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(Opposing Views)   In his latest effort to reduce the wow-factor associated with having a "Dr." in front of one's name, Dr. Phil asks: Is it cool to have sex with a drunk chick?   (opposingviews.com) divider line 160
    More: Dumbass, Dr. Phil McGraw, sex crimes, Steubenville  
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4769 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 5:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



160 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-08-21 03:59:49 PM
I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.
 
2013-08-21 04:06:11 PM
I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

If you're one of those types of people, male or female, that are going to really regret doing certain shiat the next morning, then don't get sloppy drunk.
 
2013-08-21 04:07:44 PM
Everyone who's had drunken sex is either a rapist or a rape victim, depending on gender, didn't everyone learn that in freshman orientation?
 
2013-08-21 04:08:36 PM

vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.


Maybe he would've done a little better by saying "drunk person", as the same thing can happen to a guy.

I definitely agree it's not outrage-worthy though. It's asking a question. If he made the statement "It's perfectly ok to have sex with a drunk girl" then rage away.
 
2013-08-21 04:11:29 PM
In other news, 40% of the population of Wisconsin to be charged with rape tomorrow.
 
2013-08-21 04:22:27 PM

Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.


Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.
 
2013-08-21 04:43:09 PM
Most women are quite clear they find it necessary to knock back a few prior to have sex with me.
 
2013-08-21 04:57:40 PM

Theaetetus: Who's said this?


Give them a few minutes. They'll be here.
 
2013-08-21 05:02:15 PM
The work "drunk" means different things to different people, so you have a meaningful discussion you have to define what level of "drunk chick" we're talking about.

Level 1 -- sings to Kelly Clarkson
Level 2  -- "Woohoo!  Vegas!!"
Level 3 -- makes out, sortof, with girlfriend
Level 4 -- "Has anyone seen my phone?"
Level 5 -- "Hold my hair."
Level 6 -- Zzzzzzzzz

The answers to Dr Phil's question are yes, yes, yes, maybe, no, and ew.
 
2013-08-21 05:07:09 PM

Lando Lincoln: Theaetetus: Who's said this?

Give them a few minutes. They'll be here.


Have to wait to sign in on an alt? I understand.

24.media.tumblr.com
feminspire.com
 
2013-08-21 05:09:19 PM

Theaetetus: Have to wait to sign in on an alt? I understand.


Oh, come on now. You really think that nobody thinks this other than me?
 
2013-08-21 05:10:16 PM

Lando Lincoln: Theaetetus: Have to wait to sign in on an alt? I understand.

Oh, come on now. You really think that nobody thinks this other than me?


I'm sure there was that one girl who told you that, we don't know her, she's from Canada.
 
2013-08-21 05:12:14 PM

Theaetetus: I'm sure there was that one girl who told you that, we don't know her, she's from Canada.


Brazil, actually.
 
2013-08-21 05:28:04 PM
FTFA: Rios noted that victims, not rapists, should be the ones with a national platform in order to discuss solutions to tragedies like Steubenville.

It is incredibly important for victims to have such platforms. But a national conversation about alcohol, abuse and consent needs significant impulse from those who are neither victims nor perpetrators as well.
 
2013-08-21 05:36:29 PM
If you listen to Dr. Phil, you'll get what you deserve.
 
2013-08-21 05:37:46 PM
What if you get prior consent?
 
2013-08-21 05:38:05 PM
Methinks she protesteth too much.
 
2013-08-21 05:39:22 PM
The question isn't very nuanced. And this, like every other situation in life, isn't really black and white.

shiat-faced and on the verge of passing out/doesn't know where she is/who you are -- run far, far away.

Two drinks and kind of tipsy, but completely in control and able to enthusiastically consent? Fine, just be damn sure. Check in halfway through. Maybe even get it in writing.

Applies to all genders, imo.
 
2013-08-21 05:40:08 PM
Some of us don't have any other choice.
 
2013-08-21 05:40:27 PM
Is this a trick question?
 
2013-08-21 05:42:44 PM
If I was the one buying you drinks all night, then yes.
 
2013-08-21 05:46:33 PM

the_colors: The question isn't very nuanced. And this, like every other situation in life, isn't really black and white.

shiat-faced and on the verge of passing out/doesn't know where she is/who you are -- run far, far away.

Two drinks and kind of tipsy, but completely in control and able to enthusiastically consent? Fine, just be damn sure. Check in halfway through. Maybe even get it in writing.

Applies to all genders, imo.


This.
 
2013-08-21 05:47:22 PM
Dr. Phil raped Glenn Beck in 1990.
 
2013-08-21 05:49:34 PM
Am I drunk to have sex with a cool chick?

/yes, yes I am
 
2013-08-21 05:50:38 PM
Giggly drunk yes if she agrees. If she comes onto you drunk hell yes. Slurring drunk no. Passed out drunk hell no!
 
2013-08-21 05:51:36 PM

vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.


The good ole feminist argument for equal rights but not responsibilities. Man drunk, consent. Woman drunk, no consent.
 
2013-08-21 05:53:46 PM

Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.


How about the judges and prosecutors when two drunk people have sex together and the guy is charged and/or convicted for rape but the woman is not? I'd think they might be an arguable answer to your question.
 
2013-08-21 05:53:54 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Dr. Phil raped Glenn Beck in 1990.


yeah, but Glenn Beck was asking for it, wearing that dress and getting tipsy...I mean, just what did he think was going to happen at that Tea Party fundraiser acting like a sultry party bro?
 
2013-08-21 05:54:24 PM

MyRandomName: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

The good ole feminist argument for equal rights but not responsibilities. Man drunk, consent. Woman drunk, no consent.


Note, Lando, that the one person who showed up to support your straw argument was actually an anti-feminist.
 
2013-08-21 05:55:24 PM

mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.

How about the judges and prosecutors when two drunk people have sex together and the guy is charged and/or convicted for rape but the woman is not? I'd think they might be an arguable answer to your question.


And as soon as those mythical judges or prosecutors show up in this thread to admit they said that, or you can find an actual quotation from one of them, you'll have a point, Pumpkin.
 
2013-08-21 05:55:42 PM

Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: Theaetetus: Have to wait to sign in on an alt? I understand.

Oh, come on now. You really think that nobody thinks this other than me?

I'm sure there was that one girl who told you that, we don't know her, she's from Canada.


Dr. Phil, for one, seems to think the problem only goes one way.
 
