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(Opposing Views)   In his latest effort to reduce the wow-factor associated with having a "Dr." in front of one's name, Dr. Phil asks: Is it cool to have sex with a drunk chick?   (opposingviews.com) divider line 160
    More: Dumbass, Dr. Phil McGraw, sex crimes, Steubenville  
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4767 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2013 at 5:34 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-08-21 06:17:52 PM
this thread again .jpg
 
2013-08-21 06:18:52 PM
No it's not OK for certain values of drunk.  What those values are and how you are supposed to measure them when you are also drunk is very hard to tell.  so you might as well just not try and figure it out and just not have sex tonight champ.

Also the scale slides depending on how often you've had sex with this person in the past.  My wife likes drunken sex as much as I do, but whats OK for a couple who has been having sex regularly for 10 years isn't really the same thing as a second date.  Really it's pretty obvious for non scumbags where to draw the line.
 
2013-08-21 06:19:20 PM

Warlordtrooper: rickythepenguin: Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.

But that's my point.

Woman having consensual sex with drunkmale = OK
Man having consensual sex with drunk female = rape.


This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"
 
2013-08-21 06:19:34 PM

thatboyoverthere: Giggly drunk yes if she agrees. If she comes onto you drunk hell yes. Slurring drunk no. Passed out drunk hell no!


Pretty much this.

There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?
 
2013-08-21 06:19:40 PM
how "drunk" is "drunk"?

can I still put it in  her mouth?
 
Bou
2013-08-21 06:20:24 PM
What happens if you are both drunk, though? Clearly the issue needs to be addressed, although perhaps not by Dr Phil. While we're on the topic, this letter was sent to a UK podcast:   http://answermethis.wordpress.com/2013/08/20/while-you-were-sleeping/ # more-11344 I think most people would agree that this was rape.
 
2013-08-21 06:20:36 PM

Egoy3k: No it's not OK for certain values of drunk.  What those values are and how you are supposed to measure them when you are also drunk is very hard to tell.  so you might as well just not try and figure it out and just not have sex tonight champ.

Also the scale slides depending on how often you've had sex with this person in the past.  My wife likes drunken sex as much as I do, but whats OK for a couple who has been having sex regularly for 10 years isn't really the same thing as a second date.  Really it's pretty obvious for non scumbags where to draw the line.


Yep. That's also why it's scumbags who keep attempting to blur this line in an attempt to excuse rape.
 
2013-08-21 06:22:58 PM

Theaetetus: Yep. That's also why it's scumbags who keep attempting to blur this line in an attempt to excuse rape.


Maybe I'm going crazy.  Maybe I'm going crazy. That man is not your man.  But you're a good girl.   I know you want it.  I know you want it, but you're a good girl.  You're far from plastic.  Let's talk about gettin' blasted.  What rhymes with hug me?
 
2013-08-21 06:23:16 PM

Theaetetus: And did the prosecutors determine that he was incapacitated?


isn't that kind of the problem? Its pretty easy to determine if the man had intercourse with the woman after the fact, but with alcohol its pretty hard to figure out how much he'd had to drink 48 hours later.
 
2013-08-21 06:24:58 PM

r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?


Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.
 
2013-08-21 06:27:18 PM

tlchwi02: Theaetetus: And did the prosecutors determine that he was incapacitated?

isn't that kind of the problem? Its pretty easy to determine if the man had intercourse with the woman after the fact, but with alcohol its pretty hard to figure out how much he'd had to drink 48 hours later.


They had a video, according to his story. Is he a rag doll, or is he conscious and in control?

But you're right, where there is no video or aren't witnesses to capacity, prosecutors have a tough time showing that the victim was incapacitated... male or female.
 
2013-08-21 06:28:54 PM

Theaetetus: r1niceboy: There's also the fact that it's rarely one party is drunk, and the other sober. Both are often past the point where they can no longer make rational decisions. Where do you draw the line?

Actually, that's quite common. See, e.g., the Roethlisberger bathroom incident. Or look up any of the research on Predator Theory or the interviews with admitted rapists - they specifically target victims who are incapacitated, while remaining sober or nearly sober.
In fact, it's quite rare for a situation to occur in which both parties are incapacitated - as Pam says, "you're pushing rope." Although, more likely, you're both passed out.

But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.


True. Purported victims can also use this loose terminology when retroactively turning previous consensual sex into rape once the shame kicks in.
 
2013-08-21 06:31:56 PM
Today I learned -- That fat women at last call in a bar,  rape a lot of men
 
2013-08-21 06:32:23 PM
Evrything I read here appears to indicate the following method should be okay even with doctor phil

find a drunk woman make all the right advances get it locked up then get more drunk than she is and have sex?

No rape, is this correct?
 
2013-08-21 06:36:07 PM
www.jeffpearlman.com

That said, Louisiana Sitar Club has all the win needed for this thread
 
2013-08-21 06:38:27 PM
Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.
 
2013-08-21 06:42:27 PM

Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the

rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman who has had even 1 drink is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.

