled based on income levels of the students' families you'd see that the results are statistically accurate (i.e. a larger percentage of white and Asian families are well off compared to black and Hispanic families).


I recall reading an article discussing the most recent overhaul of the NY testing system.  It focused on the never ending search to find a test that yielded results in line with the city's demographics.  I wish I could find a link to the article, but I cannot.

Anyway, the article mentioned that even the children of Asian immigrants (i.e., first generation Americans) and their parents took test prep more seriously than whites, Hispanics, and blacks.  These families were often very poor, but made sacrifices to make sure their children were educated.  (I think it helps that "American poor" is probably fairly decent living compared to some Asian countries' standard of living; parents don't feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak).

Now, I have no doubt that there is a strong negative correlation between income and test scores, but I am not convinced it is causation.  At the very least, I think there are other contributing variables at play.  I think a large part of it is cultural, and I don't know how to change the underperforming cultures to improve the situation.  There is certainly no easy fix.

Again, sorry I cannot find the article.
 
2013-08-22 12:56:06 AM

Yes please: Keep insulting others' intelligence as much as you like, but I feel compelled to point out that the bolded parts above don't meet the basic requirements to qualify as English sentences.


I corrected it.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:09 AM

impaler: Yes please: Keep insulting others' intelligence as much as you like, but I feel compelled to point out that the bolded parts above don't meet the basic requirements to qualify as English sentences.

I corrected it.


You certainly may think you did.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:57 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.


Um..so lemme get this straight: the black parents also wanted black teachers, but only the white people were racist.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:03 AM

Yes please: You certainly may think you did.


No, I did. Rapidly scanning text you can miss stuff, but when you don't, it's easy to correct.
 
2013-08-22 01:01:38 AM

thenumber5: PC LOAD LETTER: The problem with the South is that it's blacks and whites.  A lot more other non-whites go to cities in the north. NYC has so many other groups for white people to hate that though blacks have problems, it's diluted. No, I am being totally serious. I think this is a central difference.

never been to the south have you

we have a HUGE Asian population, alot of south-Vietnam expats came here after the war due to the similar environment, large number of military bases, and (as far as the coast goes) an already existing "Fisherman" culture


I'm not sure what your definition of HUGE is but if you're talking the rare ocasional Asian inside a car then I guess you're right. I was in MS not too long ago and had a craving for Chinese food.. could not find one for the longest time. Also made a point to look for oriental looking people and did not see any either until I finally found a hole in a wall hinese resutarant and those were the only Asians I saw in probably a 100 mile radius.
 
2013-08-22 01:02:09 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: Debeo Summa Credo: Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.

Um..so lemme get this straight: the black parents also wanted black teachers, but only the white people were racist.


What about that doesn't make sense?
 
2013-08-22 01:03:14 AM

SuperNinjaToad: I finally found a hole in a wall hinese resutarant and those were the only Asians I saw in probably a 100 mile radius.


I love hinesian cuisine.
 
2013-08-22 01:04:22 AM

Teufel Ritter: The more you eat the more you fart: Debeo Summa Credo: Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

This. Everyone does this, north or south, red or blue.

Um..so lemme get this straight: the black parents also wanted black teachers, but only the white people were racist.

What about that doesn't make sense?


Nice try.
 
2013-08-22 01:06:16 AM

impaler: SuperNinjaToad: I finally found a hole in a wall hinese resutarant and those were the only Asians I saw in probably a 100 mile radius.

I love hinesian cuisine.


So is THAT where the naked ladies dance, and can you see it all through the hole in the wall?

/thought it was France.
 
2013-08-22 01:09:59 AM

impaler: SuperNinjaToad: I finally found a hole in a wall hinese resutarant and those were the only Asians I saw in probably a 100 mile radius.

I love hinesian cuisine.


I had Hinesian once. Or at least that where she said she was from.

/Whatever
 
2013-08-22 01:11:43 AM

impaler: Yes please: You certainly may think you did.

No, I did. Rapidly scanning text you can miss stuff, but when you don't, it's easy to correct.


It's definitely not fixed.  First of all, you didn't do anything to the second part.  And while the first one is at least now a sentence, here's a better way to express what you were apparently trying to say:

It's predicated on the notion that some northerners and southerners will vote based solely on region.

That's still not a great sentence, but at least it's an improvement.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:26 AM

Yes please: It's definitely not fixed. First of all, you didn't do anything to the second part. And while the first one is at least now a sentence, here's a better way to express what you were apparently trying to say:

It's predicated on the notion that some northerners and southerners will vote based solely on region.

That's still not a great sentence, but at least it's an improvement.


So you knew what I was saying. I deem that "fixed."

QED
 
2013-08-22 01:15:49 AM

impaler: ThisIsntMe: Amazing if it were true. Just doesn't explain all the republican Presidents and the other two Dems before Obama being Southern does it.

Really? You're that stupid? You are aware that the entire country votes for the president right?

Did you know Republicans have won the popular vote for the president ONCE since 88?


In 2004, when everyfarkingbody knew just how incredibly stupid, incompetent, corrupt, and farcical his administration was.
/America has a deep and wide masochistic streak when people are afraid.
 
2013-08-22 01:17:46 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: untaken_name: Look, freedom of association is not an American value, ok? Nowhere is that right even mentioned. Forced integration doesn't cause any tensions or problems whatsoever.

Paging Mr. Crow. Mr. James Crow, please answer the zebra courtesy phone.


Right, because voluntary segregation through freedom of association is exactly the same as enforced segregation by law. Oh wait, no, it's completely different. Nice attempt to discredit me instead of actually say something yourself, btw. Excellent form.
 
2013-08-22 01:18:56 AM

impaler: Yes please: It's definitely not fixed. First of all, you didn't do anything to the second part. And while the first one is at least now a sentence, here's a better way to express what you were apparently trying to say:

It's predicated on the notion that some northerners and southerners will vote based solely on region.

That's still not a great sentence, but at least it's an improvement.

So you knew what I was saying. I deem that "fixed."

QED


He said, before disappearing in a puff of logic.
 
2013-08-22 01:19:36 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: In 2004, when everyfarkingbody knew just how incredibly stupid, incompetent, corrupt, and farcical his administration was.
/America has a deep and wide masochistic streak when people are afraid.


Home of the brave.

Some people like to say "freedom isn't free." And yet they're perfectly content to believe exceptionalism is.
 
2013-08-22 01:23:29 AM

Teufel Ritter: QED

He said, before disappearing in a puff of logic.


Not true. This is fark, so by declaring QED, I've won the thread. Granted it's not fair, but like I mentioned earlier, this is fark.

Don't make me QED a second time.
 
2013-08-22 01:26:56 AM

impaler: Teufel Ritter: QED

He said, before disappearing in a puff of logic.

Not true. This is fark, so by declaring QED, I've won the thread. Granted it's not fair, but like I mentioned earlier, this is fark.

Don't make me QED a second time.


Oh I know, good sir.  I was simply alluding to Hitchhiker's Guide.
 
2013-08-22 01:30:49 AM

Teufel Ritter: Oh I know, good sir. I was simply alluding to Hitchhiker's Guide.


Well then, 42 and carry on.
 
2013-08-22 01:37:00 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: Oh wait, no, it's completely different.


I never heard of that.

Why would it not surprise me if that's exactly where the GOP insistence for public vouchers comes from?
 
2013-08-22 01:37:50 AM

impaler: Don't make me QED a second time.


I have QED'd the post . . . pray I do not QED it any further . . .

www.mememaker.net
 
2013-08-22 01:41:37 AM
www.world-free-printable-flags.com
 
2013-08-22 01:45:13 AM

Mock26: If I remember correctly UCLA allows for segregated graduation ceremonies, so this is just prepping the kids for life at a major university.