2013-08-21 05:56:50 PM
But how can a mortal man resist the heightened magnetism of a drunken strumpet?

cdn04.cdnwp.thefrisky.com


(p.s.  tonight where all meeting at The Drunk Strumpet)
 
2013-08-21 05:56:54 PM
Were you having sex with her before she got drunk?
 
2013-08-21 05:58:38 PM
She barely fought. She wanted it.
 
2013-08-21 05:58:39 PM

vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.


Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man.

/This question wouldn't get so much outrage.... let alone even get asked at all if you changed chick to man.
 
2013-08-21 06:02:45 PM

Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man..


It's almost like you think you can make that statement without being called out.
 
2013-08-21 06:03:08 PM

Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man.

/This question wouldn't get so much outrage.... let alone even get asked at all if you changed chick to man.


In fairness, I think the onus should be on whoever is doing the penetrating, regardless of gender, considering the basic mechanics of sex. Really, though, if you're in a situation where it's unclear whether consent is granted, you're doing it all kinds of wrong.
 
2013-08-21 06:04:47 PM

vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.


I suspect that most of the upset is because he should have simply said "that's not ok and is in fact rape" rather than presenting it as if it were a debatable subject. Asking a question like this makes it seem like there's room for discussion or "sure, go ahead, man" might actually be a defensible position. He has a pretty big, public platform, and this could be seen as misusing it (or not using it as well as he should be).
 
2013-08-21 06:05:54 PM
Lady, I mean, if you get drunk, oohkaaaaay, and you go to his apartment, right, and you give it up, ok, every which way, on your knees, on your back, the, how do i say this delicately for the viewers at home, ok, the "other" way, i mean, lady, you're more mixed up than a chinese fire drill at the old folks home, ok?  You're like, the bum steer chasin' hisself a gelded mule at the county fair, i mean, lady, do you even get what I'm saying?  I mean, i can put lipstick on a pig but that don't mean nothin' if the cat won't play the fiddle?  You're playin' mumbly-peg and I'm playin' chess, ok?  I mean, do you get what I'm gettin' at?
 
2013-08-21 06:06:49 PM
Imagine if the question had used the word "boy" instead of "girl."

Why is it that we refer to adult women as girls, but the word boy always refers to a child?

I guess we say guys, which goes with girls, when referring to adults.

Boys and girls=children

Guys and girls=adults

Guys and dolls=Fabulous!

Did I get it right?
 
2013-08-21 06:08:33 PM
How else am I going to convince her to let me stick it in her pooper?
 
2013-08-21 06:09:25 PM

Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man..

It's almost like you think you can make that statement without being called out.


When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.
 
2013-08-21 06:10:48 PM

scottydoesntknow: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Maybe he would've done a little better by saying "drunk person", as the same thing can happen to a guy.

I definitely agree it's not outrage-worthy though. It's asking a question. If he made the statement "It's perfectly ok to have sex with a drunk girl" then rage away.


And in fact has. My friend got blindingly drunk one night (ok, several nights, but this one was bad) and ended up having sex with a pretty little brunette. Pretty girl cried rape the next day.

He would have been totally screwed and gone to the clink. You cannot win when the physical evidence says that you had sex with girl crying rape and everyone says she was drunk. Even if you couldn't stand unassisted, you will lose.

Fortunately for my friend, her romantic rival for another guy's affections (and the reason she felt guilty and cried rape) recorded a couple of minutes of her bouncing up and down on him, moaning happily about his 8", blah blah, very much emphasizing the fact that she was an enthusiastic participant.

He pretty much laid there from what I was told.

No, she was never charged. My friend almost went to jail for a decade (at least) and she skated without even a charge being filed against her.
 
2013-08-21 06:11:28 PM
Absolute bullshiat.  There was no context to the question and everyone goes apeshiat.
My girlfriends would always get drunk and want to fark the shiat out of me, and not once did I end up in jail.
SO, yes, it is perfectly OK.

Is it OK to rape a drunk chick you picked up at a frat party.  Contextually speaking, proabably not.

This is the one time I am on Dr. Phil's side.
 
2013-08-21 06:11:38 PM

Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.


by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.
 
2013-08-21 06:12:11 PM
swingerofbirches:

Why is it that we refer to adult women as girls, but the word boy always refers to a child?

I think it's kind of a way to keep women below men socially. Also probably has to do with sex, because men are afraid of unbridled mature female sexuality. They'd rather have an unexperienced hardbodied teen/twentysomething to use as a subhuman farkhole than have someone with a real personality to connect with and share true intimacy because that is frightening for a lot of insecure people. A lot of men are really insecure.
 
2013-08-21 06:13:08 PM

rickythepenguin: Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.


But that's my point.

Woman having consensual sex with drunk male = OK
Man having consensual sex with drunk female = rape.
 
2013-08-21 06:13:41 PM

Warlordtrooper: Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man..

It's almost like you think you can make that statement without being called out.

When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.


When was the last time a woman said what you claimed she said?

See, the way this works is you made a stupid strawman argument. I called you on it. Therefore, you have to put up or shut up. Trying to deflect and make me do your research for you is just stupid.
 
2013-08-21 06:14:54 PM
People still pay attention to Dr. Phil?
 
2013-08-21 06:16:45 PM

inglixthemad: No, she was never charged. My friend almost went to jail for a decade (at least) and she skated without even a charge being filed against her.


Did your friend encourage them to bring charges? And did the prosecutors determine that he was incapacitated? Is the answer to both of those 'no'?

'Cause here's the thing, if your friend was incapacitated, then there's no chance he'd have gone to jail. And if he wasn't incapacitated, then they have no grounds to bring charges against her.
 
2013-08-21 06:17:52 PM
this thread again .jpg
 
2013-08-21 06:18:52 PM
No it's not OK for certain values of drunk.  What those values are and how you are supposed to measure them when you are also drunk is very hard to tell.  so you might as well just not try and figure it out and just not have sex tonight champ.

Also the scale slides depending on how often you've had sex with this person in the past.  My wife likes drunken sex as much as I do, but whats OK for a couple who has been having sex regularly for 10 years isn't really the same thing as a second date.  Really it's pretty obvious for non scumbags where to draw the line.
 
2013-08-21 06:19:20 PM

Warlordtrooper: rickythepenguin: Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.

But that's my point.

Woman having consensual sex with drunkmale = OK
Man having consensual sex with drunk female = rape.