Clarifying my point
 
2013-08-21 06:44:46 PM

Theaetetus: MyRandomName: vernonFL: I don't understand the outrage, obviously a lot of men don't understand that it is NOT okay and that it is in fact rape and that they can be arrested, charged prosecuted and convicted.

The good ole feminist argument for equal rights but not responsibilities. Man drunk, consent. Woman drunk, no consent.

Note, Lando, that the one person who showed up to support your straw argument was actually an anti-feminist.


Lol. Are you actually arguing that thereis no disparity in legal cases depending on which sex is drunk? You are a naive one. Stick to misrepresenting patent law.
 
2013-08-21 06:46:47 PM
His producers are obviously trying to find people who think this is OK.  At which point they would have been invited to his show so he could berate them.  Apparently, he wasn't outraged enough for some.
 
2013-08-21 06:47:03 PM
So if this is true than how can anybody be prosecuted for DWI/DUI since they can't give consent?
 
2013-08-21 06:48:04 PM

Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.


what? I know of no feminists who think like this.
 
2013-08-21 06:48:24 PM

Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: rickythepenguin: Warlordtrooper: When was the last time a woman was charged with rape for having sex with a drunk guy.... let alone convicted.

by that definition, i think my wife raped me the other day.

she did things, bro.  she did things.  i don't want to talk about it......she did things.  bad things.

But that's my point.

Woman having consensual sex with drunkmale = OK
Man having consensual sex with drunk female = rape.

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"


Lol. Now who has the strawman. A woman does not have to be passed out in vomit to claim she was too intoxicated to consent.
 
2013-08-21 07:11:18 PM
It could be argued that "Dr Phil" is pretty much the "Anti-Dr Spock".
 
2013-08-21 07:12:38 PM
Look, dumbasses... If you live with her, if you've been dating for for a long time and have already had lots of sex with her, then this is a DIFFERENT question.

But if you don't know her, aren't dating her, on the first date, or if you've never had sex with her before and she has never given you prior consent to do it when she was intoxicated? You're a goddamned rapist at the worst, and a pathetic loser at best.

Impaired judgment = No consent. If you need your women to be drunk to get some, then you're pond scum who deserves the ass-pounding you're going to get when one of them finally presses charges.
 
2013-08-21 07:12:52 PM
What a bunch of retarded drama. Some people should get a farking life.

Also, don't you know that women are irresponsible and obviously need a strong man to watch over them when they drink so they don't get taken advantage of? I mean, I don't really believe that, but if I was totally sexist, I would.
 
2013-08-21 07:14:40 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It could be argued that "Dr Phil" is pretty much the "Anti-Dr Spock".


So he's Dr. McCoy, then?

/snark
 
Bou
2013-08-21 07:19:17 PM
Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.
 
2013-08-21 07:22:11 PM
Aw jeez, not this shiat again.
 
2013-08-21 07:23:56 PM

Bou: Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.


Exactly. If you're drunk and you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. It's bullshiat.
 
2013-08-21 07:24:02 PM

ZeroCorpse: Look, dumbasses... If you live with her, if you've been dating for for a long time and have already had lots of sex with her, then this is a DIFFERENT question.

But if you don't know her, aren't dating her, on the first date, or if you've never had sex with her before and she has never given you prior consent to do it when she was intoxicated? You're a goddamned rapist at the worst, and a pathetic loser at best.

Impaired judgment = No consent. If you need your women to be drunk to get some, then you're pond scum who deserves the ass-pounding you're going to get when one of them finally presses charges.



No argument from me.  The thing about the outrage is that it was a perfectly harmless question.  It doesn't ask if it's OK to rape a passed out girl.  It is OK to have sex at the office Christmas party with the receptionist whose 3rd champagne gives her the courage and reduces her inhibition to allow her otherwise shy ass to come on to you.
 
2013-08-21 07:26:24 PM
Cool, yes.

Legal, depends.
 
Bou
2013-08-21 07:32:26 PM
Tigger: If you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. I don't know why you brought being drunk into it, because it has no bearing.
 
2013-08-21 07:37:59 PM
It's ok within reason. Falling down passed out no. But even to the extent she doesn't remember the next morning if she's saying yes I'm not saying no
 
2013-08-21 07:42:48 PM
I having sex with a drunk person is rape then the entire human race is composed of rapists for all history. What do you mean by drunk and what is the relationship between the couple?
 
2013-08-21 07:42:56 PM

Tigger: Bou: Can anyone think of an activity other than sex where you are not held responsible for your actions because you are drunk? Throw up in a taxi? Your fault. Drive? Your fault. Text your mum saying you always hated her? Your fault. Rob a liquor store? Your fault. If someone has sex with you when you are passed out from alcohol, it's rape, the same as if you were roofied or smacked on the head with a bat. If you have sex with someone who you would never have shagged if you had been sober, then your judgement was impaired because YOU impaired it!  Accept the consequences and drink less next time.

Exactly. If you're drunk and you are murdered it's always the murderers fault. It's bullshiat.


Because all sex for women is exactly like being murdered ??  Have the feminists now ramped up their all sex is rape to all sex is murder now ? I did not get the memo .