I was just going to snark , but since my wife is a Bruin I decided to spend a full 30 seconds googling this. Turns out this was a talking point in the echo chamber in 2007, but is untrue - surprise! Everybody has the same commencement. Then you get your actual physical degree at your department. There are also various Student association celebrations, which aren't graduation ceremonies.
http://www.commencement.ucla.edu/schedule.cfm
 
2013-08-22 01:45:58 AM

HotWingAgenda: impaler: Don't make me QED a second time.

I have QED'd the post . . . pray I do not QED it any further . . .

[www.mememaker.net image 592x400]


More impressive than what I was thinking.

lh3.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-08-22 01:48:21 AM
Lsherm:

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I was an early proponent of school choice.  It made sense to a degree - if a school had a particular program you were interested in, if you were going to be sent to a different high school than the classmates you'd developed as friends in elementary or middle school, or if the district lines were redrawn such that you'd be sent to a different school than your older siblings had attended and you wanted to choice into a different school to be with your friends, have the teachers your siblings had had, or be able to take part in a particular program, it made sense.

I've since changed my mind because I've seen the damage it does when it runs rampant, especially when combined with charter schools.  The district that I attended through middle and high school was large and covered both wealthy suburban and poor urban areas.  When I attended high school my school was probably 60/40 white/black, and probably fairly similar in terms of middle class vs poor (not that that was purely on racial lines).  It was a good school, with great programs, great teachers, and an excellent music program which I took full advantage of.

Since then the district has opened several charter schools and allowed school choice to run amok.  The end result has been that the parents who care have all choiced their kids into one of the three high schools in the district, or sent them to the charter schools.  The other two high schools have thus experienced a 'brain drain' or more accurately an affluence drain, and are now mostly attended by students whose families don't really give a darn.

The charter schools and the one school that has a disproportionately high middle class or wealthier enrollment are scoring high on the state assessments and doing good things, while the other schools, who have to take everyone, are falling apart.

On one hand I understand that parents want their kids to have the best chance, so that's why they choice them into the other schools.  On the other, it creates a cycle where certain schools end up destined to fail as they end up with only the kids who don't care or whose parents don't care, and since that's the student population there, there's not much parent outrage about fixing it, not that it could be done without their help anyway.

Disallowing choice and turning charter schools into general enrollment schools fed from the district feeder patterns would help redistribute the talent and the socioeconomic backgrounds of the students throughout the district.  The end result would be the currently failing schools getting more attention and help.
 
2013-08-22 01:57:13 AM

jaytkay: thenumber5: never been to the south have you we have a HUGE Asian population

No, you don't.

Percent Asian population
Georgia 3.5%
Alabama 1.2%    
Florida 2.7%    
South Carolina 0.1%
Texas 0.1%
Louisiana 1.7%
Mississippi 0.9%

It surprises me how many people think "my neighborhood" equals "the universe".

/ Well, not surprising in states with historically low levels of education


how about you step away from your Bias for a second, and look at the rest of the states

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states /a sian-population-percentage#map

once you get away from the North East Coast, and West coast. The south is in line population wise with most of the country

and hay lets check the Black population numbers

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states /b lack-population-percentage#map

Hum, Seems it is you yankees and Mid westerns who live in you lilly white utopia. and not us southern folk
 
2013-08-22 02:00:40 AM
TuteTibiImperes:

Disallowing choice and turning charter schools into general enrollment schools fed from the district feeder patterns would help redistribute the talent and the socioeconomic backgrounds of the students throughout the district.  The end result would be the currently failing schools getting more attention and help.
Haha, the "choice" folks WANT those schools to go in the dumpster.  Eventually they can wipe out the entire public school system and turn everything private so rich people can make more money.
 
2013-08-22 02:02:17 AM

thenumber5: once you get away from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west. The south is in line population wise with most of the countr


So you admit they don't have HUGE asian population numbers.

Which was the original point.

So what's your point?

Also, once you get away from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.
 
2013-08-22 02:09:40 AM

SuperNinjaToad: thenumber5: PC LOAD LETTER: The problem with the South is that it's blacks and whites.  A lot more other non-whites go to cities in the north. NYC has so many other groups for white people to hate that though blacks have problems, it's diluted. No, I am being totally serious. I think this is a central difference.

never been to the south have you

we have a HUGE Asian population, alot of south-Vietnam expats came here after the war due to the similar environment, large number of military bases, and (as far as the coast goes) an already existing "Fisherman" culture

I'm not sure what your definition of HUGE is but if you're talking the rare ocasional Asian inside a car then I guess you're right. I was in MS not too long ago and had a craving for Chinese food.. could not find one for the longest time. Also made a point to look for oriental looking people and did not see any either until I finally found a hole in a wall hinese resutarant and those were the only Asians I saw in probably a 100 mile radius.


i live in mississippi

a: All Asians are not Chinese
B: there are a half dozen Chinese places with in 5 miles of my house
C: We have a large enough Asian population, that there is a very well respected Buddhist temple in town
 
2013-08-22 02:15:04 AM

impaler: thenumber5: once you get away from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west. The south is in line population wise with most of the countr

So you admit they don't have HUGE asian population numbers.

Which was the original point.

So what's your point?

Also, once you get away from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.


i40.tinypic.com
 
2013-08-22 02:41:50 AM

untaken_name: demaL-demaL-yeH: untaken_name: Look, freedom of association is not an American value, ok? Nowhere is that right even mentioned. Forced integration doesn't cause any tensions or problems whatsoever.

Paging Mr. Crow. Mr. James Crow, please answer the zebra courtesy phone.

Right, because voluntary segregation through freedom of association is exactly the same as enforced segregation by law. Oh wait, no, it's completely different. Nice attempt to discredit me instead of actually say something yourself, btw. Excellent form.


The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly disagreed with you about that.
 
2013-08-22 02:50:36 AM

thenumber5: way from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.


3.bp.blogspot.com

Guess what else it used to say.
 
2013-08-22 02:54:29 AM

Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.


I heard a story from a very old relative about that. Seems when the urban kids (yes, they were mainly black) were bussed out to the local high school they tore up the school quite thoroughly. As soon as that happened all the families in the neighborhood (yes, they were mainly white) moved out almost immediately .No
 
2013-08-22 02:55:03 AM

cardex: jaytkay: impaler: 64 civil rights act

You sound really well informed.

Please tell us about southern white conservatives' party affiliation in 1964 compared to 2013.

That would be really interesting.

TIA!

Well that's a very interesting question over the past 40 years the center had moved to the left and the whole liberal/conservative ideological split with party affiliation was not as pronounced before the zombie administration from 1980-88


LOLWUT?
 
2013-08-22 03:15:58 AM

Teufel Ritter: It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.


There's no evidence that every race isn't as smart as the other races.  If you believe there is, you're a racist.

What there is evidence of is that poor kids with uninvolved parents fall behind in education regardless of their colour and natural aptitude.  This is mainly a poverty problem, not a race problem.  The simple fact is kids can't learn on an empty stomach, and mom isn't there to check up on their homework because she's working her third job.  Little Jimmy Bob from the trailer park isn't going to magically do better than little D'Anthony from South Central because he's white.
 
2013-08-22 03:20:54 AM
Sorry I'm late to the thread... it's the kids... I couldn't find a sitter!

Anyway...


BIRDS OF A FEATHER TEND TO FLOCK TOGETHER


/Are you shocked?
//Shocked??
///shocked???
 
2013-08-22 03:28:19 AM

Brosephus: OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.

I guess you fail to realize that the NAACP was founded by Whites, huh?  BET is actually Black Entertainment Television which is owned by Viacom and a sister station of MTV now.  Almost every other organization you list came to fruition because the general associations would not allow minority members to join their groups.  So, using the "free-market" ideals that are espoused and adored by American conservatives, Blacks and others simply started their own organizations to fulfill a demand that was not being met by White groups.

If you want to see those types of organizations disappear, then all you have to do is meet the demand before a "Black" group forms to meet it for you.