This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"
 
2013-08-21 06:19:34 PM

thatboyoverthere: Giggly drunk yes if she agrees. If she comes onto you drunk hell yes. Slurring drunk no. Passed out drunk hell no!


Pretty much this.

There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?
 
2013-08-21 06:19:40 PM
how "drunk" is "drunk"?

can I still put it in  her mouth?
 
Bou
2013-08-21 06:20:24 PM
What happens if you are both drunk, though? Clearly the issue needs to be addressed, although perhaps not by Dr Phil. While we're on the topic, this letter was sent to a UK podcast:   http://answermethis.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/while-you-were-sleeping/ # more-11344 I think most people would agree that this was rape.
 
2013-08-21 06:20:36 PM

Egoy3k: No it's not OK for certain values of drunk.  What those values are and how you are supposed to measure them when you are also drunk is very hard to tell.  so you might as well just not try and figure it out and just not have sex tonight champ.

Also the scale slides depending on how often you've had sex with this person in the past.  My wife likes drunken sex as much as I do, but whats OK for a couple who has been having sex regularly for 10 years isn't really the same thing as a second date.  Really it's pretty obvious for non scumbags where to draw the line.


Yep. That's also why it's scumbags who keep attempting to blur this line in an attempt to excuse rape.
 
2013-08-21 06:22:58 PM

Theaetetus: Yep. That's also why it's scumbags who keep attempting to blur this line in an attempt to excuse rape.


Maybe I'm going crazy.  Maybe I'm going crazy. That man is not your man.  But you're a good girl.   I know you want it.  I know you want it, but you're a good girl.  You're far from plastic.  Let's talk about gettin' blasted.  What rhymes with hug me?
 
2013-08-21 06:23:16 PM

Theaetetus: And did the prosecutors determine that he was incapacitated?


isn't that kind of the problem? Its pretty easy to determine if the man had intercourse with the woman after the fact, but with alcohol its pretty hard to figure out how much he'd had to drink 48 hours later.
 
2013-08-21 06:24:58 PM

r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?


Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.
 
2013-08-21 06:27:18 PM

tlchwi02: Theaetetus: And did the prosecutors determine that he was incapacitated?

isn't that kind of the problem? Its pretty easy to determine if the man had intercourse with the woman after the fact, but with alcohol its pretty hard to figure out how much he'd had to drink 48 hours later.


They had a video, according to his story. Is he a rag doll, or is he conscious and in control?

But you're right, where there is no video or aren't witnesses to capacity, prosecutors have a tough time showing that the victim was incapacitated... male or female.
 
2013-08-21 06:28:54 PM

Theaetetus: r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?

Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.


True. Purported victims can also use this loose terminology when retroactively turning previous consensual sex into rape once the shame kicks in.
 
2013-08-21 06:31:56 PM
Today I learned -- That fat women at last call in a bar,  rape a lot of men
 
2013-08-21 06:32:23 PM
Evrything I read here appears to indicate the following method should be okay even with doctor phil

find a drunk woman make all the right advances get it locked up then get more drunk than she is and have sex?

No rape, is this correct?
 
2013-08-21 06:36:07 PM
www.jeffpearlman.com

That said, Louisiana Sitar Club has all the win needed for this thread
 
2013-08-21 06:38:27 PM
Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.
 
2013-08-21 06:42:27 PM

Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the

rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman who has had even 1 drink is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.

Clarifying my point
 
2013-08-21 06:44:46 PM

Theaetetus: MyRandomName: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

The good ole feminist argument for equal rights but not responsibilities. Man drunk, consent. Woman drunk, no consent.

Note, Lando, that the one person who showed up to support your straw argument was actually an anti-feminist.


Lol. Are you actually arguing that thereis no disparity in legal cases depending on which sex is drunk? You are a naive one. Stick to misrepresenting patent law.
 
2013-08-21 06:46:47 PM
His producers are obviously trying to find people who think this is OK.  At which point they would have been invited to his show so he could berate them.  Apparently, he wasn't outraged enough for some.
 
2013-08-21 06:47:03 PM
So if this is true than how can anybody be prosecuted for DWI/DUI since they can't give consent?
 
2013-08-21 06:48:04 PM

Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.


what? I know of no feminists who think like this.
 
2013-08-21 06:48:24 PM

Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: rickythepenguin: Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.

But that's my point.

Woman having consensual sex with drunkmale = OK
Man having consensual sex with drunk female = rape.

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"


Lol. Now who has the strawman. A woman does not have to be passed out in vomit to claim she was too intoxicated to consent.
 
2013-08-21 07:11:18 PM
It could be argued that "Dr Phil" is pretty much the "Anti-Dr Spock".
 
2013-08-21 07:12:38 PM
Look, dumbasses... If you live with her, if you've been dating for for a long time and have already had lots of sex with her, then this is a DIFFERENT question.

But if you don't know her, aren't dating her, on the first date, or if you've never had sex with her before and she has never given you prior consent to do it when she was intoxicated? You're a goddamned rapist at the worst, and a pathetic loser at best.

Impaired judgment = No consent. If you need your women to be drunk to get some, then you're pond scum who deserves the ass-pounding you're going to get when one of them finally presses charges.
 
2013-08-21 07:12:52 PM
What a bunch of retarded drama. Some people should get a farking life.

Also, don't you know that women are irresponsible and obviously need a strong man to watch over them when they drink so they don't get taken advantage of? I mean, I don't really believe that, but if I was totally sexist, I would.
 
2013-08-21 07:14:40 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It could be argued that "Dr Phil" is pretty much the "Anti-Dr Spock".


So he's Dr. McCoy, then?

/snark
 
Bou
2013-08-21 07:19:17 PM
Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.
 
2013-08-21 07:22:11 PM
Aw jeez, not this shiat again.
 
2013-08-21 07:23:56 PM

Bou: Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.


Exactly. If you're drunk and you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. It's bullshiat.
 
2013-08-21 07:24:02 PM

ZeroCorpse: Look, dumbasses... If you live with her, if you've been dating for for a long time and have already had lots of sex with her, then this is a DIFFERENT question.

But if you don't know her, aren't dating her, on the first date, or if you've never had sex with her before and she has never given you prior consent to do it when she was intoxicated? You're a goddamned rapist at the worst, and a pathetic loser at best.

Impaired judgment = No consent. If you need your women to be drunk to get some, then you're pond scum who deserves the ass-pounding you're going to get when one of them finally presses charges.