Equality - Unless we get our feeling hurt, then you are a rapist
 
2013-08-21 07:43:35 PM
I think "dr" phil looks like a creepy pedophile high school councilor.
 
2013-08-21 07:51:41 PM
I look forward to the completion of our axlotl technology so we can focus on the understanding of the nature of the universe.
 
2013-08-21 07:52:48 PM

cookiefleck: Banned on the Run: Theaetetus:

This is a nice little lesson in how some people use words to mean different things, and why the law attempts to avoid such ambiguities. The word you're looking for is "incapacitated". Not "gosh, I had a couple beers and was hungover the next day, so that's legally the exact same as a chick who's passed out in her own vomit, right?"

That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter.  Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.

what? I know of no feminists who think like this.


Google Brown Univ rules of student conduct.  At least it was that way 4-5 yrs ago.
 
2013-08-21 07:55:09 PM
One hundred and forty characters is not enough to ask or answer a subtle and highly volatile thought: film at 11.
i307.photobucket.com
 
2013-08-21 07:55:18 PM
I don't see what the big deal about this is. For one, Dr. Phil merely brought up the issue, didn't take a side on it. Beyond that, it's far too gray an issue to have a simple straight yes or no opinion on, and if you do, you should stop having opinions.

/not that you will, but I can dream
 
Bou
2013-08-21 08:02:27 PM
You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?
 
2013-08-21 08:03:52 PM
I used to work with someone who had formerly worked in some management capacity for "Dr. Phil"... She said that he was a complete tyrannical jerk of a boss and that he had lost his license to practice medicine due to inappropriate relationships with his patients.  So how's that workin' for you?
 
2013-08-21 08:07:20 PM
This is to promote a show, right?  Which will address the topic?  If, on the show, he says sex with a woman incapacitated by alcohol is fine and dandy, then outrage will be appropriate...but not yet.  Right?
 
2013-08-21 08:07:32 PM

Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?


The butler!

/It's always the butler
 
2013-08-21 08:09:18 PM
If having sex with an intoxicated woman is rape, I've done a fair bit of raping in my time. Most of them seemed to enjoy it, and none of them complained.

/rape
 
2013-08-21 08:15:08 PM

Bou: You wake up. You remember drinking heavily in the club last night, but after that, a blank. Next to you is another person who you don't recognise. It's clear you have had sex. When you sit up, the other person wakes and says "Oh god, my head, Who are you?". This person is clearly surprised but not angry, in fact seems just embarrassed.  You are in a relationship and your partner is likely to find out. Who got raped last night?


Colonel Mustard was raped in the conservatory with the candlestick.
 
2013-08-21 08:15:12 PM

Ophaelin: I used to work with someone who had formerly worked in some management capacity for "Dr. Phil"... She said that he was a complete tyrannical jerk of a boss and that he had lost his license to practice medicine due to inappropriate relationships with his patients.  So how's that workin' for you?


It's hard to practice medicine with a phd so I'm guessing your friend is lying or some state really needs to tighten their standards.
 
2013-08-21 08:17:40 PM

Lando Lincoln: I've had sex with my ex when I was drunk. Never once did I call the cops on her the next morning. I believe in equality. If you say that women should not be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated guys but guys should be prosecuted for having sex with intoxicated girls, then you're saying that men are superior and can stay in control of themselves even when intoxicated whereas women are inferior and cannot.


In a round about way they are saying that, but that's just a side effect of it always being the man's fault.

Banned on the Run: That's all well and good, but the feminist/wymyn's studies brigade has decreed that any amount of alcohol in a womyn means she can't give legal consent even if she verbally does so at the time of the rape sexual encounter. Their position is that a drunk woman is the same as a 12 year old in that they both lack capacity for consent.


I thought 'rape' had been diluted in definition until it was what a woman said it was when she said it. That means if she regretted her decision to have sex some time later even if she was the one who initiated and perused the sexual encounter it became rape.

I vaguely remember a study which counted a man buying a woman a drink somewhere on a scale of 'rape' as well.

Theaetetus: But this highlights a distinction between "incapacitated", and "drunk". The former is related to your capacity to consent, and is kinda the point. The latter is an ambiguous term encompassing everything from tipsy to blacked out to passed out to on the way to the ER. And the aforementioned scumbags will use the latter because they can imply that a girl was only tipsy while she was actually passed out.


Prohibitionists are constantly pushing the level of alcohol that defines being "drunk" lower and lower. Usually through an arbitrary BAC level which defines 'drunk driving' under the law. Even at the current 0.08 BAC it may be difficult to tell the other party is "drunk". At the proposed levels it will be 'had a beer with dinner'.
 
2013-08-21 08:19:14 PM
Don't be that guy.
3.bp.blogspot.com
i.huffpost.com

I'd err on the side of caution on this issue.  If in doubt, get their phone number and call 'em when they're sober.
 
2013-08-21 08:19:50 PM
So to sum up.

She's had a wine cooler and is laughing with friends - probably OK,

But this . . .

shockerdaily.com

Is right out.
 
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