I think the point is less that BET is entertaining a targeted demographic with a shared cultural background and more that if you used "Miss White USA" and only white people are allowed to participate it's gonna be a problem. And it's perpetuating the problem as much as helping it.
 
2013-08-22 03:31:44 AM
There ARE two sides though, and here are the choices:

A> The white folk mostly pulled their white children from black classes.

B> The black folk pulled their black children from white classes.

The one that makes me lean to the second is that some white children were refused admittance with the blacks, hinting the 62% black community didn't want their crotchfruit mixed in with the white's crotchfruit. Anyone say otherwise?
 
2013-08-22 03:39:08 AM

if_i_really_have_to: Teufel Ritter: It's a shame, too, because every race is just as smart as the other races.

There's no evidence that every race isn't as smart as the other races.  If you believe there is, you're a racist.

What there is evidence of is that poor kids with uninvolved parents fall behind in education regardless of their colour and natural aptitude.  This is mainly a poverty problem, not a race problem.  The simple fact is kids can't learn on an empty stomach, and mom isn't there to check up on their homework because she's working her third job.  Little Jimmy Bob from the trailer park isn't going to magically do better than little D'Anthony from South Central because he's white.


I don't believe any child is naturally stupid. I believe lack of parenting is. And you are right, both sides have major parenting issues, though for a few not their fault. It's part "Lazy parent" and part "Afraid Parent," maybe even a little "Be a friend Parent." You can have fun with them, but you also need to discipline them in a controlled setting. Controlled being not in anger, not using a part of the body, and set number for the punishment. No more timeouts (they seldom work). Ground them, spank them, make them KNOW what they did was bad, and control the limits.

/grounding means confiscate everything they can have fun with too.
 
2013-08-22 03:47:14 AM

Lsherm: edmo: The South hasn't changed.

I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.


They aren't any different, but instead of a racially segregated school, you have "the city schools" and the "the suburbs".
 
2013-08-22 03:59:37 AM
img.fark.net
www.gislounge.com

Hey, you're pretty good! (other than you seem to think "upper midwest" = Canada)
 
2013-08-22 04:04:02 AM
I like to consider myself isolated but even the private school where I send my daughter does this.  My daughter is half Filipino and they admitted they put her in a class where the majority is Filipino.  I don't mind too much but It is what it is.  They told me she identifies with those children so who am I to separate her from her self chosen friends?  They put her in a class with her friends.  Rascism?  Best interests?  I don't know.  Even myself, I get along better with mostly Asians.  Not all!  I live in an area that is totally being remodeled year by year.  Most the local shops speak Tagalog first.  Fun, because I can understand and they don't know it.
 
2013-08-22 04:15:13 AM
and the south will fall again

/home sweet home
 
2013-08-22 04:24:02 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly disagreed with you about that.


The same Supreme Court that ruled that if a mall produces more tax revenue than your house, that meets eminent domain qualifications? Appeals to authority do not determine the truth or falsehood of any position. Care to try again, this time, maybe using some of your own thoughts?
 
2013-08-22 04:40:47 AM

garron: Diversity is good.  Forcing diversity on people is bad.  Imposing your ideals on others is simply fascism.

Educating people about the value of diversity and letting them make free-will decisions to live together is good.  Making laws to punish people who don't support your view of diversity is bad.


So refusing to seat black people at diners, use the same entrances at hotels, or use the drinking fountains is ok then?
 
2013-08-22 05:02:57 AM

Lsherm: AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?

Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.


My Southern parents always said Rochester, NY was the most racist place they ever lived.  Everybody lived in zones and you didn't ask to rent or buy outside your zone.
 
2013-08-22 05:03:14 AM

lohphat: garron: Diversity is good.  Forcing diversity on people is bad.  Imposing your ideals on others is simply fascism.

Educating people about the value of diversity and letting them make free-will decisions to live together is good.  Making laws to punish people who don't support your view of diversity is bad.


So refusing to seat black people at diners, use the same entrances at hotels, or use the drinking fountains is ok then?


Let's pretend that people still had the freedom of association here in the US. What would happen if someone opened a whites-only establishment? Well, either people will patronize it, or they won't. If they choose not to, then the business will fail and other business owners will not adopt that business model. Note that this option would also be open to anyone - say, a brony-only restaurant or a hipster-only sidewalk coffeeshop and ironic clothing store or a female-only gym...oh wait, that last one exists. You should probably get up on that high horse of yours and join Curves. I'm sure they won't have any problem with that if you just wave the spectre of Jim Crow at them. I wonder why people can't seem to grasp the difference between laws compelling segregation and the freedom of people to choose who they want to be around. Note that voluntary segregation is not a white-only phenomenon. Most people are most comfortable with people they share traits with. They don't have to be racial or sexual traits, but that doesn't mean those preferences are somehow invalid.
 
2013-08-22 06:34:57 AM

RexTalionis: FTA:The complaint further alleges that the school acted deliberately in segregating the races, even denying requests; "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."


Ah...missed that part.

Pretty stupid IMHO.  Kids don't care about race...kids will play with other kids.  Racism is a learned behavior.
 
2013-08-22 06:41:28 AM

TuteTibiImperes: I can't see this being a good idea.  Parents should be involved in their kids' schooling, but that involvement should be helping with homework, communicating with the teachers about student progress, following up with discipline from school, and attending parent/teacher conferences to get an idea about how their kids are progressing and any issues that they should be aware of.  Basically, parents need to trust the teachers' and school's judgment and reinforce that at home, and take a cooperative role, not a meddlesome one.

Now, in the rare cases where there's a legitimately bad teacher or they feel their kid is being underserved, sure, bring that up to the administration.  However, far too often parents go into snowflake mode instead of trust the judgment of the professionals at the school.


This makes entirely too much sense. You must be new here.
 
2013-08-22 06:52:23 AM

RexTalionis: slayer199: So in a school with a 62% black population, the black parents chose black teachers for their kids and the white parents chose white teachers for their kids so the classrooms were ultimately divided by the race of the teacher?  How is the school culpable (other than it's a stupid idea)?  Unless the school fudged the numbers, how is that forced segregation?

FTA:The complaint further alleges that the school acted deliberately in segregating the races, even denying requests; "In a few instances the Troy City School District disregarded requests by Caucasian parents to place their child with African-American teachers."


Classrooms have a limit to the number of kids per room. If your request comes in late. It might not be able to be fulfilled.

Math, how does it work?

The white minority is picking on us!
 
2013-08-22 07:29:21 AM
garron: ...Diversity is good.  Forcing diversity on people is bad.  Imposing your ideals on others is simply fascism.

That is not, in fact, the definition of fascism
 
2013-08-22 07:46:26 AM
The school is in a tough spot. They hate giving parents any power but they need the kids.
 
2013-08-22 07:46:27 AM
I dunno, I want to segrate my son from both of these groups, hence I do not live in Alabama. Given a choice though I would have him in a class full of Asians.
 
2013-08-22 07:56:34 AM
We do need integration. Black on black crime is so high they need some other group to hit on or it gets boring.
 
2013-08-22 08:14:54 AM
Let me get this straight. You mean that people tend to prefer to be with other people who are like them?

I'll alert the media, Sir.
 
2013-08-22 08:25:57 AM

Lsherm: edmo: The South hasn't changed.

I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.


Shhhhh, we're trying to be biased against the south, here.
 
2013-08-22 08:38:13 AM

God-is-a-Taco: It's a human thing, not a Southern thing.
Every race does it, every society does it, and we have always done it.


Yes, that's objectively true, of course. But people rarely confront objective reality. They are far more likely to live inside a bubble of fantasies, stories and fables that rattle around inside their own heads, and call them reality. They don't live in reality; they live in a Narrative Reality.

Narrative Reality is clearly written in a way that insists that straight, white, Southern, middle-class men of northwest European descent are evil incarnate, and that the racism of that particular demographic is somehow special or unique.

Every other type of person is afforded the basic human right of freedom of association, except straight, white, Southern, middle-class men of northwest European descent.
 