No argument from me.  The thing about the outrage is that it was a perfectly harmless question.  It doesn't ask if it's OK to rape a passed out girl.  It is OK to have sex at the office Christmas party with the receptionist whose 3rd champagne gives her the courage and reduces her inhibition to allow her otherwise shy ass to come on to you.
 
2013-08-21 07:26:24 PM
Cool, yes.

Legal, depends.
 
Bou
2013-08-21 07:32:26 PM
Tigger: If you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. I don't know why you brought being drunk into it, because it has no bearing.
 
2013-08-21 07:37:59 PM
It's ok within reason. Falling down passed out no. But even to the extent she doesn't remember the next morning if she's saying yes I'm not saying no
 
2013-08-21 07:42:48 PM
I having sex with a drunk person is rape then the entire human race is composed of rapists for all history. What do you mean by drunk and what is the relationship between the couple?
 
2013-08-21 07:42:56 PM

Tigger: Bou: Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.

Exactly. If you're drunk and you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. It's bullshiat.


Because all sex for women is exactly like being murdered ??  Have the feminists now ramped up their all sex is rape to all sex is murder now ? I did not get the memo .

Equality - Unless we get our feeling hurt, then you are a rapist
 
2013-08-21 07:43:35 PM
I think "dr" phil looks like a creepy pedophile high school councilor.
 
2013-08-21 07:51:41 PM
I look forward to the completion of our axlotl technology so we can focus on the understanding of the nature of the universe.
 
2013-08-21 07:52:48 PM

cookiefleck: Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.

what? I know of no feminists who think like this.


Google Brown Univ rules of student conduct.  At least it was that way 4-5 yrs ago.
 
2013-08-21 07:55:09 PM
One hundred and forty characters is not enough to ask or answer a subtle and highly volatile thought: film at 11.
i307.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-21 07:55:18 PM
I don't see what the big deal about this is. For one, Dr. Phil merely brought up the issue, didn't take a side on it. Beyond that, it's far too gray an issue to have a simple straight yes or no opinion on, and if you do, you should stop having opinions.

/not that you will, but I can dream
 
Bou
2013-08-21 08:02:27 PM
You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?
 
2013-08-21 08:03:52 PM
I used to work with someone who had formerly worked in some management capacity for "Dr. Phil"... She said that he was a complete tyrannical jerk of a boss and that he had lost his license to practice medicine due to inappropriate relationships with his patients.  So how's that workin' for you?
 
2013-08-21 08:07:20 PM
This is to promote a show, right?  Which will address the topic?  If, on the show, he says sex with a woman incapacitated by alcohol is fine and dandy, then outrage will be appropriate...but not yet.  Right?
 
2013-08-21 08:07:32 PM

Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?


The butler!

/It's always the butler
 
2013-08-21 08:09:18 PM
If having sex with an intoxicated woman is rape, I've done a fair bit of raping in my time. Most of them seemed to enjoy it, and none of them complained.

/rape
 
2013-08-21 08:15:08 PM

Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?


Colonel Mustard was raped in the conservatory with the candlestick.
 
2013-08-21 08:15:12 PM

Ophaelin: I used to work with someone who had formerly worked in some management capacity for "Dr. Phil"... She said that he was a complete tyrannical jerk of a boss and that he had lost his license to practice medicine due to inappropriate relationships with his patients.  So how's that workin' for you?


It's hard to practice medicine with a phd so I'm guessing your friend is lying or some state really needs to tighten their standards.
 
2013-08-21 08:17:40 PM

Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.


In a round about way they are saying that, but that's just a side effect of it always being the man's fault.

Banned on the Run: That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter. Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.


I thought 'rape' had been diluted in definition until it was what a woman said it was when she said it. That means if she regretted her decision to have sex some time later even if she was the one who initiated and perused the sexual encounter it became rape.

I vaguely remember a study which counted a man buying a woman a drink somewhere on a scale of 'rape' as well.

Theaetetus: But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.


Prohibitionists are constantly pushing the level of alcohol that defines being "drunk" lower and lower. Usually through an arbitrary BAC level which defines 'drunk driving' under the law. Even at the current 0.08 BAC it may be difficult to tell the other party is "drunk". At the proposed levels it will be 'had a beer with dinner'.
 
2013-08-21 08:19:14 PM
Don't be that guy.
3.bp.blogspot.com
i.huffpost.com

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.
 
2013-08-21 08:19:50 PM
So to sum up.

She's had a wine cooler and is laughing with friends - probably OK,

But this . . .

shockerdaily.com

Is right out.
 
2013-08-21 08:23:05 PM

scottydoesntknow: Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?

The butler!

/It's always the butler


I know, it sucks when my butler gets raped.  He is all crying and walking funny when he is making my pancakes in the morning and I have to remind him to not get tears in my syrup.

/I got to get a new maid, she gets to drinking and won't leave him alone.
 
2013-08-21 08:24:57 PM

penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.


What if she is yelling "Yes!" in her drunken stupor?
 
2013-08-21 08:28:20 PM

redmid17: Ophaelin: I used to work with someone who had formerly worked in some management capacity for "Dr. Phil"... She said that he was a complete tyrannical jerk of a boss and that he had lost his license to practice medicine due to inappropriate relationships with his patients.  So how's that workin' for you?

It's hard to practice medicine with a phd so I'm guessing your friend is lying or some state really needs to tighten their standards.


My bad, as you point out he's a PhD, not an MD It was apparently in reference to this.  Anyhow she said he basically agreed not to practice psychology if they dropped the investigation of his relationship with his patient...
 
2013-08-21 08:31:03 PM

penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.


Ongoing consent now? Should we have a lawyer present to ask each minute?
 
2013-08-21 08:53:17 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-08-21 08:54:11 PM

J. Frank Parnell: penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.

Ongoing consent now? Should we have a lawyer present to ask each minute?


Ongoing consent solves back for the notion that consent in the beginning of the encounter cannot and should be blanket consent for anything that may happen after. Just because the person consented in the beginning does not make the entire encounter consented to.
 
Bou
2013-08-21 08:54:47 PM
Please don't tell me that if you present a gender-neutral scenario relating to this question, the only answers from Fark are jokes. We are better than this.
 
2013-08-21 08:55:21 PM

HeartlineTwist: J. Frank Parnell: penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.

Ongoing consent now? Should we have a lawyer present to ask each minute?

Ongoing consent solves back for the notion that consent in the beginning of the encounter cannot and should be blanket consent for anything that may happen after. Just because the person consented in the beginning does not make the entire encounter consented to.