2013-08-22 08:41:39 AM

slayer199: Ah...missed that part.

Pretty stupid IMHO.  Kids don't care about race...kids will play with other kids.  Racism is a learned behavior.


I'm pretty sure it's not.  Kids visciously try to destroy anything that differers from what they identify with starting at about age 7 or 8.  Like the wrong music? You suck.  Eat the wrong food? You suck.  Wear the wrong clothes? You suck.  If you think that race isn't taken into account when kids form cliques (and they do), then you're blind.  And no one hangs out with the blind kid, they just sit him beside the parrot and tell him that "Jimmy is a little slow".
 
2013-08-22 08:50:36 AM

mike_d85: slayer199: Ah...missed that part.

Pretty stupid IMHO.  Kids don't care about race...kids will play with other kids.  Racism is a learned behavior.

I'm pretty sure it's not.  Kids visciously try to destroy anything that differers from what they identify with starting at about age 7 or 8.  Like the wrong music? You suck.  Eat the wrong food? You suck.  Wear the wrong clothes? You suck.  If you think that race isn't taken into account when kids form cliques (and they do), then you're blind.  And no one hangs out with the blind kid, they just sit him beside the parrot and tell him that "Jimmy is a little slow".


Music, food and clothes are cultural not racial.  Hating someone for being too brown or not brown enough is learned.
 
2013-08-22 09:01:30 AM

lewismarktwo: Music, food and clothes are cultural not racial.  Hating someone for being too brown or not brown enough is learned.


I honestly believe NOT hating someone for being too brown or not brown enough is learned.  I am pretty sure people identify with what they recognize as similar to themselves, regardless of what that factor is.  I think it it is the problem faced by internationally adopted children into families of different races.  They grow up knowing they're adoped and can't identify with the world around them and often require therapy.
 
2013-08-22 09:02:04 AM
This just in:

People are more comfortable being around other people who are like them.
 
2013-08-22 09:22:18 AM
As a white male, there are thousands of organizations that I am precluded from joining. Solely because of my race and/or gender.

However, any person that is a member of one of the organizations that I am precluded from joining, may also join any organization that I am allowed to join.

Example: A white male engineer may join the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, but discouraged from joining the National Society of Black Engineers.
A black male engineer may join both.
 
2013-08-22 09:29:52 AM

AirForceVet: Lsherm: I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I'm sorry, but where were you in the South during the 1960s? Gleam in your daddy's eye, perhaps?


Kids learn what they're taught and there were both black and white kids that I was in school with in MS(graduated high school in 1993) that hated the other race.  Looking back on it, I can see that they were likely learning it at home.  You just don't get those sorts of virulently racist opinions by the time some of them had them.

I don't remember the name of the song, but I know Ice-T had an anti-racism song about rejecting the racism of your parents that always reminded me of where I grew up.

When it comes to the south, the popular image is to lay the racism completely on the shoulders of white southerners.  While they carry the root of the problem, the problem is perpetuated by both black and white equally.  At least that's how it was when I was growing up in MS.
 
2013-08-22 09:33:28 AM

ParagonComplex: Alabama and Georgia have knockdown drag-out fights over who is the most redneck and racist.


Mississippi waits until the fight is over so it's easier to beat up the winner.
 
2013-08-22 09:51:55 AM

ParagonComplex: Dudes, it's Alabama. A LA BA MA. It is not a paragon of racial tolerance. What did you expect? It is the most redneck state in the nation. Alabama and Georgia have knockdown drag-out fights over who is the most redneck and racist. This is not at all surprising.


Wow, you just proved what an ignorant moron you are.  Thanks for that.
 
2013-08-22 10:05:39 AM

pedobearapproved: Brosephus: OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.

I guess you fail to realize that the NAACP was founded by Whites, huh?  BET is actually Black Entertainment Television which is owned by Viacom and a sister station of MTV now.  Almost every other organization you list came to fruition because the general associations would not allow minority members to join their groups.  So, using the "free-market" ideals that are espoused and adored by American conservatives, Blacks and others simply started their own organizations to fulfill a demand that was not being met by White groups.

If you want to see those types of organizations disappear, then all you have to do is meet the demand before a "Black" group forms to meet it for you.

I think the point is less that BET is entertaining a targeted demographic with a shared cultural background and more that if you used "Miss White USA" and only white people are allowed to participate it's gonna be a problem. And it's perpetuating the problem as much as helping it.


And I think you missed my point completely.  The Miss USA pageant historically WAS the "Miss White USA" as Blacks were not allowed to compete.  Hence the formation of the Black Miss USA pageant to give Black women an outlet to compete.  It's the same with most every other item that was listed there with the exception of the NAACP.  Look at the history of those organizations and how long they've been in existence.  They didn't just pop up when a Black man was elected president.  These organizations have been around for ages.  Most people didn't know of their existence until others started biatching about them being in existence.

It's the same as the argument about Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU).  They were started after the Civil War to educate the newly freed slaves.  They have historically provided a safe sanctuary for higher education when Blacks were forbidden to enroll in predominately White universities.  If you don't want a "Black" institution to form and/or thrive, then don't allow the opportunity for one to exist.  This country is farther along in race relations than it was decades ago when these groups were founded.  Most will probably end up obsolete in another 50-100 years, but it will take a long time to erase the 200+ years of racial animosity built up in this country.  That amount of history can not be reversed in 2-3 decades.
 
2013-08-22 10:07:53 AM
Southerners hate all blacks except the ones they know.

Northerners love all blacks except the ones they know.

/can't remember who said that
 
2013-08-22 10:10:56 AM

Tricky Chicken: As a white male, there are thousands of organizations that I am precluded from joining. Solely because of my race and/or gender.

However, any person that is a member of one of the organizations that I am precluded from joining, may also join any organization that I am allowed to join.

Example: A white male engineer may join the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, but discouraged from joining the National Society of Black Engineers.
A black male engineer may join both.


Being discouraged from joining is NOT the same thing as being denied from joining.

http://www.nsbe.org/Aboutus.aspx

"No person shall be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination in any NSBE program or activity available on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, creed, political belief, age, national origin, linguistic and language difference, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, height, weight, marital or familial status, or disability. "

That comes directly from their website.  That's just as big a myth as the one that White's can't attend HBCUs.
 
2013-08-22 10:18:08 AM

Brosephus: pedobearapproved: Brosephus: OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.

I guess you fail to realize that the NAACP was founded by Whites, huh?  BET is actually Black Entertainment Television which is owned by Viacom and a sister station of MTV now.  Almost every other organization you list came to fruition because the general associations would not allow minority members to join their groups.  So, using the "free-market" ideals that are espoused and adored by American conservatives, Blacks and others simply started their own organizations to fulfill a demand that was not being met by White groups.

If you want to see those types of organizations disappear, then all you have to do is meet the demand before a "Black" group forms to meet it for you.

I think the point is less that BET is entertaining a targeted demographic with a shared cultural background and more that if you used "Miss White USA" and only white people are allowed to participate it's gonna be a problem. And it's perpetuating the problem as much as helping it.

And I think you missed my point completely.  The Miss USA pageant historically WAS the "Miss White USA" as Blacks were not allowed to compete.  Hence the formation of the Black Miss USA pageant to give Black women an outlet to compete.  It's the same with most every other item that was listed there with the exception of the NAACP.  Look at the history of those organizations and how long they've been in existence.  They didn't just pop up when a Black man was elected president.  These organizations have been around for ages.  Most people didn't know of their existence until others started biatching about them being in existence.

It's the same as the argument about Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU).  They were started after the Civil War to educate the newly freed slaves.  They have historically provided a safe sanctuary for higher education when Blacks were forbidden to enroll in predominately White universities.  If you don't want a "Black" institution to form and/or thrive, then don't allow the opportunity for one to exist.  This country is farther along in race relations than it was decades ago when these groups were founded.  Most will probably end up obsolete in another 50-100 years, but it will take a long time to erase the 200+ years of racial animosity built up in this country.  That amount of history can not be reversed in 2-3 decades.