Should not**
 
2013-08-21 08:59:07 PM

Bou: Please don't tell me that if you present a gender-neutral scenario relating to this question, the only answers from Fark are jokes. We are better than this.


Your question was just as vague as Dr Phil's. There's no set-up and we don't know any of the details. The things leading up to the sexual encounter are important. Depending on that, the answer could be one or the other or neither or both.
 
2013-08-21 09:01:15 PM

Theaetetus: mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.

How about the judges and prosecutors when two drunk people have sex together and the guy is charged and/or convicted for rape but the woman is not? I'd think they might be an arguable answer to your question.

And as soon as those mythical judges or prosecutors show up in this thread to admit they said that, or you can find an actual quotation from one of them, you'll have a point, Pumpkin.


Guy and girl get shiatfaced together, she says she said no, he says she didn't. They were both drunk, but the guy is the one who gets charged. It happens snoogums.

Not trying to defend scumbags who actually prey on women, mind you, intentionally getting them drunk until they are blacked out and then taking advantage of them. That shiat happens far too often I'm sure. Just saying, if two people are both drinking together, and both legally considered unable to give consent due to cognitive impairment (rather than just one is blacked out) I don't think an actual rape charge should be appropriate unless they're both being charged.

And it does happen to guys... to whit.......

Theaetetus: r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?

Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.



Maybe it's rare, but its actually happened to me. I've had women I'm drinking with on two occasions, who I wanted nothing to do with sexually (for two very different reasons) wait until I was completely, blackout shiatfaced to make their move. The first time I sobered up enough to realize what was going on right in the middle of sex and literally scrambled away and out as fast as I could. The second time the woman just was on top of me making out with me and trying to get my clothes off when I realized what was going on, and I rolled her off of me and staggered away towards where my friends were.

In both cases the women started drinking with me while we were with others, while egging me on to drink more and more, while slowing down themselves so I'd be drunker and then finally separating me from the people we were with once I was good and schnockered. Now that I'm an old guy, yeah that strategy wouldn't work as well, but when I was a young guy, like 18-25, there wasn't enough booze I could drink to make the hydraulics stop working and in one of those two occasions I was literally having intercourse already when I started becoming conscious of my actions again.

So it's not like I can't feel sympathy for women that happens to, I understand it perfectly as I've had it happen to me. I just think - for the grey areas (ie. NOT the cases where one party is clearly out of it and the other one isn't) - it's not helpful to create a double standard where if two people are drinking together one can accuse the other of rape the next day without being charged themselves - based totally on the premise that they were drinking and unable to give consent without giving that same benefit of the doubt to the other party!
 
2013-08-21 09:07:04 PM

J. Frank Parnell: penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.

Ongoing consent now? Should we have a lawyer present to ask each minute?


That poster is amazing. It ups the ante with the "ongoing" consent yet mitigates this by showing that men can be victims too, which is really just lip service since the aggressor/victim dynamic is still clearly painted as masculine/feminine. So yes. Every single time. One way only.
 
2013-08-21 09:08:46 PM

mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.

How about the judges and prosecutors when two drunk people have sex together and the guy is charged and/or convicted for rape but the woman is not? I'd think they might be an arguable answer to your question.

And as soon as those mythical judges or prosecutors show up in this thread to admit they said that, or you can find an actual quotation from one of them, you'll have a point, Pumpkin.

Guy and girl get shiatfaced together, she says she said no, he says she didn't. They were both drunk, but the guy is the one who gets charged. It happens snoogums.

Not trying to defend scumbags who actually prey on women, mind you, intentionally getting them drunk until they are blacked out and then taking advantage of them. That shiat happens far too often I'm sure. Just saying, if two people are both drinking together, and both legally considered unable to give consent due to cognitive impairment (rather than just one is blacked out) I don't think an actual rape charge should be appropriate unless they're both being charged.

And it does happen to guys... to whit.......

Theaetetus: r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?

Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.


Maybe it's rare, but its actually happened to me. I've had women I'm drinking with on two occasions, who I wanted nothing to do with sexually (for two very different reasons) wait until I was completely, blackout shiatfaced to make their move. The first time I sobered up enough to realize what was going on right in the middle of sex and literally scrambled away and out as fast as I could. The second time the woman just was on top of me making out with me and trying to get my clothes off when I realized what was going on, and I rolled her off of me and staggered away towards where my friends were.

In both cases the women started drinking with me while we were with others, while egging me on to drink more and more, while slowing down themselves so I'd be drunker and then finally separating me from the people we were with once I was good and schnockered. Now that I'm an old guy, yeah that strategy wouldn't work as well, but when I was a young guy, like 18-25, there wasn't enough booze I could drink to make the hydraulics stop working and in one of those two occasions I was literally having intercourse already when I started becoming conscious of my actions again.

So it's not like I can't feel sympathy for women that happens to, I understand it perfectly as I've had it happen to me. I just think - for the grey areas (ie. NOT the cases where one party is clearly out of it and the other one isn't) - it's not helpful to create a double standard where if two people are drinking together one can accuse the other of rape the next day without being charged themselves - based totally on the premise that they were drinking and unable to give consent without giving that same benefit of the doubt to the other party!


That link you posted doesn't say what you said it does. He never testified, and she testified that she verbally refused to consent.
 
2013-08-21 09:09:31 PM
Zul the Magnificent: Some of us don't have any other choice.

This is my experience. I suppose it's just the way things are in my part of the south. You always offer to bone them, err, make love to them every time, otherwise it's insulting to them. They can turn you down, but you gotta offer.

Take a girl out night clubbing and then you don't offer to have sex with her? That would be downright insulting to her.
Yeah, if she's sloppy drunk, passed out or throwing up don't do it. Otherwise you have to do your manly duty, or else she'll get her feelings hurt and wonder what she did wrong that you didn't offer.
And have you ever heard the expression "hell has no fury like a woman scorned"?
If she decides that you didn't offer because she wasn't good enough, you have made an enemy by being a gentleman.
Yeah, it's a minefield out there. So you might as well go for it every time.
 
2013-08-21 09:15:27 PM
29.media.tumblr.com

i25.tinypic.com
 
Bou
2013-08-21 09:19:59 PM
Fafai: I specified that there was nothing  remembered leading up to the sexual encounter. The details I deliberately omitted were which (or both) of the people was the man or the woman. Everything else was a situation where you wake up remembering nothing except that you were getting wasted last night. The lack of information is the key.
 
2013-08-21 09:21:04 PM

Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man..

It's almost like you think you can make that statement without being called out.

When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

When was the last time a woman said what you claimed she said?

See, the way this works is you made a stupid strawman argument. I called you on it. Therefore, you have to put up or shut up. Trying to deflect and make me do your research for you is just stupid.


...I don't think that word means what you think it means.

/so stop misusing it.
 
2013-08-21 09:21:41 PM

Fafai: J. Frank Parnell: penthesilea: Don't be that guy.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x295]
[i.huffpost.com image 400x442]

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.

Ongoing consent now? Should we have a lawyer present to ask each minute?

That poster is amazing. It ups the ante with the "ongoing" consent yet mitigates this by showing that men can be victims too, which is really just lip service since the aggressor/victim dynamic is still clearly painted as masculine/feminine. So yes. Every single time. One way only.


Just took a second look and now I actually think the pink shirted guy is the aggressor. Crafty, cutting the image off at the shoulders and not showing the alpha male aggressor's popped collar.
 
2013-08-21 09:26:09 PM

Bou: Fafai: I specified that there was nothing  remembered leading up to the sexual encounter. The details I deliberately omitted were which (or both) of the people was the man or the woman. Everything else was a situation where you wake up remembering nothing except that you were getting wasted last night. The lack of information is the key.


If you don't remember hitting someone over the head with a lamp and farking their unconscious body, and they don't remember it either, is it rape? Yes. I don't care how drunk or high you are.

The details matter. In a case where they aren't known, no-one can answer your question.
 
2013-08-21 09:26:19 PM

Bisu: ...I don't think that word means what you think it means.

/so stop misusing it.


But then how will he feel good about himself?
 
2013-08-21 09:43:31 PM
In situations where both parties are more or less equally drunk and both lack the capacity to consent, has there ever been a case where both were convicted of (simultaneously) raping each other?  ...since, logically, that's' what would happen in a case of mutual-drunkenness.
 
2013-08-21 09:45:38 PM

HeartlineTwist: mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: mongbiohazard: Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.

How about the judges and prosecutors when two drunk people have sex together and the guy is charged and/or convicted for rape but the woman is not? I'd think they might be an arguable answer to your question.

And as soon as those mythical judges or prosecutors show up in this thread to admit they said that, or you can find an actual quotation from one of them, you'll have a point, Pumpkin.

Guy and girl get shiatfaced together, she says she said no, he says she didn't. They were both drunk, but the guy is the one who gets charged. It happens snoogums.

Not trying to defend scumbags who actually prey on women, mind you, intentionally getting them drunk until they are blacked out and then taking advantage of them. That shiat happens far too often I'm sure. Just saying, if two people are both drinking together, and both legally considered unable to give consent due to cognitive impairment (rather than just one is blacked out) I don't think an actual rape charge should be appropriate unless they're both being charged.

And it does happen to guys... to whit.......

Theaetetus: r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?

Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the ...


There were two links. One was to legal experts, prosecutors, police and others speaking in a panel about that very subject which they're calling "grey rape". According to those prosecutors and other experts it apparently does happen. The second was to a story of a couple who were clearly drinking together and both likely equally intoxicated when something was alleged to have happened. The story doesn't even try to give the testimony of the man, but from the facts presented we can see that it was quite possibly not a cut and dry scenario... Both were intoxicated, drinking strong liquor, neither was likely to have been more impaired than the other, she was even on top of him. I would highly suspect the actual transcript of the case wouldn't be so cut and dry as presented.
 
2013-08-21 09:48:10 PM
A girl gets drunk and has sex and the guy goes to jail.

A girl gets drunk and drives she goes to jail.

Why is she held accountable in one situation and not the other?
 
2013-08-21 09:54:42 PM

racefan28: A girl gets drunk and has sex and the guy goes to jail.

A girl gets drunk and drives she goes to jail.

Why is she held accountable in one situation and not the other?


They have to determine that it was rape before the guy goes to jail.
 
2013-08-21 10:05:22 PM

Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.


Just to take these on in proper order, I have worn a fedora since the early 80s (no not a farking hipster, 56 actually), I have had a full beard (and stach) since Sept of 87, (shaved clean for a job interview, got the job and have worn the beard since.) I am no where near what I would call wild man levels and if shot gunning two beer is all it takes to qualify I have no interest in signing up.
 
2013-08-21 10:17:13 PM
Yup, I'm never going to go anywhere near a Fark party.
 
2013-08-21 10:30:30 PM

tallguywithglasseson: In other news, 40% of the population of Wisconsin to be charged with rape tomorrow.


Just remember, we Wisconsinites are PROFESSIONAL drunks. Guess there's a good chance my SO could be charged Friday morning, but I've been forewarned. Friday morning. Saturday morning. Least she could do is buy me breakfast. Or a Bloody Mary or 5....
 
2013-08-21 11:08:00 PM

Theaetetus: Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.

Who's said this?

Bear in mind that the legal definition of intoxicated may be more than your "I shotgunned two beers, because with my fedora and chinbeard, I'm a wild man" level.


Okay, what legal definition of intoxicated are we talking about?  BAC?  Do you take relative BACs of each with the greater losing?
 
2013-08-21 11:11:30 PM
I'm a woman, I've done this and I call it "dumb drunk sex," i.e.,  regrettable, but hardly rape. It made for good times in my 20's, but beyond that it gets rather sad & pathetic for both partners, I believe. If you're in your 40's and beyond and drunken, mutual date rape is the best you both can do...well...it says something about one's ability to initiate and/or maintain any sort of real intimacy.

I wouldn't get the law involved in my dumb drunk sex, as in, "Officer, he made no attempt to give me an orgasm, none whatsover, and didn't even make me breakfast. Therefore, I was raped," because I have a wonderful emotion called "SHAME" instilled in me by my considerate elders.

If both partners are drunk, it's a mutual stupidity/lust thing. As a first-date thing, it doesn't bode well for any long-term relationship unless one or both partners hate themselves completely/have zero standards, or both are habitual drunks who use this as their usual mating ritual. Then, you know, have at it. Have little fetal alcohol syndrome drunken babies while you're at it, too.

If only one partner is inebriated, then, yeah, it's definitely rape because the sober person is taking advantage of the situation as consent was not given. But I don't believe this is dependent upon gender. It could be the female taking advantage of a drunk guy, too, as unlikely as that seems. Or in gay and lesbian relations, the same gender, of course.