Because of the history!!!1!

I just love that "argument" -- somebody who died before I was born who lived somewhere I've never been did something bad (or maybe just something that's now unpopular) to someone else, who is also dead, means that you and your buddies now get to tell me what I can and can't do.

"History" is just another word for collective guilt and collective punishment.
 
2013-08-22 10:31:26 AM

phrawgh: thenumber5: way from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 375x500]

Guess what else it used to say.


"You'll like Clinton"
 
2013-08-22 10:37:44 AM
Phinn:

Because of the history!!!1!

I just love that "argument" -- somebody who died before I was born who lived somewhere I've never been did something bad (or maybe just something that's now unpopular) to someone else, who is also dead, means that you and your buddies now get to tell me what I can and can't do.

"History" is just another word for collective guilt and collective punishment.


I never said that anybody gets to tell you what you can or cannot do.  If you can show where I said so, please feel free to show your proof.  My point is that you can't get mad at the creation of organizations when they were created by free-market principles.  Had those people before you were born included Blacks in their professional organizations back then, you wouldn't have these groups today.

If you want to join any of those groups, you can do so at any time.  I am a member of the Prince Hall Affiliated Masonic organization.  It was founded by Blacks in the United States because of the exclusion of Blacks to existing Masonic lodges.  This group has been around since the founding of this country, yet there is no exclusivity for Black membership.  There are Whites and others who belong to this organization even though it was originally founded for Blacks.  There are White members of traditionally Black fraternities and sororities as there is no exclusive requirement to be Black.

People who think as you do completely miss the entire point of the origins of these groups.  They were founded, sometimes by White people, because the mainstream organizations refused Black membership.  Now that these organizations have their own histories and traditions, they are not simply going to disappear just because you want them to.  Unlike country clubs, these private organizations do not discriminate on membership applicants.  You and I cannot change the past.  We can only use the present to help shape the future.
 
2013-08-22 10:42:25 AM

Brosephus: Tricky Chicken: As a white male, there are thousands of organizations that I am precluded from joining. Solely because of my race and/or gender.

However, any person that is a member of one of the organizations that I am precluded from joining, may also join any organization that I am allowed to join.

Example: A white male engineer may join the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, but discouraged from joining the National Society of Black Engineers.
A black male engineer may join both.

Being discouraged from joining is NOT the same thing as being denied from joining.

http://www.nsbe.org/Aboutus.aspx

"No person shall be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination in any NSBE program or activity available on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, creed, political belief, age, national origin, linguistic and language difference, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, height, weight, marital or familial status, or disability. "

That comes directly from their website.  That's just as big a myth as the one that White's can't attend HBCUs.


And I'm sure that a white engineer would never be made to feel uncomfortable at meetings.  The policies do not need to be exclusionary.  The name of the organization itself is exclusionary.  The letterhead itself clearly implies that this is an organization of by and for black engineers. The non-exclusion statement from the website is purely there for leagal coverage.  Any white members they may have are just sitting at the Wolworths lunch counter not getting served.
 
2013-08-22 11:06:56 AM

OnlyM3: edmo

The South hasn't changed.
Yeah, it's all the south's fault.
* nclr (National Council of "The Race")
* naacp (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
* bet (Black Entertainment Awards)
* cbc (Congressional Black Caucus)
* aapc (African American Planning Commission)
* naba (National Association of Black Accountants)
* AASB (African American Speaker Bureau)
* bca ( Black Culinarians Alliance)
* Miss Black USA
* bwsma (Black Wall Street Merchants Association)

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. "

Keep the dream alive.


If you're a minority, you tend to cling to pride to stay sane. Yeah, it looks weird and elitist. No, it's really, really not.

/You might want to try reading some X-Men or another fictional work discussing bigotry, they tend to make it easier to put yourself in a minority's shoes for a while, and it makes more sense.
//I highly doubt I can explain the effects of prejudice very concisely without coffee.
 
2013-08-22 11:19:11 AM
I highly doubt I can explain the effects of prejudice very concisely without coffee.

fixed
 
2013-08-22 11:21:33 AM

Lsherm: edmo: The South hasn't changed.

I'm not sure the results would be any different if you allowed parents from any school district in the country to make the same choice.


The difference being that whoever suggested the program offering this choice in a state like, say, Massachusetts or California, would be summarily fired and likely shunned.
 
2013-08-22 11:42:32 AM

phrawgh: Guess what else it used to say.


"Arbeit Macht Frei"?
 
2013-08-22 11:43:19 AM
If you let ANY parents decide who their children will be classmates with, do you get: a) diversity in that they let their kids associate with loud poor unruly future thugs b) some diversity diversity in that they let their kids associate with loud poor unruly future thugs , or c) the same thing those fancy perfect Northern parents would choose if they knew wtf they were talking about?
 
2013-08-22 11:51:56 AM

mike_d85: lewismarktwo: Music, food and clothes are cultural not racial.  Hating someone for being too brown or not brown enough is learned.

I honestly believe NOT hating someone for being too brown or not brown enough is learned.  I am pretty sure people identify with what they recognize as similar to themselves, regardless of what that factor is.  I think it it is the problem faced by internationally adopted children into families of different races.  They grow up knowing they're adoped and can't identify with the world around them and often require therapy.


This is bullshiat.  You don't have kids do you?

Put a group of mix raced 4 year olds in a room full of toys.  The only primary segragation you'll see is male/female.  Later, when you ask them, they won't understand what you are talking about.

Kids really are color blind.

Now, take a kid from a different part of the world, that "talks funny" compared to your baseline, and that will be enough for them to segregate if there are other cliques to be formed.

Racism is learned.  Cultural differentiation is inherent.
 
2013-08-22 11:52:49 AM
ParagonComplex: Dudes, it's Alabama. A LA BA MA. It is not a paragon of racial tolerance. What did you expect? It is the most redneck state in the nation. Alabama and Georgia have knockdown drag-out fights over who is the most redneck and racist. This is not at all surprising.

You're a moron.  Since I'm sure you're referring to white-black relations, I'll point you to the following two keyed maps:

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states /b lack-population-percentage#map

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states /b lack-owned-firms-percent#map

GA's rate of black owned firms relative to black population is at least in line with the rest of the country.  Anecdotally, I can tell you as someone that meets with senior executives in firms all over the country, that there is a hell of a lot more black executives in GA than any other place I've been.
 
2013-08-22 12:03:28 PM
Zimmerman makes a better teacher.  Trayvon just lays there looking stupid, and he smells.


 
2013-08-22 12:15:51 PM

Brosephus: I never said that anybody gets to tell you what you can or cannot do. If you can show where I said so, please feel free to show your proof. My point is that you can't get mad at the creation of organizations when they were created by free-market principles. Had those people before you were born included Blacks in their professional organizations back then, you wouldn't have these groups today.

If you want to join any of those groups, you can do so at any time. I am a member of the Prince Hall Affiliated Masonic organization. It was founded by Blacks in the United States because of the exclusion of Blacks to existing Masonic lodges. This group has been around since the founding of this country, yet there is no exclusivity for Black membership. There are Whites and others who belong to this organization even though it was originally founded for Blacks. There are White members of traditionally Black fraternities and sororities as there is no exclusive requirement to be Black.

People who think as you do completely miss the entire point of the origins of these groups. They were founded, sometimes by White people, because the mainstream organizations refused Black membership. Now that these organizations have their own histories and traditions, they are not simply going to disappear just because you want them to. Unlike country clubs, these private organizations do not discriminate on membership applicants. You and I cannot change the past. We can only use the present to help shape the future.



I have no problem whatsoever with private clubs, of all kinds, anywhere.  That's what the freedom of association is all about -- whether it's something as formal membership in clubs or organizations, or as informal as which teacher's classroom you choose to sit in.

The natural consequence of the freedom to associate is also the freedom to disassociate.  People are free to exclude anyone at any time.

The problem is when the government steps in to force people to either exclude (forced segregation) or to include (forced integration).  The problem is not the level of racial diversity in these groups (or in any other voluntary relationship).  The real problem is the use of force to change people's associations, which is always wrong, even though the predominant view (at the present moment) is that it's justified when it comes to race.
 
2013-08-22 12:16:51 PM
I lived in a county in missouri that is as of this year now 65% black ... I think.  People ask me all the time how I survived.  I get a kick.
 
2013-08-22 12:22:00 PM

Phinn: I have no problem whatsoever with private clubs, of all kinds, anywhere.  That's what the freedom of association is all about -- whether it's something as formal membership in clubs or organizations, or as informal as which teacher's classroom you choose to sit in.
The natural consequence of the freedom to associate is also the freedom to disassociate.  People are free to exclude anyone at any time.
The problem is when the government steps in to force people to either exclude (forced segregation) or to include (forced integration).  The problem is not the level of racial diversity in these groups (or in any other voluntary relationship).  The real problem is the use of force to change people's associations, which is always wrong, even though the predominant view (at the present moment) is that it's justified when it comes to race.


I see: Public, paid-for-with-taxes schools exist to further your prejudices.
I haven't seen you in any "intelligent design" threads.
Care to share any thoughts on that with the rest of us?
 
2013-08-22 12:27:50 PM

phrawgh: thenumber5: way from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 375x500]

Guess what else it used to say.


"Come for your court date, stay for the pie?"
 
2013-08-22 12:30:22 PM

ThighsofGlory: phrawgh: thenumber5: way from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 375x500]

Guess what else it used to say.

"Come for your court date, stay for the pie?"


Wait a sec. Wasn't that one of the more infamous "don't let the sun set" Klan towns?
*googles*
Yes. Yes, it was.
 
2013-08-22 12:50:14 PM

Tricky Chicken: Brosephus: Tricky Chicken: As a white male, there are thousands of organizations that I am precluded from joining. Solely because of my race and/or gender.

However, any person that is a member of one of the organizations that I am precluded from joining, may also join any organization that I am allowed to join.

Example: A white male engineer may join the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, but discouraged from joining the National Society of Black Engineers.
A black male engineer may join both.

Being discouraged from joining is NOT the same thing as being denied from joining.

http://www.nsbe.org/Aboutus.aspx

"No person shall be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination in any NSBE program or activity available on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, creed, political belief, age, national origin, linguistic and language difference, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, height, weight, marital or familial status, or disability. "

That comes directly from their website.  That's just as big a myth as the one that White's can't attend HBCUs.

And I'm sure that a white engineer would never be made to feel uncomfortable at meetings.  The policies do not need to be exclusionary.  The name of the organization itself is exclusionary.  The letterhead itself clearly implies that this is an organization of by and for black engineers. The non-exclusion statement from the website is purely there for leagal coverage.  Any white members they may have are just sitting at the Wolworths lunch counter not getting served.


The name of the organization is just that, the name.  If you're spooked by the name before you even realize what the organization is all about, then there is no help for you.  You do nothing more than feed into the mass bigotry hysteria in this country.  There is indeed bigotry expressed in the Black community, but when you ASSUME it before it rears its head, you expose your bigotry more than you'll ever know.  I'd suggest you talk with White members of "Black" organizations before you make such sweeping generalizations.
 
2013-08-22 12:51:55 PM

Lsherm: Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.


It's one thing to point out that racism is everywhere -- and if that's all you're trying to do, then fine -- but I hope that you aren't trying to imply that the degree and overtness of the racism is anywhere near equivalency.

If that's your intent, you can go ahead and pull the other one. This leg's quite long enough, thanks.
 
2013-08-22 12:58:43 PM

Phinn: I have no problem whatsoever with private clubs, of all kinds, anywhere.  That's what the freedom of association is all about -- whether it's something as formal membership in clubs or organizations, or as informal as which teacher's classroom you choose to sit in.

The natural consequence of the freedom to associate is also the freedom to disassociate.  People are free to exclude anyone at any time.


The problem is when the government steps in to force people to either exclude (forced segregation) or to include (forced integration).  The problem is not the level of racial diversity in these groups (or in any other voluntary relationship).  The real problem is the use of force to change people's associations, which is always wrong, even though the predominant view (at the present moment) is that it's justified when it comes to race.

And where did the government step in and create the National Association of Black Engineers?  BET?  The Black Miss USA pageant?  The NAACP?  Those organizations were listed in the original rant.  Those organizations are all PRIVATE groups, not government associated groups.  The only one that resembles a government run group is the CBC.

By your own admission, you don't have a problem with these groups as much as you have with the history of why these groups came into existence.  I stick with my original point that I stated to you and everyone else who read it.  When you purposefully exclude a group from your organization, don't get angry when someone starts a parallel organization catering to the very group you choose to exclude.  If you don't want minorities to join your country club, don't get mad when minorities start a country club that caters exclusively to them.  That has nothing to do with anything being forced by the government.

The things that are forced by the government are the things that are government controlled, operated, and/or funded.  The government cannot discriminate by law, even if that means they have to force integration to avoid the appearance of discrimination.
 
2013-08-22 01:14:15 PM

Lsherm: Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.


I don't care if people in the North are racist. I hold my fellow white Southerns to a much higher bar to achieve. And, pointing out that the North has racists too or African-American organizations have "black" in their titles are all whining little kids' excuses, i.e. "Johnny does it so why can't I? Waaaa." Grow the fark up!


My fellow white Southerns have a great history of keeping Africans enslaved, that even includes starting a bloody civil war to preserve and extend their slavery heritage across our growing Union. When, Thank God Almighty, they lost that war, did they admit they were mistaken, become better Americans in how they treated their former slaves? Of course not. It took over 100 years for the federal government to intervene and end racial segregation "officially." But many pockets still exist in Old Dixie, especially with how the South goes solid Republican, having evolved into the white man party instead of the Party of Lincoln.


So quit making piss poor excuses for white Southerns being racist asshats. They should be setting the example for America in race relations, especially if they insist they are Christians. White Southerns just haven't dug themselves out of their own hatred enough yet, IMHO.
 
2013-08-22 01:29:34 PM
phrawgh

"A black Christian is like a black person with no memory." - Chris Rock

One would thin that even that mental midget would remember Reverend Martin Luther King Jr (republican).
 
2013-08-22 02:11:05 PM

OnlyM3: phrawgh

"A black Christian is like a black person with no memory." - Chris Rock
One would thin that even that mental midget would remember Reverend Martin Luther King Jr (republican).


The one that beat his wife, terrorized his kids and was generally a giant asshole?

What about him?
 
2013-08-22 02:20:30 PM
Human nature the world over shows that people tend to be very tribal and stick with people like them. Whether that's Sioux vs. Apache, Black vs. White, Korean vs. Japanese, whatever. People tend to segregate themselves.

At what point do we translate that into "ZOMG RACIST"? Because forcing comingling is going to achieve a much better outcome than allowing people to figure out how not to be douchebags on their own.
 
2013-08-22 02:34:32 PM

Brosephus: Tricky Chicken: Brosephus: Tricky Chicken: As a white male, there are thousands of organizations that I am precluded from joining. Solely because of my race and/or gender.

However, any person that is a member of one of the organizations that I am precluded from joining, may also join any organization that I am allowed to join.

Example: A white male engineer may join the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, but discouraged from joining the National Society of Black Engineers.
A black male engineer may join both.

Being discouraged from joining is NOT the same thing as being denied from joining.

http://www.nsbe.org/Aboutus.aspx

"No person shall be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination in any NSBE program or activity available on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, creed, political belief, age, national origin, linguistic and language difference, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, height, weight, marital or familial status, or disability. "

That comes directly from their website.  That's just as big a myth as the one that White's can't attend HBCUs.