So says I...
 
2013-08-21 11:16:24 PM

Banned on the Run: Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman who has had even 1 drink is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.

Clarifying my point


Once you've smothered your point in bullshiat terminology you picked up on a conservative talk show or web site somewhere it really doesn't matter how "clear" it is.
 
2013-08-21 11:27:35 PM
Drunk sex is over-rated. I've had a girl who couldn't get wet when she was drunk, I've had one who couldn't keep in good rhythm, one who I found had peed the bed when I woke up a few hours later. I was drunk every time with these girls, I could still get hard, I could keep a rhythm, and I certainly don't piss the bed when I'm drunk. At least when you're sober you remember every detail of sex too, even if it's the worst sex -- at least you remember it.
 
2013-08-21 11:34:01 PM
FTA:

Rios noted that victims, not rapists, should be the ones with a national platform in order to discuss solutions to tragedies like Steubenville.


Dr. Phil raped somebody?
 
2013-08-21 11:34:18 PM

Mr.Poops: Drunk sex is over-rated. I've had a girl who couldn't get wet when she was drunk, I've had one who couldn't keep in good rhythm, one who I found had peed the bed when I woke up a few hours later. I was drunk every time with these girls, I could still get hard, I could keep a rhythm, and I certainly don't piss the bed when I'm drunk. At least when you're sober you remember every detail of sex too, even if it's the worst sex -- at least you remember it.


One of them might have been me. But I didn't wet the bed, that was my girlfriend's beer that she brought with her and knocked over while she was watching us. So I must've been the dry one...cos I never lose rhythm. Good times, Mr.Poops, good times.
 
2013-08-21 11:37:35 PM

Fafai: swingerofbirches:

Why is it that we refer to adult women as girls, but the word boy always refers to a child?

I think it's kind of a way to keep women below men socially. Also probably has to do with sex, because men are afraid of unbridled mature female sexuality. They'd rather have an unexperienced hardbodied teen/twentysomething to use as a subhuman farkhole than have someone with a real personality to connect with and share true intimacy because that is frightening for a lot of insecure people. A lot of men are really insecure.


Well, that could be true. And I do see that in the context of people saying "my girl" when referring to a subordinate employee.

But I thought about it more and realized that women refer to each other as girls, as well. As in, "Come on girls, let's go have a night on the town."

And then I realize that men do it, as well, with each other, "What do you say boys? Ready to party?" And they also say, "Out with my boys."

This deserves linguistic study . . .
 
2013-08-21 11:44:35 PM
The more important question is:  If a woman is in on acid and claims that she is a cat and you boink her, are you guilty of beastiality.
 
2013-08-22 12:41:24 AM
lolsheaven.com
 
2013-08-22 01:34:07 AM
"Dammit, Phil, you're an asshole, not a doctor."
 
2013-08-22 03:01:22 AM

Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?


The one with the vagina.
 
2013-08-22 08:02:26 AM

swingerofbirches: Fafai: swingerofbirches:

Why is it that we refer to adult women as girls, but the word boy always refers to a child?

I think it's kind of a way to keep women below men socially. Also probably has to do with sex, because men are afraid of unbridled mature female sexuality. They'd rather have an unexperienced hardbodied teen/twentysomething to use as a subhuman farkhole than have someone with a real personality to connect with and share true intimacy because that is frightening for a lot of insecure people. A lot of men are really insecure.

Well, that could be true. And I do see that in the context of people saying "my girl" when referring to a subordinate employee.

But I thought about it more and realized that women refer to each other as girls, as well. As in, "Come on girls, let's go have a night on the town."

And then I realize that men do it, as well, with each other, "What do you say boys? Ready to party?" And they also say, "Out with my boys."

This deserves linguistic study . . .


I see this as people trying to hold on to their youth in a youth-obsessed culture. When people go out with their freinds to party, they want to see themselves as young and cool. It helps them feel better about themselves because "boy's night out!" sounds better than "pushing-50, divorced, bitter, alcoholic, lonely men's night out!"
 
2013-08-22 08:10:23 AM
SO...................


am I supposed to forbid my wife from drinking alcohol before we have sex?????
 
2013-08-22 08:29:30 AM
Why is it so hard for men not to rape people?
 
2013-08-22 08:29:53 AM

Strik3r: SO...................


am I supposed to forbid my wife from drinking alcohol before we have sex?????


That would be sexist. How dare you presume to tell your wife what she can and can't put in her body? The correct thing is to refuse sex with her if she's drunk, not forbid her from drinking (of course then you'd be witholding intimacy and it would ultimately be your fault when she cheats to get it elsewhere).

In all seriousness, I think this whole thing is aimed less at committed monogamous couples (although marital rape is always possible), so I wouldn't worry too much about it if you're confident in knowing where you both stand. Although I'm still getting a kick of this "ongoing consent" thing. Next time I make love to my wife I'm going to pause after each thrust and ensure, by obtaining her verbal consent, that it is still ok to proceed. I expect she will fully appreciate this courtesy and it won't frustrate her at all.
 
2013-08-22 08:39:45 AM

Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

Yet a lot of women think its fine to have sex with a drunk man..

It's almost like you think you can make that statement without being called out.


Thank goodness the champion of condescension is here to let us all know what we should REALLY think... You're quite the tool bag, aren't you. I'm sure your non-internet friends aren't suck of your act either.
 
2013-08-22 08:41:08 AM
LoL! Phone type failure. Let's all watch as he dissects my typos, unwittingly confirming everything I think about his self-righteous douchebaggery.
 
2013-08-22 08:50:58 AM

Fafai: Strik3r: SO...................


am I supposed to forbid my wife from drinking alcohol before we have sex?????

That would be sexist. How dare you presume to tell your wife what she can and can't put in her body? The correct thing is to refuse sex with her if she's drunk, not forbid her from drinking (of course then you'd be witholding intimacy and it would ultimately be your fault when she cheats to get it elsewhere).

In all seriousness, I think this whole thing is aimed less at committed monogamous couples (although marital rape is always possible), so I wouldn't worry too much about it if you're confident in knowing where you both stand. Although I'm still getting a kick of this "ongoing consent" thing. Next time I make love to my wife I'm going to pause after each thrust and ensure, by obtaining her verbal consent, that it is still ok to proceed. I expect she will fully appreciate this courtesy and it won't frustrate her at all.


nice.  .... and ya, I agree  (I like when she begs for it)

The sad thing is this:     If you are drunk, YOU are the ONLY one to blame (unless someone has been slipping you drinks.... right).