And I'm sure that a white engineer would never be made to feel uncomfortable at meetings.  The policies do not need to be exclusionary.  The name of the organization itself is exclusionary.  The letterhead itself clearly implies that this is an organization of by and for black engineers. The non-exclusion statement from the website is purely there for leagal coverage.  Any white members they may have are just sitting at the Wolworths lunch counter not getting served.

The name of the organization is just that, the name.  If you're spooked by the name before you even realize what the organization is all about, then there is no help for you.  You do nothing more than feed into the mass bigotry hysteria in this country.  There is indeed bigotry expressed in the Black community, but when you ASSUME it before it rears its head, you expose your bigotry ...


Nice, I point out that by inserting race into the very name of the organization it is exclusionary, and you play the bigot card.  They are inserting race, and I am the bigot.

Very twisted logic you have there.

Jewish people go to synogogues therefore I am an anti-semite
Women go to the ladies room therefore I am a sexist
Rich people can afford to join country clube, I am an elitist
 
2013-08-22 03:15:12 PM

Tricky Chicken: Nice, I point out that by inserting race into the very name of the organization it is exclusionary, and you play the bigot card.  They are inserting race, and I am the bigot.

Very twisted logic you have there.

Jewish people go to synogogues therefore I am an anti-semite
Women go to the ladies room therefore I am a sexist
Rich people can afford to join country clube, I am an elitist


Yes, you are the bigot if you are the one who assumes exclusionary ideals based solely on the name.  If it's so hard for you to face that reality, then so be it.  Unless or until that organization expresses such practices, the one making the assumptions reveal more about themselves than the group appears to do so.  Your logic fails you in those last three sentences as nobody would ever assume you to be an anti-Semite simply for pointing out that Jewish people go to synagogues.  You may also want to include the fact that non-Jewish people attend synagogues as guests of their Jewish friends.  Those other two are so dumb that they need not even be acknowledged.

Using your logic above, I guess judges are sexist by sentencing men and women to segregated prisons.  I'd be ashamed to assert such stuff as that, but that's just me.  Using the word "Black" in an organization's name does not in and of itself make the group exclusionary.  Limiting the memberships and privileges to only Black people makes them exclusionary.  Those two things are not mutually interchangeable.
 
2013-08-22 03:17:24 PM

PainfulItching: Having lived in Alabama, I can state this much.

While walking through a large hospital, two visiting doctors were speaking Spanish to each other (I was about 20 feet behind them). A very very fat woman huffing down the hall towards us heard them and started screaming that they should speak English if they "wanted to stay here."

Another incident. I was going to deliver something to an elderly lady in a rough part of Birmingham. She asked me point blank if I was white. When I told her I was she said I should find someone black to deliver it because she wouldn't want me to get hurt in her neighborhood.

It goes both ways sometimes. I hate that it does, but there it is.


I understand your point but the premise of your two examples is quite different.

One of them is just a douchebag while the other was looking out for your safety.
 
2013-08-22 03:40:24 PM

Brosephus: Tricky Chicken:

Using your logic above, I guess judges are sexist by sentencing men and women to segregated prisons.  I'd be ashamed to assert such stuff as that, but that's just me.  Using the word "Black" in an organization's name does not in and of itself make the group exclusionary.  Limiting the memberships and privileges to only Black people makes them exclusionary.  Those two things are not mutually interchangeable.


No, using the word black in the name focuses attention to how they intend to exclude people. In fact, that would be the purpose for the name of anything. You add more exclusionary terms to point out who the group is for.

People = everybody
National Society = probably a group set up for people in a given nation (not bigoted, just regional)
National Society of Engineers = probably a nation based group for engineers to explore like interests (not bigoted, just wanting to exclude people that don't understand engineering)
National Society of Black Engineers = now they want to narrow it down to Black people if they did not, then why would they need to add the word black?

Almost every group name points out who the group is intended for.
Boy Scouts - are for boys that want to do scouting things
Girl Scouts - are for girls that want to do scouting things
The National Automobile Dealers Association - believe it or not is for automobile dealers
The American Dental Association - is for dentists
The National Association for Left-Handed Golfers - (yes it is real) is for Left-handed golfers

But somehow,

The National Society of Black Engineers - Is not for black engineers?

But since they threw race into their name, I am the bigot.
You are not the bigot for defending a racist stance.
I am the bigot because I notice they focus on race.
You are not the bigot because you support racial focus.
I am the bigot because I notice the word black in the name.

I think you may not understand how much of a bigot you may be.
 
2013-08-22 04:10:10 PM

AirForceVet: Lsherm: Doesn't matter.  The south is still racist, but so is the north.  Pretending otherwise is just delusional.

Whites in the north began moving out of cities once forced integration via busing took hold.  They self-segregated.  So my point stands:  I don't think the results would be any different if you allowed parents in any school district in the country to make the same choice.

I don't care if people in the North are racist. I hold my fellow white Southerns to a much higher bar to achieve. And, pointing out that the North has racists too or African-American organizations have "black" in their titles are all whining little kids' excuses, i.e. "Johnny does it so why can't I? Waaaa." Grow the fark up!


My fellow white Southerns have a great history of keeping Africans enslaved, that even includes starting a bloody civil war to preserve and extend their slavery heritage across our growing Union. When, Thank God Almighty, they lost that war, did they admit they were mistaken, become better Americans in how they treated their former slaves? Of course not. It took over 100 years for the federal government to intervene and end racial segregation "officially." But many pockets still exist in Old Dixie, especially with how the South goes solid Republican, having evolved into the white man party instead of the Party of Lincoln.


So quit making piss poor excuses for white Southerns being racist asshats. They should be setting the example for America in race relations, especially if they insist they are Christians. White Southerns just haven't dug themselves out of their own hatred enough yet, IMHO.


I didn't make excuses for anyone, you just have a reading comprehension problem.  Whites in the north did the exact same thing whites in the south did - they were just less overt about it.

Racism is more overt in the south, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere else.  And the "neener neener" attitude of most northerners (and I'm one of them) gives THEM an excuse to be racist asshats.  Seriously, the south may be overtly racist, but northerners pretend because they aren't overt about it that they can't possibly be racist, and that's bullshiat.
 
2013-08-22 04:54:43 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: I see: Public, paid-for-with-taxes schools exist to further your prejudices.
I haven't seen you in any "intelligent design" threads.
Care to share any thoughts on that with the rest of us?



Paid-for-with-taxes schools exist for the same reason that all paid-for-with-taxes operations exist -- to justify their own existence.  (Yes, it's circular, and therefore a fallacy, but then again, so is the premise of government.)

You haven't seen me in any "intelligent design" threads because I'm intelligent.  All religious opinions are wrong by definition.
 
2013-08-22 05:17:59 PM

Phinn: demaL-demaL-yeH: I see: Public, paid-for-with-taxes schools exist to further your prejudices.
I haven't seen you in any "intelligent design" threads.
Care to share any thoughts on that with the rest of us?

Paid-for-with-taxes schools exist for the same reason that all paid-for-with-taxes operations exist -- to justify their own existence.  (Yes, it's circular, and therefore a fallacy, but then again, so is the premise of government.)

You haven't seen me in any "intelligent design" threads because I'm intelligent.  All religious opinions are wrong by definition.


Oh, you're a political creationist.

RON PAUL!
Now that I have your attention, the reasons we have taxpayer-supported schools include:
1) A literate workforce is more productive.
2) In a representative democracy, literacy tends to lead to informed decisions by the electorate. (This does not hold in the Age of Fox News and media consolidation.) For this reason the Texas Republic Party's official platform includes a plank calling for a ban on schools teaching, and I quote, "critical thinking skills".
3) Citizenship and a common core curriculum makes the military stronger.
4) Public schools act as a counterweight to sectarian teachings.
5) The whole community pays because the whole community benefits.
I could go on, but your eyes are glazing over by now.