I have a novel idea...... How about the person who made a conscious decision to drink alcohol and is drunk takes FULL responsibilty for ALL the poor decisions made while in this state? Alcohol cannot be allowed to be used as the "Get Out of Jail FREE" card.
 
2013-08-22 08:53:23 AM
So a drunk girl is incapable of consenting to sex but is completely capable of deciding to drive her drunk ass home for a DUI. Got it. Thanks.
 
2013-08-22 08:59:50 AM
He has a talk show.
He asked a question.to get material to talk about a certain subject.
He gave no opinion..
You may now untwist your panties, you reactionary twats.
 
2013-08-22 09:39:22 AM
I'm just gonna say this. I watch Dr. Phil and I have seen him save women from domestic violence situations. I have seen him use his resources to help parents find the help they need to get their troubled teenagers through crises. I have seen him use his resources to help addicts get off drugs and get their lives back together. I don't know why people put him and his show down but I have seen him do a lot of good for a lot of people. If you haven't watched the show enough to know this you need to keep your opinions to yourself. You don't know what you are talking about.
 
2013-08-22 10:07:42 AM

Bou: Tigger: If you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. I don't know why you brought being drunk into it, because it has no bearing.


If you are raped it's always the rapists fault. I don't know why you brought being drunk into it, because it has no bearing.

Do you see why your point is stupid yet?
 
2013-08-22 10:09:06 AM

waltb555: I'm just gonna say this. I watch Dr. Phil and I have seen him save women from domestic violence situations. I have seen him use his resources to help parents find the help they need to get their troubled teenagers through crises. I have seen him use his resources to help addicts get off drugs and get their lives back together. I don't know why people put him and his show down but I have seen him do a lot of good for a lot of people. If you haven't watched the show enough to know this you need to keep your opinions to yourself. You don't know what you are talking about.


Lots of ordinary people mange to do those things all the time without being on TV.  He uses flawed methodology and spreads bad information regularly and many people who need to speak to actual doctors or social workers watch his drivel and decide not to seek the help of actual professionals. What 'Dr.' Phil does is in the interests of 'Dr.' Phil and nobody else.
 
2013-08-22 12:10:53 PM
Egoy3k:  I would love to have you give me ONE example of Dr. Phil ever doing any of the things you mention in your reply. I have been watching his show for several years and I have NEVER seen him recommend that someone not seek professional help, in fact, he often refers his guests to professionals and pays for it himself. I don't think you are getting your information from watching the show but from other peoples opinions. Give me one example of flawed methodology or bad information you have witnessed on the show. I seriously doubt you can do it because I think you have never watched the show.
 
2013-08-22 12:22:06 PM

waltb555: Egoy3k:  I would love to have you give me ONE example of Dr. Phil ever doing any of the things you mention in your reply. I have been watching his show for several years and I have NEVER seen him recommend that someone not seek professional help, in fact, he often refers his guests to professionals and pays for it himself. I don't think you are getting your information from watching the show but from other peoples opinions. Give me one example of flawed methodology or bad information you have witnessed on the show. I seriously doubt you can do it because I think you have never watched the show.


How about telling parents how to stop their children from growing up to be gay?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-inc/201102/dr-phils-very-ba d- advice

There is your one example.
 
2013-08-22 12:23:15 PM

Mr.Poops: At least when you're sober you remember every detail of sex too, even if it's the worst sex -- at least you remember it.


Which is a good argument FOR drunken sex.
 
2013-08-22 12:27:02 PM

Nurglitch: Why is it so hard for men not to rape people?


Well...it IS a lot of fun. It's a guilty pleasure for guys. Like laughing at Garfield comics.
 
2013-08-22 01:03:38 PM
"... on the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked - a question that must never be answered...."

assets.nydailynews.com
 
2013-08-22 02:12:57 PM
Egoy3k : OK, I'll give you that one. I find that advice rather disturbing. I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle. He gives good advice and sometimes bad advice. I'm not perfect either. But I have seen him do a lot of good as well. So I'll watch his show and you won't. 'Nuff said.
 
2013-08-22 03:12:50 PM

OtherLittleGuy: "... on the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked - a question that must never be answered...."

[assets.nydailynews.com image 320x175]


Are you trying to say that the Doctor's real name is Phil??
 
2013-08-22 03:17:49 PM

waltb555: Egoy3k : OK, I'll give you that one. I find that advice rather disturbing. I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle. He gives good advice and sometimes bad advice. I'm not perfect either. But I have seen him do a lot of good as well. So I'll watch his show and you won't. 'Nuff said.


The guy is shady as fark and no better than Maury or Jerry Springer.

Dr. Phil is anti-breastfeeding.  (He's covered the issue a few times.  He also thinks of breastfeeding as sexual.  He pushes the idea that breastfeeding is weird and unnatural.  )
When he did an episode about breastfeeding he picked a 'normal' mom and family to represent the formula side.  For the pro-breastfeeding side he picked a woman who was still breastfeeding her 7 year old and 5 year old.  Not much of a debate if you reject having knowledgeable breastfeeding advocates and instead cherry-pick a 'freak'.
Dr. ORDON: I know--I know I was never breast-fed. Maybe that's why I went into breast surgery. I...
Dr. PHIL: Yeah.
Dr. MASTERSON: My...
Dr. PHIL : Well, I wasn't either, and I'm glad now.

(Formula vs. Milk, do what you want.  I don't care.  I take issue with Dr. Phil stacking the deck heavily in favor of one side)

Dr. Phil did something similar when he did a show on Public School vs. Homeschool.  He cherry-picked the weirdest 'radical unschooler' homeschool family he could find.  I know this because there were _a lot_ of nice, normal homeschooling families that volunteered to be the guest, but were rejected for lack of drama potential.  Same song & dance as the breastfeeding episode.

Dr. Phil doesn't help or inform.  It's a sideshow.
 
2013-08-22 04:02:53 PM
The reason for all the outrage is that all the outraged people have no sensible answer to the question. Their outrage tries (and often succeeds) in stifling the question.
 
2013-08-22 04:04:36 PM
OMFG you people are all missing the point!  Discussion of this should not be allowed, period!

that's how you make a problem go away.
 
2013-08-22 05:45:56 PM

OtherLittleGuy: "... on the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked - a question that must never be answered...."

[assets.nydailynews.com image 320x175]

And then Silence will fall...
 
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