RUE PAUL!
Ok, now you can post a poorly-reasoned, semiliterate, ham-fisted rebuttal telling me how government is teh ebil.

/Don't forget to formally thank your teachers for the skills they managed to cra, er, impart to you.
 
2013-08-22 05:34:51 PM

Tricky Chicken: No, using the word black in the name focuses attention to how they intend to exclude people. In fact, that would be the purpose for the name of anything. You add more exclusionary terms to point out who the group is for.

People = everybody
National Society = probably a group set up for people in a given nation (not bigoted, just regional)
National Society of Engineers = probably a nation based group for engineers to explore like interests (not bigoted, just wanting to exclude people that don't understand engineering)
National Society of Black Engineers = now they want to narrow it down to Black people if they did not, then why would they need to add the word black?

Almost every group name points out who the group is intended for.
Boy Scouts - are for boys that want to do scouting things
Girl Scouts - are for girls that want to do scouting things
The National Automobile Dealers Association - believe it or not is for automobile dealers
The American Dental Association - is for dentists
The National Association for Left-Handed Golfers - (yes it is real) is for Left-handed golfers

But somehow,

The National Society of Black Engineers - Is not for black engineers?

But since they threw race into their name, I am the bigot.
You are not the bigot for defending a racist stance.
I am the bigot because I notice they focus on race.
You are not the bigot because you support racial focus.
I am the bigot because I notice the word black in the name.

I think you may not understand how much of a bigot you may be.


Go back to the very first part of your statement to find where your disconnect begins.  "No, using the word black in the name focuses attention to how they intend to exclude people."

You're the one ASSUMING there is an attempt to exclude anyone.  When you begin your entire basis of proof on an assumption, your entire argument falls apart when there is a complete lack of factual evidence.  As long as you've been debating this, you have yet to provide a single piece of evidence to prove any attempted or thought of attempted bias by this group.  You're so fixated on the name of the group that you allow your bias to cloud your thinking to the point where you're almost imaging evidence to back up your thinking.

Then, to assume that I'm a bigot takes the cake.  I grew up in NE Alabama at a time where it was commonplace to get threatened simply because of the color of my skin.  My high school sports teams generally rode under police escort from certain schools.  You assume me to be a bigot because of your illogical conclusion based on false assumptions from the start of your argument.  To call you a bigot is a bit of a stretch on my part, but I can honestly say you are an assumptionist based on your numerous erroneous assumptions in that last post.

Yes, the National Society of Black Engineers is intended for Black engineers.  It is, however, not EXCLUSIVE to Black engineers which is what it would it would need to be for your point to be correct.  The American Dental Association is NOT exclusive to dentists.

http://www.ada.org/1386.aspx

"Membership in the American Dental Association is available to dentists, dental students, dental educators and researchers."

Once you learn the difference in "intended for" and "exclusive to", maybe you'll see the fatal flaw in your logic.  I don't even think you caught your own attempt at equating the two.
 
2013-08-22 06:56:26 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: ThighsofGlory: phrawgh: thenumber5: way from the North East Coast, and West coast, and upper mid west - you're in the South.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 375x500]

Guess what else it used to say.

"Come for your court date, stay for the pie?"

Wait a sec. Wasn't that one of the more infamous "don't let the sun set" Klan towns?
*googles*
Yes. Yes, it was.


ding ding ding - we have a winner!
 
2013-08-22 06:56:28 PM
People obviously haven't read the article.

It is the black parents trying to get their kids in a room with a black teacher.  It has little to do with white kids wanting to be separate.
 
2013-08-22 11:05:07 PM

theflatline: trappedspirit: Wow, the  Troy School District of Alabama is now representing all Southern parents?  Congratulations on demonstrating how much of a bigot you are while pointing out bigots.  Deserves the irony tag for submitter.


actually as someone who lived in Selma, Alabama, the segration for the last decade, is totally african american.


The segration?  Even if you had spelled that correctly, I still cannot parse.
 
2013-08-23 12:40:52 AM

phrawgh: "A black Christian is like a black person with no memory." - Chris Rock


I read that as "money" instead of "memory"
 
2013-08-23 09:06:21 AM

DemaL-demaL-yeH: Oh, you're a political creationist.

RON PAUL!
Now that I have your attention, the reasons we have taxpayer-supported schools include:
1) A literate workforce is more productive.
2) In a representative democracy, literacy tends to lead to informed decisions by the electorate. (This does not hold in the Age of Fox News and media consolidation.) For this reason the Texas Republic Party's official platform includes a plank calling for a ban on schools teaching, and I quote, "critical thinking skills".
3) Citizenship and a common core curriculum makes the military stronger.
4) Public schools act as a counterweight to sectarian teachings.
5) The whole community pays because the whole community benefits.
I could go on, but your eyes are glazing over by now.

RUE PAUL!
Ok, now you can post a poorly-reasoned, semiliterate, ham-fisted rebuttal telling me how government is teh ebil.

/Don't forget to formally thank your teachers for the skills they managed to cra, er, impart to you.



LEV BRONSHTEIN!

You are further proof of the old adage that politics is a strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.

Nothing you have said even refers to an ethical principle, much less proves one.  Your position is, in essence, that him who benefits must pay.  Although forced economic collectivism may be popular with certain demographics and ethnic groups, it is indefensible as an ethical proposition.  The beautification of my house benefits my entire neighborhood, since it enhances the desirability (and thus market price) of every house near me.  That does not entitle me to charge my neighbors for the "benefit" they receive.  If a doughnut shop emits the sweet smell of their delicious pastries, and that odor that is universally beloved by all who smell it, they are not ethically entitled to charge their neighbors for the "benefit."  That idea -- you must pay when I say you benefit -- may be the operative norm in a collectivist rat hole, like a kibbutz, for example, but in the normal world, the obligation to pay is based on the voluntary exchange of rights in property.

/You sound like a state-employed "teacher"
 
2013-08-23 10:09:17 AM

Phinn: DemaL-demaL-yeH: Oh, you're a political creationist.

RON PAUL!
Now that I have your attention, the reasons we have taxpayer-supported schools include:
1) A literate workforce is more productive.
2) In a representative democracy, literacy tends to lead to informed decisions by the electorate. (This does not hold in the Age of Fox News and media consolidation.) For this reason the Texas Republic Party's official platform includes a plank calling for a ban on schools teaching, and I quote, "critical thinking skills".
3) Citizenship and a common core curriculum makes the military stronger.
4) Public schools act as a counterweight to sectarian teachings.
5) The whole community pays because the whole community benefits.
I could go on, but your eyes are glazing over by now.

RUE PAUL!
Ok, now you can post a poorly-reasoned, semiliterate, ham-fisted rebuttal telling me how government is teh ebil.

/Don't forget to formally thank your teachers for the skills they managed to cra, er, impart to you.

LEV BRONSHTEIN!

You are further proof of the old adage that politics is a strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.

Nothing you have said even refers to an ethical principle, much less proves one.  Your position is, in essence, that him who benefits must pay.  Although forced economic collectivism may be popular with certain demographics and ethnic groups, it is indefensible as an ethical proposition.  The beautification of my house benefits my entire neighborhood, since it enhances the desirability (and thus market price) of every house near me.  That does not entitle me to charge my neighbors for the "benefit" they receive.  If a doughnut shop emits the sweet smell of their delicious pastries, and that odor that is universally beloved by all who smell it, they are not ethically entitled to charge their neighbors for the "benefit."  That idea -- you must pay when I say you benefit -- may be the operative norm in a collectivist rat hole, like a kibbutz, for e ...


Poeslaw: Explain the "ethics" of wanting the benefits of civilization without paying the price. You received and continue to receive the benefits of the public, publicly-funded education, court system, infrastructure, etc., etc., etc., that goes with civilization, which is a package deal. Man up, Nancy, and quit whining about taxes. Or repay society for the benefits you've been receiving your entire life and go live alone by your "wits" in the wildereness - the farking vultures and ravens need food, too.
 
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